Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Ivander]

No let's talk about cuts

----
That aside, does Sega have the IP potential for a crossover game? Yes. But are those IPs anywhere near the strength and popularity of Nintendo or Capcom? No and for one big reason.

Lack of awareness

Basically, because of things like Sega of America hardly bothering to bring over a good chunk of games from Japan out to the West(remember, we didn't get new games for Phantasy Star in the West until PSO2 almost 11 Years later), because of lack of re-releases aside from Sonic titles, some notable titles like Yakuza or Valkyria Chronicles, and Sega Genesis titles in general, and because of lack of marketing, the majority of Sega IPs are practically a footnote to most casuals who don't notice or think about compared to the attention that Sonic, Persona, Puyo Puyo and Yakuza get.

One could also argue a lack of recurring callbacks/cameos and whatnot(which could be considered under lack of marketing) compared to Nintendo and Capcom, who have a ton of games that isn't just their crossover titles that like to callback or cameo their other franchises. Like say what you want about F-Zero or Darkstalkers not getting brand new games for a long time, they still get a ton of notable attention from Nintendo and Capcom that even casuals can recognise them from game to game. Which the same can't be said for any Sega IP that isn't Sonic, Persona, Yakuza, PuyoPuyo, and arguably a couple like Virtua Fighter, House of the Dead and Super Monkey Ball. Your casual audience who didn't live through the Sega Genesis to Dreamcast era would certainly not recognise the likes of Sega IPs like Golden Axe, NiGHTS, Altered Beast, Shinobi, Skies of Arcadia, ChuChu Rocket, Panzer Dragoon, Shining Force, Burning Rangers and whatnot.

Which is probably why the Sega Remake trailer from the Game Awards in 2023 was such a big deal. It wasn't just simply the fact that it was 5 Sega franchises getting new games/remakes and a hint of more franchises getting new games, like Virtua Fighter later on, it got the attention of many hardcore fans which in turn got the attention of casuals. It was a publicity stunt that managed to give notable attention to the IPs Sega showed off which also gave attention to some other less known Sega IPs from people who wanted to learn more.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Because it's a similar kind of game. It's an alternative kart racer to Mario Kart.

And sells don't matter.

A game that ends with a 6 - 3 score is still a competition. A game that ends 20 - 1 less so.

But still competition, no matter what.

I think you're conflating existing with competing. Yes they're both on the market at the same time, and yes, someone might choose to purchase one over the other, but if there's no chance one even comes close to threatening the viability or success of the other, they're not really in competition.

That's what I've been saying the whole time; something can sell enough to be seen as a competitor, not actually outsell something to be that.

Your question was how could it be hard to imagine if it's happened in the past. It can be hard to imagine existing now if you doubt it will return.

But again, I wasn't talking about how likely it was going to happen. I was talking about what it would be like if it was going to happen. I was asking somebody else and he came with his own response that didn't quite blend well.

It's a key aspect of whether they'd be actual competitors, and whether the companies would even greenlight the games. These are businesses.

If the competition is overwhelming and decisively one-sided, they're not really competing. Competition would be a foregone conclusion. They're just mutually existing. They could be competing in other aspects, like which is the "better game", but that's not really what we're talking about here.

It's definitely not just sells, I know that. If so, it's only fair we go by the latest Mario Kart game too, by his argument, would make All-Star Racing games competitors. But of course, all it just shows is that sells are not that big of a deal. Maybe there are different reasons for those sells. But you can't say they're not in competition because of that.

It's not 1993 anymore. Nintendo has a whole array of series that sell better than Sonic games do these days.

Also, unlike most of Nintendo's big series, Japan isn't going to help Sonic nearly as much.

I hope you're not under the impression that SEGA's roster would be filled with a bunch of literal "whos". Aside from Sonic, there's also Yakuza, Persona, Super Monkey Ball, Virtua Fighter, Shinobi, and many others I'm sure you're familiar with.

Dude I'm not in this argument and I don't wanna get involved, but I'm starting to question either your literacy or understanding of the English language.

You don't seem to understand what Poppy is arguing. And continuing will only frustrate you both.

