Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Since I brought up Kirby a bit, I'm also kind of curious.

Do you guys think that after Forgotten Land's reception and the continued use of the model in Return to Dreamland Deluxe that Dedede's model might change to his current look next game?

I imagine HAL might want to push for the updated design.

It depends wholly on what Sakurai thinks. It's his creation.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It depends wholly on what Sakurai thinks. It's his creation.

It's his creation but also HAL's property.

I know we don't really think much of any potential legal clashes on first parties but we must remember that Sakurai is a freelancer.

He's not part of HAL, he's not part of Nintendo, he has to negotiate for the right to use the classic design if HAL insists on pushing for the new one just like he would need to negotiate for things with any other company. Not saying he can't pull it off, because he might, just that it's something he has to do.

 

[Louie G.]

I like Dedede’s Forgotten Land design and all, but I like it for that game. I like Dedede the way he is in Smash. As it stands it feels more true to the platonic ideal “King Dedede” anyway - his Super Star influenced look has always been the most consistent.

I do not think HAL will press him on it, anyway. This has only been his look for one game and one remake thus far, it’s hard to say what the future looks like when Dedede’s design is so inconsistent to begin with. But even outside of this, HAL has remained seemingly passive when it comes to Smash and lets Sakurai do his thing with his characters. I guess they have the authority to say yo, we want it to be done this way, but why start being so strict about this stuff now?

I personally can’t really see it changing, and I don’t think it has to or should. And as a Dedede main, I like him as he is.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

It's his creation but also HAL's property.

I know we don't really think much of any potential legal clashes on first parties but we must remember that Sakurai is a freelancer now.

He's not part of HAL, he's not part of Nintendo, he has to negotiate for the right to use the classic design if HAL insists on pushing for the new one just like he would need to negotiate for things with any other company. Not saying he can't pull it off, because he might, just that it's something he has to do.

He has more pull here. As Dedede's creator and voice actor, he can pull rank and just not include Dedede if they try to force a design he doesn't agree with.

And I'm pretty sure they'd rather not have that happen.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I will say though that Forgotten Land Dedede would make a good alt. Definitely a better pick than Crafted World Yoshi

 

[ninjahmos]

It'll probably never happen, but I think it'd be pretty cool if they added these two Captain Falcon designs as alts:

 

[Kirbeh]

I honestly like the newer look for Dedede, quite a lot actually.
If they wanted to go and update a lot of the roster visually, I suppose I wouldn't mind. (So new default looks for say , etc.) Ideally though, I'd prefer (like I always say) if they just added more costume slots and included both looks. Then each design could even get their own alts. too.

Classic

Modern

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think if they convert to his new design it will be a bit of a loss since his new face doesn't really allow for quite as funny expressions.

But maybe I'm biased because I'm not a fan of Club Penguin Dedede

 

[SharkLord]

I like Dedede’s Forgotten Land design and all, but I like it for that game. I like Dedede the way he is in Smash. As it stands it feels more true to the platonic ideal “King Dedede” anyway - his Super Star influenced look has always been the most consistent.

I do not think HAL will press him on it, anyway. This has only been his look for one game and one remake thus far, it’s hard to say what the future looks like when Dedede’s design is so inconsistent to begin with. But even outside of this, HAL has remained seemingly passive when it comes to Smash and lets Sakurai do his thing with his characters. I guess they have the authority to say yo, we want it to be done this way, but why start being so strict about this stuff now?

I personally can’t really see it changing, and I don’t think it has to or should. And as a Dedede main, I like him as he is.

To be fair, the Forgotten Land design is also based on Dream Land 3 and 64, so it's not like it just materialized out of the ether. That said, it does feel a bit weird to randomly revert to a 20-year-old-design after having the Super Star look as the default for most of the series' history

 

[Louie G.]

To be fair, the Forgotten Land design is also based on Dream Land 3 and 64, so it's not like it just materialized out of the ether. That said, it does feel a bit weird to randomly revert to a 20-year-old-design after having the Super Star look as the default for most of the series' history

Yeah, the DL3 / 64 look in particular is up there with my favorite Dededes in general. But I feel like the fact that I can cite favorite Dededes at all speaks to how all over the place his design has been since inception.

