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It's an interesting debate; does the unofficial elevation of indie IP beyond that label make it more likely to have a fighter in SSB because of such prominence, or is there potentially greater Smash adjacent possibility to being the proverbial king of indies rather than another (albeit well regarded) third party property like a Monster Hunter or a Tales of?
I suppose it helps with visibility if a game made by a small team managed to make it big, but ultimately I think more emphasis will be placed on the success and popularity of the game itself. Hell, depending on how we slice it we already have the proverbial King of Indies
Yeah, Minecraft is now a Microsoft IP, and yes, it is no longer indie because of that. But it still started with just one guy working on it, and it went on to become the best selling video game in the world, enough that Microsoft thought it was actually worth buying out. That's probably the most success you could hope for from such a game. But ultimately, I think Steve was added less because he started with an indie game and more that he's Steve friggin' Minecraft from the best selling game of all time. So to reiterate, making it big as an indie game nets you some underdog points, but I don't think Nintendo or Sakurai have a super high priority "indie quota."
...Man now that I'm thinking about it in detail again we have Steve @#$%ing Minecraft in Super Smash Bros.
What the hell. I know it's been like four years but all of the sudden it's kicking in all at once. I kinda took it for granted by now but it's surreal to think about
In a way, Hayabusa was like the perfect hypothetical speculation character, especially for rumors/leaks. He's not so prominent that he can be said to be a blatant wish fulfillment figure like a Master Chief, but nor is he so obscure that he could be dismissed out of hand for not being famous enough. He has a Nintendo history while still having semi-contemporary games, while his company has worked with first party franchises. His likely fighting style isn't too out there but isn't too heavily repped in Smash already either. And to top it off he's the kind of fighter that could easily be negotiated for while still getting some fairly prominent headlines for appearing.
I still think Hayabusa is likely to appear at some point in the future, seeing how Koei Tecmo remains a staple collaborator of Nintendo's and he is hands down the most obvious choice to represent that company, not to mention his general legacy and feeling like a character Sakurai might have an affinity for, but his absence from Ultimate altogether has clued me in on the fact that... it might just not matter, lol. He was sitting right there for three years and he didn't even get a Mii Costume which still kind of baffles me.
He's a good reflection of how everything can line up and still mean absolutely nothing. So I'm not quite sure how to feel about him going into next game, whereas he was a fixture of my fighter pass predictions up to that interview that virtually shut the party down and said it wasn't happening this time.
The third parties who I think are in the strongest position next game are supplemental choices like another Sonic character or Chun-Li... and even those may not happen simply because there could be other priorities within their companies. Everyone else is a big question mark.
Literally all because of one fake leak that people took too seriously because it had Joker (after he was revealed iirc) and Erdrick.
Ever since then, no one would shut up about how likely the duo of Ryu Hayabusa and Doom Slayer were though the latter would die down considerably after that one comment was made about talks going nowhere.
And ironically Doom Slayer ended up getting something while Hayabusa didn't.
I always thought it'd be fun if Slippy's kit was a bastardization of the typical spacie moveset. Like he performs all the moves wrong or weirdly.
His up special engulfs him in an explosion that rockets him upward, his side special only travels a short distance but it lets him slide along the ground very quickly if he performs it while grounded, his lasers can be rapidly fired but his gun overheats if you do it too much, etc. The down special could probably be something original, it's hard to imagine screwing up a reflector and I'd like him to have something unique to his name.
True, but I think it’s the most fitting for a few characters like Lance Bean. Bill and Lance play identically so there’s not really much a need to make Lance a separate character. I think an Alph style alt is perfectly fine.
EVERY SF game after 64 tried something "new"! Adventure, Assault, Command...StarFox does nothing BUT try something new, and the result is always disappointing!
They one thing they HAVEN'T tried, is making a real sequel to the one game in the franchise that's ACTUALLY popular.
What I want is a game that plays very similar to StarFox 64 mechanically but with a lot more content and a story that isn’t just rehashing the same thing again.
