Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Perkilator]

Does Neptune counts as a "surprise" character?

Well, given how much you never shut up about Neptune, I wouldn't be surprised if you got in and you somehow weren't surprised.

 

[fogbadge]

once again i feel the smash fans are putting far more thought into something than sakurai ever did

 

[Aligo]

once again i feel the smash fans are putting far more thought into something than sakurai ever did

That is totally because the majority of his efforts were used up preventing the addition of any modern Kirby content and browsing the popular tab of shared content stage builder. My aunt's seagull who works at Nintendo told me this.

 

[Oracle Link]

I made a Skin / Colour Template Thread so if you want to make your own Smash Alt Colour Templates go here:
Smash Colours/ Alts

 

[Opossum]

People act like something can't be both retro and a surprise.

Never forget that the Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt amiibo release was officially billed as the Retro 3 Pack. At least from a marketing standpoint, the term has been officially used to refer to more than just the Ice Climbers. Nintendo is more than obviously aware of the fan perception toward these types of characters.

Words have meaning, even colloquially. In terms of Smash, folks like Simon, Banjo, and Pac-Man absolutely do not fit the retro label any more than Mario or Samus do. As far as the Smash definition is concerned, you didn't need to just exist back in the 80's-and-maybe-early-90's. You need to have only existed then. The Ice Climbers are that. Pit, outside of ports, was that before Uprising. The three members of the self-titled Retro 3 Pack were that.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Another thing I want to point out is that when Sakurai was picking the Ice Climbers for Melee, he was picking a specific retro character in that case, namely NES retro character. That doesn't mean he was intending to pick only one retro character for that game period. Mr. Game & Watch is undeniable a retro character. He just wasn't an NES retro character, so obviously he wasn't part of that specific discussion.

 

[Diddy Kong]

That doesn't take away Ice Climbers are weird choices in a Smash game that didn't yet have Diddy, Wario, Dedede, Charizard and the like. NES retro rep is a cute idea of course, but the fundamental characters where ignored for crazy gimmick characters as ICs, G&W and Sheik in Melee.

 

[fogbadge]

That doesn't take away Ice Climbers are weird choices in a Smash game that didn't yet have Diddy, Wario, Dedede, Charizard and the like. NES retro rep is a cute idea of course, but the fundamental characters where ignored for crazy gimmick characters as ICs, G&W and Sheik in Melee.

In fairness G&W does have a huge legacy

 

[Megadoomer]

That doesn't take away Ice Climbers are weird choices in a Smash game that didn't yet have Diddy, Wario, Dedede, Charizard and the like. NES retro rep is a cute idea of course, but the fundamental characters where ignored for crazy gimmick characters as ICs, G&W and Sheik in Melee.

Maybe they wanted to represent a wider variety of Nintendo games? Without Ice Climbers, the only new series in Melee were Fire Emblem (a then-Japan-exclusive series that they apparently considered removing for the releases outside of Japan, from what I recall) and Game & Watch. I guess they wanted to bring back a relatively unknown old-school title that would allow for an interesting gameplay gimmick.

A bit of a shame that they didn't go with Punch-Out, though at least it meant that we got Mac's Wii-era redesign as opposed to something like this:

(the one on the left is Little Mac's design from Fight Night Round 2 on the Gamecube, which used the Super Punch-Out design to an arguably horrifying effect)

Admittedly, Ultimate didn't have many new first party series either (it was Splatoon and, through DLC, ARMS), but it made up for that with "Everyone Is Here" and tons of new third party franchises (Banjo-Kazooie, Tekken, Persona, Dragon Quest, Kingdom Hearts, King of Fighters/Fatal Fury, Castlevania, Minecraft)

 

[HyperSomari64]

the only new series in Melee were Fire Emblem (a then-Japan-exclusive series that they apparently considered removing for the releases outside of Japan, from what I recall)

If Marth and Roy got replaced in the western release. What characters could replace them? And what changes canbe on the Melee competitive scene?

 

[Opossum]

If Marth and Roy got replaced in the western release. What characters could replace them? And what changes canbe on the Melee competitive scene?

