Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[ninjahmos]

Re: Unlockable characters
Stepping away from veterans for a second, what hypothetical newcomers can you see being unlockable in the next Smash game’s base roster?

Possibly Waluigi, Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, Tom Nook, Shadow and Chun-Li.

 

[Dinoman96]

Yeah, if Smash 4 and Ultimate are indication, the only first parties that seem to have a shot at DLC are the ones from contemporary Nintendo games that missed the boat for the base game (Fire Emblem Fates, Fire Emblem Three Houses, ARMS and Xenoblade 2). Even if Isaac wasn't already an AT, he wasn't going to be DLC anyways (just ask characters like Saki and Jill, who lost their ATs and ultimately didn't get anything more than a Mii outfit and spirit respectively in Ultimate). He already wasn't for Smash 4.

Spring Man is honestly the only Assist Trophy character that makes me wonder if he was passed over precisely because they already made him an AT, or if he was always destined to get Chrom'd in favor of Min Min (or even Ninjara) anyways.

 

[RileyXY1]

Yeah, if Smash 4 and Ultimate are indication, the only first parties that seem to have a shot at DLC are the ones from contemporary Nintendo games that missed the boat for the base game (Fire Emblem Fates, Fire Emblem Three Houses, ARMS and Xenoblade 2). Even if Isaac wasn't already an AT, he wasn't going to be DLC anyways (just ask characters like Saki and Jill, who lost their ATs and ultimately didn't get anything more than a Mii outfit and spirit respectively in Ultimate). He already wasn't for Smash 4.

Spring Man is honestly the only Assist Trophy character that makes me wonder if he was passed over precisely because they already made him an AT, or if he was always destined to get Chrom'd in favor of Min Min (or even Ninjara) anyways.

Yep, as well as returning cut veterans in the case of Mewtwo, Roy, and Lucas.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Maybe they will also give him the moves he had in Tatsunoko vs. Capcom: Ultimate All-Stars and/or the moves he had in Project X Zone 2.

We never saw what his moves were in Tatsunoko vs Capcom since be was cut before said moveset was finalized.

All we know for sure is that it involved his desk slam animation

I can see the Project X Zone summon being an attack in smash though, where he summons to Steel Samurai out of nowhere to attack opponents from a distance.

Yeah, if Smash 4 and Ultimate are indication, the only first parties that seem to have a shot at DLC are the ones from contemporary Nintendo games that missed the boat for the base game (Fire Emblem Fates, Fire Emblem Three Houses, ARMS and Xenoblade 2). Even if Isaac wasn't already an AT, he wasn't going to be DLC anyways (just ask characters like Saki and Jill, who lost their ATs and ultimately didn't get anything more than a Mii outfit and spirit respectively in Ultimate). He already wasn't for Smash 4.

Spring Man is honestly the only Assist Trophy character that makes me wonder if he was passed over precisely because they already made him an AT, or if he was always destined to get Chrom'd in favor of Min Min (or even Ninjara) anyways.

Don't forget returning characters from past games, those can be DLC too like Roy and Lucas.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Like, small side tangent, I don't think it got brought up much during Smash 4 DLC discussion unless I'm just forgetting because it's been so long, but like I could have seen Isaac as DLC then! Dark Dawn was 2010, more recent than Punch-Out Wii for Mac, so Isaac could've been added in about the same time frame as Min Min or Pyra/Mythra were, and he wasn't an AT in Smash 4, Golden Sun just had nothing to its name, so nobody really expected anything out of it lol

Currently though, I feel like Isaac's chances are base game or nothing because now it's been like 15 years. I do think he has a shot for base game because of all the content Golden Sun received pointing to a credible level of popularity as a request, so he's in a position that's been given an upgrade in the past, but like he doesn't have enough general consciousness to be sold on his own as opposed to being part of a full roster.

I on the other hand don't see him happening unless the Golden Sun IP gets a breath of life (and it isn't just continuing Matthew's story without Isaac as a major character).

