Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

every character that has a character that's a literal copy of themself needs an Echo fighter

Like, who would be an echo of someone like Wario

Booster.

 

[Louie G.]

Do you think Raymans got a good chance? I can't remember if it's just rumors but he's getting a new game and I think a remake with Michael Ancel involved

Well, it’s a little too early to say what the impact or success of this theoretical revival will be so I wouldn’t factor that into the equation very much. I think Rayman’s visibility has otherwise been surprisingly good lately, even though his series has been dormant they’ve managed to give him a few cool things to do that kept him in the greater public consciousness. Most notably is his appearance in a kinda sorta Mario game, which is fairly significant, but his role in that recent cartoon helped keep him in people’s thoughts and trending on Twitter for at least a week as well.

As Opossum said the excitement for Rayman in Japan is pretty much nonexistent, even moreso than most other western picks that at least have a little clout out there - especially Undertale, Crash is a known figure, even Master Chief has at least some brand recognition. This is his greatest obstacle, although I think Ubisoft has made it clear that out of any candidate he’s the one they’re gunning for the hardest. If the conversation ever arises with them to take things to the next level, I still believe he has the best chance despite the circumstances. Although Assassin’s Creed is worth acknowledging for its greater worldwide appeal, but then we’re just doing a Banjo vs Steve again. Both could be cool and I’m unsure how likely a Ubisoft “rep” is anyway.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I feel Rayman has a decent chance at being a Trophy/Spirit/whatever again on account of Sparks of Hope, but that's about it.

 

[cashregister9]

They announced which consoles the Yooka-laylee remaster is coming too

On all marketing they never refer to the Switch just the "Nintendo" or the Nintendo

So yeah this is probably the first confirmed Switch 2 game. Unless they are really throwing us a curveball, and it's coming to the Wii U

 

[Kirbeh]

So, what do you think of the state of the Star Fox franchise?

Both in the context of Smash and outside of it?

Within Smash, I think Fox at least will always be around. Falco seems almost guaranteed as well imo. Wolf could go either way but I honestly feel he stays too barring a scaled back roster situation with lots of cuts.

As a franchise? Still disappointed with the state it's in. Zero wasn't received very well but I'd like to see a more polished, enhanced port with alternative controls released early in the next console's life just to get a better version of the game into more people's hands. After that they could finally move on with the story.

Preferably, I'd like to see Zero be followed up with a remake of Star Fox 2 to finally have a canon version of that game and it's characters. With a larger cast to play with, this is also where I l'd like to see a proper return of the MP. Use Assault as a base and expand it from there.

After that I have a bit more of a weird idea. I'd like for the "Star Fox 3" of this reboot to be a combination of Adventures and Assault where you switch perspectives between Fox and Krystal. It'd be part retelling part rewrite of the events of those games.

Krystal would get most of the ground missions, serving as the main character for the events on Sauria and would join the team once things wrap up there like in the old timeline. Then you'd be going into the Assault half of the game not just with Krystal but also Miyu and Faye from 2 who'd have been introduced in the last game.

Then Assault plays out but with some changes to accommodate for the additional characters and maybe a few twists different from the original like Pigma surviving to reappear in a future game or something.

After what's hopefully considered a solid remake trilogy they could then finally move on to an all original story for a proper new Star Fox.

Command can be left behind in the old canon though, I don't think too many would complain about that.

 

[DarthEnderX]

So, what do you think of the state of the Star Fox franchise?

Both in the context of Smash and outside of it?

Smash: Fine
Ouside: Bad.

Absolutely dislike what they ended up doing to the series in the long run, where its just starfox 64 again and again.

Really wish they'd do something with it that's not just "let's remake 64 again under a different name" like the Gamecube titles did.

Is that a joke? The whole problem with StarFox is they WON'T just make a new StarFox 64. They keep screwing with the formula and making sequels in genres no StarFox fan actually wanted, instead of just making more games like the one people actually LIKE.

Seriously, what franchise have you guys been playing?

I think Star Fox need a game like Pikmin 4. I mean, some kind of a reboot BUT with a new story. Maybe introducing Krystal since the begining and using some of the Star Fox 2 characters for example.

Why not just take the story of Star Fox 2, and remake it the way StarFox 64 did with StarFox 1. Turn it into a normal-ass StarFox game that just plays well.

 

[HyperSomari64]

They announced which consoles the Yooka-laylee remaster is coming too

On all marketing they never refer to the Switch just the "Nintendo" or the Nintendo

So yeah this is probably the first confirmed Switch 2 game. Unless they are really throwing us a curveball, and it's coming to the Wii U

Man, i love the Nintendo console.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Don't know if this is a controversial opinion or not among the Star Fox fandom, but I would love an Assault-style multiplayer mode more than anything else.

