Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Ivander]

So, what do we think of Astral Chain nowadays?

Don't know what it's chances are now, but more playable characters from new IPs is always nice.

 

[dezeray112]

Has anybody seen Sakurai’s latest interview?
https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2...ould-avoid-trying-to-appeal-to-western-tastes

Would Capcom's DmC: Devil May Cry and Bionic Commando (2009) be examples of this?

 

[Perkilator]

So, what do we think of Astral Chain nowadays?

I think the franchise is kind of in a weird limbo. At the very least, I’m happy that Nintendo fully bought the rights to it prior to Platinum’s implosion.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I am curious about ultimate dlc chracthers.do you think most of them will be t
Returning? I Think most are safe except maybe like pirhana plant

Byleth, Min Min and Aegis (Pyra/Mythra) are probably the most safe.

Not sure on least safe outside of Plant, maybe Sephiroth or Sora?

So, what do we think of Astral Chain nowadays?

Does Nintendo own the game or it’s just published?

 

[Noipoi]

So, what do we think of Astral Chain nowadays?

The protagonists will make very lovely assist trophies

 

[Wonder Smash]

There are also cases where games that take place in Japan were changed in localization to be more westernised.

Like how Persona 1 on the PS1 for some reason was significantly altered to remove lot of the Japanese references. P2 onwards kept the games in Japan in all languages.

Ace Attorney is probably the only series nowadays that changed the setting but although localized adaptations such as the anime generally keep the setting in Japan but with the localized names.

The best way to describe Ace Attorney's setting is "Japanifornia". lol

Though in these cases, the games were localized to make them easier to reach out to the western audiences rather than being designed to look like a western game. You can still see the Japanese culture in those games, especially in AA. So I find that more acceptable.

 

[PlasmaDam]

Byleth, Min Min and Aegis (Pyra/Mythra) are probably the most safe.

Not sure on least safe outside of Plant, maybe Sephiroth or Sora?

Does Nintendo own the game or it’s just published?

I think sora is pretty safe for the most part the main issue sora had was Disney.But from what I heard Disney was super cool with sora being in smash so I don't see why they would changed their mind.being in smash is like one of the best form of marketing for your chracther so I don't see why any company would say no

 

[Ivander]

Would Capcom's DmC: Devil May Cry and Bionic Commando (2009) be examples of this?

DmC, probably would. Bionic Commando, not so much because Bionic Commando was already a Western-influenced game, with your character being an army soldier fighting against the Nazis, not unlike Wolfenstein. Sure, Western influence was probably a reason for the graphic and artstyle of BC-2009, but it certainly wouldn't have changed the setting and background of the original unlike what DmC did.

 

[fogbadge]

So, what do we think of Astral Chain nowadays?

well I still look back on it fondly and would love a second one. part of my thinks the next character may be a dark horse pick for the next smash

 

[Gengar84]

So, what do we think of Astral Chain nowadays?

I enjoyed it a lot. If it were up to me, I’d add both Officer Howard and Jena Anderson to Smash. Howard is the obvious pick and has a really cool gameplay hook but Jena just looks so cool and I really enjoyed her character. I think there’s a pretty decent chance we’ll see Howard but I’m not overly optimistic about Jena’s chances. Never say never though.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Like how Persona 1 on the PS1 for some reason was significantly altered to remove lot of the Japanese references.

Oh god, the P1 localisation...

Has anybody seen Sakurai’s latest interview?
https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2...ould-avoid-trying-to-appeal-to-western-tastes

I think this is a neat point. Ultimately, it's difficult to talk on this kinda thing without tripping the landmine - namely, this exact point has kind of been co-opted into a pretty nasty dogwhistle which seems to boil down to "Stop putting POLITICS (see: anything I've deemed "political" because I, a complete buffoon, do not like it) in my VIDEO GAMES", but there's an admirable sentiment behind wanting to shift focus away from just "let's make products to capture the largest possible target market" to "let's make stuff we actually want to make", at least in a vacuum.

Not being Japanese, there's not much I can comment on in terms of specifics, though. It's just neat to see people making games about what they want to make games about.

 

[NotGenerico]

Would Capcom's DmC: Devil May Cry and Bionic Commando (2009) be examples of this?

