Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dream1ng]

There hasn't been any retro picks since Duck Hunt in Smash 4. Doesn't mean it won't happen again, though. Just don't expect them to be DLC characters.

Duck Hunt was actually the surprise pick, not the retro pick. Usually the surprise characters are retro characters, but they aren't actually chosen on the basis of being retro, like the retro picks of ICs and (probably) Pit. I don't think we've gotten a true "retro pick" since Brawl.

 

[Geno Boost]

to me a retro pick is a character from a dead nintendo franchise for like at least 10 or 15 years or more all falls into that category
and pretty sure would have been retro pick if they were introduced first in ultimate

 

[HyperSomari64]

to me a retro pick is a character from a dead nintendo franchise for like at least 10 or 15 years or more all falls into that category
and pretty sure would have been retro pick if they were introduced first in ultimate

TFW Steel Diver and The Last Story are now 'Retro'.

 

[Geno Boost]

back in sm4sh i didnt view excitebike as retro rep because both excitebike and punch-out got a revival back in 2009 with a new game but now i could start seeing excitebike as a retro rep
as for Ayumi i could no longer see her as retro rep as her franchise got revived recently

 

[fogbadge]

did sakurai himself ever use the term retro? cause i know he said nes for IC

 

[Wonder Smash]

Duck Hunt was actually the surprise pick, not the retro pick. Usually the surprise characters are retro characters, but they aren't actually chosen on the basis of being retro, like the retro picks of ICs and (probably) Pit. I don't think we've gotten a true "retro pick" since Brawl.

Duck Hunt was definitely a retro pick. The only real surprise was that they were unexpected but that's like pretty much any character, But they're no doubt retro picks just like the Ice Climbers were.

 

[Arcanir]

In terms of how Sakurai approaches the character there is a difference between what he considers a 'surprise pick' and a 'retro pick'. For the former we have Duck Hunt's slide from the Smash 4 project plan and in it he never notes the character's 'retro' status as a reason for being picked, instead focusing on the big success of the title and the moveset that the character will bring in via the Light gun influence. By comparison, with the Ice Climbers he's very clear that from the start the point of the 'slot' they occupied was for a character from the NES era and narrowing down the choices from that came from the movesets they could offer. So there is a noted difference between how he approached the two characters, one was chosen due to a combination of surprise factor, success, and moveset while the other was chosen to fill a particular retro spot that used moveset as a way to narrow the list down.

So treating Duck Hunt the same as IC is not quite accurate here. It's possible that the retro factor played a role, but it was not the main reason the character was approached like with the ICs. There were other factors that took priority, and as we saw with Piranha Plant they're not beholden to retro options when it comes to their 'surprise' options.

 

[SPEN18]

Okay, but even if Duck Hunt got in for being a surprise and/or having high sales and notoriety, then it still stands that Excitebiker or similar reps could get in for similar reasons regardless of whether the 3P newcomers are retro choices as well.

Edit: It seems relatively likely also that Duck Hunt being an NES-era rep could have been a major contributing factor anyway; the lack of that reasoning on the presentation slide hardly proves that it wasn't a major factor. And with PP it is hard to say if it was the result of a later expansion of the "surprise" notion that had previously been applied in conjunction with retroness; perhaps the notion of the "surprise" slot simply evolved alongside the increasing predictability of that slot going to a retro choice (though it is hard to say for sure).

 

[dream1ng]

to me a retro pick is a character from a dead nintendo franchise for like at least 10 or 15 years or more all falls into that category
and pretty sure would have been retro pick if they were introduced first in ultimate

Well you can abide by your headcanon if you choose, but the 'retro pick' is the character who was chosen specifically to fill the spot of representing the 'retro era', which is, as Sakurai/Smash see it, pretty much anything before the SNES. To that end, only ICs and possibly Pit were chosen on that basis.

The other three were retro characters when added, but they weren't added as the retro pick. They were the surprise picks.

Duck Hunt was definitely a retro pick. The only real surprise was that they were unexpected but that's like pretty much any character, But they're no doubt retro picks just like the Ice Climbers were.

No, Duck Hunt is the 'surprise character', that's literally how Sakurai described them. It's the G&W/ROB niche, not the ICs/Pit niche, there has been an official distinction made. They're similar in the fact that they're drawn from the same era, but they're added on a different basis. Arcanir said it well.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

TFW Steel Diver and The Last Story are now 'Retro'.