Got far more mileage out of that than the campaign.

IIRC Star Fox Assault was a multiplayer game first with many of the single player maps just being hastily modified versions of the multiplayer maps, so that doesn't surprise me.

In general... It doesn't feel like anyone has a clue what to do with Star Fox beyond "make 64 again". I say having someone like Retro or Good Feel would do wonders for it

Funny enough, Star Fox Zero is the only Star Fox 64 remake, but since it's a remake of a remake that had recently gotten a port, it still feels super redundant.

With the last two games being a remake of Star Fox 64 that flopped hard, and a title that has a billion really outlandish endings that would be terrible to follow up on (and no true ending), I can see why Star Fox has skipped the Nintendo Switch. The fact that it's always experimenting with gimmicks that take over whichever game they're in doesn't help either.

I think their best bet is to make do what they did with MCU Spider Man and make a standalone story that's a great introduction to the series, but isn't an origin story because while a lot of people might not have seen it, just as many people probably have. As far as gameplay goes, I'd keep Star Fox 64's mission structure, and make sure to make good use of the ideas it provides. If they feel they want or need to include a different gimmick, the on foot sections would probably be the only one I'd reuse. Otherwise just let it be a rail shooter.

 

[Wonder Smash]

So, what do you think of the state of the Star Fox franchise?

Both in the context of Smash and outside of it?

I think Nintendo is capable of making another good one. It's just that I'm not expecting them to actually do it.

 

[ninjahmos]

every character that has a character that's a literal copy of themself needs an Echo fighter

Or maybe some of them are better off as alts of that character.

Shocking, I know.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Or maybe some of them are better off as alts of that character.

No character that's a separate entity is ever "better off" as an alt costume.

 

[Dukefire]

Which Indie Characters may have a good chance to become a fighter for the next one? They did make it to Mii Costume, Spirits, and/or Assist Trophy in Ultimate. That is an accomplished feat despite being small compared to Triple AAA games.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Which Indie Characters may have a good chance to become a fighter for the next one? They did make it to Mii Costume, Spirits, and/or Assist Trophy in Ultimate. That is an accomplished feat despite being small compared to Triple AAA games.

-clear throat-

 

[ninjahmos]

No character that's a separate entity is ever "better off" as an alt costume.

Except Dark Link and Blood Falcon.

 

[cashregister9]

Which Indie Characters may have a good chance to become a fighter for the next one? They did make it to Mii Costume, Spirits, and/or Assist Trophy in Ultimate. That is an accomplished feat despite being small compared to Triple AAA games.

All of these 5 have the best chance IMO and at least one will make it, probably, hopefully

1. Literally anyone from Undertale
2. Shantae
3. Zagreus
4. Shovel Knight
5. Cuphead

EDIT: Cadence (Crypt Of The Necrodancer) was number 5

I could also see something from Among Us or Touhou also easily making it in

 

[Shinuto]

They announced which consoles the Yooka-laylee remaster is coming too

On all marketing they never refer to the Switch just the "Nintendo" or the Nintendo

So yeah this is probably the first confirmed Switch 2 game. Unless they are really throwing us a curveball, and it's coming to the Wii U

What the hell...

 

[Gengar84]

No character that's a separate entity is ever "better off" as an alt costume.

True, but I think it’s the most fitting for a few characters like Lance Bean. Bill and Lance play identically so there’s not really much a need to make Lance a separate character. I think an Alph style alt is perfectly fine.

 

[Shinuto]

All of these 5 have the best chance IMO and at least one will make it, probably, hopefully

1. Literally anyone from Undertale
2. Shantae
3. Zagreus
4. Shovel Knight
5. Reimu

I could also see something from Among Us or Crypt Of The Necrodancer also easily making it in

All of these 5 have the best chance IMO and at least one will make it, probably, hopefully

1. Literally anyone from Undertale
2. Shantae
3. Zagreus
4. Shovel Knight
5. Cadence (Crypt Of The Necrodancer)

I could also see something from Among Us or Touhou also easily making it in

Lol no love for Cuphead

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Or maybe some of them are better off as alts of that character.

Shocking, I know.

Zack and Roxas would totally be perfect echo fighters if legal problems werent in the way of that happening.

Is that a joke? The whole problem with StarFox is they WON'T just make a new StarFox 64. They keep screwing with the formula and making sequels in genres no StarFox fan actually wanted, instead of just making more games like the one people actually LIKE.