I think I’d be more open to this look becoming the basis for Dedede’s appearance in Smash once it has proven its staying power. Even if it’s founded in other games, those games are very old by now and it disappeared for all this time. If this is just how he’ll look forever now, so be it, his Smash design should probably accommodate that at some point. As it stands it’s way too early for me to say. His appearance in Ultimate certainly doesn’t strike me as out of date or anything yet.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I do like the new Dedede design, but I do think the Super Star design is more fitting for Smash. It allows for more wacky faces which is a big part of Smash Dedede's portrayal.

Modern Dedede is a lot harder to laugh at, which works really well for the narrative of Forgotten Land, but not so much for other games.

 

[AreJay25]

The REAL question people should be asking in regards to Dedede is are they actually going to commit to his current back air

Seriously this move has literally changed in every single game since Brawl, they really don't know what they want it to be lmao

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

The REAL question people should be asking in regards to Dedede is are they actually going to commit to his current back air

Seriously this move has literally changed in every single game since Brawl, they really don't know what they want it to be lmao

I just hope they commit to his Final Smash finally lmao

Waddle Dee Army to Dedede Burst to Dede-Rush, but now he has Masked Dedede, so we can just stop there lol

 

[Kirbeh]

The REAL question people should be asking in regards to Dedede is are they actually going to commit to his current back air

Seriously this move has literally changed in every single game since Brawl, they really don't know what they want it to be lmao

They refuse to make a back air that Dedede mains can commit to in an actual match.

 

[Zerp]

Since I brought up Kirby a bit, I'm also kind of curious.

Do you guys think that after Forgotten Land's reception and the continued use of the model in Return to Dreamland Deluxe that Dedede's model might change to his current look next game?

Depends, is Sakurai the director or not? If he is, then nah probably not happening. If he isn't, then it could go either way really. I could see the next team wanting to keep Dedede's classic Smash look, but I could also see them going for the newer design. Also severely doubt HAL would force them to go either direction, they seem pretty chill with Smash taking creative liberties anyway.

As for which one I'd prefer... I think I lean slightly towards KFL Dedede just because I love the more DL3/64-inspired look but it's not a strong preference. Honestly, I'm good with either lol. Love both designs and would prefer if whichever one doesn't get chosen still makes it as an alternate costume.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Banjo fans realizing their favorite platforming mascot was another swordfighter all along

Ackchually that's a bayonet, so more like a spear

 

[Noipoi]

As long as we get Roar of Dedede in the game I don’t care what Dedede looks like

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

As long as we get Roar of Dedede in the game I don’t care what Dedede looks like

It's not related to Dedede, but would also love Sword of the Surviving Guardian and Two Planets Approach the Roche Limit alongside that at least. You know what, VS Psychic Power Given Form too.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ackchually that's a bayonet, so more like a spear

We already determined spears are actually swords.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The swordfighter discussion is funny, but in case it wasn't clear, swordfighters are mid-range fighters that rely on disjointed hitboxes. Since the definition is divorced from the weapon, any character with disjoints can count, so we can have examples like King Dedede, a superheavyweight/swordfighter hybrid who wields a giant mallet. This also means we have swordwielding characters that aren't swordfighters like Meta Knight, who doesn't have enough range to actually play mid-range like a swordfighter does, and is probably closest to the pixie archetype.

Banjo & Kazooie also kind of fits the swordfighter archetype since almost all of Kazooie's attacks are disjointed (which is a lot more than I thought), though they seem to rely a lot more on projectiles to get their gameplan going, so they lean more into the setup zoner style of play.

Min Min and Simon/Richter don't play mid-range, since they either are relying on long ranged projectiles, or have such long range that they might as well be projectiles, so they don't really count.

 

[SPEN18]

Those are mostly fair imo, but again there's plenty of subjectivity to a lot of those. And much like actual Smash selection, not all of those metrics are going to apply for every choice, every time.

That's not to say they shouldn't be used but a lot of characters you might not consider as being compelling still likely tick a lot of those boxes.

Yeah, I wouldn't argue with that. Every single one has grey areas and points of debate, even things we have hard numbers for like sales, which have to be taken in context, and popularity polls, which often have issues with sample sizes/types or methodology. And of course, everyone values each point differently. Failing in one or more areas is never an automatic disqualifier, as there can be strengths in other areas and, as you say, it's not about hitting a checklist but rather taking everything together.