I know most people dont play 358 days because the game was turned into a movie in the HD collections but in the game he was the main star in he fights like Sora for the majority of its run time only getting his two sword style later on.
Also the fact that he is a literal clone of Sora in the lore and you have the perfect echo fighter.
Maybe you can squeeze in Xion as an alt skin for Roxas if your daring enough since she is also a clone with the same fighting style.
EVERY SF game after 64 tried something "new"! Adventure, Assault, Command...StarFox does nothing BUT try something new, and the result is always disappointing!
They one thing they HAVEN'T tried, is making a real sequel to the one game in the franchise that's ACTUALLY popular.
I don't think a character can stay widespread leak fodder just because they were on a prolific fake leak; you need some substance as to why you'd be a plausible feature on so many fake leaks.
Like, remember the leak/theory with Artorias? It gained traction, but after it was disproven it's not like Artorias became some fixture on future claims. Because, frankly, he wouldn't make sense above Chosen Undead, or even Solaire.
Ryu Hayabusa was a common inclusion on lists because he had a good case for inclusion, so putting him on a fake leak wouldn't be cause for as much skepticism as a longer shot.
Were I to create a fake list, I would be pretty stringent with off-the-wall choices or characters who have very little chance if not for fan demand. You need a few, but more would be like Ryu Hayabusa, who is just a sensible inclusion.
Ryu Hayabusa was a common inclusion on lists because he had a good case for inclusion, so putting him on a fake leak wouldn't be cause for as much skepticism as a longer shot.
But did he really?
If he had such a "good case"....
WHERE'S THE NINJA, MANSLEY?!
Hayabusa is one of those cases where people saw a fake leak with him on it and clung onto the idea for dear life even after said leak was without a doubt false merely because they wanted it to be real.
Had nothing to do with any "good case".
EDIT: It appears the term I used doesn't actually mean what I believed it meant, so I changed it out to be what I mean.
IMO, the main thing that made Ryu Hayabusa stick out to people is that Ninja Gaiden is the most iconic NES platforming game NOT to have a playable spot in the roster.
I don't think it's wrong, but I also don't think it's a strong enough excuse to think he's a guarantee for the "NEStalgia slot".
A little off topic so apologies for that but I've been thinking about this since the other day:
So, I've never been an Urban Champion supporter but the conversation a few pages back, started by smashkirby
got me thinking, and before I realized, I was actually trying to work out a move set that I think would fit the guy.
So, here's that move set I guess, for anyone that feels like giving it a read.
Also, a rough doodle to accompany said move set. (Very rough and doesn't cover everything as I didn't have time when I started and when I came back to it today, I got lazy. )
I wanted a to go for a retro, but not entirely retro look if that makes sense? Rather than referencing his own game art, I used his sprite and Balloon Fighter. I was thinking that he could maybe be an older teenager or young adult. I was also trying to aim for a look that could pass him off as the Ballon Fighter's son or nephew or something. Odd direction I know, but it just felt like it worked to me idk. View attachment 395516 Forgive the cluttered labels, I should have spaced them and the doodles better. I wanted Champ (I will be referring to him as such from here on,) to have pretty basic moves. I feel like he ought to be simple and straight forward, so he doesn't have any moves that are too crazy or flashy for the most part.
He is just a guy that gets into street fights (albeit limited to punching) with little else to Urban Champion as a game, so I think keeping things simple works for him. I mostly aimed for what could be considered a sort of middle ground between and
Input
Move Name
Description
Neutral Attack
Jab & Straight
A short jab followed by a straight punch. Based on his sprite.
Forward Tilt
Body Blow
A quick but strong body blow. Poor range but can be combo-ed into from Neutral Attack.
Up Tilt
Backhand Sweep
An overhead, backhand swing. Think Shaggy Up Tilt if you've played Multiversus.
Down Tilt
Crouch Jab & Straight
The same as his Neutral Attack but done while crouched. Useful for hitting small characters and can still be linked into other attacks like F-Tilt.
Dash Attack
Running Swing
This one is pretty much the exact same thing as Little Mac and Mii Gunner's.