They would have been removed, not replaced. The west would have just gotten two fewer characters, not replacements.

 

[HyperSomari64]

They would have been removed, not replaced. The west would have just gotten two fewer characters, not replacements.

Aw man! if Melee got a greater time development, i wish their replacements could be from the Western games made by Nintendo like StarTropics or UniRacers.

 

[Perkilator]

Going back to Melee, if had more time, I'd at the very least add Wario and Diddy Kong.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Going back to Melee, if had more time, I'd at the very least add Wario and Diddy Kong.

Hey, at least the Akaneia Build exists. Not sure if Wario is there?

 

[Perkilator]

Hey, at least the Akaneia Build exists. Not sure if Wario is there?

Wario was a character Sakurai strongly considered, at the very least.

 

[fogbadge]

Aw man! if Melee got a greater time development, i wish their replacements could be from the Western games made by Nintendo like StarTropics or UniRacers.

well no cause the courts forbade them from using uniracers ever again

 

[chocolatejr9]

Aw man! if Melee got a greater time development, i wish their replacements could be from the Western games made by Nintendo like StarTropics or UniRacers.

Not to rain on your parade, but even if it did have a longer development time, would they really replace Marth and Roy with characters from StarTropics and UniRacers? Those guys would require completely different models and animations from the rest of the roster, and that's ignoring the fact that they'd probably wanna just use simple reskins for Marth and Roy and just go with somebody who'd fit those models without looking awkward.

 

[HyperSomari64]

simple reskins for Marth and Roy

Someone name two characters that can fill the "Marth and Roy re-skins for SSBM's Western release if it ot a longer development time" criteria.

 

[SPEN18]

Never forget that the Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt amiibo release was officially billed as the Retro 3 Pack. At least from a marketing standpoint, the term has been officially used to refer to more than just the Ice Climbers. Nintendo is more than obviously aware of the fan perception toward these types of characters.

The argument was about the circumstances under which these characters were chosen by Sakurai, and the scope of what was considered for those characters' respective slots (i.e. the relative weight that the surprise factor and the retro factor were given in choosing them); I don't think the marketing team necessarily gives much answer to that.

But, yes, the marketing plays into what was said about how, to the casual eye, characters like DH and such are obviously viewed as characteristically retro picks (and now you can extend that view to Nintendo staff as well). And, practically, Sakurai has always seemingly made room for these sorts of characters on the roster, so whether or not there is an earmarked slot for them exactly like the IC spot in Melee, they will likely always be in the running as potential newcomers (and I still don't think what happened with PP in Ult is enough to rule that out).

 

[Arcanir]

The argument was about the circumstances under which these characters were chosen by Sakurai, and the scope of what was considered for those characters' respective slots (i.e. the relative weight that the surprise factor and the retro factor were given in choosing them); I don't think the marketing team necessarily gives much answer to that.

Another thing I'll add is that the Retro 3-pack was for NA only from what I can find, the three were sold separately in Japan. So you also have to consider the point of how much was that on the western marketing team vs. Sakurai's own input.

In the end though I feel the argument comes down to fan perception vs. Developer intent and that's not an easy thing to parse as we all have our own ideas on what something means and it doesn't always align with what Sakurai feels. A good example of that is Smash 3DS and Wii U being considered Smash 4 and 5 rather then just 4.

 

[SPEN18]

That doesn't take away Ice Climbers are weird choices in a Smash game that didn't yet have Diddy, Wario, Dedede, Charizard and the like. NES retro rep is a cute idea of course, but the fundamental characters where ignored for crazy gimmick characters as ICs, G&W and Sheik in Melee.

Ya tbh Melee's roster doesn't get enough retrospective criticism. Like, the game was super-rushed and it showed. Obviously this is not how things actually could have worked in practice, but imagine replacing every single clone in that game with a unique character. Suddenly, it looks a lot better IMO with that same raw roster size. Again, not saying we could have actually realistically got that, but it gives an idea of how much better a roster of that general size could hypothetically look. While the past is in the past, the unfortunate part IMO is that, by bringing back the odd ducks (clones or not) from that roster over and over, we're needlessly keeping ourselves tied down to those circumstantial constraints that really shouldn't be factors anymore.