Getting content in Ultimate as acknowledgement to the Ballot popularity is just that; acknowledgement to the Ballot popularity. It isn't some "We'll get 'em next time, sport. I promise~" deal and this is something that honestly plagues speculation (for more than just Isaac, not trying to single you out). Sometimes you just can't be looking the gift horse in the mouth, y'know? It's nothing short of a miracle that Isaac even came back as an Assist after Smash For.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I on the other hand don't see him happening unless the Golden Sun IP gets a breath of life (and it isn't just continuing Matthew's story without Isaac as a major character).

Getting content in Ultimate as acknowledgement to the Ballot popularity is just that; acknowledgement to the Ballot popularity. It isn't some "We'll get 'em next time, sport. I promise~" deal and this is something that honestly plagues speculation (for more than just Isaac, not trying to single you out). Sometimes you just can't be looking the gift horse in the mouth, y'know?

I think its the other way around, i dont think were getting a new Golden Sun UNLESS Isacc gets into Smash.

 

[Watuna4343]

Re: Unlockable characters
Stepping away from veterans for a second, what hypothetical newcomers can you see being unlockable in the next Smash game’s base roster?

Hmmm, well mandatory new clones aside, the only one that is guaranteed to be unlockable is the new retro/surprise pick. Like if we look at Brawl and Smash 4, the retro/wtf/surprise picks were among the few unlockable characters and barring Lucas all the clones too. Now Brawl had Snake and Sonic too but I'd argue these are absolutely more special cases as they were the first 3rd parties/guests and Brawl was the first game to introduce guests fighters so they wanted to keep them hidden so I treat these as special occasions especially as in Smash 4 none of the 3rd parties (including Sonic who returned) were unlockable. The only 2 outliers here are Lucario in Brawl and Bowser Jr. in Smash 4 (3DS only),I can see someone like that filling that role of a newcomer from an already pre-existing franchise (say a newcomer from the Legend of Zelda or Xenoblade Chronicles or maybe Pokémon again? Or another franchise altogether, perhaps not Mario since the only newcomer I think is coming is Waluigi and I don't think Waluigi will be unlockable but if there's a 2nd one then yeah, they'll probably be unlockable). But apart from that I think most newcomers will be starters (which I think is what usually happens)

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I think its the other way around, i dont think were getting a new Golden Sun UNLESS Isacc gets into Smash.

That makes no sense.

Why would an entire series be so dependent on a character showing up as a fighter to get more games?

 

[Watuna4343]

I think so too. Except I see Lucina and Chrom potentially sharing a move set, a more unique one. And then they'd be Echoes of each other.

Hmm, no I don't see them going through the trouble for that. Chrom felt like an opportunity since they had the model and they could use Roy to appease to the fan demand for Ultimate but now that he's tied to Roy, I don't see them going through the trouble to differentiate them.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I on the other hand don't see him happening unless the Golden Sun IP gets a breath of life (and it isn't just continuing Matthew's story without Isaac as a major character).

Getting content in Ultimate as acknowledgement to the Ballot popularity is just that; acknowledgement to the Ballot popularity. It isn't some "We'll get 'em next time, sport. I promise~" deal and this is something that honestly plagues speculation (for more than just Isaac, not trying to single you out). Sometimes you just can't be looking the gift horse in the mouth, y'know? It's nothing short of a miracle that Isaac even came back as an Assist after Smash For.

Definitely a possible outcome. I'd feel bad for the Golden Sun fanbase if that's the case, but I could see it lol

I'm mostly going off of the Mii Costume, since characters like K. Rool, Chrom, and Isabelle got them before becoming playable (though Isabelle probably would've been playable anyway lol), but I do realize that one time of this happening isn't a dead set confirmed pattern or anything, and it wasn't a DLC Mii Costume either lol

 

[fogbadge]

We never saw what his moves were in Tatsunoko vs Capcom since be was cut before said moveset was finalized.

All we know for sure is that it involved his desk slam animation

they were considering having it on wheels I believe. I also recall they were considering Fransika Von Karma and it wouldn’t be hard to picture what she’d do

 

[Watuna4343]

I on the other hand don't see him happening unless the Golden Sun IP gets a breath of life (and it isn't just continuing Matthew's story without Isaac as a major character).