Forward Smash
Hook Punch
A heavy hook punch that has Champ step forward a bit. Partly inspired by Luke's Stand HP in Street Fighter 6.
Up Smash
Uppercut
A strong uppercut that springs up from a crouching position. A classic/standard fighting game move.
Down Smash
Down Swing
Somewhat similar to his Dash Attack. Champ rears back before delivering a punch straight down, knocking opponents into the ground. Or spiking them at the ledge.
OR sending them down a manhole on the Urban Champion stage that would accompany his inclusion.
Neutral Air
Double Knee Splash
An airborne double-knee attack. It's functionally a body splash but with a focus on the knees for the posing.
Alternatively, I could see him pulling off a classic s*x kick N-Air.
Forward Air
Air Hook
A semi-underhand, hook punch with his right. Think of Doc F-Air but with his fist's arc coming from below instead of an overhead strike.
Back Air
Turn Back Punch
Champ twists around while swing his arm. Similar to Mac's Back Air.
Up Air
Swiping Upper
A sweeping uppercut performed overhead.
My doodle kind of looks like a DP but that wasn't the intent. If you've played Multiversus, think more along the lines of Shaggy's Up Air.
Down Air
Hammer Fist
Champ brings both fists together for a hammering strike. Similar to Diddy or Mii Brawler's D-Air attacks.
Grab
He grabs you. Nothing special here.
Pummel
Headbutt
Headbutts you like Mario's own pummel.
Forward Throw
Straight Slugger
Holds opponents by the collar before slugging them in the face to launch them away.
Back Throw
Shoulder Throw
Closely resembles Terry's Buster Throw.
Up Throw
Lift Upper
Holds opponents by the collar before launching them with a quick uppercut.
Down Throw
Pin Pummel
Champ pins the opponent to the ground before delivering a barrage of quick punches, the last hit launching them slightly. This one's for damage, not for KO's. Partly inspired by attacks used by both Sean and Luke in the Street Fighter series.
A strong wind-up punch that sends foes into a tumbling state on hit. (Think of the sort of cartoon wind-up punch you'd see from a character like Popeye.)
When used on the ground, this will send foes tumbling backward along the ground rather than launching them outright.
This move is at its strongest when used on stages with walk-offs as it will send opponents tumbling right into the blast zone if used close enough. (Mimicking how you beat opponents in Urban Champion.)
On more standard stages like FD, BF, etc. opponents will roll off the side of the stage ledge, exiting the tumble state but setting them up for potential edge guard opportunities.
If the opponent hits a wall, a wall splat will occur, briefly leaving them vulnerable for a possible follow up.
While in the tumble state, opponents will crash into other opponents, dealing damage to them. They will also break any destructible terrain they collide with (like the blocks on Green Greens, etc.)
The amount of time opponents spend in the tumbling state will increase the higher their damage is; however, the speed of the tumble is much faster than that of the original Urban Champion (instead using Smash's existing tumble parameters as a base).
The speed varies based on percent, being comparable to that of being launched (though again with only one set direction.)
The change in speed is to minimize the time opponents spend in state of helplessness, quickly returning control to the player.
A short distance burst option with light armor properties, allowing Urban Champ to power through weaker hits and most projectiles.
The armor's damage threshold is 15%, meaning it will beat out most tilts and aerials but loses out to charged smash attacks and strong hits from naturally heavy hitters like Ganondorf, Dedede and K. Rool. (ex. Dash attack + some aerials for those mentioned.)
(Here's the one move in his kit that makes things a bit more weird/unpredictable: a non-traditional projectile from above.)
A time lapse special that spawns an item in the air.
Upon use, a marker appears high in the air directly above Urban Champ. After a short period (probably 5 or so seconds,) an item will spawn in the air where the marker was placed. The item then falls straight down, dealing damage to anyone standing below it (including Urban Champ himself.)
The item that spawns is random, with each item dealing different amounts of damage, knockback, and potentially having other properties.