Seriously, what franchise have you guys been playing?

I want a sequel to Starforx assault and not another version of 64.

 

[cashregister9]

Lol no love for Cuphead

Oh **** I knew I forgot someone, they are now number 5

 

[ninjahmos]

Zack and Roxas would totally be perfect echo fighters if legal problems werent in the way of that happening.

Well, if both Disney and Square Enix are on board for getting Cloud AND Sora into the next game, it could happen.

But yeah, legal issues are a thing.

 

[SharkLord]

Which Indie Characters may have a good chance to become a fighter for the next one? They did make it to Mii Costume, Spirits, and/or Assist Trophy in Ultimate. That is an accomplished feat despite being small compared to Triple AAA games.

Think this has been discussed before, but:

1. Undertale is... Undertale. You saw the reactions to Sans, don't need to cover that
2. Shovel Knight is no longer the omnipresent master of indie cameos, but he's still been running a consistently updated series for a decade and counting, on top of getting amiibos and an Assist Trophy
3. Shantae doesn't seem to have a single definitive title that defines indies like the above two, but her series has some impressive seniority and consistency, on top of some pretty strong fan support. I wouldn't count her out entirely
4. Touhou is... Weird. Absolutely massive in Japan, a defining fixture of the doujin scene, an outrageous output of fanworks, has such a dedicated Western fanbase that they don't even bother with official translations most of the time, and older than even Smash itself. on the other hand, it's only recently started developing a presence on Nintendo systems, most of it's popularity comes from fanworks, and again, it's only just recently started getting official localizations. I'd say Reimu has a shot, but with a lot of asterisks attached
5. Hades is a recent smash success, is now getting a sequel, and apparently Nintendo had so much faith in it that they directly published the Switch port (Which also explains that one random Zagreus Spirit). That's a pretty solid resume
6. Crypt of the NecroDancer isn't quite as big as the other five listed, but it's getting a third game soon, and apparently Nintendo liked it so much they just let them make a Zelda game, which is pretty damn impressive

 

[Dukefire]

1. Undertale has a various amount of characters. Sans or Chara/Kris are the most known to request. Either using Sans's soul power being a ranged glass cannon or Chara/Kris choices to use different tactics as an all-around fighter.
2. Shantae as WayForward's mascot. The Half Genie that always manage to return to the spotlight despite year gaps before a new game. An all-rounder midweight with transformations to find another way forward to spice up the odds.
3. TBH, I have not played Hades, but the roguelike gameplay with trial and error runs intrigues me.
4. Shovel Knight for Yacht Club Game's mascot. This shovel warrior did appear as an Assist Trophy that started the mold breaker for Indie Characters having a possible shot during the 2nd Smash Ultimate direct. All-rounder mid to heavyweight with his shovel as a natural reflector and maybe change moveset based on collected treasure perhaps?
5. Cadence from a rhythm based gameplay is interesting with the various weapons and mechanics to follow a pace for effectivness. All-rounder with tools for any situation.
6. Touhou is a popular IP that many fans has built itself from the core idea. A ranged character with various options to fight up close and close the gap from other range fighters. Might utilize mechanics like Graze.
7. Among Us is a deception game that the imposter is an alien trying to blend in while killing. Innersloth a team of 3 people can give the crewmate/imposter a moveset to represent the game. Also, Fraymakers could be a base to draw moveset.
8. Cuphead can represent the 40s rubberhose cartoon characters rip into the modern 3D style. Fighting style is range, but a glass cannon as the core series has the character ONLY having 3 HP. So, tricky powerful range, but disadvantage if rushdown or fail to compensate skill check.

 

[Louie G.]

I feel Rayman has a decent chance at being a Trophy/Spirit/whatever again on account of Sparks of Hope, but that's about it.

I think there's at least a solid chance he gets an Assist Trophy bump and sits at a similar position to Shovel Knight. The two have a few things in common too, SK isn't too big overseas either but both were published by Nintendo out there like Rayman Legends was. Certainly if Shovel Knight or Shantae have visible enough support to receive more supplemental content then I think Rayman is game to be recognized in a similar light.

Which Indie Characters may have a good chance to become a fighter for the next one?

As it stands now, I think Undertale and Hades have a solid chance of getting a character and that's about it.

 

[ninjahmos]

Is that a joke? The whole problem with StarFox is they WON'T just make a new StarFox 64. They keep screwing with the formula and making sequels in genres no StarFox fan actually wanted, instead of just making more games like the one people actually LIKE.