But those grey areas are also, like, what makes it more interesting to discuss. In retrospect the argument would have probably been more enjoyable on both sides if we were focusing more on those actual issues rather than quabbling so much on which ones are the more subjective or objective ones, and I can take some fault for introducing that distraction.
Then again, I do still think that focusing so much on the uniqueness or fun of the moveset is going to naturally invite questions as to how you compare that factor as directly as you can compare, say, the polling totals, and it's in my view more difficult to argue a clear and convincing advantage for one candidate over another in that department. So maybe the objectivity vs. subjectivity debate was inevitable to occur in some form given the setup for the discussion, but I digress. There were points made about the promotion received through VGC; I can acknowledge that those were still at least attempts to argue for Incineroar beyond just affinity for his playstyle, which I can appreciate even if ultimately I did not view those points to be particularly strong ones in the face of my view that Decidueye, Mimikyu, and others have received more promotion overall.

 

[ninjahmos]

I've said this before, but I'd love to see Masked Dedede as an alt and potentially a boss.

And they should especially include his theme music.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Yeah, I wouldn't argue with that. Every single one has grey areas and points of debate, even things we have hard numbers for like sales, which have to be taken in context, and popularity polls, which often have issues with sample sizes/types or methodology. And of course, everyone values each point differently. Failing in one or more areas is never an automatic disqualifier, as there can be strengths in other areas and, as you say, it's not about hitting a checklist but rather taking everything together.

But those grey areas are also, like, what makes it more interesting to discuss. In retrospect the argument would have probably been more enjoyable on both sides if we were focusing more on those actual issues rather than quabbling so much on which ones are the more subjective or objective ones, and I can take some fault for introducing that distraction.
Then again, I do still think that focusing so much on the uniqueness or fun of the moveset is going to naturally invite questions as to how you compare that factor as directly as you can compare, say, the polling totals, and it's in my view more difficult to argue a clear and convincing advantage for one candidate over another in that department. So maybe the objectivity vs. subjectivity debate was inevitable to occur in some form given the setup for the discussion, but I digress. There were points made about the promotion received through VGC; I can acknowledge that those were still at least attempts to argue for Incineroar beyond just affinity for his playstyle, which I can appreciate even if ultimately I did not view those points to be particularly strong ones in the face of my view that Decidueye, Mimikyu, and others have received more promotion overall.

I feel like my main issue with this convo is that like, I know you've mentioned veterans get this pass of scrutiny or whatever, and don't take this the wrong way because I don't mean it in a mean or disparaging way, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what point you're trying to make?

Like comparing promotion and everything is fine and all, but like Incineroar is already in the game, so I have no idea why you're comparing his promotion after the fact to a Poke Ball Pokemon and a Pokemon that's just not present at all in the game because that feels like something you'd do between potential newcomers like people have been for ages on a Gen 9 Pokemon or back in the day with Zoroark vs Victini and Gen 7 discussion pre-Incineroar.

But like, since Incineroar is already in the game and is now vying for the veteran status next game alongside everyone else in Ultimate, wouldn't it make more sense to compare him against OTHER veterans? In which case most people assume that if cuts are like we think they are, he has a high likelihood to get cut because his competition is so stacked, and it boils down to Sakurai's subjective opinion on what he's made or the resources the next game has available.

Like maybe this is part of the whole "pass of scrutiny" thing, but I just don't really understand why Decidueye and Mimikyu are even in the conversation 8 years after Gen 7 came out and 6 years after Incin has already joined the roster. It feels like a conversation that should be placed like a week after Incin's initial reveal, not 6 years later. and it feels like a really apples and oranges comparison that boils down to "I don't think the Gen 7 Pokemon should've been Incineroar", which is a fine thing to think and it's probably supported by promotion and popularity polls and all that, but it's not exactly something that can be changed at this point, so like...

I guess basically I'm just saying I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

[SharkLord]

I've said this before, but I'd love to see Masked Dedede as an alt and potentially a boss.

And they should especially include his theme music.