Getting content in Ultimate as acknowledgement to the Ballot popularity is just that; acknowledgement to the Ballot popularity. It isn't some "We'll get 'em next time, sport. I promise~" deal and this is something that honestly plagues speculation (for more than just Isaac, not trying to single you out). Sometimes you just can't be looking the gift horse in the mouth, y'know? It's nothing short of a miracle that Isaac even came back as an Assist after Smash For.

I mostly agree with this and I definitely agree that Isaac isn't coming next game, however I have to say that King K. Rool does serve as a counterpoint to 'dormant characters/franchises' who got into Smash because of fan demand after getting acknowledgement in a past game. Like, King K. Rool hadn't been in a game since 2008 before Smash Ultimate since he was outright replaced as a major antagonist in the last 2 Donkey Kong games and before Smash Ultimate he served as a Mii Costume in Smash 4 which felt very Geno-esque in reason (acknowledgement of popularity) before straight up getting in the next game. Now King K. Rool's home franchise fares far better than Golden Sun and his generally associated with a far more iconic cast and era (as well as me thinking that his fan demand was bigger than Isaac's) but there's definitely parallels to suggest that acknowledgement can lead to a full playability. Now again, I don't see Isaac becoming playable next game, just because I can't imagine them prioritizing him enough for base game and then obviously he'd be so off as DLC but the fact that he got acknowledgement doesn't necessarily mean that that's his limit

 

[ninjahmos]

If Phoenix Wright ever gets into Smash, his Final Smash should be called Ace Attorney, and it should be based off of this:

 

[Hadokeyblade]

If Phoenix Wright ever gets into Smash, his Final Smash should be called Ace Attorney, and it should be based off of this:

And if you grab multiple characters into the final smash the witness stand ends up looking like the one from the great ace attorney/Layton vs Phoenix wright where its big enough for four people

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I just feel like Isaac has a shot next game because with Ultimate's small cast of base game newcomers due to Everyone Is Here that were all extensions of already present series that were popular options (Ridley, K. Rool, Dark Samus, Chrom), more contemporary characters (Isabelle, Incineroar, Inkling), or Castlevania, Isaac doesn't really fit--like imagine getting four new stages and it's New Donk City, Great Plateau Tower, Dracula's Castle, and like Venus Lighthouse, he kinda sticks out like a sore thumb in that regard--nor did he fit into the DLC where everything was third party or more contemporary (Pyra/Mythra, Min Min, Byleth).

In a game with a more standard newcomer number, I could see Isaac being acknowledged as a popular request via the content in Ultimate being a potential point in his favor, though it obviously depends on a lot of factors, namely if the next game actually has a more typical newcomer pool and if that consideration continues into the next game.

So like I don't think he's a lock or anything and he's not even one of my most wanted, I'm just like "Wow, Isaac actually might have a non-zero chance for next game" lol

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Definitely a possible outcome. I'd feel bad for the Golden Sun fanbase if that's the case, but I could see it lol

I'm mostly going off of the Mii Costume, since characters like K. Rool, Chrom, and Isabelle got them before becoming playable (though Isabelle probably would've been playable anyway lol), but I do realize that one time of this happening isn't a dead set confirmed pattern or anything, and it wasn't a DLC Mii Costume either lol

The only standout here is K. Rool.

Chrom and Isabelle have costumes in part of their roles in Smash For (Robin's Final Smash and an Assist, respectively).

Same holds true for the likes of Ashley and Takamaru (who stayed as Assists in Ultimate), Dunban (who stayed part of Shulk's Final Smash in Ultimate), Toad (still part of Peach's moves in Ultimate), Viridi (still part of Reset Bomb Forest's background in Ultimate), K.K. Slider (still plays on stages on Saturday night in Ultimate), Flying Man (reusing assests from scrapped model, and they still function as stage hazards for Magicant in Ultimate), etc.

It really isn't any sign whatsoever for a playable fighter.
Even in the same game Isaac got a costume, Saki (who used to be an Assist until Ultimate), Chibi-Robo, Ray MKIII (another Assist like Isaac that was scrapped after Brawl, but didn't return like Isaac did), and Lip got costumes for example, but no one says it's evidence towards their inclusion in the future.

