Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

Say, are we sure characters from one company can hinder other characters from the same company in terms of their chances of getting into Smash Bros.? I mean, Banjo-Kazooie and Steve from Microsoft were added before Master Chief from the same company. I mean, Master Chief has not been on a Nintendo console before, and Steve and Banjo-Kazooie had different, significant reasons for getting in before Master Chief, but Master Chief is like an important character to Microsoft, is he not? Plus, while characters are chosen, I do not think it has to do that much with priorities, aside from promotions, of course. Now, I think Sakurai does choose characters independently from how many characters a company has, maybe to an extent, so correct me if I am wrong. It is just that, to me, Microsoft, and companies like Square Enix, have a lot of characters, so they not? That doesn’t mean there is competition between them in the mind of Sakurai, or at least, that much competition intentionally.

I don’t know for sure if they do but I don’t think they should. Especially in the case of Microsoft where they just buy out other companies with very different histories. RARE, Activision, Blizzard, and Bethesda all had their own separate origins and most characters people want from them came before their mergers or acquisitions. I don’t think them all being owned by Microsoft should negatively impact them. Whether it does or not is another question only Sakurai and Nintendo have the answer to. I think most characters should get in for themselves as characters rather than company or game representation.

 

[Kirbeh]

The solution is to stop treating these games like rotating casts and just regard them as individual entries. Not just FE, but XB and TLOZ too.

Now give me all 3H leaders/other leads + assorted units, all the BOTW Champions/other one-shots and the XB1/2/3 party members.

 

[RileyXY1]

The solution is to stop treating these games like rotating casts and just regard them as individual entries. Not just FE, but XB and TLOZ too.

Now give me all 3H leaders/other leads + assorted units, all the BOTW Champions/other one-shots and the XB1/2/3 party members.

Pokémon as well, considering that nearly all their newcomers are just designed to promote the most recent entry.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

I don’t know for sure if they do but I don’t think they should. Especially in the case of Microsoft where they just buy out other companies with very different histories. RARE, Activision, Blizzard, and Bethesda all had their own separate origins and most characters people want from them came before their mergers or acquisitions. I don’t think them all being owned by Microsoft should negatively impact them. Whether it does or not is another question only Sakurai and Nintendo have the answer to.

Agreed, though I was not talking about Microsoft or bought companies, but characters owned and created by one company, even though that may be a different story from the case of companies from Microsoft.

Still, if I read your post correctly, companies bought out by other companies should be looked at from their own merits if you know what I mean.

 

[Stratos]

If they add Phoenix Wright, how much do you think they’d borrow from Marvel vs Capcom? Do you think Smash would try to do something different with him instead?

Maybe they will also give him the moves he had in Tatsunoko vs. Capcom: Ultimate All-Stars and/or the moves he had in Project X Zone 2.

 

[Gengar84]

Agreed, though I was not talking about Microsoft or bought companies, but characters owned and created by one company, even though that may be a different story from the case of companies from Microsoft.

Still, if I read your post correctly, companies bought out by other companies should be looked at from their own merits if you know what I mean.

Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about with the Microsoft example. In general, I think characters should get in because of their own merits and popularity rather than as a representation from a game or company. Getting too many characters from the same game might be less exciting but I don’t think they should be excluded from consideration. For example, Chun-Li would be our third Street Fighter character but she’s more than earned her spot despite that. While I’d personally rather see a character from a new IP, I’d totally understand going with Chun-Li for her legacy.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about with the Microsoft example. In general, I think characters should get in because of their own merits and popularity rather than as a representation from a game or company. Getting too many characters from the same game might be less exciting but I don’t think they should be excluded from consideration. For example, Chun-Li would be our third Street Fighter character but she’s more than earned her spot despite that. While I’d personally rather see a character from a new IP, I’d totally understand going with Chun-Li for her legacy.

That is all along the lines of what I am thinking, Gengar! I do agree with the same game thing in terms of characters. I would not mind Chun-Li, or at least one more character from Final Fantasy as a whole, preferably Black Mage.

I do think Final Fantasy has much more notable characters than Street Fighter, no offense to fans of the latter, but yeah. At least one more Final Fantasy character, preferably not from VII, wouldn’t hurt.