Honestly it would be really fun if some of the bosses next game were just supercharged versions of normal fighters. We've already had Giga Bowser and Metal Mario, let's throw in Masked Dedede, Super Sonic, Mega Charizard X, something along those lines.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Honestly it would be really fun if some of the bosses next game were just supercharged versions of normal fighters. We've already had Giga Bowser and Metal Mario, let's throw in Masked Dedede, Super Sonic, Mega Charizard X, something along those lines.

Don't forget the man, the myth, the legend himself.

 

[MBRedboy31]

I don’t think the current Kirby devs would try to force a design change since, like… it seems like they’re usually more concerned with keeping the characters accurate to Smash, instead of the other way around. Examples:

-The Smash/Smash Bros. ability that exists in a few games got updated over time to remain accurate. For example, its most recent appearance in Planet Robobot lets it charge and walk around with the hammer, as was added to Smash 4.
-Playable Meta Knight in RTDL onward has Shuttle Loop, which works a lot like it does in Brawl.
-In all 2D games from Triple Deluxe onward, Kirby was given the ability to roll dodge, spot dodge, and airdodge, using very similar inputs to Smash. He also gained the ability to fastfall in that game, although it doesn’t act much like it does in Smash.
-Meta Knight’s design was updated in Planet Robobot to more closely match his design in Smash (with his logo on one of his shoulders and his more detailed armored shoes.) He also gained the ability to use Galaxia Darkness, which was previously exclusive to Smash.
- A number of Switch games started giving Dedede and his evil clones Gordo Throw in boss fights, starting with Parallel Dedede in Star Allies 4.0 and continuing in Fighters 2 and Forgotten Land.

 

[SPEN18]

I feel like my main issue with this convo is that like, I know you've mentioned veterans get this pass of scrutiny or whatever, and don't take this the wrong way because I don't mean it in a mean or disparaging way, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what point you're trying to make?

Like comparing promotion and everything is fine and all, but like Incineroar is already in the game, so I have no idea why you're comparing his promotion after the fact to a Poke Ball Pokemon and a Pokemon that's just not present at all in the game because that feels like something you'd do between potential newcomers like people have been for ages on a Gen 9 Pokemon or back in the day with Zoroark vs Victini and Gen 7 discussion pre-Incineroar.

But like, since Incineroar is already in the game and is now vying for the veteran status next game alongside everyone else in Ultimate, wouldn't it make more sense to compare him against OTHER veterans? In which case most people assume that if cuts are like we think they are, he has a high likelihood to get cut because his competition is so stacked, and it boils down to Sakurai's subjective opinion on what he's made or the resources the next game has available.

Like maybe this is part of the whole "pass of scrutiny" thing, but I just don't really understand why Decidueye and Mimikyu are even in the conversation 8 years after Gen 7 came out and 6 years after Incin has already joined the roster. It feels like a conversation that should be placed like a week after Incin's initial reveal, not 6 years later. and it feels like a really apples and oranges comparison that boils down to "I don't think the Gen 7 Pokemon should've been Incineroar", which is a fine thing to think and it's probably supported by promotion and popularity polls and all that, but it's not exactly something that can be changed at this point, so like...

I guess basically I'm just saying I don't understand what you're trying to say.

There are two things at play that simply have gotten conflated.
One is my claim that Incineroar was the wrong call for the gen 7 rep; that's principally where the comparison with Mimikyu and Decidueye specifically comes in. The other matter is whether Incineroar should actually return in a future game, and on that I think he should not, given the wealth of other options which I deem stronger choices.

For the second point of discussion, he absolutely should be compared to other veterans and there I think he falls pretty low in the pecking order as well. Though I also think that, since all characters, including veterans, take up resources that could go to other things, it is still relevant to compare veterans to potential newcomers or really anything else that could be focused on instead. So I do think him looking unfavorable in comparison to whatever other possible Pokemon reps, be they Mimikyu or Decidueye or otherwise, is relevant in this context as well (even if that wouldn't be in the context of a one-for-one swap, mind). While I do think Smash sequels are largely iterative on their predecessors, and would not even necessarily argue that they shouldn't be, I also think each roster is a chance to reevaluate everything and, yes, that might mean going back on previous decisions or cutting a character that's not a priority anymore.