 

[Garteam]

So that's the nuance to this argument, at least. Bottom line, saying "Chun-Li can't get in if Dante does" is dumb. But saying "Chun-Li, Dante, Monster Hunter and Phoenix Wright won't all be added" is probably accurate.

I think it’s also worth highlighting that, even among characters from the same parent company, not all licenses are going to be equally priced. Obtaining the license to Ace Attorney or Devil May Cry probably isn’t as difficult as obtaining the license to Resident Evil or Monster Hunter because the latter two are cash cows that are very carefully managed and are former two licensed semi-frequently to increase brand awareness.

Secondary characters in franchises that have already been in Smash especially benefit from this, as just about every viable candidate has appeared already in a non-playable role. Yeah, upgrading them to playable will likely increase the cost of the license to some degree, but some cash was already going to be put down to obtain the rights to the character anyways. It’s more cost-efficient that having to negotiate for an additional license.

I think there’s also the matter of characters being added in waves due to DLC. Four Capcom newcomers probably can’t be negotiated simultaneously, but four Capcom newcomers could likely be negotiated across a base game and two waves of DLC, especially if at least one of those characters is an additional Mega Man or Street Fighter rep for the reason mentioned above.

 

[Opossum]

Honestly nothing DEFINITIVELY points to it but I've always thought that Saki was meant to return as an Assist but something just Happened during development that prevented it. Of all of the dropped Assists, Saki was always the weirdest one to drop.

 

[BrawlX10]

I think begin a mii costume helps for some characters like Shantae, Doomguy, Dante, Sans, Geno....which were likely chosen because they know they're popular with fans but couldn't make it as playable characters as some sort of bonus.
But there's also characters like Gil that were choosen as Mii costumes just because.
Geno and Lloyd also show that begin a mii costume doesn't mean you're getting in the next game, either.

 

[SPEN18]

I mean that's always like the catch-22, pretty much "hey if they got into Smash, they could probably then get a new game, but they probably need a new game to get into Smash."
Still, I don't think Isaac should be counted out even sans new game, simply because of his consistent popularity, a popularity that's one of the highest among first-party characters, and at ballot time was a pretty clear #2 behind K Rool in polling.

The way to look at the Mii Costume and other GS content in Ult is just to view it as further evidence of his ballot performance, because there's really no other decent explanation for that amount of content, especially content that wasn't in previous Smash games (even Brawl when GS was actually a more relevant series). It's just part of a pile of evidence that a lot of people want Isaac and the devs know he's a popular fan pick.

(and it isn't just continuing Matthew's story without Isaac as a major character).

I can understand being skeptical of the chances of any non-relevant character, but that part there seems like a strange line to draw. If GS gets any kind of new game, Isaac's chances skyrocket because then he's the most popular character and original protagonist of a relevant franchise. If that new game is specifically continuing Matthew's story, I mean...Matthew and Isaac can pretty easily be Echoes of each other, not to mention any game with Matthew is highly likely to have Isaac in it in some form at least even if he's not a playable party member.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Re: Unlockable characters
Stepping away from veterans for a second, what hypothetical newcomers can you see being unlockable in the next Smash game’s base roster?

Any first-party character that's not one of the bigger names. Could be a retro character like Takamaru, or someone from a series like Rhythm Heaven or Advance Wars.

 

[Shinuto]

Honestly nothing DEFINITIVELY points to it but I've always thought that Saki was meant to return as an Assist but something just Happened during development that prevented it. Of all of the dropped Assists, Saki was always the weirdest one to drop.

Treasure owned him and Nintendo thought they did???

 

[SPEN18]

Treasure owned him and Nintendo thought they did???

How could they not know? Plus he'd been represented in Smash before.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Honestly nothing DEFINITIVELY points to it but I've always thought that Saki was meant to return as an Assist but something just Happened during development that prevented it. Of all of the dropped Assists, Saki was always the weirdest one to drop.