Thanks for saying absolutely nothing. That totally clarified everything.....

Maybe you shouldn't say anything if you don't want to get involved.

If you're classifying them as competitors, sales matters.

If you're just looking at whether you are physically able to play them sales aren't quite as important.

But this also proves you are indeed conflating competing with existing.

So sells don't mean everything, like I said. This just clearly shows that there's more to game than just sells for people to obsess over.

That's a pivotal aspect of competition between two similar products.

So? They're still competing no matter what.

Yes, because you said Sega could possibly match Smash Bros. But have not given a single bit of compelling evidence why, meanwhile are chalking counter evidence (sales) up as a "weird fanboy obsession" when that's exactly the metric that matters when comparing the competitiveness of two products.

Except there was no "counter evidence" as all that was from completely unrelated games from different genres. And even I've been saying the whole time that the game doesn't have to outsell something to compete with it but just sell well enough. Both you and PoppyBro would eventually say the same thing, which makes this whole thing pointless.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Reminder that Apple Gaikichi from 16T made it in the top 20 favorite sega character polls in Japan. Make way for this obscure king.

 

[SharkLord]

I think with Infinite what they could do is expand on him as a mercenary leader. It gave him something unique from the other antagonists and they could use that angle to have him persue strength and power via his personal influence to amass his personal troupe.

It's just that I don't think they could do it as they fumbled him so hard it'd be hard to take him seriously. With the Deadly Six all they need is better writing (which is why I think they're more successful in the comics, especially Zavok), but Infinite would need an overhaul as a character to be capable of being a threat to most fans and that'd be tough to pull off.

Now that I think of it mercenaries in the Sonic-verse are kinda funny. I believe Sega's mandated that money exists in the setting, but the comics can't show any, and Ring definitely aren't money either (What are Rings anyways? Who knows), so that makes Eggman hiring some goons kinda awkward when you think about it

 

[Speed Weed]

Honestly I just think the fixation on whether it can "compete with Smash" is dumb and misguided anyway because the simple truth of the matter is that SEGA characters fighting each other is COOL dammit

 

[Idon]

Random thought experiment.
From the characters already in the game, are there any moves whose animations you wish they would tweak/replace?
The more characters we get, the better their animations are so it makes the kinda wonky ones stand out.

As of right now, I've got a few:

Ike up tilt

I always felt this move was bizarre being this one handed sword punch where he keeps the sword perfectly horizontal the whole way up. Like, he should either use both hands for a real bench press or have even a little curve to it.

Samus Nair

This move being two horizontal and separate kicks is SO goofy to me. All they gotta do is make the attack one fluid spinkick and not "kick-kick"

Link Uair/Dair

Okay this one's cheating with two moves but they're the same genre of attack.
Like man, it's a really cool Zelda 2 reference but Zelda 2 is a game where Link gets to have 2 frames of animation ever, why are we making HD BotW Link do it? He doesn't thrust it in either move with any amount of force, he kinda just puts it out and waits in that pose.

images taken from here: https://dragdown.wiki/wiki/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Link Uair/Dair
View attachment 399055View attachment 399056
Okay this one's cheating with two moves but they're the same genre of attack.
Like man, it's a really cool Zelda 2 reference but Zelda 2 is a game where Link gets to have 2 frames of animation ever, why are we making HD BotW Link do it? He doesn't thrust it in either move with any amount of force, he kinda just puts it out and waits in that pose.

images taken from here: https://dragdown.wiki/wiki/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate

Toon Link adds more force for his down air compared to BOTW Link but that’s only because Zelda 2 isn’t the only inspiration for his down air because he does something similar in the battle against Ganondorf in the Wind Waker.

That’s presumably why it’s a stall-then-fall.