This has to be the worst example of that trend, right?

 

[DarthEnderX]

DmC, probably would. Bionic Commando, not so much because Bionic Commando was already a Western-influenced game, with your character being an army soldier fighting against the Nazis, not unlike Wolfenstein.

That implies that the original Bionic Commando was Western-influenced just because it was about fighting Nazis.

And if that's the case, than the entire Devil May Cry series, with it's Christian agels/devils themes, is also Western-influenced.

I don't think that's what Sakurai is talking about. A game can be about a Western subject while still being made like a Japanese game.

I mean, would you call Earthbound a Western game?

 

[Gengar84]

Pac Man: Shadow Labyrinth kind of gives me similar vibes to that Bomberman game.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think from the lens of "let's not change an IP that already has an audience to try and get more Americans to play it" is sound wisdom bordering on common knowledge.

I mean, would you call Earthbound a Western game?

Despite being based entirely within American suburbia, and doing a pretty darn good job at capturing that vibe, I wouldn't say so.

Probably has more to do with the fact that it's not doing the whole "Americans love violence and explosions and hate everything whimsical right?" that a lot of things were doing in the early 2000s though. Honestly in that vein the whole thing likely had more to do with the whole visual entertainment industry pivoting toward dark/edgy "realistic" stories and branding any sort of whimsy as "for kids".

I am so glad we're recovering from the grimdark era of media.

 

[Gengar84]

I think from the lens of "let's not change an IP that already has an audience to try and get more Americans to play it" is sound wisdom bordering on common knowledge.


Despite being based entirely within American suburbia, and doing a pretty darn good job at capturing that vibe, I wouldn't say so.

Probably has more to do with the fact that it's not doing the whole "Americans love violence and explosions and hate everything whimsical right?" that a lot of things were doing in the early 2000s though. Honestly in that vein the whole thing likely had more to do with the whole visual entertainment industry pivoting toward dark/edgy "realistic" stories and branding any sort of whimsy as "for kids".

I am so glad we're recovering from the grimdark era of media.

I still really like the “dark and edgy” aesthetic in games. Many of my favorite designs in gaming could fall under that like Legacy of Kain, Darksiders, WarCraft, Killer Instinct and League of Legends. Still, I do think it’s weird when an otherwise cute and friendly game like Bomberman or Pac Man change so much to draw in new audiences. I think it’s funny but I’m not sure it’s the right approach. Those kinds of games are cool but there’s no reason to make every other game change fit to that style.

 

[Perkilator]

Would Capcom's DmC: Devil May Cry and Bionic Commando (2009) be examples of this?

Honestly, I’d say Keiji Inafune’s entire tenure at Capcom can be summed up as this. Many of the Western-focused projects with his name on it have been some of the most infamously hated of all time. Because of that, he’s single-handedly responsible for the rut Capcom found themselves in during the first half of the 2010’s.

Though as for modern-day examples for this, I’d say Square Enix and Bandai Namco are currently stuck in the same rut that Capcom was. Most of it can be chalked up to their respective executives wanting to pursue AAA-scale games 24/7.

 

[Ivander]

That implies that the original Bionic Commando was Western-influenced just because it was about fighting Nazis.

And if that's the case, than the entire Devil May Cry series, with it's Christian agels/devils themes, is also Western-influenced.

I don't think that's what Sakurai is talking about. A game can be about a Western subject while still being made like a Japanese game.

I mean, would you call Earthbound a Western game?

No, I'd call Earthbound a Japanese game influenced by the West, much like Dark Souls and Bloodborne. Sure, Devil May Cry does have Western influences dating back to the original, but DmC definitely took them to the max compared to the original, as it didn't just change in style, but also in setting and background. Whereas with Bionic Commando and Bionic Commando 2009, while the artstyle change could be considered as an attempt to appeal more to the West at the time, that's really all that was there to it, as nothing about Bionic Commando 2009's setting and background changes from the original Bionic Commando.

That's what I was trying to get at. DMC to DmC went from Western-influenced to Western-themed whereas Bionic Commando to 2009 is Western-themed to Western-themed. Basically, one adopted a new identity while the other kept it's identity, even with the artstyle change.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Probably has more to do with the fact that it's not doing the whole "Americans love violence and explosions and hate everything whimsical right?" that a lot of things were doing in the early 2000s though. Honestly in that vein the whole thing likely had more to do with the whole visual entertainment industry pivoting toward dark/edgy "realistic" stories and branding any sort of whimsy as "for kids".