I get where your coming from, it feels like the people at Nintendo really like his game so for his assist to be cut really feels off.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Honestly nothing DEFINITIVELY points to it but I've always thought that Saki was meant to return as an Assist but something just Happened during development that prevented it. Of all of the dropped Assists, Saki was always the weirdest one to drop.

It really does seem conspicuous, ngl.

I could buy he was meant to return.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

We'll never entirely know without getting detailed information on the decision making of Smash and hard numbers from the ballot, but something like K Rool could turn out to be a somewhat unique case of Nintendo strongly underestimating his popularity specifically and that the understanding of other first party characters potentially falling closer to what the company already knows/expects. Given that it was typically hired third party developers like Paon and Bandai-Namco that were including the character in their games vs Nintendo dropping almost the entire DK cast in the one title they internally developed (Jungle Beat), I think one could possibly make the case that the company in general (at least NoJ) didn't entirely understand how much and how many fans remembered K Rool until the numbers were staring them in the face.

Just conjecture, but it does somewhat line up with what we've seen with the franchise the past 25 years.

 

[ninjahmos]

Saki didn't return as an Assist Trophy in Ultimate, and after that, N64 games started being released for NSO, and Sin and Punishment was eventually included as one of those games.

That does seem a little bit odd.

By the way, I played Sin and Punishment via NSO, and the story was…odd.

 

[fogbadge]

Honestly nothing DEFINITIVELY points to it but I've always thought that Saki was meant to return as an Assist but something just Happened during development that prevented it. Of all of the dropped Assists, Saki was always the weirdest one to drop.

I think Tingle was the weirdest

oh you mean the actually dropping was weird? nvm

 

[Opossum]

Treasure owned him and Nintendo thought they did???

Nintendo owns the Sin and Punishment IP. Treasure just developed it.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Nintendo owns the Sin and Punishment IP. Treasure just developed it.

Plus even if Treasure did own it, Saki and Isa Jo are Spirits already, so no reason not to include the AT lol

 

[Kirbeh]

'd by Opossum, but adding to it, it's not like Saki isn't still in Ultimate. He's still there as a Spirit and a Mii costume. I think the AT cut was just him getting unlucky on priority.

EDIT: And also 'd by Poppy Bro

 

[Garteam]

IMO, Isaac is probably the third most popular first-party behind Waluigi and Bandana Waddle Dee. That should make him at least a possibility, if nothing else. K. Rool pretty definitively confirms that sufficient popularity can overcome an extensive absence.

Where I think Issac might be in trouble is if Sakurai repeats Ultimate’s approach of adding two fan favourite characters and adding a character from a series with a bunch of characters that, when their requests are combined in aggregate, are very popular. In that situation, we’re probably getting Waluigi, Bandana Waddle Dee, and a Zelda or Sonic character.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Zelda should get a new character although that’s obvious and especially since there is only two characters that don’t have moveset overlap which are Sheik and Zelda (both are also Zelda ).

If had to guess the options: Impa, Skull Kid, Midna and any of the BOTW champions/TOTK Sages.

I think the reason why there wasn’t any BOTW introduced characters in Ultimate is because of timing. There are stuff from BOTW in Ultimate but they likely finalized the roster before lot of the mid-late game stuff was finalized. This could also be why Link’s Final Smash was the Ancient Bow and Arrow which was in BOTW’s teaser trailer.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Spring Man is honestly the only Assist Trophy character that makes me wonder if he was passed over precisely because they already made him an AT, or if he was always destined to get Chrom'd in favor of Min Min (or even Ninjara) anyways.

My take on it is that since it was basically Mr. Kozaki's call on who we got as the ARMS rep since the game's his baby, there was a non-zero chance Spring Man would've gotten the promotion, thus opening Pandora's Box and making everyone freak the **** out about any other potential AT promotion. After all, I doubt Sakurai would've been "nuh-uh, can't add Spring Man, he's already an Assist!" if Kozaki had insisted on him.

Thankfully for the sanity of us all, Kozaki instead chose to be biased and picked his favorite character.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

My take on it is that since it was basically Mr. Kozaki's call on who we got as the ARMS rep since the game's his baby, there was a non-zero chance Spring Man would've gotten the promotion, thus opening Pandora's Box and making everyone freak the **** out about any other potential AT promotion. After all, I doubt Sakurai would've been "nuh-uh, can't add Spring Man, he's already an Assist!" if Kozaki had insisted on him.