The most common item spawned, is a flowerpot like the ones dropped in Urban Champion. The possible items are as follows:
Most Common
Flowerpot (Urban Champion): 12% damage
Common
Decorative Pot/Jar (Zelda series): 12% damage
The appearance of the pot can vary too, with a handful of designs pulled from different Zelda games.
Upon breaking, instead of having been empty, there's a chance that the player hit will collect a Heart or some Rupees. The Rupees don't do anything and are just there as another fun reference, but the Heart will heal you for 5% of the damage you just took.
Jar (Kid Icarus): 12% damage
These were all over the Underworld in the original Kid Icarus.
Sunflower Vase (Starfy): 12% damage
Vase of Roses (Starfy): 12% damage
Tea Kettle (Starfy): 12% damage
Has the added benefit of not immediately breaking allowing players to use it as a throwing item.
Coffee Mug (Chibi-Robo!): 8% damage
Has a picture of Drake Redcrest on it.
Tin Can (Hogan's Alley): 5%
Not very strong but it can be thrown too. No explosion like Duck Hunt's though.
Uncommon
Painting (Framed): 14% damage
Framed paintings all come in the same size, but they can depict artwork referencing a variety of games including Super Mario 64, Luigi's Mansion, The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds and more.
Painting (Canvas): 14% damage
The possible canvases all come in one size, but they can depict artwork referencing a variety of games including Art Academy, the Kirby series and more.
Potted Piranha Plant (Mario series): 12% damage. Rather than breaking. a small Piranha Plant will pop outand bite at players. It can be easily defeated or will disappear on its own after a bit.
(Not to be confused with our playable plant )
Goomba's Shoe (Mario series): 12% damage. May or may not contain a Goomba.
Horned Statuette (The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess): 25% damage
Shouldn't this be back at the Temple of Time?
Rocky (Kirby series): 25% damage.
Drops like a rock.
Kirby can suck him up if he's in the match, but he won't get any additional Stone abilities. Otherwise, he'll walk around for a little bit before disappearing.
Telephone (Earthbound): 15% damage
You rang? Oh, it's for Ness.
Jar (Kid Icarus): 12% damage
Same kind as before, but this one had a Shemum hiding inside!
Bowling Ball (Animal Crossing series, because taken off Villager. Could double as a Wii Sports item too technically.): 17% damage (just like a clean hit from Villager's F-Smash.)
Behaves as though it were dropped so it cannot be caught or picked up, instead burying opponents immediately or laying a pitfall upon contact with the ground.
Telly Vision (Chibi-Robo!): 20% damage
Telly will drop onto the stage dazed. After shaking it off, he'll take flight and fly off screen.
Rare
Bob-omb (Mario series): 30.6% damage.
Behaves as though it were spawned like in Sudden Death, though it can be caught with proper timing.
Thwomp(Mario series): 30% damage
Artsy Ghost (Mother 3): 14% damage
Looks like a regular painting at first glance, but it'll levitate and fly towards players after landing so watch out! (Can be dispatched with a few hits.)
Yellow Wollywog (Pikmin series): 30% damage
It'll target the closest player and try jumping again after landing so try to take it out quickly!
Block Stack (Stack Up): 30% damage. Attack the stack to knock it over and add several throwable blocks into the mix.
You should let R.O.B. handle these.
TV + NES/Famicom: A CRT television with an NES (or Famicom) sitting on top.
Deals a whopping 35% in damage. (CRTs are heavy.)
The screen also has a chance of displaying one of the following games, each with a 2.5% chance of appearing.
Urban Champion
Donkey Kong
Donkey Kong Jr.
Mario Bros.
Super Mario Bros.
Super Mario Bros. 2 (Lost Levels)
Super Mario Bros. 2 (USA)
Super Mario Bros. 3
Dr. Mario
The Legend of Zelda
Zelda II
Metroid
Kirby's Adventure
Mother (Uses a Famicom)
Fire Emblem (Uses a Famicom)
Kid Icarus
Wario's Woods
Punch-Out!!
