Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

Roxas plays nothing like Sora

sometimes he does

 

[Shinuto]

I can't help but feel that characters like Shovel Knight or Shantae are kinda remnants of a previous era of speculation rather than being in tune with what is fresh and current. When we talk about these characters I get Smash 4 flashbacks. It's not to say people can't or don't still support them, but I think Assist Trophy or costume is about the extent of what we'll see them reach. Their community support has already peaked and on a wider scale this is about how big these games and characters are anyway, and I realize they're both still getting new material but it's not setting the world on fire right now either.

Games like Hades and Undertale, despite the latter being hardly much newer than Shovel Knight is, feel more evergreen and true to Nintendo's demonstrated priorities and the current buzz. Shovel Knight was THE indie game back in 2014-2015 but nowadays feels more emblematic of this era than it does representative of what indie games currently are or have managed to grow into. Hades has been shockingly present within Nintendo's social media marketing and did get that spirit added later on, Undertale speaks for itself but Toby has his toes dug into just about everyone in the industry at this point. Deltarune also gets to show up in full fledged Directs that announce its simultaneous console release.

Shantae's main boon at this point is that you could say Wayforward is a somewhat significant partner of Nintendo's that may eventually call for further collaboration. I think that's ultimately what would put her over the edge if anything, but I have my doubts about how necessary that is. When a major company like Koei Tecmo is still waiting their turn I don't think Wayforward is necessarily going to be seen as the tip top priority, but Nintendo has been pretty close with them. Shovel Knight though, I dunno. I think he's kinda **** out of luck for Smash nowadays.

Both Shantae and Shovel Knight literally have unreleased announced titles coming soon they couldn't be MORE evergreen

 

[NintenZ]

Simmer down folks.

We all know who the Ubisoft character is going to be.

 

[Shinuto]

Simmer down folks.

We all know who the Ubisoft character is going to be.
View attachment 395527

Whatever needs to happen to kill that ip permanently, needs to happen...

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Simmer down folks.

We all know who the Ubisoft character is going to be.
View attachment 395527

Not the Panda. You had one job.

 

[Louie G.]

Both Shantae and Shovel Knight literally have unreleased announced titles coming soon they couldn't be MORE evergreen

I addressed that they have new titles coming up. I don't know if this argument really resonates with people, but new games doesn't necessarily correlate with "buzz" which was my main point. If we compare the excitement around the Shantae GBA game (which btw, I think is really ****ing cool personally) with Hades 2 and Deltarune it really isn't a contest at all. I don't mean to be so dismissive but it's just how it is right now, SK and Shantae aren't really blockbuster series.

So yes, the IP is still active. But the indie scene has developed in such a way over the last ten years that I don't think these series have managed to keep up with the progressively larger, more viral and widespread popularity of its contemporaries. I'd also suggest Hades and Undertale (and Cuphead) have been adopted into the gaming "canon" more unanimously, to be celebrated in industry award shows etc. Shantae (series) has always been somewhat middling in popularity but, in fairness, its characters are pretty popular among artists at the very least. Shovel Knight I feel is a star that has largely faded but I'm not trying to say it's over and done - we'll have to wait and see what the next game looks like, for all I know it could be a massive revival of excitement around the IP.

For many this probably sounds like splitting hairs, hopefully a few people here understand what I'm trying to get at. I simply think the indie umbrella has grown far more vast than it was when we all gravitated toward Shovel Knight and Shantae in 2015.

 

[ninjahmos]

You know who I think would make an awesome Ubisoft rep, even though he's definitely not getting in?

Sam Fisher (Splinter Cell)

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

So, what do you think of the state of the Star Fox franchise?

Both in the context of Smash and outside of it?

Star Fox within Smash is doing fine; I've never been terribly into the play style of Fox/Falco/Wolf but they're all beloved and there's not much reason to really change them. Krystal would be a nice addition but I'm not holding my breath. As far outside it... oh boy.