Still, what you said, I agree with.

 

[Gengar84]

That is all along the lines of what I am thinking, Gengar! I do agree with the same game thing in terms of characters. I would not mind Chun-Li, or at least one more character from Final Fantasy as a whole, preferably Black Mage.

I do think Final Fantasy has much more notable characters than Street Fighter, no offense to fans of the latter, but yeah. At least one more Final Fantasy character, preferably not from VII, wouldn’t hurt.

Still, what you said, I agree with.

I’m not sure on that, other than maybe FFVII, I’d say that Street Fighter’s characters are generally more iconic than Final Fantasy’s. I say that as someone whose favorite franchise at one point was Final Fantasy (FFVII-FFX). There’s lots of characters from both series I’d be excited to see in Smash.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

I’m not sure on that, other than maybe FFVII, I’d say that Street Fighter characters are generally more iconic than Final Fantasy’s. I say that as someone whose favorite franchise at one point was Final Fantasy (FFVII-FFX). There’s lots of characters from both series I’d be excited to see in Smash.

I may have misspoken there. I meant Final Fantasy games have different characters per game across the series, so I thought there was a chance there were a good number of notable characters from that series. Street Fighter has lots of notable characters too. I just can’t see them getting all in Smash. Same for Final Fantasy.

But, whether in one company or one company with many bought ones, each character from each company should rather be chosen through their own merits, their own criteria. Take Crash Bandicoot, for example. He has a lot of history. Why just pick him as an Activision or Microsoft character?

 

[Gengar84]

I may have misspoken there. I meant Final Fantasy games have different characters per game across the series, so I thought there was a chance there were a good number of notable characters from that series. Street Fighter has lots of notable characters too. I just can’t see them getting all in Smash. Same for Final Fantasy.

But, whether in one company or one company with many bought ones, each character from each company should rather be chosen through their own merits, their own criteria. Take Crash Bandicoot, for example. He has a lot of history. Why just pick him as an Activision or Microsoft character?

Yeah, exactly. If they go with Crash it should be because people like him as a character. It shouldn’t have anything to do with representing Activision. Thankfully, I think that’s the way Smash already operates. Different companies being easier to negotiate with might influence their chances but I don’t think there’s any obligation to evenly represent all the third party companies.

On the topic of Final Fantasy and Street Fighter, here’s a few of my favorite characters from each:

Final Fantasy:

Vincent Valentine
Sephiroth
Lulu
Princess Garnet
Amarant Coral

Street Fighter:

Guile
Vega
Juri Han
Cammy
Deejay

Thankfully, I already got one of these characters in Smash but I don’t have a ton of hope for any of the others.

 

[Wonder Smash]

If they add Phoenix Wright, how much do you think they’d borrow from Marvel vs Capcom? Do you think Smash would try to do something different with him instead?

I think they would have a different moveset. The one he had in UMvC3 doesn't really translate well into Smash (he has nothing for an Up Special, for example). He would still use elements from his series, though. We don't have any visual novel characters in Smash yet so coming up with ideas for his moveset is a bit hard.

Maybe they will also give him the moves he had in Tatsunoko vs. Capcom: Ultimate All-Stars and/or the moves he had in Project X Zone 2.

Tatsunoko vs. Capcom? He wasn't in that game (though he was planned).

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

Yeah, exactly. If they go with Crash it should be because people like him as a character. It shouldn’t have anything to do with representing Activision. Thankfully, I think that’s the way Smash already operates. Different companies being easier to negotiate with might influence their chances but I don’t think there’s any obligation to evenly represent all the third party companies.

On the topic of Final Fantasy and Street Fighter, here’s a few of my favorite characters from each:

Final Fantasy:

Vincent Valentine
Sephiroth
Lulu
Princess Garnet
Amarant Coral

Street Fighter:

Guile
Vega
Juri Han
Cammy
Deejay

Thankfully, I already got one of these characters in Smash but I don’t have a ton of hope for any of the others.

Pretty cool list, Gengar.