 

[Geno Boost]

Aw man! if Melee got a greater time development, i wish their replacements could be from the Western games made by Nintendo like StarTropics or UniRacers.

Uniracer as a playable character sounds fun but pretty sure it would cause Pixar to sue it again for dumb reasons
However the only possible unicycle character is Rocket from Rocket Robot on the wheel its a Ubisoft character and his game released exclusively on n64 but I don’t think there is any chance for that one

 

[HyperSomari64]

However the only possible unicycle character is Rocket from Rocket Robot on the wheel its a Ubisoft character and his game released exclusively on n64 but I don’t think there is any chance for that one

Rocket was developed by Sucker Punch, and i'm pretty sure SIE has the IP on it's portfolio.

 

[Geno Boost]

Rocket was developed by Sucker Punch, and i'm pretty sure SIE has the IP on it's portfolio.

Oh now it’s sounds strange rocket is a Sony character who is exclusive to Nintendo console

 

[HyperSomari64]

Oh now it’s sounds strange rocket is a Sony character who is exclusive to Nintendo console

Not as weird as Rareware before being acquired by Microsoft.

 

[Geno Boost]

Not as weird as Rareware before being acquired by Microsoft.

Difference is old rareware games did release in Xbox
Meanwhile Rocket Is still pretty much on n64

 

[chocolatejr9]

Not as weird as Rareware before being acquired by Microsoft.

Or as weird as... um...

Wait, Nintendo doesn't do big acquisitions...

Difference is old rareware games did release in Xbox
Meanwhile Rocket Is still pretty much on n64

Personally, I'm gonna blame Jim Ryan and his supposed disdain towards rereleasing old games.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Oh now it’s sounds strange rocket is a Sony character who is exclusive to Nintendo console

He wouldn't be the only one. There's also Skyblazer, which I think is also a Sony IP that's exclusive to a Nintendo console (specially the SNES).

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The Switch port of Crash N'Sane Trilogy has the interesting distinction of being a Nintendo game with a character once exclusive to Sony, now owned by Microsfot, and (for the Japanese release) published by Sega.

 

[chocolatejr9]

The Switch port of Crash N'Sane Trilogy has the interesting distinction of being a Nintendo game with a character once exclusive to Sony, now owned by Microsfot, and (for the Japanese release) published by Sega.

taps mic

clears throat

Woah.

 

[HyperSomari64]

The Switch port of Crash N'Sane Trilogy has the interesting distinction of being a Nintendo game with a character once exclusive to Sony, now owned by Microsfot, and (for the Japanese release) published by Sega.

So a japanese copy of N. Sane Trilogy is the definition of Coexist?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ya tbh Melee's roster doesn't get enough retrospective criticism. Like, the game was super-rushed and it showed. Obviously this is not how things actually could have worked in practice, but imagine replacing every single clone in that game with a unique character. Suddenly, it looks a lot better IMO with that same raw roster size. Again, not saying we could have actually realistically got that, but it gives an idea of how much better a roster of that general size could hypothetically look. While the past is in the past, the unfortunate part IMO is that, by bringing back the odd ducks (clones or not) from that roster over and over, we're needlessly keeping ourselves tied down to those circumstantial constraints that really shouldn't be factors anymore.

Clones aren't even the issue. It's that every newcomer but Peach, Bowser, Mewtwo and Marth was a weird one. And could've easily been Nintendo fundamental character as Diddy, Wario, Dedede or anyone of the likes.

Just replace ICs, G&W and Sheik with these characters and the roster looks a million times better even with the clones.

 

[SPEN18]

Clones aren't even the issue. It's that every newcomer but Peach, Bowser, Mewtwo and Marth was a weird one. And could've easily been Nintendo fundamental character as Diddy, Wario, Dedede or anyone of the likes.