Ive been thinking about last story rcently, i remember liking it but haven't played it in years.

 

[Arcanir]

Okay, but even if Duck Hunt got in for being a surprise and/or having high sales and notoriety, then it still stands that Excitebiker or similar reps could get in for similar reasons regardless of whether the 3P newcomers are retro choices as well.

Edit: It seems relatively likely also that Duck Hunt being an NES-era rep could have been a major contributing factor anyway; the lack of that reasoning on the presentation slide hardly proves that it wasn't a major factor. And with PP it is hard to say if it was the result of a later expansion of the "surprise" notion that had previously been applied in conjunction with retroness; perhaps the notion of the "surprise" slot simply evolved alongside the increasing predictability of that slot going to a retro choice (though it is hard to say for sure).

Sure it could be a factor, but comparing a character who barely (if at all) had their retro element mentioned to a character whose entire reasoning for initially being considered was being retro is still a stark difference in focus. Based on the information we have Duck Hunt isn't defined by being a retro character like the ICs were, their other factors are what got them considered and chosen first and foremost. Putting both of them in the same category means ignoring those other factors and focusing exclusively on one, and that one factor is one we don't even know if it was a major defining factor in the first place.

 

[Wonder Smash]

In terms of how Sakurai approaches the character there is a difference between what he considers a 'surprise pick' and a 'retro pick'. For the former we have Duck Hunt's slide from the Smash 4 project plan and in it he never notes the character's 'retro' status as a reason for being picked, instead focusing on the big success of the title and the moveset that the character will bring in via the Light gun influence. By comparison, with the Ice Climbers he's very clear that from the start the point of the 'slot' they occupied was for a character from the NES era and narrowing down the choices from that came from the movesets they could offer. So there is a noted difference between how he approached the two characters, one was chosen due to a combination of surprise factor, success, and moveset while the other was chosen to fill a particular retro spot that used moveset as a way to narrow the list down.

So treating Duck Hunt the same as IC is not quite accurate here. It's possible that the retro factor played a role, but it was not the main reason the character was approached like with the ICs. There were other factors that took priority, and as we saw with Piranha Plant they're not beholden to retro options when it comes to their 'surprise' options.

It really doesn't matter how different Sakurai's approach is, the fact that it was an NES character that he went for shows that retro did play a part in it, so it makes a valid comparison. Again the only surprise is that he was completely unexpected and Sakurai knew that but in some ways, being retro is probably what makes him a surprise character. Couple that with his recognition and it's no wonder he's such a surprise character. Doesn't change the fact that he's still clearly a retro pick, as he's literally taken straight from an NES game.

No, Duck Hunt is the 'surprise character', that's literally how Sakurai described them. It's the G&W/ROB niche, not the ICs/Pit niche, there has been an official distinction made. They're similar in the fact that they're drawn from the same era, but they're added on a different basis. Arcanir said it well.

Sakurai never said that surprise characters can't be retro characters and Duck Hunt is literally taken straight from an NES game, just like the Ice Climbers. So he's objectively a retro character.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Is even the 7th generation of consoles considered "Retro" nowadays?

 

[SPEN18]

Sure it could be a factor, but comparing a character who barely (if at all) had their retro element mentioned to a character whose entire reasoning for initially being considered was being retro is still a stark difference in focus. Based on the information we have Duck Hunt isn't defined by being a retro character like the ICs were, their other factors are what got them considered and chosen first and foremost. Putting both of them in the same category means ignoring those other factors and focusing exclusively on one, and that one factor is one we don't even know if it was a major defining factor in the first place.

Yeah it's pure speculation there on my part, speculation that DH could be almost the same situation as ICs, even if it's just in the effective sense. Or, at least, it certainly seems that way to the casual observer. Remember that Sakurai blurbs on newcomers are basically never comprehensive (though in this case the presentation slides are maybe a little bit better than your usual interview or offhand comment), but I get what you're saying that they're pretty much the best we have to go on in this particular case. At minimum, the lack of full context for the slide (i.e. knowledge of the actual presentation of that slide) leaves the door a bit open for said further speculation.