I am so glad we're recovering from the grimdark era of media.

Other examples is how Kirby was angry in the American box arts from the GBA/Gamecube era to the DS/Wii. The exceptions being Super Star Ultra and Epic Yarn. It stopped in the 3DS games onwards (if he is angry then it was also the case in Japan).

The reason why we got Twilight Princess, it’s a great game but the game being more closer to OoT and the artstyle was because of Wind Waker getting backlash because of its artsyle.

 

[dezeray112]

Honestly, I’d say Keiji Inafune’s entire tenure at Capcom can be summed up as this. Many of the Western-focused projects with his name on it have been some of the most infamously hated of all time. Because of that, he’s single-handedly responsible for the rut Capcom found themselves in during the first half of the 2010’s.

Though as for modern-day examples for this, I’d say Square Enix and Bandai Namco are currently stuck in the same rut that Capcom was. Most of it can be chalked up to their respective executives wanting to pursue AAA-scale games 24/7.

If I do recall, wasn't Keiji Inafune a vocal critic when it came to the state of the Japanese gaming industry in contrast to the Western developers once during his tenure with Capcom?"

But then again, a number of projects that attempted to utilise his formula with several Capcom titles didn't quite gave him the results he had hoped for.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

So, what do we think of Astral Chain nowadays?

Considering Sakurai felt Rex and Pyra fighting together wouldn’t be feasible, I imagine that would also be the case for Howard and their Legion, and if they aren’t going to fight side by side like they do in Astral Chain I don’t know if they’d be worth adding.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I still really like the “dark and edgy” aesthetic in games. Many of my favorite designs in gaming could fall under that like Legacy of Kain, Darksiders, WarCraft, Killer Instinct and League of Legends. Still, I do think it’s weird when an otherwise cute and friendly game like Bomberman or Pac Man change so much to draw in new audiences. I think it’s funny but I’m not sure it’s the right approach. Those kinds of games are cool but there’s no reason to make every other game change fit to that style.

Well theres a couple things about that: The first is that there are good grimdark stories. Things like Watchmen, and The Killing Joke popularized it for a reason. The second, more important thing is that dark/edgy is not the same as grimdark. Grimdark is very negative, almost to the point of nihilism or misanthropy. What was more prevelant was gritty realism, at least in terms of aesthetic. Honestly I think the only grimdark game that I can think of off the top of my head is Spec Ops: The Line, and that's a maybe since I don't know too much about it. My problem was more the conflation with grimdark and gritty realism with maturity, and the belief that cartoony stuff is for kids only.

As for your examples, I dunno about Legacy of Kain, but Darksiders and especially Killer Instinct are more focused on how cool the characters and setpeices are than the dark aspects of the story, as those are more for world building. WarCraft and League of Legends can be dark, but on the whole they really aren't.

 

[Perkilator]

Considering Sakurai felt Rex and Pyra fighting together wouldn’t be feasible, I imagine that would also be the case for Howard and their Legion, and if they aren’t going to fight side by side like they do in Astral Chain I don’t know if they’d be worth adding.

That was mainly because of Switch 1 limitations, which I don’t think would be a Switch 2 problem if Officer Howard was a newcomer.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

If I do recall, wasn't Keiji Inafune a vocal critic when it came to the state of the Japanese gaming industry during his tenure in contrast to the Western developers once during his tenure with Capcom?"

But then again, a number of projects that attempted to utilise his formula with several Capcom titles didn't quite gave him the results he had hoped for.

Yeah, his out of touch views of Japanese games took Capcom in a bad direction, then he left the company and made one of the most infamous games of all time, then he started working on NFTs… I think the video game industry is better off without him.