Duck Hunt
Ice Climber
Balloon Fight
Excitebike
Gyromite
Stack Up
Hogan's Alley
Wild Gunman
Mach Rider
Devil World
Clu Clu Land
Pro Wrestling
Wrecking Crew
NES Open Tournament Golf
The Mysterious Murasame Castle (Famicom)
FDC: The Missing Heir (Famicom)
FDC: The Girl Who Stands Behind (Famicom)
Shin Onigashima (Famicom)
Yuyuki (Famicom)
Gumshoe
Startropics
Startropics II
Super Rare
Elephant Mario (+ the others too maybe?): 35% damage.
After landing the Armos will remain dormant and disappear if you leave it alone. Get too close and it'll spring to life, hopping around to chase after players. As you might expect, Armos, is in fact, armored so be careful when engaging with it.
Beamos (Zelda series): 30% damage
After landing Beamos will fire a laser at the closest player. It'll disappear on its own after a little while, but you can take it out in a single strike if you aim for the eye.
Metroid Capsule (Super Metroid): 30% damage
A baby Metroid captured in a capsule, similar to the one Ridley carries off in the opening of Super Metroid.
Upon landing, the capsule will remain on stage for a short while before disappearing. Sometimes the glass will crack only to disappear anyway, however, there is also a chance that the glass fully breaks, freeing the baby Metroid who will feed on any players it can manage to latch onto.
Moundo (Kirby series): 35% damage
Just like Rocky.
TV + SNES: 35% damage.
A CRT television with a Super Nintendo sitting on top.
The screen also has a chance of displaying one of the following games, each with a 5% chance.
Super Mario World
Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island
Super Mario Kart
Mario Paint
DKC
DKC 2
DKC 3
A Link to the Past
Super Metroid
Kirby Superstar
Star Fox
F-Zero
Mother 2/Earthbound
FE: Mystery of the Emblem
FE: Genealogy of the Holy War
FE: Thracia 776
Super Punch-Out!!
Pilotwings
Stunt Race FX
Battle Clash
Ultra Rare
Mad Piano (Super Mario 64): Deals 40% damage on impact and will angrily hop upon landing, dealing another 8-20% if all hits connect, disappearing after it's done.
Doorframe – In addition to the damage dealt upon landing, the doorknob will rattle, and the door will swing open shorty after (damaging those in the way and) revealing a character cameo. Some examples:
Luigi nervously looking around with his flashlight, referencing Luigi's Mansion.
Villager walking through the door and walking around for a bit placing a furniture item or two in the background before walking back through the door, closing it behind him
DK swings the door open and takes a peek will still holding the doorknob. He then slams it shut again.
A regular Mii walks through the door and wanders around the stage background briefly before waving goodbye and disappearing.
Isabelle will appear with a surprised expression. She'll then walk in and wander the stage background for a brief period, leaving fruit as a callback to her old Assist Trophy role.
TV + N64: A CRT television with a Nintendo 64 sitting on top. Has a 5% chance of appearing. The screen also has a chance of displaying one of the following games, each with a 5% chance.
Super Smash Bros.
Super Mario 64
Mario Kart 64
Dr. Mario 64
Paper Mario
Donkey Kong 64
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask
Yoshi's Story
Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards
Star Fox 64
Pokemon Stadium
Pokemon Snap
F-Zero X
Doubutsu no Mori (Animal Forest)
Pilotwings 64
Wave Race 64
1080 Snowboarding
Excitebike 64
Sin & Punishment
TV + GCN: 30% damage.
A CRT television with a Nintendo Gamecube sitting on top.
The screen also has a chance of displaying one of the following games, each with a 3.03% chance.
Super Smash Bros. Melee
Super Mario Sunshine
Luigi's Mansion
Paper Mario: TTYD
Mario Kart: Double Dash
Super Mario Strikers
Mario Party 4
DK Jungle Beat
The Wind Waker
Twilight Princess
Four Swords Adventures
Metroid Prime
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes
Kirby's Air Ride
Star Fox Adventures
Star Fox Assault
Pokemon Colosseum
Pokemon XD
Pokemon Channel
F-Zero GX
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance
Wario World
WarioWare, Inc.