But the first point was the point of departure for this particular discussion, and that's where the other gen 7 mons entered. I get it if you say that decision is over and done with and would rather talk about going forward, but personally I think it's still valuable to look at Sakurai's previous methodologies and choices and see how they've panned out or point out where I personally would've done things differently.
Of course, I don't even really agree with holding a spot specifically for a newest-gen rep either, as I'd prefer for every possible choice to be given a fair chance at consideration. But obviously that might just be out of Sakurai's control entirely, and furthermore I did not at the moment want to open that particular can of worms, so in evaluating the decision on Incineroar it was probably more effective to argue under the assumption that we were getting a gen 7 rep no matter what.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

The swordfighter discussion is funny, but in case it wasn't clear, swordfighters are mid-range fighters that rely on disjointed hitboxes. Since the definition is divorced from the weapon, any character with disjoints can count, so we can have examples like King Dedede, a superheavyweight/swordfighter hybrid who wields a giant mallet. This also means we have swordwielding characters that aren't swordfighters like Meta Knight, who doesn't have enough range to actually play mid-range like a swordfighter does, and is probably closest to the pixie archetype.

Banjo & Kazooie also kind of fits the swordfighter archetype since almost all of Kazooie's attacks are disjointed (which is a lot more than I thought), though they seem to rely a lot more on projectiles to get their gameplan going, so they lean more into the setup zoner style of play.

Min Min and Simon/Richter don't play mid-range, since they either are relying on long ranged projectiles, or have such long range that they might as well be projectiles, so they don't really count.

I think we should also make a distinction between sword-like attacks and spear-like attacks then.
Spear-like attacks have long horizontal range, poor vertical range and often a tipper. Most of the Belmont's stuff, Ridley's and Banjo's f-tilt, some of Sephiroth's attacks like f-air, Marth's Shield Breaker...
Meanwhile sword attacks have a more circular range that covers more space around the fighter. Think Ike's, Hero's and Cloud's n-air and f-air, every single Pyra aerial... Banjo's sword-like attack would be his f-smash.
Byleth for example usually uses his spear like a spear (expect for side B) and his sword like a sword.
It probably reads arbitrary but I find these different characteristics to make for very different attacks. It's easier to space with circular attacks, meanwhile the "spear" (maybe it's better to call them "stab") attacks require more precise positioning and are easier to get around.

All this to say, well Banjo can't exactly space like a swordfighter actually would.
I wish they'd change his f-tilt a little to make it more sword-like, and maybe incorporate the classic Beak Bayonet inside Breegull Blaster.

 

[Dinoman96]

Banjo fans realizing their favorite platforming mascot was another swordfighter all along

That's how it's been since Project Dream

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think we should also make a distinction between sword-like attacks and spear-like attacks then.
Spear-like attacks have long horizontal range, poor vertical range and often a tipper. Most of the Belmont's stuff, Ridley's and Banjo's f-tilt, some of Sephiroth's attacks like f-air, Marth's Shield Breaker...
Meanwhile sword attacks have a more circular range that covers more space around the fighter. Think Ike's, Hero's and Cloud's n-air and f-air, every single Pyra aerial... Banjo's sword-like attack would be his f-smash.
Byleth for example usually uses his spear like a spear (expect for side B) and his sword like a sword.
It probably reads arbitrary but I find these different characteristics to make for very different attacks. It's easier to space with circular attacks, meanwhile the "spear" (maybe it's better to call them "stab") attacks require more precise positioning and are easier to get around.

All this to say, well Banjo can't exactly space like a swordfighter actually would.
I wish they'd change his f-tilt a little to make it more sword-like, and maybe incorporate the classic Beak Bayonet inside Breegull Blaster.

Hm. That makes sense to a degree. These types of moves do change the feel of the character, though I'm not sure how well it affects their archetype, and it does lead to even more funny stuff like Sephiroth having a lot of spear moves despite wielding a sword.

What would be your take on multi-thrust moves? They've got spear properties (except for tipper I'm sure), but the fact that they stab a bunch of times gives them more horrizontal range.

 

[Perkilator]

Ackchually that's a bayonet, so more like a spear

What are you talking about? Bayonetta’s already in the game!

 

[BuckleyTim]

I don't dislike BWD, but it would stink if he was the only new Kirby rep we got next game, if only because my most wanted Kirby reps only work when you already have the 4 modern Kirby guys in already.