 

[DynamicSmasher]

Now that I think of it mercenaries in the Sonic-verse are kinda funny. I believe Sega's mandated that money exists in the setting, but the comics can't show any, and Ring definitely aren't money either (What are Rings anyways? Who knows), so that makes Eggman hiring some goons kinda awkward when you think about it

Hey, maybe Eggman makes some really good spaghetti. Good enough spaghetti to risk your life for.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Link Uair/Dair
View attachment 399055View attachment 399056
Okay this one's cheating with two moves but they're the same genre of attack.
Like man, it's a really cool Zelda 2 reference but Zelda 2 is a game where Link gets to have 2 frames of animation ever, why are we making HD BotW Link do it? He doesn't thrust it in either move with any amount of force, he kinda just puts it out and waits in that pose.

images taken from here: https://dragdown.wiki/wiki/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate

I agree with the others, but Link Down Air in Ultimate looks like he puts some force into it.

It's pretty goofy how long he just holds it there completely neutral expressioned and I think that should be changed, but like him jamming the sword down at the start looks fine imo

 

[Idon]

I agree with the others, but Link Down Air in Ultimate looks like he puts some force into it.

It's pretty goofy how long he just holds it there completely neutral expressioned and I think that should be changed, but like him jamming the sword down at the start looks fine imo

Hmm yeah I can see it now. I suppose I forget that due to how much his "midair kneeling" sticks out in my mind what with the pogo.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Hmm yeah I can see it now. I suppose I forget that due to how much his "midair kneeling" sticks out in my mind what with the pogo.

Yeah, I think the stab is pretty short (I think on Ultimate Frame Data it's like a couple of frames) so if they made it longer or more noticeable/more exaggerated I think it'd be better, cut out some of the pogo window so he's not just holding the sword down like a dope for a millenia lol

 

[Diddy Kong]

I agree with the others, but Link Down Air in Ultimate looks like he puts some force into it.

It's pretty goofy how long he just holds it there completely neutral expressioned and I think that should be changed, but like him jamming the sword down at the start looks fine imo

Toon Link has the best functioning Down Air of the Links for this very reason. It's too iconic to change. Especially since all modern Zelda games since Twilight Princess have this "finishing blow". It can be a little stronger however. Or it could be his new Up B and has a strong leap with it to act as a recovery? Spin Attack could easily be a Down Smash anyway, and the weaker Spin Attack a Jab finisher.

 

[Gengar84]

I wish Sephiroth’s down air felt a little more impactful. It’s a reference to such a huge moment in the story but it feels a little weak. I think if it had a sticky mechanic that dragged down opponents it hit with him that would be really cool.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Toon Link has the best functioning Down Air of the Links for this very reason

Toon Link also does it in his game unlike the other Links where it’s more similar to the version in Adventure of Link.

 

[Dinoman96]

Honestly the main thing that bothers me about Link's up air more than anything, is how they borked the animation.

As you can see the above, the original animation in 64, Melee and Brawl was a pretty straightforward and direct reference to the Upward Thrust as it was presented in Zelda 2.

But then in Smash 4, it became...whatever the hell this thing is.

I have a similar problem with Diddy's dash attack animation, actually. In Brawl, it was exactly like the original Rare animation...

...but then in Smash 4, it got changed into into a bunch of random slaps for no reason.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

----
That aside, does Sega have the IP potential for a crossover game? Yes. But are those IPs anywhere near the strength and popularity of Nintendo or Capcom? No and for one big reason.

Lack of awareness

Basically, because of things like Sega of America hardly bothering to bring over a good chunk of games from Japan out to the West(remember, we didn't get new games for Phantasy Star in the West until PSO2 almost 11 Years later), because of lack of re-releases aside from Sonic titles, some notable titles like Yakuza or Valkyria Chronicles, and Sega Genesis titles in general, and because of lack of marketing, the majority of Sega IPs are practically a footnote to most casuals who don't notice or think about compared to the attention that Sonic, Persona, Puyo Puyo and Yakuza get.

One could also argue a lack of recurring callbacks/cameos and whatnot(which could be considered under lack of marketing) compared to Nintendo and Capcom, who have a ton of games that isn't just their crossover titles that like to callback or cameo their other franchises. Like say what you want about F-Zero or Darkstalkers not getting brand new games for a long time, they still get a ton of notable attention from Nintendo and Capcom that even casuals can recognise them from game to game. Which the same can't be said for any Sega IP that isn't Sonic, Persona, Yakuza, PuyoPuyo, and arguably a couple like Virtua Fighter, House of the Dead and Super Monkey Ball. Your casual audience who didn't live through the Sega Genesis to Dreamcast era would certainly not recognise the likes of Sega IPs like Golden Axe, NiGHTS, Altered Beast, Shinobi, Skies of Arcadia, ChuChu Rocket, Panzer Dragoon, Shining Force, Burning Rangers and whatnot.