Anyway, I think when it comes to adding characters into Smash, they should be based on star power, (importance in their series, gaming, etc.) their history, what they have done recently and maybe Sakurai’s opinion on the character. In fact, I do believe that is, in a few ways, what happens. Fans are too focused with company competition it seems, the idea of slots and all.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

Another video with good ideas for the next smash game. This guy goes a good amount into what the power of the switch 2 could improve on for smash. I like his idea of stage morph having more available stage options to change through or just having a random stage to change to in stage morph.

 

[Gengar84]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

Another video with good ideas for the next smash game. This guy goes a good amount into what the power of the switch 2 could improve on for smash. I like his idea of stage morph having more available stage options to change through or just having a random stage to change to in stage morph.

Thanks, I’ll check it out when I get out of work.

 

[Dukefire]

Say, are we sure characters from one company can hinder other characters from the same company in terms of their chances of getting into Smash Bros.? I mean, Banjo-Kazooie and Steve from Microsoft were added before Master Chief from the same company. I mean, Master Chief has not been on a Nintendo console before, and Steve and Banjo-Kazooie had different, significant reasons for getting in before Master Chief, but Master Chief is like an important character to Microsoft, is he not? Plus, while characters are chosen, I do not think it has to do that much with priorities, aside from promotions, of course. Now, I think Sakurai does choose characters independently from how many characters a company has, maybe to an extent, so correct me if I am wrong. It is just that, to me, Microsoft, and companies like Square Enix, have a lot of characters, so they not? That doesn’t mean there is competition between them in the mind of Sakurai, or at least, that much competition intentionally.

That is an explanation that will require some time to process. For Sakurai, him and the team's goal was to bring characters from their home series and make them feel like how they operate in their game. Even as far to make them easier to play for any player to pick up via Kirbyism idea with simple controls. Of course, there are many characters that call home to one company like Microsoft (Master Chief, Doom Slayer, Lara Croft, etc.) and Sony (Astro Bot, 2B, Sly Cooper, etc.).
We cannot truly understand the long thoughts into making a decision based on deals, design and the other details to make the character stand out from others (Hero from Dragon Quest with MP for spells and Kazuya with button inputs and RAGE from Tekken). We can still understand with empathy, but not all will follow the same mentality due to their wishes and/or expectation being built differently.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

That is an explanation that will require some time to process. For Sakurai, him and the team's goal was to bring characters from their home series and make them feel like how they operate in their game. Even as far to make them easier to play for any player to pick up via Kirbyism idea with simple controls. Of course, there are many characters that call home to one company like Microsoft (Master Chief, Doom Slayer, Lara Croft, etc.) and Sony (Astro Bot, 2B, Sly Cooper, etc.).
We cannot truly understand the long thoughts into making a decision based on deals, design and the other details to make the character stand out from others (Hero from Dragon Quest with MP for spells and Kazuya with button inputs and RAGE from Tekken). We can still understand with empathy, but not all will follow the same mentality due to their wishes and/or expectation being built differently.

I understand that. Even then, though, as I said, characters should be judged by their own merits, not what company they are from. Deciding based on company and company competition between characters does not describe a character’s importance in gaming and other factors. Plus, I do find character competition within companies to be unfair for characters, partially because of how ignores their being picked on their own merits thing.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Maybe could add “Athlete” as a Mii type alongside “Mage”

I dunno if video games have enough athlete characters to justify that. While there's hundreds of video game mages.

Run & guns are easier to envision, Metal Slug or Contra or even Gunstar Heroes, perhaps.

I don't think Contra and Metal Slug are a different genre than Mega Man.

If they add Phoenix Wright, how much do you think they’d borrow from Marvel vs Capcom? Do you think Smash would try to do something different with him instead?

They might give him a different gimmick. But all his normals and specials will probably come from MvC.

It’s not Nintendo that’s the problem. It’s Sakurai. He outright expressed some concern that Fire Emblem may be overrepresented

Doesn't sound like a problem to me.

 

[Dukefire]

I understand that. Even then, though, as I said, characters should be judged by their own merits, not what company they are from. Deciding based on company and company competition between characters does not describe a character’s importance in gaming and other factors. Plus, I do find character competition within companies to be unfair for characters, partially because of how ignores their being picked on their own merits thing.