Seriously, what franchise have you guys been playing?

Must you always be such a gatekeeper?

We don't need Star Fox 64 again. We need something new. Or at least something slightly different.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

They announced which consoles the Yooka-laylee remaster is coming too

On all marketing they never refer to the Switch just the "Nintendo" or the Nintendo

So yeah this is probably the first confirmed Switch 2 game. Unless they are really throwing us a curveball, and it's coming to the Wii U

Ah.

So the name of the new console is the Nintendo _____________.

 

[Gengar84]

Must you always be such a gatekeeper?

We don't need Star Fox 64 again. We need something new. Or at least something slightly different.

What I want is a game that plays very similar to StarFox 64 mechanically but with a lot more content and a story that isn’t just rehashing the same thing again. I think the gameplay of StarFox 64 was great so I wouldn’t want to see that deviate too much but I’d like to see the game evolve in other areas. The whole screen gimmick in StarFox Zero was just annoying to play with for me. No need to reinvent the wheel, just make something basic and fun to play. Same goes for a hypothetical F-Zero sequel.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Ah.

So the name of the new console is the Nintendo _____________.

Finally, all those parents who called game consoles "Nintendos" are vindicated.

 

[cashregister9]

Ah.

So the name of the new console is the Nintendo _____________.

It's actually the Nintendo

It just stares at you for a bit

 

[Oracle Link]

every character that has a character that's a literal copy of themself needs an Echo fighter

So we Finnaly get justice for the original Dark Copy!
Meaning we get 3 more zelda characters:
Dark Link, Dark Toon Link and Dark Young Link!

But in all seriousness there has to be something sakurai could do to improve the dark link skins without having this flood of linkage Perhaps a voice Filter and a black sword? Maybe aBackflip taunt?

I dunno just seems weird that the compartivly newer Dark Samus and pit get to be echoes but the dark links are just palettes!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

4. Shovel Knight for Yacht Club Game's mascot. This shovel warrior did appear as an Assist Trophy that started the mold breaker for Indie Characters having a possible shot during the 2nd Smash Ultimate direct. All-rounder mid to heavyweight with his shovel as a natural reflector and maybe change moveset based on collected treasure perhaps?

I think Shovel Knight would be a much more normal character in Super Smash Bros., not taking any inspiration from his gimmick in Rivals of Aether. If he has a gimmick, it would most likely be that his downward thrust attack (most likely a down aerial, but there could be a down special variant as well or instead) interacts with his special moves or something.

 

[Mamboo07]

So, what do you think of the state of the Star Fox franchise?

Both in the context of Smash and outside of it?

Inside Smash; doing okay

Outside of Smash; dead and dormant

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Star Fox 64 is a great game, but rehashing the story gets grating. Especially when it was already a remake of the SNES Star Fox game alone, which means we're already having the same story three times.

Hell, even Adventures is a more pleasing story because it tries to do its own thing to any degree. Command's was... eh. That said, the controls weren't great either. I haven't played Guard, though, so I don't know enough about it to comment.

Though something to keep in mind in the case of special Echo situations; the reason the Castlevania duo are the same is because Sakurai intentionally had them take notes from each other. They aren't inherently in their home series identical. This isn't the same with every character and can't be feasibly applied. Contra is great, but they is not an actual tangible difference between the two. The only reason an Echo situation would be worth the extra work is if they had normal animations that are remotely different enough that it could affect a hitbox or hurtbox(like Daisy has. Yes, it won't matter in battle, but as I said before, the data is actually different, which is why she can't be a costume alone. No costumes have any gameplay differences, no matter how minor. Which makes sense. That still affects the gameplay data. A costume isn't tellable from the regular character, something Sakurai has gone on record saying he doesn't have a way to split them properly for accurate data. That also said, he probably can now, but having an extra character who is still easy to make is just better in the long run anyway. It gives more characters and personality, so why not stick with it?).

On another note, I read recently how Sparks of Hope did fairly poorly compared to the first game. I can see some reasons why; locking Rayman behind DLC is not going to go well no matter what. The hype of the original is very hard to apply too. In addition, it generally had immediate price differences with DLC, which, to say the least, meant you have to pay a fair bit extra for the full experience. The original game had stuff, but that started to come out a lot later. And it wasn't full of 3rd party characters, but ones who weren't lacking in general appearances(like Donkey Kong). Which generally means that having them as DLC isn't as big of a deal. And with Rayman being used a lot less in some way, you can start to see where part of it comes from. The other is Ubisoft also having severely high expectations that it couldn't have met anyway. ...Which isn't surprising, as some companies aren't very smart about this kind of thing.