 

[Laniv]

Well, it is now November 21st where I live, so today is a quadruple threat in terms of anniversaries:

1. The 10th anniversary of Super Smash Bros. for Wii U
2. The 10th anniversary of Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire
3. The 23rd anniversary of Super Smash Bros. Melee
4. The 20th anniversary of the Nintendo DS (!)

You are now aware of the ceaseless march of time.

EDIT: wait, wait, Pokemon Gold and Silver are 25 years old today as well

 

[Gengar84]

To get my mind off of recent events, I’ve started obsessing over the new season of Arcane. Apologies if I bring this up too much and no one else really cares but that’s where my head’s at. Anyway, season 2 is amazing so far even though the pacing is a little too fast to fully flesh out everything. This season has made me like Jinx even more as a character and I think she’s the perfect type of character for Smash. She’s got a really fun design, cool weapons, and now a really deep and emotional story thanks to Arcane. Vi is also great but I feel like she’d struggle to differentiate herself enough from Little Mac’s playstyle.

They recently released a new trailer for Jinx in their fighting game 2XKO. That game is looking awesome even though I don’t play traditional fighters much. The graphics remind me a lot of Guilty Gear, which I love and I feel like the character designs are even stronger. I think the Jinx trailer shows a little how she could play in Smash. She’s not entirely projectile based and has some melee attacks too.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

I feel like the timing of the current season of Arcane and the planned release of 2XKO in 2025 could line up really well for her inclusion in Smash. Although I hear 2XKO has been delayed countless times so who knows if they’ll actually hit that 2025 release goal or not.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

With the swordfighter talk, I decided I wanted to try and classify each character's archetype. This is what I came up with:

Spoiler

Balanced Fighters: Characters with traits that allow them to operate in all ranges, though generally, they prefer close range.

• Defining Member: Mario
• Other Members: Kirby, Luigi, Ness, Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, Mr. Game & Watch, Pit, Dark Pit, Ivysaur, Lucas, Lucario, Wolf, Palutena, Joker
• Hybrid Members: Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man

Brawler: Close range fighters that rely on speed and fast buttons to get in and deal damage. Very commonly, they have mediocre recoveries.

• Defining Member: Fox
• Other Members: Yoshi, Pikachu, Captain Falcon, Pichu, Falco, Roy, Chrom, Squirtle, Little Mac, Mii Brawler, Inkling
• Hybrid Members: Mythra

FGC (Fighting Game Character): Characters with limited mobility, high damage, and unique combos achieved with their respective fighting game mechanics.

• Defining Member: Ryu
• Other Members: Ken, Terry
• Hybrid Members: Kazuya

Item Character: Characters that are able to produce, and rely on, their own items.

• Defining Member: Peach
• Other Members: Daisy, Diddy Kong, Mega Man
• Hybrid Members: R.O.B.

Pixie: Highly mobile fighters that lack the speedy attacks to challenge opponents in close-range, so they rely on their mobility to punish mistakes in neutral.

• Defining Member: Sheik
• Other Members: Jigglypuff, Meta Knight, Zero Suit Samus, Wario, Sonic, Greninja, Bayonetta
• Hybrid Members:

Projectile Zoner: Long-range fighters that rely on a wide variety of projectiles to control the stage.

• Defining Member: Samus
• Other Members: Dark Samus, Zelda, Young Link, Snake, Olimar, Toon Link, Villager, Mii Gunner, Duck Hunt, isabelle, Banjo & Kazooie
• Hybrid Members: Link, R.O.B., Mii Swordfighter, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man, Robin, Simon, Richter, Hero

Physical Zoner: Long-range fighters that rely on long ranged, non-projectile hitboxes to keep opponents away from them.

• Defining Member: Min Min
• Other Members:
• Hybrid Members: Simon, Richter, Sephiroth

Superheavyweight: Large, generally super heavy fighters that feature slow, but powerful attacks, generally low mobility, and often theoretically high survivability that doesn’t quite pan out in practice. They also generally have a command grab.