Not everyone can be winners with our character(s) choice on joining smash bros due to the vast amount of characters waiting. Returning and/or newcomers is the double edge sword that bring in hype no matter the reveal's reaction. Honestly, any character can do as long they originate as a video game character and is fair*. I can say this for certain characters.
Indie: Gaming has gone far that even smaller companies (even by just one person alone) can match or even surpass Triple A at times. They have joined the ranks for Runner up, so they could join if deals are done correctly (Shovel Knight, Sans, Shantae, Cuphead, etc.)
Crash Bandicoot or Spyro: A long dream for the third challenger during the console wars in the 90s has finally arrived/returned.
Doom Slayer: if the hell's influence from the game series can be toned down, then it will be great to see the Grandfather of FPS join.

*sometimes it is decided by advertisement of a recent new series regardless of relevance or popularity. Which Geno and Waluigi fans tend to get VERY sour about it. Not to be mean.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

Not everyone can be winners with our character(s) choice on joining smash bros due to the vast amount of characters waiting. Returning and/or newcomers is the double edge sword that bring in hype no matter the reveal's reaction. Honestly, any character can do as long they originate as a video game character and is fair*. I can say this for certain characters.
Indie: Gaming has gone far that even smaller companies (even by just one person alone) can match or even surpass Triple A at times. They have joined the ranks for Runner up, so they could join if deals are done correctly (Shovel Knight, Sans, Shantae, Cuphead, etc.)
Crash Bandicoot or Spyro: A long dream for the third challenger during the console wars in the 90s has finally arrived/returned.
Doom Slayer: if the hell's influence from the game series can be toned down, then it will be great to see the Grandfather of FPS join.

*sometimes it is decided by advertisement of a recent new series regardless of relevance or popularity. Which Geno and Waluigi fans tend to get VERY sour about it. Not to be mean.

Yeah, I can see that. In regards to the first part you said, not every character, old or new, will make it into Smash Bros. as playables which adds to the fact that not everyone can win. In fact, I think that has some fans worried for their characters that they think there is competition within companies without focusing on the merits part.

 

[Kirbeh]

I dunno if video games have enough athlete characters to justify that. While there's hundreds of video game mages.

Does there have to be a list of specific characters for that to be justified though? Isn't the entire point of the Mii Fighters to try and create whoever you want? They're not just a vehicle for selling costumes if that's where this angle is coming from.

Even then, not like there's a shortage of characters who could be placed here anyway. If you're looking for characters that throw balls and swing bats Capcom alone has the Dead Rising protagonists and a decent chunk of the Rival Schools cast.

 

[Stratos]

I think they would have a different moveset. The one he had in UMvC3 doesn't really translate well into Smash (he has nothing for an Up Special, for example). He would still use elements from his series, though. We don't have any visual novel characters in Smash yet so coming up with ideas for his moveset is a bit hard.



Tatsunoko vs. Capcom? He wasn't in that game (though he was planned).

That's right, I read it wrong, Phoenix Wright wasn't in Tatsunoko vs. Capcom: Ultimate All-Stars, although now that I read it it said he would be there, but for some reason they didn't put him in. Thanks for correcting me.

 

[The Prankster 16]

Engage moreso underperformed than outright failed. It sold about half of what Three Houses did (a major sin when the expectation for modern corporations is infinite growth) and it doesn’t get referenced a lot in Heroes relative to when Echoes and Three Houses were new, but 2 million copies is still respectable.

None of that really matters if the project plan was drafted in 2021, though. We know from Engage’s files that the game was complete at that time, so Sakurai could have been aware of Alear and added them.

I think the bigger issue is the general pushback against Fire Emblem’s presence on Smash’s roster. Byleth already being a Switch-era Fire Emblem rep may also serve as deterrents against adding an additional Fire Emblem newcomer from Engage. Corrin and Byleth also had the advantage of the dev team and Nintendo pushing for their inclusion, respectively, which may not be the case for Alear.

I think Alear is probably gonna be in but there's still a couple issues I have with their inclusion:

1. Their design is just unappealing to me and that seems to be a common opinion. That alongside the fact that Engage as a game isn't the greatest just makes thier inclusion seem way more like an obligation, rather than something I could actually look forward to.