Thankfully for the sanity of us all, Kozaki instead chose to be biased and picked his favorite character.

Honestly if i was a game dev and was asked for a character from my game to be in smash i would also insist on my favorite member of the cast instead of the protag

 

[Watuna4343]

Oooh, since we are going to the topic of the Legend of Zelda I have to give a hot take of an opinion - I think the new Smash game will see a wholly unique Zelda newcomer (as in a non-variant of the main trio) BUT it won't be Impa, Skull Kid, Midna, Tingle etc. I think it'll be a newer character from BOTW onwards and personally? I bet my money on Sidon. I can see Sidon getting in as a sort of Rosalina kind of situation where both were very popular characters from a highly successful game of the previous generation who got in more unexpectedly over the more evergreen or expected newcomers (I mean I wasn't around during Smash 4's days but I can see that Rosalina wasn't exactly expected). I don't think Sidon has such unique potential as Rosalina but I mean like... Trident. It's there waiting to be exploited. But overall I do think that a character like Sidon is not nearly as speculated as the next Zelda newcomer because I think he has a better chance than most of the speculated characters like Impa, Skull Kid etc. (with both having missed their boat imo and the former especially, since I am doing the Super Mario analogues, gives strong Toad vibes in terms of 'would've been in already but Sakurai is probably not interested in putting her')

 

[Kirbeh]

Oooh, since we are going to the topic of the Legend of Zelda I have to give a hot take of an opinion - I think the new Smash game will see a wholly unique Zelda newcomer (as in a non-variant of the main trio) BUT it won't be Impa, Skull Kid, Midna, Tingle etc. I think it'll be a newer character from BOTW onwards and personally? I bet my money on Sidon. I can see Sidon getting in as a sort of Rosalina kind of situation where both were very popular characters from a highly successful game of the previous generation who got in more unexpectedly over the more evergreen or expected newcomers (I mean I wasn't around during Smash 4's days but I can see that Rosalina wasn't exactly expected). I don't think Sidon has such unique potential as Rosalina but I mean like... Trident. It's there waiting to be exploited. But overall I do think that a character like Sidon is not nearly as speculated as the next Zelda newcomer because I think he has a better chance than most of the speculated characters like Impa, Skull Kid etc. (with both having missed their boat imo and the former especially, since I am doing the Super Mario analogues gives strong Toad vibes in terms of 'would've been in already but Sakurai is probably not interested in putting her')

The hot take here isn't Sidon, its thinking that were getting a Zelda newcomer.
?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Honestly if i was a game dev and was asked for a character from my game to be in smash i would also insist on my favorite member of the cast instead of the protag

You would usually not be given the option of choosing; ARMS is a very special case due to having no predefined protagonist. The people used to market the game are mostly just the first people revealed rather than any outright main character.

So this allowed Sakurai to have anyone within ARMS's varied cast instead of feeling restrained to just one choice like most series. And this also allowed Kozaki to uniquely have full decision on which of his characters could make a good fit instead of feeling like there's only one good option.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

There's no real rational basis for this, but it's always been hard for imagine one of the BotW champions getting a Smash nod. I guess in my mind it defaults to a 3 Houses situation of them choosing Byleth over an individual House leader. Apples to oranges comparison I know; it's just that my immediate instinct is a Rauru or maybe even a Rhoam showing up if it has to be someone from the newer games.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

There's no real rational basis for this, but it's always been hard for imagine one of the BotW champions getting a Smash nod. I guess in my mind it defaults to a 3 Houses situation of them choosing Byleth over an individual House leader. Apples to oranges comparison I know; it's just that my immediate instinct is a Rauru or maybe even a Rhoam showing up if it has to be someone from the newer games.

Honestly, I feel the same way. It feels wrong to give the spotlight to only one of the four Champions or Sages and leave the other three to eat dust.

With that said, Rauru would be a good way to implement TotK's sauce without needing to completely redesign Link so that'd be neat.