Star Fox is perhaps the biggest victim of Nintendo's tendencies towards excess experimentation because it was ultimately innovation without proper evolution. Following SF64, game after game would introduce concepts that were never really followed up on, largely because the next entry was focused on its next shiny toy rather than continuing to develop previous ideas. The strongest Nintendo IP's tend into try new things for sequels while also building on top what's already there. A Kirby is created with a basic Dreamland, gets its real identity with Adventure, and becomes truly refined with Super Star. Same with a Mario where the genesis is with Mario Bros, is properly formed with SMB, and launches into the stratosphere with SMB3.

I'd argue Star Fox never really got its Super Mario Bros 3 moment, and the momentum (not to mention sales) stalled as a result. Silliness like the insistence on controlling with the stylus paired with an RTS emphasis in Command weren't ideal and Star Fox Zero solving a problem that didn't exist with the second screen focus was emblematic of Nintendo's Wii U era missteps.

But even Assault, as lauded as it is, is a game clearly based around a multiplayer mode and the limited scope of the single player campaign reflects it. The multiple paths to incentivize replaybility? Gone. A strong growth of the rail shooter/all range mode? Compromised in favor of split prominence to it and a third person combat half with wonky controls. More complex level design to add depth to playing? Hurt due to the stages being designed for multiplayer. I would not say it's worse than SF64, but it feels at best a lateral move that doesn't really build upon the strengths of the game that came before it. It's a fantastic multiplayer experience that has an okay campaign mode included seemingly to have more appeal in the marketplace.

There's a sentiment that modern fans don't have an interest in arcade shooters, and that's probably right, but I'd also say that SF is a questionable example of that given its never really gotten a straightforward sequel to its most successful entry. The 3DS was a chance to right that, but it went for a straight remaster which ultimately did little to really move the series forward either.

At this point there's really two paths for Star Fox. You give it its Forgotten Land/Breath of the Wild/Mario Odyssey coming out title that puts the player in a big non-linear galaxy where you can take missions, win money to improve your ships, take on select on-rails segments, and build upon each of the best parts of the games that came before it. Or you just have a series of modest arcade style shooters that do very (and I can't emphasize this enough) small experiments to give each one its own identity.

Go big, go reliable, or go home, because going quirky has done this series few favors.

 

[ninjahmos]

I really hope F-Zero gets a sequel, especially after F-Zero 99.

You know what I think would be pretty cool for the F-Zero series? Spin-offs. For example, there could be an open-world beat 'em up/racing hybrid where you play as Captain Falcon, capturing bounties and racing, and a third-person shooter/racing hybrid where you play as Pico.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Do you think Raymans got a good chance? I can't remember if it's just rumors but he's getting a new game and I think a remake with Michael Ancel involved

I think his chances are decent, he probably won't appear in the base game but for the DLC I think he has a far better shot than people might give him. Ubisoft pushing for him to be in Smash gives him a lot of legitimacy, especially since they've cooperated heavily with Nintendo on projects already.

Plus since he starred in his own DLC in Sparks of Hope it means he's technically crossed over with the Mario universe already!

So, what do you think of the state of the Star Fox franchise?

Both in the context of Smash and outside of it?

It's dead atm, and if it does come back then for the love of god don't rehash the same story over and over as before. Bring Krystal back to the main cast and progress the story forward in a good way, and PLEASE do something fun with the gameplay besides gimmicky bull**** that ends up killing the experience like zero.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

A new 3d F-Zero that combines X/GX with 99 would be amazing.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

On all marketing they never refer to the Switch just the "Nintendo" or the Nintendo

bottom text

 

[cashregister9]

It's hard for me to agree that Shantae and Shovel Knight are antiquated in any way really, not only do they still get games but are also incredibly well known

I'd argue that games like Super Meat Boy, Braid and Fez are more products of a bygone era. The discourse has simply changed, you still see people talk about how good Shovel Knight is, you don't see Braid thinkpieces anymore.

