Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Since I brought up Kirby a bit, I'm also kind of curious.

Do you guys think that after Forgotten Land's reception and the continued use of the model in Return to Dreamland Deluxe that Dedede's model might change to his current look next game?

I imagine HAL might want to push for the updated design.

It depends wholly on what Sakurai thinks. It's his creation.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It depends wholly on what Sakurai thinks. It's his creation.

It's his creation but also HAL's property.

I know we don't really think much of any potential legal clashes on first parties but we must remember that Sakurai is a freelancer.

He's not part of HAL, he's not part of Nintendo, he has to negotiate for the right to use the classic design if HAL insists on pushing for the new one just like he would need to negotiate for things with any other company. Not saying he can't pull it off, because he might, just that it's something he has to do.

 

[Louie G.]

I like Dedede’s Forgotten Land design and all, but I like it for that game. I like Dedede the way he is in Smash. As it stands it feels more true to the platonic ideal “King Dedede” anyway - his Super Star influenced look has always been the most consistent.

I do not think HAL will press him on it, anyway. This has only been his look for one game and one remake thus far, it’s hard to say what the future looks like when Dedede’s design is so inconsistent to begin with. But even outside of this, HAL has remained seemingly passive when it comes to Smash and lets Sakurai do his thing with his characters. I guess they have the authority to say yo, we want it to be done this way, but why start being so strict about this stuff now?

I personally can’t really see it changing, and I don’t think it has to or should. And as a Dedede main, I like him as he is.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

It's his creation but also HAL's property.

I know we don't really think much of any potential legal clashes on first parties but we must remember that Sakurai is a freelancer now.

He's not part of HAL, he's not part of Nintendo, he has to negotiate for the right to use the classic design if HAL insists on pushing for the new one just like he would need to negotiate for things with any other company. Not saying he can't pull it off, because he might, just that it's something he has to do.

He has more pull here. As Dedede's creator and voice actor, he can pull rank and just not include Dedede if they try to force a design he doesn't agree with.

And I'm pretty sure they'd rather not have that happen.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I will say though that Forgotten Land Dedede would make a good alt. Definitely a better pick than Crafted World Yoshi

 

[ninjahmos]

It'll probably never happen, but I think it'd be pretty cool if they added these two Captain Falcon designs as alts:

 

[Kirbeh]

I honestly like the newer look for Dedede, quite a lot actually.
If they wanted to go and update a lot of the roster visually, I suppose I wouldn't mind. (So new default looks for say , etc.) Ideally though, I'd prefer (like I always say) if they just added more costume slots and included both looks. Then each design could even get their own alts. too.

Classic

Modern

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think if they convert to his new design it will be a bit of a loss since his new face doesn't really allow for quite as funny expressions.

But maybe I'm biased because I'm not a fan of Club Penguin Dedede

 

[SharkLord]

I like Dedede’s Forgotten Land design and all, but I like it for that game. I like Dedede the way he is in Smash. As it stands it feels more true to the platonic ideal “King Dedede” anyway - his Super Star influenced look has always been the most consistent.

I do not think HAL will press him on it, anyway. This has only been his look for one game and one remake thus far, it’s hard to say what the future looks like when Dedede’s design is so inconsistent to begin with. But even outside of this, HAL has remained seemingly passive when it comes to Smash and lets Sakurai do his thing with his characters. I guess they have the authority to say yo, we want it to be done this way, but why start being so strict about this stuff now?

I personally can’t really see it changing, and I don’t think it has to or should. And as a Dedede main, I like him as he is.

To be fair, the Forgotten Land design is also based on Dream Land 3 and 64, so it's not like it just materialized out of the ether. That said, it does feel a bit weird to randomly revert to a 20-year-old-design after having the Super Star look as the default for most of the series' history

 

[Louie G.]

To be fair, the Forgotten Land design is also based on Dream Land 3 and 64, so it's not like it just materialized out of the ether. That said, it does feel a bit weird to randomly revert to a 20-year-old-design after having the Super Star look as the default for most of the series' history

Yeah, the DL3 / 64 look in particular is up there with my favorite Dededes in general. But I feel like the fact that I can cite favorite Dededes at all speaks to how all over the place his design has been since inception.