 

[Louie G.]

I can't help but feel that characters like Shovel Knight or Shantae are kinda remnants of a previous era of speculation rather than being in tune with what is fresh and current. When we talk about these characters I get Smash 4 flashbacks. It's not to say people can't or don't still support them, but I think Assist Trophy or costume is about the extent of what we'll see them reach. Their community support has already peaked and on a wider scale this is about how big these games and characters are anyway, and I realize they're both still getting new material but it's not setting the world on fire right now either.

Games like Hades and Undertale, despite the latter being hardly much newer than Shovel Knight is, feel more evergreen and true to Nintendo's demonstrated priorities and the current buzz. Shovel Knight was THE indie game back in 2014-2015 but nowadays feels more emblematic of this era than it does representative of what indie games currently are or have managed to grow into. Hades has been shockingly present within Nintendo's social media marketing and did get that spirit added later on, Undertale speaks for itself but Toby has his toes dug into just about everyone in the industry at this point. Deltarune also gets to show up in full fledged Directs that announce its simultaneous console release.

Shantae's main boon at this point is that you could say Wayforward is a somewhat significant partner of Nintendo's that may eventually call for further collaboration. I think that's ultimately what would put her over the edge if anything, but I have my doubts about how necessary that is. When a major company like Koei Tecmo is still waiting their turn I don't think Wayforward is necessarily going to be seen as the tip top priority, but Nintendo has been pretty close with them. Shovel Knight though, I dunno. I think he's kinda **** out of luck for Smash nowadays.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Is that a joke? The whole problem with StarFox is they WON'T just make a new StarFox 64. They keep screwing with the formula and making sequels in genres no StarFox fan actually wanted, instead of just making more games like the one people actually LIKE.

Seriously, what franchise have you guys been playing?

I think they were referring to a normal person's idea of a sequel rather than Nintendo's "we must find a way to innovate on the gameplay or we might as well drop the series" definition.

There is probably a bit of a divide in terms of what gameplay styles people want since they kept experimenting so much, but I think most would agree that the series at least needs to not have the next game be a 1-1 remake of Star Fox 64 (or in Star Fox Zero's case, a vastly inferior remake of it).

 

[Oracle Link]

Speaking of Star Fox whats your opinion of slippy getting in with a moveset based on his game?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Speaking of Star Fox whats your opinion of slippy getting in with a moveset based on his game?

He and Krystal are both really interesting characters with tons of potential.

...I also love Slippy's voice. Smash Remix did a great job with him. He's hilarious.

 

[Shinuto]

Well, if both Disney and Square Enix are on board for getting Cloud AND Sora into the next game, it could happen.

But yeah, legal issues are a thing.

Roxas plays nothing like Sora

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I can't help but feel that characters like Shovel Knight or Shantae are kinda remnants of a previous era of speculation rather than being in tune with what is fresh and current. When we talk about these characters I get Smash 4 flashbacks. It's not to say people can't or don't still support them, but I think Assist Trophy or costume is about the extent of what we'll see them reach. Their community support has already peaked and on a wider scale this is about how big these games and characters are anyway, and I realize they're both still getting new material but it's not setting the world on fire right now either.

Games like Hades and Undertale, despite the latter being hardly much newer than Shovel Knight is, feel more evergreen and true to Nintendo's demonstrated priorities and the current buzz. Shovel Knight was THE indie game back in 2014-2015 but nowadays feels more emblematic of this era than it does representative of what indie games currently are or have managed to grow into. Hades has been shockingly present within Nintendo's social media marketing and did get that spirit added later on, Undertale speaks for itself but Toby has his toes dug into just about everyone in the industry at this point. Deltarune also gets to show up in full fledged Directs that announce its simultaneous console release.

Shantae's main boon at this point is that you could say Wayforward is a somewhat significant partner of Nintendo's that may eventually call for further collaboration. I think that's ultimately what would put her over the edge if anything, but I have my doubts about how necessary that is. When a major company like Koei Tecmo is still waiting their turn I don't think Wayforward is necessarily going to be seen as the tip top priority, but Nintendo has been pretty close with them. Shovel Knight though, I dunno. I think he's kinda **** out of luck for Smash nowadays.

So what you're saying is.

It's Pizza Time.

 

[ninjahmos]

Come to think of it, a Star Fox game developed by SEGA AM2 would actually be pretty cool.

Roxas plays nothing like Sora

Which proves the point of an earlier post of mine:

Obligatory text