Regardless, it doesn't change much of what I said before, in that we could get a character like DH or Excitebiker, who the casual fanbase would peg as an explicitly retro choice regardless of the actual reasons for them getting in, irrespective of any third party reps who could also be casually labelled as retro in nature (again excluding obvious "fan fave" picks from the equation).

 

[Wonder Smash]

I just realized something; when Sakurai was talking about Duck Hunt being a "surprise character", his was talking about the moveset, not his pick for them. Duck Hunt's moveset is full of "surprises", as it features a lot of references from the NES Zapper games. So that's what he meant. He wasn't saying Duck Hunt's appearance was a surprise.

 

[dream1ng]

It really doesn't matter how different Sakurai's approach is, the fact that it was an NES character that he went for shows that retro did play a part in it, so it makes a valid comparison. Again the only surprise is that he was completely unexpected and Sakurai knew that but in some ways, being retro is probably what makes him a surprise character. Couple that with his recognition and it's no wonder he's such a surprise character. Doesn't change the fact that he's still clearly a retro pick, as he's literally taken straight from an NES game.

Being an NES character =/= being added because they were an NES character.

Those are different things, and concluding that one is inextricable from the other despite having the attested reasoning from Sakurai himself behind the character's inclusion is, at the very least, presuming an unfounded premise.

Sakurai never said that surprise characters can't be retro characters and Duck Hunt is literally taken straight from an NES game, just like the Ice Climbers. So he's objectively a retro character.

"He didn't say he wasn't so he is" isn't how things are proven. He is a retro character, but that doesn't inherently make him the retro pick, because the retro pick are characters chosen specifically to represent that era. Sakurai gave the reason Duck Hunt was chosen, and explicitly ascribed him the surprise pick. That's a different role than the retro pick. The surprise pick isn't chosen on the basis of when they're from. Look at PP.

G&W is a retro character, but he wasn't the retro pick, ICs were. He was the surprise pick. Melee had both. Just because Smash 4 didn't have the designated retro pick doesn't mean the surprise pick was also the retro pick. And a lack of Sakurai saying that DH isn't the retro pick isn't proof that he is. That's a basic fallacy.

I just realized something; when Sakurai was talking about Duck Hunt being a "surprise character", his was talking about the moveset, not his pick for them. Duck Hunt's moveset is full of "surprises", as it features a lot of references from the NES Zapper games. So that's what he meant. He wasn't saying Duck Hunt's appearance was a surprise.

No he's not. First of all, just because the previous sentence was about the moveset doesn't mean the following sentence is. Second, when he listed the previous surprise characters after adding PP, he specifically listed G&W, ROB and DH.

 

[Perkilator]

Is even the 7th generation of consoles considered "Retro" nowadays?

I guess it's just one of those things that happens with the passing of time. Back during the 2000's, games from around the 80's-90's was considered "retro" and nowadays (from what I've seen, at least) games from around 2000 are starting to slowly gain the "retro" moniker.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Being an NES character =/= being added because they were an NES character.

Those are different things, and concluding that one is inextricable from the other despite having the attested reasoning from Sakurai himself behind the character's inclusion is, at the very least, presuming an unfounded premise.

Okay, keep believing that Pit and Ice Climbers, two NES retro characters, got added for that, yet somehow Duck Hunt, a character that just happens to be the same kind of character as they are, got added for anything else except for that...

"He didn't say he wasn't so he is" isn't how things are proven. He is a retro character, but that doesn't inherently make him the retro pick, because the retro pick are characters chosen specifically to represent that era. Sakurai gave the reason Duck Hunt was chosen, and explicitly ascribed him the surprise pick. That's a different role than the retro pick. The surprise pick isn't chosen on the basis of when they're from. Look at PP.

G&W is a retro character, but he wasn't the retro pick, ICs were. He was the surprise pick. Melee had both. Just because Smash 4 didn't have the designated retro pick doesn't mean the surprise pick was also the retro pick. And a lack of Sakurai saying that DH isn't the retro pick isn't proof that he is. That's a basic fallacy.

Except you misunderstood Sakurai. He was referring to Duck Hunt's moveset being full of surprises (featuring many references), not that he was a surprise pick. If you noticed in the link Arcanir posted, it was centered around the characters' movesets.

 

[dream1ng]

Okay, keep believing that Pit and Ice Climbers, two NES retro characters, got added for that, yet somehow Duck Hunt, a character that just happens to be the same thing, got added for anything else other than that...