Which is probably why the Sega Remake trailer from the Game Awards in 2023 was such a big deal. It wasn't just simply the fact that it was 5 Sega franchises getting new games/remakes and a hint of more franchises getting new games, like Virtua Fighter later on, it got the attention of many hardcore fans which in turn got the attention of casuals. It was a publicity stunt that managed to give notable attention to the IPs Sega showed off which also gave attention to some other less known Sega IPs from people who wanted to learn more.

One of Sega's biggest IP's, Sakura Wars is virtually unknown outside of Japan because we only got half the series over here and a small bit of crossover appearances in games made by other companies.
So despite it being one of Sega's biggest IP's it never shows up in THEIR crossovers.

So that's another point in the lack of exposure camp.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I'm actually going to call out the Zavok haters.

Not because Zavok is particularly good (he's mediocre) but because he isn't robbing anyone of a roster spot. They have already included every major Sonic character in the game. Who's left? Black Doom? Infinite? Might as well throw Zavok a bone. He isn't disappointment incarnate like Infinite.

They should include Mephiles then. While Sonic 06 is considered one of the worst Sonic games (and for good reason), Mephiles is pretty well liked by the community.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Honestly the main thing that bothers me about Link's up air more than anything, is how they borked the animation.

As you can see the above, the original animation in 64, Melee and Brawl was a pretty straightforward and direct reference to the Upward Thrust as it was presented in Zelda 2.

But then in Smash 4, it became...whatever the hell this thing is.

I have a similar problem with Diddy's dash attack animation, actually. In Brawl, it was exactly like the original Rare animation...

...but then in Smash 4, it got changed into into a bunch of random slaps for no reason.

The cartwheel dash attack of Diddy bothered me a little bit too. It wasn't necessary, especially since the slaps don't have their own hit box either. They're just, there. In general the animation could use some more kick work , or just keep it classic like it was in Brawl yeah.

With Link am way less bothered. Zelda 2 is old now anyway and only the Down Air really became iconic in the end.

Speaking of Samus, yeah that "new" Neutral Air is ****. Give me back the Melee N Air.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

What are Rings anyways? Who knows

They're a secret.

Hmm yeah I can see it now. I suppose I forget that due to how much his "midair kneeling" sticks out in my mind what with the pogo.

Another thing they should probably do to clean it up is have him react to pogoing off of things, as he doesn't currently.

...but then in Smash 4, it got changed into into a bunch of random slaps for no reason.

I honestly think it's better this way, though perhaps it's due to how it currently functions as a multi-hit attack that halts your momentum rather than a more source accurate single hit attack that launches you forward.

I remember DukeofDorks being annoyed with this move for this reason and while I wouldn't change it to his side special of all things, I wouldn't be opposed to making it a more unique dash attack or something.

 

[Perkilator]

I think some sort of trading card mechanic would be a good compromise between the respective ideas of bringing back Trophies and Spirits. They could be like Spirits in terms of giving you different effects, and Trophies in terms of being collectibles with brief blurbs about the respective character(s).

 

[Gengar84]

I think some sort of trading card mechanic would be a good compromise between the respective ideas of bringing back Trophies and Spirits. They could be like Spirits in terms of giving you different effects, and Trophies in terms of being collectibles with brief blurbs about the respective character(s).

What if Smash gives us a simple game we can play with those cards like Triple Triad or Tetra Master from FFVIII and IX? That could be a fun way to have some interaction with tons of different characters that couldn’t make the main roster.

 

[Shinuto]

I

It's currently up for debate, but I am leaning towards 'alien species'. In the past, Sega suggested that IDW could make their own Zeti if they wanted to, which IDW elected not to do. Like SSF said, they were initially meant to be Oni, BUT they decided to make them something new and different.