2. With the Engage mechanic, the two ways I see it working is either taking moves from veteran FE characters that did not make it back for SSB6, or using moves inspired by characters that haven't been included yet. The first one just seems unlikely simply because you could always bring back those veterans as DLC, and then you're basically left with ANOTHER FE clone. And with the second approach, it could be really cool: Some sword moves from Lyn, Axes from Hector, a Dash on a Horse from Sigurd, maybe even some Magic attacks from Celica or Micaiah. However...

3. Why not just include one of those characters that people actually like and want rather than Alear? Sure they might not be relevant at the moment, but neither was Chrom and he was included in Ultimate! Heck, if you're planning on using moves from Sigurd, why not wait until that FE4 remake is finally announced and add Sigurd himself in? (plus, they could bring back the type weaknesses from Brawl and we'd finally have a second character weak to fire attacks )

 

[Ivander]

That's right, I read it wrong, he wasn't in Tatsunoko vs. Capcom: Ultimate All-Stars, although now that I read it it said he would be there, but for some reason they didn't put him in.

He was one of the characters planned for Tatsunoko vs Capcom, but at the time, they had trouble working on the speech bubbles because of the language barrier since some words were bigger in one language or the other. They eventually figured out how to work him for UMvC3.

 

[Louie G.]

Say, are we sure characters from one company can hinder other characters from the same company in terms of their chances of getting into Smash Bros.?

I think it's overstated how much this matters, where if two characters from the same company have strong merit they can get in alongside one another. The scenario where we see Chun-Li and Monster Hunter / Dante, or a second Sonic character and Arle / Kiryu are not that unrealistic. And demonstrably it's going to matter even less when assessing DLC, since we got 2-3 Square Enix characters last time and 2 Microsoft characters, etc.

But it's not not relevant either. I mentioned around two new characters at a time, but I think that's about the threshold before it starts to get noticeable. Yes, some companies like Capcom have an infinite wealth of characters to add... but if we saw three or four brand new Capcom characters and then nothing from Sega, Namco etc then it would probably stand out a good amount no matter what. I want to say it shouldn't matter whatsoever but I'm sure Nintendo wants to be at least a little bit fair to their collaborators and also have further interest than just exploring the libraries of one or two companies exclusively.

So that's the nuance to this argument, at least. Bottom line, saying "Chun-Li can't get in if Dante does" is dumb. But saying "Chun-Li, Dante, Monster Hunter and Phoenix Wright won't all be added" is probably accurate.

 

[Pupp135]

In terms of Fie Emblem discussion, I fine with the number that we have, and I actually wanted Byleth since I was just getting into Three Houses right before her/his reveal, and I still find her/him to be a fun fighter along with Robin and Corrin. Even though I‘m fine with having eight fighters, I assume that Fire Emblem will take a decent hit next game, with Roy/Chrom and Corrin being the lowest hanging fruits in terms of cuts given precedence on Roy’s priority and Corrin being a divisive character.

In terms of a new fighter, I just think the timing doesn’t line up at the moment for a fighter from a new game whether it’s Alear or a character from an upcoming Fire Emblem game. Although the promotional character would at best be DLC, a legacy pick like Tiki, Lyn, or Veronica could be cool to see.

In the end, I think 5-7 fighters would work well for the next game, especially with this selection below:

Marth (effective mascot)
Ike (popular character, long term SSB fighter, and heavy swordfighter)
Lucina (popular character from series Renaissance and easy Marth clone)
Robin (character from series Renaissance and incorporates weapon durability/tomes)
Byleth (character from series peak on consoles, keeps things contemporary, and weapon triangle)
Tiki/Lyn/Veronica (Tiki and Lyn are popular legacy picks, and Veronica is a popular choice from one of Nintendo’s biggest mobile games)

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Is it weird to say I really want valve content to come next game, but not necessarily in the form of fighters?