You don't have to take it on faith, Sakurai has made explicit the reason.

Except you misunderstood Sakurai. He was referring to Duck Hunt's moveset being full of surprises (featuring many references), not that he was a surprise pick.

No, he listed him as one of the series' surprise characters with G&W, ROB and PP in a later interview with famitsu. It's your misinterpretation that he's talking about the moveset just because the previous sentence was about the moveset.

 

[SPEN18]

The other thing is that AFAIK we don't know what else was considered for Duck Hunt's spot; we don't know all that the "surprise" pick encompassed at that time, and we don't know if said scope was expanded later on to include things like PP. It's also notable that we got Wii Fit Trainer in Smash 4, which I think many casual observers would consider a "surprise" pick, but still the translated slide for Duck Hunt refers to them as "this game's surprise character" as if that means something completely different from Wii Fit, which was notably not a retro pick (maybe it's simply the fact that Wii Fit was not a secret character while DH was, but again it's sufficiently vague). Only so much can come from considering DH's situation in a vacuum.

 

[Wonder Smash]

You don't have to take it on faith, Sakurai has made explicit the reason.

The fact that Duck Hunt is a retro character supports him being a retro pick.

No, he listed him as one of the series' surprise characters with G&W, ROB and PP in a later interview with famitsu. It's your misinterpretation that he's talking about the moveset just because the previous sentence was about the moveset.

No, it was about the movesets, as he was also talking about the other characters' movesets too.

 

[dream1ng]

The other thing is that AFAIK we don't know what else was considered for Duck Hunt's spot; we don't know all that the "surprise" pick encompassed at that time, and we don't know if said scope was expanded later on to include things like PP. It's also notable that we got Wii Fit Trainer in Smash 4, which I think many casual observers would consider a "surprise" pick, but still the translation slide for Duck Hunt refers to them as "this game's surprise character" as if that means something completely different from Wii Fit, which was notably not a retro pick (maybe it's simply the fact that Wii Fit was not a secret character while DH was, but again it's sufficiently vague). Only so much can come from considering DH's situation in a vacuum.

Yes, it's not like DH's evaluation began and ended with "they're surprising, good enough". I'm sure being highly recognizable also played into it. But, we can only concretely invoke what has been made clear. Duck Hunt is a retro character, but without proof that they were added on that basis, we can't take it for a fact. What we can take for a fact is they were added, at least in part, within the confines of the allocated 'surprise pick' niche. As that's attested.

So calling DH the "retro pick" is, at the least, unfounded, and at the most, incorrect.

 

[Troykv]

So... then Ice Climber is the only character that was added for the sake of adding a retro character and every other "retro" character had some extra reasoning that had more precedent than being retro (usually being a "surprise funny pick").

I guess it makes sense, I never had see people talk about the Ice Climbers outside the context of Smash Bros., and I find that a bit funny because I actually played the original game before knowing of Smash Bros. Melee and like it xD.

 

[SPEN18]

Yes, it's not like DH's evaluation began and ended with "they're surprising, good enough". I'm sure being highly recognizable also played into it. But, we can only concretely invoke what has been made clear. Duck Hunt is a retro character, but without proof that they were added on that basis, we can't take it for a fact. What we can take for a fact is they were added, at least in part, within the confines of the allocated 'surprise pick' niche. As that's attested.

So calling DH the "retro pick" is, at the least, unfounded, and at the most, incorrect.

Yes, it is not hard fact, but I find myself firmly in the camp that the softer factors point to it being very likely that the NES retro status was a major contributing factor. And, to reiterate, with perhaps some slight alterations it doesn't really change what I was saying about retro third party reps not affecting the chances of first party retro picks (we just have to divorce the fact of the matter of a retro pick getting in from whether or not that pick being retro is the explicit reason it gets in, which plays into what I was saying anyway since Pac-Man and Mega Man being from the 80s doesn't mean they just "call it good" for that era and explicitly avoid any other 80s reps).

 

[dream1ng]

Your assumption, rather.

No, it was about the movesets, as he was also talking about the other characters' movesets too.

"Sakurai called them the surprise pick, twice"
"Yeah, but that's not what he meant"
"Sakurai never called them the retro pick"
"Yeah, but that's what he meant"

That's where we're at with this argument. I'm gonna defer to Sakurai here, not you.