Now an argument I could see is that Shantae isn't even indie. Considering how big Wayforward is.

 

[Shinuto]

It's hard for me to agree that Shantae and Shovel Knight are antiquated in any way really, not only do they still get games but are incredibly well known

I'd argue that games like Super Meat Boy, Braid and Fez are more products of a bygone era. The discourse has simply changed, you still see people talk about how good shovel Knight is, you don't see Braid Think pieces anymore.

Now an argument I could see is that Shantae isn't even indie. Considering how big Wayforward is.

Braid is mid tier decent fun game with time control gimmick applied to an otherwise basic platformer with overly obtuse undertones and stupid secrets and Fez had it's jack*** fartsniffing creator and a puzzle so badly designed HUNDREDS of people working together could not actually solve it and had to brute force the solution by trial and error. Meatboy is great frustrating fun silly meat stuff
Also Shantae was literally in a indie world direct earlier this year....do you people just not acknowledge those things as existing?

 

[Shinuto]

I addressed that they have new titles coming up. I don't know if this argument really resonates with people, but new games doesn't necessarily correlate with "buzz" which was my main point. If we compare the excitement around the Shantae GBA game (which btw, I think is really ****ing cool personally) with Hades 2 and Deltarune it really isn't a contest at all. I don't mean to be so dismissive but it's just how it is right now, SK and Shantae aren't really blockbuster series.

So yes, the IP is still active. But the indie scene has developed in such a way over the last ten years that I don't think these series have managed to keep up with the progressively larger, more viral and widespread popularity of its contemporaries. I'd also suggest Hades and Undertale (and Cuphead) have been adopted into the gaming "canon" more unanimously, to be celebrated in industry award shows etc. Shantae (series) has always been somewhat middling in popularity but, in fairness, its characters are pretty popular among artists at the very least. Shovel Knight I feel is a star that has largely faded but I'm not trying to say it's over and done - we'll have to wait and see what the next game looks like, for all I know it could be a massive revival of excitement around the IP.

For many this probably sounds like splitting hairs, hopefully a few people here understand what I'm trying to get at. I simply think the indie umbrella has grown far more vast than it was when we all gravitated toward Shovel Knight and Shantae in 2015.

When the **** has anyone been talking about Deltarun lately?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

We all know who the real indie that will show up, right?

Spoiler: Just her

please help me she has me locked in the basement I never had before

 

[PeridotGX]

I think his chances are decent, he probably won't appear in the base game but for the DLC I think he has a far better shot than people might give him. Ubisoft pushing for him to be in Smash gives him a lot of legitimacy, especially since they've cooperated heavily with Nintendo on projects already.

Plus since he starred in his own DLC in Sparks of Hope it means he's technically crossed over with the Mario universe already!

I'm going to disagree here - I think Rayman is the rare third party that's likelier in the base game than as DLC. If he's as obscure in Japan as people are saying, I could see some folks over there getting genuinely upset they have to pay for him. He would probably go over better in the base game. I can't imagine Ubisoft would care either way - Rayman has had NPC content for two games in a row, I get the impression they want him in regardless of the situation . If they really want the DLC money, they could easily pull a Smash 4 Capcom and get Ezio or a Rabbid or the Prince of Persia as well.

 

[Shinuto]

We all know who the real indie that will show up, right?

Spoiler: Just her

please help me she has me locked in the basement I never had before

I legit want DDLC in Smash so it can be full circle

 

[cashregister9]

This will be the actual indie inclusion

 

[TheLamerGamer]

When the **** has anyone been talking about Deltarun lately?

I am a huge fan of both undertale / deltarune and shovel knight. I adore both series.

Online I actively have to look for new shovel knight content, tweets, videos, etc.