Like, a Portal Gun item or even stage builder prop, maybe a Glados boss fight where you have to go through a series of sections and puzzles before a nerve gas timer ends? Heavy assist trophy or maybe even 2Fort as a stage? Utter pipedream, but imagine a Market Gardener that functions like a melee weapon but spikes people if you land on them in the air. A Gman assist trophy where he freezes the screen for whoever summoned him, a variant of the box item that when broken explodes out a bunch of headcrabs. Heck, the crowbar would also make a fun generic melee weapon.

In terms of a fighter rep, I'm honestly not all that interested in the hypothetical movesets I've seen for Chell, Heavy, Gordon, and whatnot. I believe there's a stipulation at Valve that any collaborations they do can't be sold for profit, which is why Dead By Daylight and Payday 2's collabs ended up being free, so ig if it were to happen it's have to be base roster. Still, I doubt we get anything, though I'd be jazzed to have any of the above stuff.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

I think it's overstated how much this matters, where if two characters from the same company have strong merit they can get in alongside one another. The scenario where we see Chun-Li and Monster Hunter / Dante, or a second Sonic character and Arle / Kiryu are not that unrealistic. And demonstrably it's going to matter even less when assessing DLC, since we got 2-3 Square Enix characters last time and 2 Microsoft characters, etc.

But it's not not relevant either. I mentioned around two new characters at a time, but I think that's about the threshold before it starts to get noticeable. Yes, some companies like Capcom have an infinite wealth of characters to add... but if we saw three or four brand new Capcom characters and then nothing from Sega, Namco etc then it would probably stand out a good amount no matter what. I want to say it shouldn't matter whatsoever but I'm sure Nintendo wants to be at least a little bit fair to their collaborators and also have further interest than just exploring the libraries of one or two companies exclusively.

So that's the nuance to this argument, at least. Bottom line, saying "Chun-Li can't get in if Dante does" is dumb. But saying "Chun-Li, Dante, Monster Hunter and Phoenix Wright probably won't all be added" is probably accurate.

Those are pretty much my thoughts. I think if character competition within companies did matter, we would not get something like Minecraft’s Steve after Banjo and Kazooie got in.

 

[Perkilator]

Re: Unlockable characters
Stepping away from veterans for a second, what hypothetical newcomers can you see being unlockable in the next Smash game’s base roster?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Fire Emblem in Smash 6 for many people is seen as complex to analyze, but imo it's actually rather clear cut. Marth, Ike, Robin and Byleth from OG Fighters are coming back and Lucina from the clones is coming back too. That's 5. I see the chances of a Fire Emblem newcomer debuting as less and less the more time goes so I think these 5 as the Fire Emblem characters to represent the face of the series, the most popular character, 2 reps as special attention to the game that saved the series and a rep from the biggest name of the series as perfect representation pretty much.

I think so too. Except I see Lucina and Chrom potentially sharing a move set, a more unique one. And then they'd be Echoes of each other.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Re: Unlockable characters
Stepping away from veterans for a second, what hypothetical newcomers can you see being unlockable in the next Smash game’s base roster?

I can see characters like Shadow, Chun-Li, Isaac, or new echoes being unlockable.

 

[BrawlX10]

I think it's overstated how much this matters, where if two characters from the same company have strong merit they can get in alongside one another. The scenario where we see Chun-Li and Monster Hunter / Dante, or a second Sonic character and Arle / Kiryu are not that unrealistic. And demonstrably it's going to matter even less when assessing DLC, since we got 2-3 Square Enix characters last time and 2 Microsoft characters, etc.

But it's not not relevant either. I mentioned around two new characters at a time, but I think that's about the threshold before it starts to get noticeable. Yes, some companies like Capcom have an infinite wealth of characters to add... but if we saw three or four brand new Capcom characters and then nothing from Sega, Namco etc then it would probably stand out a good amount no matter what. I want to say it shouldn't matter whatsoever but I'm sure Nintendo wants to be at least a little bit fair to their collaborators and also have further interest than just exploring the libraries of one or two companies exclusively.

So that's the nuance to this argument, at least. Bottom line, saying "Chun-Li can't get in if Dante does" is dumb. But saying "Chun-Li, Dante, Monster Hunter and Phoenix Wright won't all be added" is probably accurate.