 

[Sucumbio]

So... then Ice Climber is the only character that was added for the sake of adding a retro character and every other "retro" character had some extra reasoning that had more precedent than being retro (usually being a "surprise funny pick").

I guess it makes sense, I never had see people talk about the Ice Climbers outside the context of Smash Bros., and I find that a bit funny because I actually played the original game before knowing of Smash Bros. Melee and like it xD.

Kinda what I thought... Like there's so many retro characters but being in the game solely because of their retro status seems to only coincide with icies.

 

[SPEN18]

Kinda what I thought... Like there's so many retro characters but being in the game solely because of their retro status seems to only coincide with icies.

Yeah both the Icies and the other "surprises" have to do with filling specific quotas; it's just that it is debatable how different they really are in practice, and that this difference also may very well vary by game (the sample size is too small to say if PP was a real evolution of the idea or just the manifestation of the previous notion becoming more apparently diverse as the number of picks drawn from it expanded).

In the end, I prefer not to have explicit quotas anyway.

 

[Wonder Smash]

"Sakurai called them the surprise pick, twice"
"Yeah, but that's not what he meant"
"Sakurai never called them the retro pick"
"Yeah, but that's what he meant"

That's where we're at with this argument. I'm gonna defer to Sakurai here, not you.

Way to put words in my mouth but it's pretty clear what Sakurai meant. It was shown in the link that you yourself mentioned that Sakurai was talking about the movesets, not Duck Hunt being a surprise pick.

 

[dream1ng]

So... then Ice Climber is the only character that was added for the sake of adding a retro character and every other "retro" character had some extra reasoning that had more precedent than being retro (usually being a "surprise funny pick").

I guess it makes sense, I never had see people talk about the Ice Climbers outside the context of Smash Bros., and I find that a bit funny because I actually played the original game before knowing of Smash Bros. Melee and like it xD.

That's the only time that it's been made explicit that Sakurai was specifically hunting for an NES character, and the spot preceded the actual choice.

People also extend this spot to Pit, but I don't think there's any actual proof that Sakurai added him on that basis, where there was a spot allocated prior to being filled. It seems like a reasonable assumption, but it is an assumption nonetheless. To my knowledge, at least.

Pit was, fwiw, also much more requested prior to his inclusion than the ICs were. That may have been the factor. Or a factor.

Yes, it is not hard fact, but I find myself firmly in the camp that the softer factors point to it being very likely that the NES retro status was a major contributing factor. And, to reiterate, with perhaps some slight alterations it doesn't really change what I was saying about retro third party reps not affecting the chances of first party retro picks (we just have to divorce the fact of the matter of a retro pick getting in from whether or not that pick being retro is the explicit reason it gets in, which plays into what I was saying anyway since Pac-Man and Mega Man being from the 80s doesn't mean they just "call it good" for that era and explicitly avoid any other 80s reps).

Well people are looking at it like "NES retro rep" is a spot that needs to be filled. But what if it doesn't anymore? What if that's not something that Sakurai is still seeking? It wasn't for Ultimate. It may not have been for Smash 4 either. The only time we know concretely it was, was with Melee.

So if that's not something he's seeking, then having those qualities wouldn't matter.

I do agree that retro third-party reps don't affect retro first-party reps though. But that's part of the bigger picture that I don't think third and first parties are suitable comparisons to each other, nor do I think the status of how active a third-party franchise is is nearly as important for their inclusion.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

At least other Retro characters were considered, but yeah, IC's are the only actual ones.

At most we have characters we have characters with a retro playstyle(I.E. Pac-Man), but that's different.

 

[SPEN18]

Well people are looking at it like "NES retro rep" is a spot that needs to be filled. But what if it doesn't anymore? What if that's not something that Sakurai is still seeking? It wasn't for Ultimate. It may not have been for Smash 4 either. The only time we know concretely it was, was with Melee.

So if that's not something he's seeking, then having those qualities wouldn't matter.

But the argument that it doesn't matter anymore hinges greatly on it not mattering for Duck Hunt, because Ult was sort of an odd case. But even if it didn't matter for Duck Hunt, we still got Duck Hunt. In that case, you're right that something being from the 80s wouldn't explicitly help it, which I am fine with, but DH still getting in regardless of Sakurai having an explicit retro pick or not would still open the door for other legacy characters, 80s or otherwise, to make it in based on things like notoriety, sales, and the surprise factor as well. Which is effectively almost as good as having a single spot explicitly saved for them.