Undertale is unavoidable. Denying the fact that it has, to some extent, become a cultural phenomenon is just ignoring the facts. My sisters don't really play video games other than roblox and mario party, neither of them have heard of shovel knight (I know this because I have an amiibo and they have no clue what it is). They know what undertale is, they know who sans and papyrus are, etc. Undertale is massively popular in japan as well, the reaction to the sans costume was big there too iirc. It gets spots in main directs, whenever Toby Fox says anything people go nuts (like, he can release a newsletter and it will fill my timeline for days, even if I haven't interacted with undertale stuff for ages).

You don't have to like undertale, but it is still popular, and still relevant.

 

[Shinuto]

I am a huge fan of both undertale / deltarune and shovel knight. I adore both series.

Online I actively have to look for new shovel knight content, tweets, videos, etc.

Undertale is unavoidable. Denying the fact that it has, to some extent, become a cultural phenomenon is just ignoring the facts. My sisters don't really play video games other than roblox and mario party, neither of them have heard of shovel knight (I know this because I have an amiibo and they have no clue what it is). They know what undertale is, they know who sans and papyrus are, etc. Undertale is massively popular in japan as well, the reaction to the sans costume was big there too iirc. It gets spots in main directs, whenever Toby Fox says anything people go nuts (like, he can release a newsletter and it will fill my timeline for days, even if I haven't interacted with undertale stuff for ages).

You don't have to like undertale, but it is still popular, and still relevant.

No I love it but I've never seen it recently anymore

 

[TheLamerGamer]

No I love it but I've never seen it recently anymore

Ah ok, I guess we just see very different parts of the internet, sorry if that sounded at all accusatory (no clue if it does, I am ill and in the middle of an all-nighter programming assignment so brain is very very fried).

But yeah, even if I've not engaged in it for a while I see undertale and deltarune stuff pretty frequently, and I can guarantee when the next chapters release it'll explode again. And, after the response to sans' costume, I can imagine nintendo wanting to cash in on that.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

Can someone please make a 5x5 grid for most wanted newcomers for the next game? Similar to the Marvel vs Capcom character wish lists.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

No I love it but I've never seen it recently anymore

I see it all over Twitter every time a Newsletter comes out because people are really excited for Chapters 3 and 4 lol

 

[Perkilator]

View attachment 395528

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I was hoping for this to pop up, thank you.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Honestly, I could see further indie representation in the next game with more costumes, music tracks, references, etc. but none getting an actual playable fighter. Undertale seems like the most likely candidate and if the Sans costume still feels satisfactory (which is entirely possible)? It's hard for me to see anyone else being prominent enough.

 

[Shinuto]

Honestly, I could see further indie representation in the next game with more costumes, music tracks, references, etc. but none getting an actual playable fighter. Undertale seems like the most likely candidate and if the Sans costume still feels satisfactory (which is entirely possible)? It's hard for me to see anyone else being prominent enough.

You can't really say that given the reaction all the indies in ultimate got and Shantae specifically literally being apart of a highly requested group of characters made into mii costumes

 

[SharkLord]

I addressed that they have new titles coming up. I don't know if this argument really resonates with people, but new games doesn't necessarily correlate with "buzz" which was my main point. If we compare the excitement around the Shantae GBA game (which btw, I think is really ****ing cool personally) with Hades 2 and Deltarune it really isn't a contest at all. I don't mean to be so dismissive but it's just how it is right now, SK and Shantae aren't really blockbuster series.

So yes, the IP is still active. But the indie scene has developed in such a way over the last ten years that I don't think these series have managed to keep up with the progressively larger, more viral and widespread popularity of its contemporaries. I'd also suggest Hades and Undertale (and Cuphead) have been adopted into the gaming "canon" more unanimously, to be celebrated in industry award shows etc. Shantae (series) has always been somewhat middling in popularity but, in fairness, its characters are pretty popular among artists at the very least. Shovel Knight I feel is a star that has largely faded but I'm not trying to say it's over and done - we'll have to wait and see what the next game looks like, for all I know it could be a massive revival of excitement around the IP.