Pikmin
Pikmin 2
Animal Crossing
Chibi-Robo!
1080 Avalanche
Wave Race: Blue Storm
Custom Robo
Eternal Darkness
Doshin the Giant
Giftpia
TV + Wii: 5% chance. 30% damage.
A CRT television with a Nintendo Wii sitting on top.
The screen also has a chance of displaying one of the following games, each with a 3.03% chance.
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Super Mario Galaxy
Super Mario Galaxy 2
New Super Mario Bros. Wii
Mario Kart Wii
Super Paper Mario
Mario Strikers Charged
Donkey Kong Country Returns
The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
Link's Crossbow Training
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
Metroid: Other M
Kirby's Return to Dreamland
Kirby's Epic Yarn
Pokemon Battle Revolution
PokePark: Pikachu's Adventure
PokePark 2: Wonders Beyond
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn
Wario Land: Shake It!
WarioWare: Smooth Moves
Rhythm Heaven Fever
Animal Crossing: City Folk
Wii Fit
Punch-Out!! (Wii)
Wii Sports
Wii Sports Resort
Wii Party
Xenoblade Chronicles
Sin & Punishment: Star Successor
Excite Truck
Excitebots: Trick Racing
Endless Ocean
Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree
No Wii U or Switch because, A. I got tired of writing this, B. This is way too long as it is, and C. HDTVs were common by the time of the Wii U. The Wii was the last one that made sense to pair with a CRT imo, since a lot of people still had them.
0% chance: ROADO ROLLA DA, WRRRYYYY
Yes, Jojo's reference and yes, this move was heavily inspired by Peacock's Shadow of Impending Doom from Skullgirls.
Some extra third-party references assuming they'd be allowed:
Tetris Block: Falling blocks for the item spawn and fall move.
Door: Zombie (Resident Evil): "Look out it's a monster!" Jill "Sandwich" Valentine
Door: Zombie (Minecraft)
TV: Persona 4
Moai (Gradius)
Tenraiha (Darkstalkers/Vampire) – One of Hsien Ko/Lei Lei's supers. I'm mostly referring to the initial hit utilizing an iron weight with a face drawn on it, however, if made as one of the rarer spawns, perhaps you could still include the barrage of spike balls as well.
Is this all way too much work for one move realistically? Absolutely. But I liked the idea and got carried away thinking of all the possibilities given how perfect a move like this would be for easter eggs and additional cameos.
And one more honorable mention to King Zora from Ocarina of Time who I also thought of including because I thought it'd be funny if he awkwardly scooted over until he fell off the stage after being summoned.
Up Taunt
Winning Pose
Strikes a winning pose like he does in Urban Champion.
Left Taunt
Fighting Pose
Strikes a fighting pose, jabbing at the air and giving a wink towards the camera.
Right Taunt
^
Down Taunt
Nothing to See Here
Whistles with his hands in his pockets and looking away from the camera as though avoiding eye contact. Based on the animation characters take when the police car appears.
No Final Smash as of yet. Still couldn't think of one that I found fitting.
I initially threw around the idea of the patrol car showing up and arresting the other players while Champ got away with pretending to not be involved. I don't think that would fly though.
Ngl, this is definitely leagues more intricate than my Urban Champion moveset. I mean, I mostly just had him fight like a more violent and less-refined Little Mac, with some manholes and flower pots thrown in for good measure.
It's funny though, you mentioned having the Urban Champ look somewhat like Balloon Fighter, but I don't know... if anything, I think we might have just found a good model for him.
As someone who's also a big Nintendo fan, I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't especially enamored with Urban Champ's down special here. What's more, I kind of feel like it sorts of... fits? Like, considering where the Urban Champ lives and all, I can see him being a Nintendo fan on his 'downtime' so to speak.
Speaking of where he lives, imagine if Urban Champ exists in the Mario movie-verse??
I think a lot of characters are only expected because they catch the attention of the fan base at large. Honestly, that’s a big reason why I happily march to the beat of my own drum instead when it comes to speculation.