 

[Gengar84]

Well theres a couple things about that: The first is that there are good grimdark stories. Things like Watchmen, and The Killing Joke popularized it for a reason. The second, more important thing is that dark/edgy is not the same as grimdark. Grimdark is very negative, almost to the point of nihilism or misanthropy. What was more prevelant was gritty realism, at least in terms of aesthetic. Honestly I think the only grimdark game that I can think of off the top of my head is Spec Ops: The Line, and that's a maybe since I don't know too much about it. My problem was more the conflation with grimdark and gritty realism with maturity, and the belief that cartoony stuff is for kids only.

As for your examples, I dunno about Legacy of Kain, but Darksiders and especially Killer Instinct are more focused on how cool the characters and setpeices are than the dark aspects of the story, as those are more for world building. WarCraft and League of Legends can be dark, but on the whole they really aren't.

Yeah, that’s fair. I’ve heard the term Grimdark before but I never knew exactly what it was. I’m still not completely sure what does or doesn’t qualify. I’m not sure if things like Dark Souls, Elden Ring, or the Last of Us count. I think I’m more drawn to the “cool factor” for lack of a better term than negative or nihilistic stories, though I’m open to that on occasion. I love stories where the characters actually have to overcome tragedy and hopelessness but they all tend to have somewhat happy or hopeful endings, so they likely wouldn’t count.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

That was mainly because of Switch 1 limitations, which I don’t think would be a Switch 2 problem if Officer Howard was a newcomer.

Even with stronger hardware I’m not so sure (mainly because of 8-player Smash), but maybe.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

You know, I actually liked how Sakurai said that Japanese developers should not, or do not need to listen to Westerners about making games. I mean, if violence and explosions are a Western thing, it probably would not go well for Japan because isn't violence to the point of blood (like Mortal Kombat) frowned over there?

Spoiler: Read at your own risk

Still, I kind of thought, when I first saw that article, that what Sakurai said was being discriminatory. I did see the good side on why he said that, but I decided to read others' thoughts before saying anything.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

You know, I actually liked how Sakurai said that Japanese developers should not, or do not need to listen to Westerners about making games. I mean, if violence and explosions are a Western thing, it probably would not go well for Japan because isn't violence to the point of blood (like Mortal Kombat) frowned over there?

Spoiler: Read at your own risk

Still, I kind of thought, when I first saw that article, that what Sakurai said was being discriminatory. I did see the good side on why he said that, but I decided to read others' thoughts before saying anything.

I would call Nintendo Life out for blatant clickbait, if I was much bolder. The way they worded that title DOES NOT paint the argument in a good light!

 

[CosmicEternity44]

I would call Nintendo Life out for blatant clickbait, if I was much bolder. The way they worded that title DOES NOT paint the argument in a good light!

EXACTLY! It even sounds like, based on what you said, that Sakurai was not being dissimilatory in that article, which is not only a good thing, but to me, a much better thing.

 

[Schnee117]

You know, I actually liked how Sakurai said that Japanese developers should not, or do not need to listen to Westerners about making games. I mean, if violence and explosions are a Western thing, it probably would not go well for Japan because isn't violence to the point of blood (like Mortal Kombat) frowned over there?

It doesn't stop Ninja Gaiden from being extremely bloody and violent or SamSho from letting you cleave characters in half or anything, just needs to be very stylised.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

It doesn't stop Ninja Gaiden from being extremely bloody and violent or SamSho from letting you cleave characters in half or anything, just needs to be very stylised.

Really? I said this multiple times before, but still...that's interesting.

 

[Shinuto]

Considering Sakurai felt Rex and Pyra fighting together wouldn’t be feasible, I imagine that would also be the case for Howard and their Legion, and if they aren’t going to fight side by side like they do in Astral Chain I don’t know if they’d be worth adding.

Yeah but that was switch, this is Switch 2

 

[Gengar84]

It doesn't stop Ninja Gaiden from being extremely bloody and violent or SamSho from letting you cleave characters in half or anything, just needs to be very stylised.

Yeah, I feel like it would have been a good idea for Mortal Kombat to tone itself down just a bit to put it inline with games like Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, and Samurai Showdown. That way it could keep its bloody and violent appeal while not being outright banned in Japan. I’m not sure how many fans would drop the series if they scaled the gore back a bit. That’s never why I liked the game personally so I’d be more than happy with the change. It would probably be good for the employees to so they wouldn’t get PTSD from having to study gory imagery.