I think this fanbase has a problem with "patterns" and "fan rules" in general. They genuinely believe that a bunch of coincidences create an unbreakable rule.

For example: "Fighter Pass 1 and Fighter Pass 2 from Ultimate didn't have two characters from the same company (except Nintendo) in the pass," so they assume it's impossible for, say, Morrigan and Dante to both be in Fighter Pass 1 of Smash 6, even though Sakurai has never stated this.

Another example is the Assist Trophy thing: "If a character is an Assist Trophy, they can't be DLC!" Just because it's never happened before, they think it can't ever happen. Let's say Isaac is an Assist Trophy in Smash 6—they could easily upgrade him to DLC for Fighter Pass 1 by removing the Isaac Assist Trophy and replacing it with another Golden Sun character, like Felix. Done.

The only official rule we have is that characters like Goku or Spongebob won't join the battle, that's it.

 

[SPEN18]

Re: Unlockable characters
Stepping away from veterans for a second, what hypothetical newcomers can you see being unlockable in the next Smash game’s base roster?

A perhaps obvious answer would be any kind of retro and/or surprise character, like say Excitebiker.
I could also see a more relevant but smaller series rep like Ayumi.
Another fun scenario is one where we get two newcomers from the same series, with one a starter and one an unlockable. Imagine, say, a BotW/TotK rep is on the starting roster but then you still unlock Skull Kid 100 matches in. Or imagine Tom Nook gets revealed early as our Animal Crossing rep, and nobody is surprised, but then when the game is actually released we find out that KK is waiting in the weeds as well. Like I said, that would be a fun scenario.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I think this fanbase has a problem with "patterns" and "fan rules" in general. They genuinely believe that a bunch of coincidences create an unbreakable rule.

For example: "Fighter Pass 1 and Fighter Pass 2 from Ultimate didn't have two characters from the same company (except Nintendo) in the pass," so they assume it's impossible for, say, Morrigan and Dante to both be in Fighter Pass 1 of Smash 6, even though Sakurai has never stated this.

Another example is the Assist Trophy thing: "If a character is an Assist Trophy, they can't be DLC!" Just because it's never happened before, they think it can't ever happen. Let's say Isaac is an Assist Trophy in Smash 6—they could easily upgrade him to DLC for Fighter Pass 1 by removing the Isaac Assist Trophy and replacing it with another Golden Sun character, like Felix. Done.

The only official rule we have is that characters like Goku or Spongebob won't join the battle, that's it.

I think the only reason why that assist trophy one wasn’t even shown off is because outside of Plant, every first party DLC character are either characters that missed their chance (Pyra/Mythra/Min Min) or promotional (Byleth).

Smash 4 only had Corrin as a new DLC first party character. The rest were either returning characters or 3rd party.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Does there have to be a list of specific characters for that to be justified though? Isn't the entire point of the Mii Fighters to try and create whoever you want? They're not just a vehicle for selling costumes if that's where this angle is coming from.

I think their primary appeal of Miis at this point is getting more video game characters into Smash that can't afford to get an entire Fighter.

The CAC aspect is secondary at this point.

If a new Mii Fighter isn't able to represent a common gaming archetype, it's not worth it.

Say, are we sure characters from one company can hinder other characters from the same company in terms of their chances of getting into Smash Bros.?

Hero, Sephiroth and Sora were all added in the same game. So I'm gonna say no.

Is it weird to say I really want valve content to come next game, but not necessarily in the form of fighters?

A little. Gimmie Freeman.

 

[smashkirby]

What does a "niche" or "obscure" character mean to you? (Note that niche and obscure aren't the same thing.)
I've seen this term thrown a lot in Smash Speculation and seems like everyone has their own meaning of the words, some people use it to troll or be annoying, sure, but let's ignore those people for this question.

I suppose both labels are liable to overlap more often than not, both my personal thoughts on the subject is that 'niche' is something that doesn't have the 'broadest appeal' (Fire Emblem/JRPGs in general, Style Savvy, Pilotwings, etc.) and 'obscure' is something that just straight-up isn't that well-known (Mole Mania, Kururin, Doshin, etc.).