 

[dream1ng]

Way to put words in my mouth but it's pretty clear what Sakurai meant. It was shown in the link that your yourself mentioned that Sakurai was talking about the movesets, not Duck Hunt being a surprise pick.

He doesn't mention movesets once in the comparison in the PP-focused article. If that's the basis he was comparing them by, that detail would be crucial. Otherwise it's leaving out the whole context. The commonality between statements is being unexpected additions, and was the context of the question the journalist posed to Sakurai in the article.

Your interpretation of the relationship between two sentences in the first reference is clarified as incorrect by the second reference, which eliminates the potential ambiguity. The second reference can even be taken in absence of the first and prove the point.

 

[Wonder Smash]

He doesn't mention movesets once in the comparison in the PP-focused article. If that's the basis he was comparing them by, that detail would be crucial. Otherwise it's leaving out the whole context. The commonality between statements is being unexpected additions, and was the context of the question the journalist posed to Sakurai in the article.

Your interpretation of the relationship between two sentences in the first reference is clarified as incorrect by the second reference, which eliminates the potential ambiguity. The second reference can even be taken in absence of the first and prove the point.

He was clearly talking about movesets in the one that was posted here, so that's what I'm going by, as there is no "second reference".

 

[dream1ng]

But the argument that it doesn't matter anymore hinges greatly on it not mattering for Duck Hunt, because Ult was sort of an odd case.

Well insofar as that's the character we got, but if it didn't matter any more it wouldn't matter across the board, not just for Duck Hunt. And that could be why the next time we got a character that wasn't "retro" in the sense of not being current.

So from a practical standpoint, yes, but from the theoretical standpoint, no.

But even if it didn't matter for Duck Hunt, we still got Duck Hunt. In that case, you're right that something being from the 80s wouldn't explicitly help it, which I am fine with, but DH still getting in regardless of Sakurai having an explicit retro pick or not would still open the door for other legacy characters, 80s or otherwise, to make it in based on things like notoriety, sales, and the surprise factor as well. Which is effectively almost as good as having a single spot explicitly saved for them.

It could also be because the surprise inclusion is one of the types not beholden to being current, like the 'retro pick', third-parties, or fan favorites.

If the point is just that surprise characters can be non-current, then I agree with you. But I don't think that was ever being contested. I mean, the first one we got is Game & Watch.

He was clearly talking about movesets in the one that was posted here, so that's what I'm going by, as there is no "second reference".

Saying "that doesn't exist" to counterpoints is a very interesting strategy. Not an effective one... but interesting.

The second reference is when he lists G&W, ROB, DH as the previous unexpected characters in an Ultimate-era interview shortly after PP was revealed.

Masahiro Sakurai Talks Piranha Plant, Spirits, And 20 Years Of Super Smash Bros.

We talk with the co-creator and director of the Super Smash Bros. series about the process of creating the ambitious crossover franchise.

www.gameinformer.com

The Super Smash Bros. series has always spawned much fan speculation for characters that will be included, but with Piranha Plant, you have given players one of the most unpredictable inclusions. How does it feel to be able to still surprise fans even so many years later? Was that one of the intents of the inclusion of this character?

...I believe it’s important to have a good balance as a game. In the past titles in the series, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B. and Duck Hunt Dog were some of the examples we offered outside of people’s typical expectations. However, if we don’t have these types of fighters, and we only had typical “hero/heroine” type fighters in the lineup, there’s not much difference. It’s probably not very interesting.

You want to keep digging your heels in, go ahead, but the throughline is obvious and not in your favor of now seemingly trying to discredit "surprise pick" from being a thing. At least in Smash 4.

And don't try to say he's connecting them based on movesets, like there aren't a bunch of other, non surprise-rep characters with "surprising" movesets, and him choosing these four to tie together - G&W, ROB, DH and PP - is completely incidental.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Edit: Double post, my bad.


Saying "that doesn't exist" to counterpoints is a very interesting strategy. Not an effective one... but interesting.

The second reference is when he lists G&W, ROB, DH as the previous unexpected characters in an Ultimate-era interview shortly after PP was revealed.

Masahiro Sakurai Talks Piranha Plant, Spirits, And 20 Years Of Super Smash Bros.