 

[Dukefire]

Has anybody seen Sakurai’s latest interview?
https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2...ould-avoid-trying-to-appeal-to-western-tastes

It is good to maintain stability while trying to avoid compromising for the western's taste.
TBH, western side has been......more on the negative or even crazy stuff that are questionable to ask why it was ok.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Yeah, I feel like it would have been a good idea for Mortal Kombat to tone itself down just a bit to put it inline with games like Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, and Samurai Showdown. That way it could keep its bloody and violent appeal while not being outright banned in Japan. I’m not sure how many fans would drop the series if they scaled the gore back a bit. That’s never why I liked the game personally so I’d be more than happy with the change. It would probably be good for the employees to so they wouldn’t get PTSD from having to study gory imagery.

The T-1000 has an Easter Egg where whenever he's subjected to any X-Ray moves, you don't see bones or organs, just liquid metal. They could repurpose the assets from that to tone down X-Rays for Japan, but I don't know if they did anything similar to alter Fatality animations for him or just slapped a liquid metal texture on the gore.

 

[Gengar84]

The T-1000 has an Easter Egg where whenever he's subjected to any X-Ray moves, you don't see bones or organs, just liquid metal. They could repurpose the assets from that to tone down X-Rays for Japan, but I don't know if they did anything similar to alter Fatality animations for him or just slapped a liquid metal texture on the gore.

I was talking about toning the games down at the start moreso than altering them for Japan once they’re already done. Maybe the backlash would be too strong to be worth it from fans that love the detailed gore but I’m more than happy with Bayonetta styled violence.

 

[dezeray112]

Yeah, his out of touch views of Japanese games took Capcom in a bad direction, then he left the company and made one of the most infamous games of all time, then he started working on NFTs… I think the video game industry is better off without him.

Thought this might be a good insight to watch. Other than that, I do recall a time when he started a kickstarter with Mighty No. 9 which was a success in terms of how much it racked within its funds. But as time went on, it ended up being a project that signified Inafune's downfall.

Yeah, I feel like it would have been a good idea for Mortal Kombat to tone itself down just a bit to put it inline with games like Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, and Samurai Showdown. That way it could keep its bloody and violent appeal while not being outright banned in Japan. I’m not sure how many fans would drop the series if they scaled the gore back a bit. That’s never why I liked the game personally so I’d be more than happy with the change. It would probably be good for the employees to so they wouldn’t get PTSD from having to study gory imagery.

The only time that I do recall Mortal Kombat having to tone down its violent appeal (mainly its finishing moves) was back during Mortal Kombat Vs DC Universe solely to keep its tone in line ESRB rating. Not sure whether the game was released in Japan at the time.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

If the MK developers at all cared about not being released in Japan, they would make a toned down version already to be graded by CERO for even the Z rating. It's not unheard of for games to have altered versions in Japan for sale with the biggest example that comes to mind being some of the Resident Evil remakes having slightly toned down versions that are D rated and the advertised "Z-Rated" edition that is pretty much what the international release is.

But the fact is they don't need to. Mortal Kombat is already an 83 million+ grossing franchise without the countries that bar it from sale (not just Japan) so why would they need to tone down what is their clear vision for the franchise and what it's known for to release in markets that don't really matter in the long run commercially?

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Everyone, with what Sakurai said about Japanese games and Western fans or whatever...

Does this mean that the chances for Sakurai not adding back in game cutscenes for Smash Bros. has gone up, especially if he goes by what he said and not listen to Western fans?

I am kidding, of course.

 

[BrawlX10]

Don't know what it's chances are now, but more playable characters from new IPs is always nice.

I can see Astral Chain getting a rep even if it's not as popular as it was in 2019, i think it's popular enough and has still the posibility of a sequel happening, plus the moveset potential is HUGE.
Ayumi is also in a similar boat, even through her series isn't super well known, i think she would still be a fun adition, i feel like she's the type of character Sakurai likes to be creative with and also has the adventage of having a remake and a new game in her series. (Not that new games always help, through)

Honestly i don't think every newcomer next game (base game or DLC, but specially base game) needs to be a super popular character like Waluigi, Bandana Dee, Meowscarada or Tom Nook. I think it's fine if they add 2 or 3 characters that are like Astral Chain or Ayumi.