I think I’d be more open to this look becoming the basis for Dedede’s appearance in Smash once it has proven its staying power. Even if it’s founded in other games, those games are very old by now and it disappeared for all this time. If this is just how he’ll look forever now, so be it, his Smash design should probably accommodate that at some point. As it stands it’s way too early for me to say. His appearance in Ultimate certainly doesn’t strike me as out of date or anything yet.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I do like the new Dedede design, but I do think the Super Star design is more fitting for Smash. It allows for more wacky faces which is a big part of Smash Dedede's portrayal.

Modern Dedede is a lot harder to laugh at, which works really well for the narrative of Forgotten Land, but not so much for other games.

 

[AreJay25]

The REAL question people should be asking in regards to Dedede is are they actually going to commit to his current back air

Seriously this move has literally changed in every single game since Brawl, they really don't know what they want it to be lmao

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

The REAL question people should be asking in regards to Dedede is are they actually going to commit to his current back air

Seriously this move has literally changed in every single game since Brawl, they really don't know what they want it to be lmao

I just hope they commit to his Final Smash finally lmao

Waddle Dee Army to Dedede Burst to Dede-Rush, but now he has Masked Dedede, so we can just stop there lol

 

[Kirbeh]

The REAL question people should be asking in regards to Dedede is are they actually going to commit to his current back air

Seriously this move has literally changed in every single game since Brawl, they really don't know what they want it to be lmao

They refuse to make a back air that Dedede mains can commit to in an actual match.

 

[Zerp]

Since I brought up Kirby a bit, I'm also kind of curious.

Do you guys think that after Forgotten Land's reception and the continued use of the model in Return to Dreamland Deluxe that Dedede's model might change to his current look next game?

Depends, is Sakurai the director or not? If he is, then nah probably not happening. If he isn't, then it could go either way really. I could see the next team wanting to keep Dedede's classic Smash look, but I could also see them going for the newer design. Also severely doubt HAL would force them to go either direction, they seem pretty chill with Smash taking creative liberties anyway.

As for which one I'd prefer... I think I lean slightly towards KFL Dedede just because I love the more DL3/64-inspired look but it's not a strong preference. Honestly, I'm good with either lol. Love both designs and would prefer if whichever one doesn't get chosen still makes it as an alternate costume.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Banjo fans realizing their favorite platforming mascot was another swordfighter all along

Ackchually that's a bayonet, so more like a spear

 

[Noipoi]

As long as we get Roar of Dedede in the game I don’t care what Dedede looks like

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

As long as we get Roar of Dedede in the game I don’t care what Dedede looks like

It's not related to Dedede, but would also love Sword of the Surviving Guardian and Two Planets Approach the Roche Limit alongside that at least. You know what, VS Psychic Power Given Form too.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ackchually that's a bayonet, so more like a spear

We already determined spears are actually swords.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The swordfighter discussion is funny, but in case it wasn't clear, swordfighters are mid-range fighters that rely on disjointed hitboxes. Since the definition is divorced from the weapon, any character with disjoints can count, so we can have examples like King Dedede, a superheavyweight/swordfighter hybrid who wields a giant mallet. This also means we have swordwielding characters that aren't swordfighters like Meta Knight, who doesn't have enough range to actually play mid-range like a swordfighter does, and is probably closest to the pixie archetype.

Banjo & Kazooie also kind of fits the swordfighter archetype since almost all of Kazooie's attacks are disjointed (which is a lot more than I thought), though they seem to rely a lot more on projectiles to get their gameplan going, so they lean more into the setup zoner style of play.

Min Min and Simon/Richter don't play mid-range, since they either are relying on long ranged projectiles, or have such long range that they might as well be projectiles, so they don't really count.

 

[SPEN18]

Those are mostly fair imo, but again there's plenty of subjectivity to a lot of those. And much like actual Smash selection, not all of those metrics are going to apply for every choice, every time.

That's not to say they shouldn't be used but a lot of characters you might not consider as being compelling still likely tick a lot of those boxes.