For many this probably sounds like splitting hairs, hopefully a few people here understand what I'm trying to get at. I simply think the indie umbrella has grown far more vast than it was when we all gravitated toward Shovel Knight and Shantae in 2015.

I think a big part of the changing indie scene is that there's a million and a half teams of one-to-a-dozen guys making their own games. You have to be lucky enough to stick out against the sea of other indies, and if you do make it big, again, you're still just a team of one-to-a-dozen guys, so unless you've really gone viral like Undertale did, there's a good likelihood that you won't put out a sequel in time to keep up the momentum. Especially if you want to work on something else, like how Yacht Club's occupied making Mina the Hollower and won't have time for that teased new Shovel Knight game for a while.

Like I mentioned, Undertale got super lucky. I think Toby Fox also had enough of a name beforehand to garner some strong pre-release hype. With SuperGiant, they have the advantage of being fairly big for an indie team, at 25 employees - Not that big in the grand scheme of things, but most indie teams would be lucky to have that sorta manpower. That lets them announce a sequel fairly shortly after Hades finished its update cycle and keep their momentum going. Cuphead was released to rave reviews, but there's only like five guys working on it, so it took five years just to get their DLC out (Though they also got a show around that time, which is still pretty big). Shantae's interesting in that she does get semi-regular releases, but like you said, she just hasn't hit the mainstream in the same way, despite her seniority.

At least, that's my thoughts on the matter. Admittedly I haven't played super duper close attention to indie development, so this might just be useless yammering that's way of the mark, but that's how it seems to me

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I just think there's so many factors to consider for characters that I can't say outright indie fighters are a guarantee. Smash history is infamous for figures feeling natural or inevitabilities for the next only for the reality to be something quite different. Them getting that promotion or not getting it would feel entirely logical.

 

[Louie G.]

I just think there's so many factors to consider for characters that I can't say outright indie fighters are a guarantee.

No third party fighter ought to be treated as a guarantee anyway. I'm just ready to start treating worldwide phenomenon like Undertale and critical darlings like Hades as viable candidates equivalent to any other notable third party IP. "Indie" in and of itself is a label that shouldn't mean anything in this context, the simple idea that one person or a small group of people made a game shouldn't disqualify it from equal judgement if it checks off just about every other box.

It's new territory, but it's something we've been eeking ever closer toward. I wouldn't exactly be shocked if say, the Undertale content amounted to more music, an Assist Trophy, but I think we all linger a little too hard on the indie sticking point when realistically I don't think that would be much of a factor one way or another. The only clincher being that working intimately with Toby Fox is probably easier than working with a large scale corporation.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

No third party fighter ought to be treated as a guarantee anyway.

Tell that to certain fanbases throughout the DLC period.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It's an interesting debate; does the unofficial elevation of indie IP beyond that label make it more likely to have a fighter in SSB because of such prominence, or is there potentially greater Smash adjacent possibility to being the proverbial king of indies rather than another (albeit well regarded) third party property like a Monster Hunter or a Tales of?

 

[TheLamerGamer]

Tell that to certain fanbases throughout the DLC period.

Flashbacks to the guy who thought the entirety of FP2 was made so they could include the Nahobino... for... some reason???

I'm an SMT fan and almost certainly overestimate his chances, but come on, there was no world that was happening (frankly looking back I'm surprised I thought he was at all likely seeing as the game... didn't release until after the dlc finished. (In fairness at that stage I wanted the Demi-Fiend anyway)).

 

[Wonder Smash]

I just want to know. Nintendo takes down fangames but what are the chances that they take down a Smash Bros RPG fangame?

I really hope F-Zero gets a sequel, especially after F-Zero 99.