Re: Unlockable characters
Stepping away from veterans for a second, what hypothetical newcomers can you see being unlockable in the next Smash game’s base roster?

Ngl, if not because their debuts would be so late into Smash's life cycle, I wonder if folks like Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, and Tom Nook would be hidden.

Of course, characters like Ayumi Tachibana, Takamaru, or Ashley Mizuki Robbins would probably work as secret fighters, but I'm not holding out hope for those guys...

 

[Kirbeh]

I think their primary appeal of Miis at this point is getting more video game characters into Smash that can't afford to get an entire Fighter.

The CAC aspect is secondary at this point.

If a new Mii Fighter isn't able to represent a common gaming archetype, it's not worth it.

I mean, if the CAC aspect of your CAC character is secondary, are the Miis worth having at all? I'd much rather get 3 more unique characters than costumes I have to pay for on a CAC movesets I don't even want to play.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Another example is the Assist Trophy thing: "If a character is an Assist Trophy, they can't be DLC!" Just because it's never happened before, they think it can't ever happen. Let's say Isaac is an Assist Trophy in Smash 6—they could easily upgrade him to DLC for Fighter Pass 1 by removing the Isaac Assist Trophy and replacing it with another Golden Sun character, like Felix. Done.

I know the intention is that "it's never happened before, but we have no proof that it can't actually happen" but like this example is just kinda screaming the old "What if we get Spring Man and they change the Assist Trophy to Springtron?" thing from pre-Min Min discussion lol

Also I find it very unlikely that Nintendo would make a niche GBA RPG character who hasn't had a game in 15 years a DLC character just from a business perspective

 

[Thegameandwatch]

What if we get Spring Man and they change the Assist Trophy to Springtron?" thing from pre-Min Min discussion lol

I feel like people wanting Waluigi, Shadow and other characters that became assist trophies was likely why the discussion was somewhat common since they wanted clarification.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I know the intention is that "it's never happened before, but we have no proof that it can't actually happen" but like this example is just kinda screaming the old "What if we get Spring Man and they change the Assist Trophy to Springtron?" thing from pre-Min Min discussion lol

Which raises a good point. What would even be the odds that a character is decided as an Assist, then they change their mind and said character gets promoted later through DLC?

Whether or not it "can" happen is one story (the one time it could have happened because ARMS character and it didn't), but there's really no compelling reason to do it unless the character in question didn't actually have a shot for the base roster because they weren't an option during the project proposal (i.e. Spring Man, who again, got passed over for someone else through DLC).

Also I find it very unlikely that Nintendo would make a niche GBA RPG character who hasn't had a game in 15 years a DLC character just from a business perspective

Case in point; if Isaac once again was decided for a non-fighter role for the base roster.....why would it be decided to "promote" him later instead of focusing on characters who didn't have a chance to be rejected for the roster?

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Which raises a good point. What would even be the odds that a character is decided as an Assist, then they change their mind and said character gets promoted later through DLC?

Whether or not it "can" happen is one story (the one time it could have happened because ARMS character and it didn't), but there's really no compelling reason to do it unless the character in question didn't actually have a shot for the base roster because they weren't an option during the project proposal (i.e. Spring Man, who again, got passed over for someone else through DLC).

Case in point; if Isaac once again was decided for a non-fighter role for the base roster.....why would it be decided to "promote" him later instead of focusing on characters who didn't have a chance to be rejected for the roster?

Like, small side tangent, I don't think it got brought up much during Smash 4 DLC discussion unless I'm just forgetting because it's been so long, but like I could have seen Isaac as DLC then! Dark Dawn was 2010, more recent than Punch-Out Wii for Mac, so Isaac could've been added in about the same time frame as Min Min or Pyra/Mythra were, and he wasn't an AT in Smash 4, Golden Sun just had nothing to its name, so nobody really expected anything out of it lol

Currently though, I feel like Isaac's chances are base game or nothing because now it's been like 15 years. I do think he has a shot for base game because of all the content Golden Sun received pointing to a credible level of popularity as a request, so he's in a position that's been given an upgrade in the past, but like he doesn't have enough general consciousness to be sold on his own as opposed to being part of a full roster.