Yeah, I wouldn't argue with that. Every single one has grey areas and points of debate, even things we have hard numbers for like sales, which have to be taken in context, and popularity polls, which often have issues with sample sizes/types or methodology. And of course, everyone values each point differently. Failing in one or more areas is never an automatic disqualifier, as there can be strengths in other areas and, as you say, it's not about hitting a checklist but rather taking everything together.

But those grey areas are also, like, what makes it more interesting to discuss. In retrospect the argument would have probably been more enjoyable on both sides if we were focusing more on those actual issues rather than quabbling so much on which ones are the more subjective or objective ones, and I can take some fault for introducing that distraction.
Then again, I do still think that focusing so much on the uniqueness or fun of the moveset is going to naturally invite questions as to how you compare that factor as directly as you can compare, say, the polling totals, and it's in my view more difficult to argue a clear and convincing advantage for one candidate over another in that department. So maybe the objectivity vs. subjectivity debate was inevitable to occur in some form given the setup for the discussion, but I digress. There were points made about the promotion received through VGC; I can acknowledge that those were still at least attempts to argue for Incineroar beyond just affinity for his playstyle, which I can appreciate even if ultimately I did not view those points to be particularly strong ones in the face of my view that Decidueye, Mimikyu, and others have received more promotion overall.

 

[ninjahmos]

I've said this before, but I'd love to see Masked Dedede as an alt and potentially a boss.

And they should especially include his theme music.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Yeah, I wouldn't argue with that. Every single one has grey areas and points of debate, even things we have hard numbers for like sales, which have to be taken in context, and popularity polls, which often have issues with sample sizes/types or methodology. And of course, everyone values each point differently. Failing in one or more areas is never an automatic disqualifier, as there can be strengths in other areas and, as you say, it's not about hitting a checklist but rather taking everything together.

But those grey areas are also, like, what makes it more interesting to discuss. In retrospect the argument would have probably been more enjoyable on both sides if we were focusing more on those actual issues rather than quabbling so much on which ones are the more subjective or objective ones, and I can take some fault for introducing that distraction.
Then again, I do still think that focusing so much on the uniqueness or fun of the moveset is going to naturally invite questions as to how you compare that factor as directly as you can compare, say, the polling totals, and it's in my view more difficult to argue a clear and convincing advantage for one candidate over another in that department. So maybe the objectivity vs. subjectivity debate was inevitable to occur in some form given the setup for the discussion, but I digress. There were points made about the promotion received through VGC; I can acknowledge that those were still at least attempts to argue for Incineroar beyond just affinity for his playstyle, which I can appreciate even if ultimately I did not view those points to be particularly strong ones in the face of my view that Decidueye, Mimikyu, and others have received more promotion overall.

I feel like my main issue with this convo is that like, I know you've mentioned veterans get this pass of scrutiny or whatever, and don't take this the wrong way because I don't mean it in a mean or disparaging way, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what point you're trying to make?

Like comparing promotion and everything is fine and all, but like Incineroar is already in the game, so I have no idea why you're comparing his promotion after the fact to a Poke Ball Pokemon and a Pokemon that's just not present at all in the game because that feels like something you'd do between potential newcomers like people have been for ages on a Gen 9 Pokemon or back in the day with Zoroark vs Victini and Gen 7 discussion pre-Incineroar.

But like, since Incineroar is already in the game and is now vying for the veteran status next game alongside everyone else in Ultimate, wouldn't it make more sense to compare him against OTHER veterans? In which case most people assume that if cuts are like we think they are, he has a high likelihood to get cut because his competition is so stacked, and it boils down to Sakurai's subjective opinion on what he's made or the resources the next game has available.

Like maybe this is part of the whole "pass of scrutiny" thing, but I just don't really understand why Decidueye and Mimikyu are even in the conversation 8 years after Gen 7 came out and 6 years after Incin has already joined the roster. It feels like a conversation that should be placed like a week after Incin's initial reveal, not 6 years later. and it feels like a really apples and oranges comparison that boils down to "I don't think the Gen 7 Pokemon should've been Incineroar", which is a fine thing to think and it's probably supported by promotion and popularity polls and all that, but it's not exactly something that can be changed at this point, so like...

I guess basically I'm just saying I don't understand what you're trying to say.