View attachment 399043
I would LOVE to see a game about how the D6 met and decided to work together. I need to see these six's team dynamic in action. At one point in SLW, Zavok refers to them as his 'brothers' so they're definitely close!

I've always said the Deadly Six would work best in a similar fashion to The Phantom Troupe from Hunter X Hunter, horrible, genuinely awful individuals who all only care for each other in their own twisted way.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think some sort of trading card mechanic would be a good compromise between the respective ideas of bringing back Trophies and Spirits. They could be like Spirits in terms of giving you different effects, and Trophies in terms of being collectibles with brief blurbs about the respective character(s).

I dunno if that's technically a compromise. That's sounds like doing all the work of both.

And I'm all for it.

 

[PlasmaDam]

I feel like people vastly overestimate how characthers will get cut I think it's gonna be like 10 min to 20 max. People who think they are gonna cut half the roster are kinda of dumb

 

[Gengar84]

I feel like people vastly overestimate how characthers will get cut I think it's gonna be like 10 min to 20 max. People who think they are gonna cut half the roster are kinda of dumb

I agree with the first part but I wouldn’t go so far as to call people that think otherwise dumb. There is a scenario where we could see massive cuts that could be justifiable. If we get a completely revamped gameplay system that reworks a ton of veteran movesets or a really ambitious campaign mode akin to Subspace Emissary, I’d expect a much smaller roster. However, if it continues on the same general path as Ultimate and it plays more or less the same with a few small changes, I don’t think we’ll see all that many cuts either.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I feel like people vastly overestimate how characthers will get cut I think it's gonna be like 10 min to 20 max. People who think they are gonna cut half the roster are kinda of dumb

I don't think it's gonna be half, and the total probably won't be that much lower, but due to also adding in a bunch of newcomers, roughly a third of Ultimate's veterans probably will get cycled out.

 

[Gengar84]

I don't think it's gonna be half, and the total probably won't be that much lower, but due to also adding in a bunch of newcomers, roughly a third of Ultimate's veterans probably will get cycled out.

Yeah, I’m expecting a starting roster around the size of Ultimate’s base game. I think we’ll probably see somewhere around 15 cuts and a similar amount of newcomers. I don’t think it’s entirely unrealistic to reach 100 characters by the time all the DLC is finished if they continue the passes throughout the life of the Switch 2.

 

[BrawlX10]

What if Smash gives us a simple game we can play with those cards like Triple Triad or Tetra Master from FFVIII and IX? That could be a fun way to have some interaction with tons of different characters that couldn’t make the main roster.

I think "Smash Cards"? (Name i made up in a second lmao) would be a good mix of Trophies and Spirits. Peraphs they could take inspiration of the Theatrhythm games "Collecta Cards" and have several rarities. Maybe you can trade them up with other people online as well, since well they're cards and all.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I feel like people vastly overestimate how characthers will get cut I think it's gonna be like 10 min to 20 max. People who think they are gonna cut half the roster are kinda of dumb

Either dumb or a certain troll on this site

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So what do you think of the future of the Dragon Quest franchise in regards to Smash?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

So what do you think of the future of the Dragon Quest franchise in regards to Smash?

I think they'll swap Luminary with Erdrick, since Erdrick is clearly the one Nintendo wanted to be the main one when you look at the trailers.

 

[BrawlX10]

So what do you think of the future of the Dragon Quest franchise in regards to Smash?

Dragon Quest fan here.
I think Hero has a decent chance to return in the next game, i can even see him as a base game addition as his rights are probably easiest to negotiate now than they were in 2019.
My main hope is that we get a Dragon Quest VIII stage, Yggdrasil Altar is nice, but it would be nice to get a new stage. I think the most likely scenario is that we get Ygdrasil Altar back or we get a DQ3 stage because of the remake.
I could see them adding the Chimaera Wing as a item and work like Hero's Zoom spell.....peraphs even a Rockbomb as a item lmao, that works like Brawl's Electrode, Falcon Blade is another option for a new item as is pretty iconic. Maybe Tunic of Evasion as well, which has a chance to auto-evade an attack.
As for assists? I'd say it's likely either Slime or Sylvando.