• Defining Member: Donkey Kong
• Other Members: Bowser, Ganondorf, Charizard, Bowser Jr., Ridley, King K. Rool, Incineroar, Piranha Plant
• Hybrid Members: Ike, King Dedede, Pyra, Kazuya

Swap Fighter: Characters that swap between each other, allowing them to use their strengths to cover the other’s weaknesses.

• Defining Member: Zelda/Sheik (no longer in the game)
• Other Members: Pokémon Trainer, Pyra/Mythra
• Hybrid Members:

Swordfighter: Mid-range fighters that rely on disjointed attacks for keeping opponents out of close range.

• Defining Member: Marth
• Other Members: Lucina, Shulk, Cloud, Corrin, Byleth, Sora
• Hybrid Members: Link, Ike, King Dedede, Mii Swordfighter, Robin, Hero, Sephiroth, Pyra, Mythra

Tandem Fighter: Characters who feature AI controlled buddies that allow them to setup unique interactions due to the presence of their buddy.

• Defining Member: Ice Climbers
• Other Members: Rosalina & Luma
• Hybrid Members:

Steve: A fighter that forces you to approach, makes it disadvantageous to do so by making you approach from above or attack walls to get to him, and punishes you for trying.

• Defining Member: Steve
• Other Members: Steve
• Hybrid Members: There are no hybrids, there is only Steve

My main concerns with this lineup are:

• Knowledge Gaps: There are likely fighters I assumed fit one archetype, but they very much don't.
• Missing Archetypes: There may be a few archetypes that should be here, but I either didn't think about them, or wasn't able to define them in a way that made them seem distinct from the others.
• Definitions: I'm sure a decent amount of my archetypal definitions are pretty terrible, even considering that they're the short, nutshell type descriptions.
• Item Characters: Item based characters do stand out from the rest, but the items don't quite inform how they play like, say, the item throw characters in traditional fighting games. It might be best to remove it and put the characters in it elsewhere.
• Steve: Steve as an archetype is funny, but also a cop-out. Like, he is unique in fighting games in general, but does that really mean that he's carved out a new character archetype? And if so, we should probably call it something else. lol

 

[Louie G.]

Swap Fighter: Characters that swap between each other, allowing them to use their strengths to cover the other’s weaknesses.

Nowadays I feel like the defining member is Pyra / Mythra, since Zelda / Sheik has not only been phased out but was hardly ever a very intuitive execution of concept.

Pyra and Mythra are simplified down to what’s effectively a fancy stance change gimmick, a really straightforward portrayal of what this kind of character means. Pyra is heavier and she hits hard, Mythra is a light, speedy rushdown type. And switching between them on the fly to extend combos or suit the need has been made quick and easy. I’m assuming based on the others you’ve mentioned this is more of a “who came first” deal, but I just felt like acknowledging how these two feel the most synonymous and representative to the core archetype.

 

[ninjahmos]

I'm not sure if this has already been shown here, but someone apparently made a moveset for Knuckles in Smash Ultimate:

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm not sure if this has already been shown here, but someone apparently made a moveset for Knuckles in Smash Ultimate:

I thought his movement physics were kinda jank, but watching them do glide cancel aerials...I see the vision.

Although, while it makes sense that he gets Spin Charge, the powerful tools he has make it absolutely too much on him (at least without nerfing it so that you can't camp with it, which admittedly should happen, even with Sonic's version). Other than that it seems like one of the few movesets that isn't ridiculously broken conceptually. They'd just need to do some balancing on his glide and his forward aerial, which seem a bit overtuned at the moment.

Overall though, this is amazing.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Although, while it makes sense that he gets Spin Charge, the powerful tools he has make it absolutely too much on him

Unfortunately you can't really blame the SSBU modder who made this on that so much as that you can blame the Project+ devs who designed his kit. Because this is a port of P+ Knuckles using his SSBU model.

Not saying that's a bad thing, just explaining what it is.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Unfortunately you can't really blame the SSBU modder who made this on that so much as that you can blame the Project+ devs who designed his kit. Because this is a port of P+ Knuckles using his SSBU model.

Not saying that's a bad thing, just explaining what it is.

I had suspected this in the beginning, but didn't know enough about it to say so for sure. It does explain how well thought out the moveset is.

And yeah, I'd imagine that any Project+ character would be absolutely broken in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (or pretty much any official smash game for that matter) due to the much higher average character power.