Just replace ICs, G&W and Sheik with these characters and the roster looks a million times better even with the clones.

Well, I think both the clones and the weird unique choices were issues. I mean, the clone choices are no less weird if you think about them. Falco was a sidekick-type character and the only other one of those was, like, Luigi, who is a way more obvious choice. Ganondorf being built off Falcon was weird. Roy had weird timing relative to the actual release of his game. Doc, YL, Pichu....well, getting clone variants of existing characters was not an obvious expectation at the time, either, especially when put next to the foundational characters that were absent.

As you say, they're basically all weird, weird, weird except for a few. Even if you think certain ones were justifiable, they were at best non-obvious picks in a roster missing a lot of obvious picks.

Tbh Melee made it that much harder on Brawl, as Brawl had to pick up a lot of the unique newcomer slack that really should have been better addressed in Melee. Plus of course we for some reason had to import a lot of the weird Melee picks on top of that, and most of those made even less sense years after their inclusions in Melee.

 

[Perkilator]

Clones aren't even the issue. It's that every newcomer but Peach, Bowser, Mewtwo and Marth was a weird one. And could've easily been Nintendo fundamental character as Diddy, Wario, Dedede or anyone of the likes.

Just replace ICs, G&W and Sheik with these characters and the roster looks a million times better even with the clones.

I disagree. In my opinion, the weird choices have as much right to be in the roster as the Nintendo fundamentals.

I swear to God, I don’t think I’ve seen any of this “retrospective criticism” BS in any other fighting game fanbase in regards to weird choices.

 

[Ivander]

I disagree. In my opinion, the weird choices have as much right to be in the roster as the Nintendo fundamentals.

I swear to God, I don’t think I’ve seen any of this “retrospective criticism” BS in any other fighting game fanbase in regards to weird choices.

I don't really see alot of criticism towards weird newcomers in original fighting games. I've hardly seen it with other crossovers, maybe because their fanbases aren't as big, maybe their fanbases are more open, though the moments do certainly happen from time to time. I remember Rocket Raccoon in regards to UMvC3 getting alot of criticism when the UMvC3 leak happened. That criticism died down a bit when the game released, but it really disappeared when Guardians of the Galaxy released and nobody complained about his return in MvCi.

That said, the Smash fandom certainly has one of the biggest and longest-running fanbases in terms of crossovers, so it will have it's fans who are much more open to criticise, but we probably just notice it alot because we are, after all, part of the fanbase.

 

[Aligo]

I think the difference is to be found in the fact that smash is a crossover game, meaning that adding a character from a series greatly reduces the likelihood of other characters being added from the same series. This results in ire towards wierd picks as they could have been more popular characters instead. Most fighting games use a roster or are based off of characters created for that series.

A better comparison for smash would be something like marvel Vs capcom.

 

[Oracle Link]

Here are some Kirby Alts i threw Together:

I tried making Retro kirby Black and white but i wouldve had to do that Manually also this Design was used more in Colour anyways aswell as being in star Allies!

 

[HyperSomari64]

A better comparison for smash would be something like marvel Vs capcom.

The only difference is that Smash is only a crossover for video games. As Marvel vs. Capcom only can feature characters from Marvel and Capcom. Seeing Superman and Iori in that franchise is like the "Goku for Smash" phenomenon

 

[chocolatejr9]

Get ready for a new world of adventures when #SuperNintendoWorld opens 2/17/23 @UniStudios! pic.twitter.com/kuntHbnY9V

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) December 14, 2022

Potentially stupid question: would this be something mentioned in a Nintendo Direct? February is usually when the first Direct of thd year is, so I figured it'd be a good fit, but I'm not entirely sure...

At the VERY least, I expect a new Mario game announced soonish.

 

[Ivander]

The only difference is that Smash is only a crossover for video games. As Marvel vs. Capcom only can feature characters from Marvel and Capcom. Seeing Superman and Iori in that franchise is like the "Goku for Smash" phenomenon

So does that make Cole MacGrath the "Goku" of Street Fighter X Tekken?