 

[fogbadge]

So what do you think of the future of the Dragon Quest franchise in regards to Smash?

I imagine they’ll at least try to keep it around. maybe not the highest priority for 3rd party franchises

 

[Gengar84]

Part of why I’m so confident we’ll still have a large roster is how much of Smash’s appeal comes from its identity of a big gaming celebration and crossover. I think it’s going to be hard to justify gutting so much of the roster when everyone has their own favorites and hopes for newcomers they get the chance to see interact with those favorites. The smaller you make the roster, the less opportunities for this we’d have. I’ll just use a hypothetical (and unlikely) example here: Let’s say that Smash 6 gives us Scorpion and Sub-Zero but cuts Ryu and Ken. On one hand. It would be awesome to play as the iconic MK ninjas in Smash but you’d lose that potential for a dream match of MK vs SF that we could have experienced through Smash. There are countless other examples like this.

 

[Will]

So what do you think of the future of the Dragon Quest franchise in regards to Smash?

I hope whoever the MC from DQXII makes it in.

I like all of the other heroes, so I hope this is the game where everyone gets an additional 2 costumes.

 

[Garteam]

So what do you think of the future of the Dragon Quest franchise in regards to Smash?

I think it's really going to come down to how Koichi Sugiyama's estate handles licensing. Yuji Horii and the Armor Project seem very cooperative and will actively push for Dragon Quest being in Smash (including fighting for Sakurai being able to use Heroes beyond Eleven and Erdrick). Bird Studios is very liberal with licensing. It's the music that's traditionally been a problem due to Sugiyama's protectionism.

I know some people have floated using III HD's music exclusively to circumvent Sugiyama, but his estate still owns the underlying compositions. I think it's more likely that whoever acquires the rights will just be more open to Smash getting a somewhat preferable deal due to the prestige and fame of Smash.

I can't see Sakurai not at least attempting to get Dragon Quest back, though. It's on the level of Mario and Mega Man when it comes to the average Japanese person's conception of classic Nintendo and Hero's inclusion really couldn't have gone better. I think it's more of a licensing issue than any desire to forego Dragon Quest (although I feel that way about every Third Party in Smash at this point).

 

[Gengar84]

I feel like Dragon Quest is iconic enough to keep around. I’d even be open to getting Psaro as an additional character. He’s got a cool design and Smash could always use more villains.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

They should put Hero's party spirits for the 4 and 8 heroes too.

I really like 8's cast.

 

[Oracle Link]

Random thought experiment.
From the characters already in the game, are there any moves whose animations you wish they would tweak/replace?
The more characters we get, the better their animations are so it makes the kinda wonky ones stand out.

As of right now, I've got a few:

Ike up tilt
View attachment 399049
I always felt this move was bizarre being this one handed sword punch where he keeps the sword perfectly horizontal the whole way up. Like, he should either use both hands for a real bench press or have even a little curve to it.

Samus Nair
View attachment 399050View attachment 399051
This move being two horizontal and separate kicks is SO goofy to me. All they gotta do is make the attack one fluid spinkick and not "kick-kick"

Link Uair/Dair
View attachment 399055View attachment 399056
Okay this one's cheating with two moves but they're the same genre of attack.
Like man, it's a really cool Zelda 2 reference but Zelda 2 is a game where Link gets to have 2 frames of animation ever, why are we making HD BotW Link do it? He doesn't thrust it in either move with any amount of force, he kinda just puts it out and waits in that pose.

images taken from here: https://dragdown.wiki/wiki/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate

Toon link forward smash it might be unique but the old one is just soo much less bad looking!

 

[DarthEnderX]

So what do you think of the future of the Dragon Quest franchise in regards to Smash?

Hero stays. An iconic monster gets an AT. Better/more music tracks. Possibly an Item.

MAYBE a Boss. But unlikely.

I think they'll swap Luminary with Erdrick, since Erdrick is clearly the one Nintendo wanted to be the main one when you look at the trailers.

Plus he's more recent now thanks to HD-2D.