You know what I think would be pretty cool for the F-Zero series? Spin-offs. For example, there could be an open-world beat 'em up/racing hybrid where you play as Captain Falcon, capturing bounties and racing, and a third-person shooter/racing hybrid where you play as Pico.

I noticed earlier you mentioned it'd be cool if a Star Fox game was made by SEGA AM2 and while I'm not sure about that, but I do think it would be cool if an F-Zero game was made by them.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Flashbacks to the guy who thought the entirety of FP2 was made so they could include the Nahobino... for... some reason???

I'm an SMT fan and almost certainly overestimate his chances, but come on, there was no world that was happening (frankly looking back I'm surprised I thought he was at all likely seeing as the game... didn't release until after the dlc finished. (In fairness at that stage I wanted the Demi-Fiend anyway)).

It was telling of their mindset that they believed Nahobino's lack of inclusion would doom SMT V's market sales... only for the game to go on to great sales and be one of the best-selling SMT games ever (even before the PC release).

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Flashbacks to the guy who thought the entirety of FP2 was made so they could include the Nahobino... for... some reason???

I'm an SMT fan and almost certainly overestimate his chances, but come on, there was no world that was happening (frankly looking back I'm surprised I thought he was at all likely seeing as the game... didn't release until after the dlc finished. (In fairness at that stage I wanted the Demi-Fiend anyway)).

Ah yes, Megatenhistory from Gamefaqs.
I forget what he went by here after he got banned there.


Though that's just one guy being too obsessed. I mean something a bit bigger.
Like a certain puppet, a certain marsupial, a certain ninja, etc.

The ones where they were always next in line to be revealed until they weren't.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I was hoping for this to pop up, thank you.

I'm surprised my thunder didn't get stolen on that joke. This thread moves fast these days lmao

 

[Louie G.]

It's an interesting debate; does the unofficial elevation of indie IP beyond that label make it more likely to have a fighter in SSB because of such prominence, or is there potentially greater Smash adjacent possibility to being the proverbial king of indies rather than another (albeit well regarded) third party property like a Monster Hunter or a Tales of?

I think the former. Like, I think Shovel Knight for example has this reputation of being a keystone indie title. But it's not the biggest indie title, as we've talked about. Something like Undertale is still an indie game, and is regarded as such, but I don't think people deem it to be the figurehead of all indie games and I don't think that's a title that suits it either. It has its own distinct identity, is massively popular and would make it in on that front. And I think that individual momentum probably means more to everyone involved than an arbitrary role within a pretty abstract, vague label.

My answer then would be that being the "king of indies" doesn't mean very much. I think there is plenty to celebrate if we got games in such as Minecraft, Undertale, Hades, which one way or another came from humble beginnings and work to celebrate the success of these small teams and visionary creators in Smash. All of that is great on its own. I don't think Sakurai or Nintendo have much interest in finding the indie game to represent all indie games... because it's such a far reaching label at this point that there's no satisfying answer to that question. It seems more in the spirit of Smash itself to simply judge each one independently, and it seems more in the spirit of the Smash community to over-emphasize abstract categories.

To clarify - I don't consider Minecraft to be "an indie game" after being bought out by Microsoft, but certainly that legacy is there and worthy of celebration in its own right. That was my point in mentioning it.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Flashbacks to the guy who thought the entirety of FP2 was made so they could include the Nahobino... for... some reason???

I'm an SMT fan and almost certainly overestimate his chances, but come on, there was no world that was happening (frankly looking back I'm surprised I thought he was at all likely seeing as the game... didn't release until after the dlc finished. (In fairness at that stage I wanted the Demi-Fiend anyway)).

Oh yeah, I remember that guy. He was on GameFAQs with his mess before he came here. What's so funny was that he thought he actually had proof. lol

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Though that's just one guy being too obsessed. I mean something a bit bigger.
Like a certain puppet, a certain marsupial, a certain ninja, etc.

I was about to bring up how Hayabusa was on like literally every leak for what felt like the entirety of FP2 lol