We talk with the co-creator and director of the Super Smash Bros. series about the process of creating the ambitious crossover franchise.

www.gameinformer.com

You want to keep digging your heels in, go ahead, but the throughline is obvious and not in your favor of now seemingly trying to discredit "surprise pick" from being a thing. At least in Smash 4.

And don't try to say he's connecting them based on movesets, like there aren't a bunch of other, non surprise-rep characters with "surprising" movesets, and him choosing these four to tie together - G&W, ROB, DH and PP - is completely incidental.

Okay, so...where's this "surprise pick" part that you kept bringing up over and over? Because it's definitely NOT in this article here. All he said is that those are the type of characters that fans don't usually expect, not that they're picked specifically as a "surprise pick". In fact, he even says it right there that he doesn't really focus on the surprise element when picking characters because it wears off once the character is announced. That makes more sense, and even supports my claim even more about Duck Hunt's moveset in the first link, compared to your claim about him to being a "surprise pick" when his section is not really a "surprise" at all. So you pretty much debunked your own argument right there. That source did you more harm than good.

Though in the end, it's still a bit silly to be using that as if retro characters can't also be the type of characters that fans don't usually expect.

 

[SPEN18]

Well insofar as that's the character we got, but if it didn't matter any more it wouldn't matter across the board, not just for Duck Hunt. And that could be why the next time we got a character that wasn't "retro" in the sense of not being current.

So from a practical standpoint, yes, but from the theoretical standpoint, no.

If being retro did indeed matter for Duck Hunt, then it is much more likely that there could be another slot in the future where being retro matters. Without being able to say it hasn't mattered since Brawl at the latest, the argument that it doesn't matter anymore basically hinges on PP and Ult in general, which is much weaker than being able to say that it didn't matter the last time we had a more standard newcomer selection.

It could also be because the surprise inclusion is one of the types not beholden to being current, like the 'retro pick', third-parties, or fan favorites.

If the point is just that surprise characters can be non-current, then I agree with you. But I don't think that was ever being contested. I mean, the first one we got is Game & Watch.

Well, it's a little more than "surprise characters can be non-current."
For one, Duck Hunt's justification went beyond simply filling the quota by singling out its iconic status; the fact that said notoriety might matter for the surprise pick(s) is a big deal for the chances of legacy characters taking that spot or those spots. Hence what I said about the combination of notoriety and surprise; some other legacy character could make it in based off a different weighting of those two factors, as we don't know exactly how important each was for Duck Hunt (relative to each other). Duck Hunt being a legacy franchise with high sales can tell us a great deal about what might make for a good future surprise pick, and I believe something like Excitebike fits exactly that mold, only with sales that are not quite as bananas as DH.
Also, if being explicitly "retro" in Sakurai's mind means "80s," then Duck Hunt not being explicitly "retro" under that restricted definition would mean good things for 90s and 2000s characters being able to take a future similar spot as well. Hence "80s or otherwise."
So the immediate implication borders on already known fact, yeah, but there are more nuanced implications of DH possibly not being explicitly retro than simply "legacy characters can fill the surprise quota" (most of which may not have been clear from the way I worded it before).

 

[Perkilator]

『ソニックフロンティア』、世界累計販売本数が250万本を突破🦔💨

"Sonic Frontiers" sells over 2.5 million copies worldwide✨#ソニック #ソニックフロンティア #SonicFrontiers pic.twitter.com/uFFDQ3YtCc

— セガ公式アカウント🦔 (@SEGA_OFFICIAL) December 13, 2022

Between this and Sakurai having enjoyed what he played of Frontiers, I hope he and SEGA are more open about Sonic’s representation in the next Smash.

 

[Batkelley]

Personally, I've always just kind of figured that "Retro" picks are, to some extent, a sort of sub-category to "surprise" picks. I mean, are there really any retro characters who wouldn't be at least a little surprising?

 

[Wonder Smash]

Personally, I've always just kind of figured that "Retro" picks are, to some extent, a sort of sub-category to "surprise" picks. I mean, are there really any retro characters who wouldn't be at least a little surprising?

I was kind of thinking the same thing. Since retro characters are usually not discussed or expected among the fanbase due to them being retro characters, then that alone would make them "surprise" picks if they were revealed for Smash.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Does Neptune counts as a "surprise" character?