I don't think "is predicted a lot" really factors into Sakurai's mindset. Characters like Crash, Doomguy, and Geno were highly requested, and that likely helps a lot for their chances in Smash, but I don't think being highly predicted is going to help all that much
I know most people dont play 358 days because the game was turned into a movie in the HD collections but in the game he was the main star in he fights like Sora for the majority of its run time only getting his two sword style later on.
Also the fact that he is a literal clone of Sora in the lore and you have the perfect echo fighter.
Maybe you can squeeze in Xion as an alt skin for Roxas if your daring enough since she is also a clone with the same fighting style.
The first thing you see of Roxas is him scything through an army of Heartlesses while dual-wielding two of the strongest Keyblades in the game. He plays like Sora for much of the KH2 prologue, but pulling out the two Keyblades is framed as a massive deal; Similarly, him getting the second Keyblade in 358/2 Days is also his big moment, even lowering all the enemies' health to one just to recreate the KH1 bonus movie. And when you fight him as a boss or get him as an ally in KH3, he has the two Keyblades. Hell, KH3 even added a Double Form exclusive to Oathkeeper and Oblivion just so you could play like Roxas. That's his big friggin' thing. Giving that up just for the sake of filling an Echo slot would be a waste.
Xion though, she's probably fine. Her signature Keyblade is just an exact copy of Sora's, and she never goes beyond the one-sword style. She does get a lot of flashy tricks in Re:Mind for her boss fight that wouldn't fit into Sora's moveset, but Sora also had to drop a lot of crazy stuff for the sake of a coherent moveset. It wouldn't be her absolute full potential, but I don't Echo-Xion would be nearly as jarring as Echo-Sora
We do some forgetting in the retro Smash support - like how in the lead-up to Ultimate, post Super Bomberman R, Bomberman and Simon were both vying for who was anticipated as next from Konami. Or how first "the support was on Mega Man", like Bomberman wasn't right after him in the Brawl days. Big ol crack in the monolith. But we're old, so we're forgetful.
Or how the support focused on Mega Man then apparently Simon, as if there was no yellow ghost-eating guy in the middle there, whose popularity co-existed with Mega Man's for a while. And with Little Mac's.
It's not that the retro community is such a laser-focused entity, it's that there are really only a few characters that actually stand a chance. But the secret is... most of these series aren't any more retro than a lot of first-party series.
The commonality between Mega Man, Simon, Hayabusa, Bomberman, and even Pac-Man is their prevalence continued after being retro. Most of them, or at least their series, were kicking at least until the 00s. Castlevania's commercial peak was in the 10s. Ryu Hayabusa's most familiar look is his newer one. In the 00s, Mega Man was getting multiple games a year, with new sub-series basically every gen. That's why they're "big" enough to still have garnered support.
It's almost an oxymoron that the only "retro" characters with a decent shot are those whose series prospered well past being retro.
That's not retro so much as just being a popular character since the retro years - which applies to a lot of the first-party. And that's how their popularity was able to reach those levels, it didn't wither ages before they became noticed for Smash. That's a big difference between Castlevania and, like, Contra.
IMO, the main thing that made Ryu Hayabusa stick out to people is that Ninja Gaiden is the most iconic NES platforming game NOT to have a playable spot in the roster.
I don't think it's wrong, but I also don't think it's a strong enough excuse to think he's a guarantee for the "NEStalgia slot".
There's also the case that the company that owns him, Koei Tecmo, has worked so closely with Nintendo for so many years. So you put those two together and it makes Hayabusa's absence all the more glaring.
IMO, if you are going to include a character, you should try to make them as unique as possible, even if you theoretically could justify a near exact replica.
Roxas's entire iconography revolves around his dual keyblades, if you're going to include him it's going to be with the thing fans remember him for and not his origin story. I mean for goodness's sake, he's more popular than Riku, the damn Vegeta of the series. I'd despise it if he was relegating to doing dumb looking mid-air splits and weird poses like KH1 Sora.
And really, Smash Sora is very specifically KH1 Sora. Not even 358/2 Days Roxas fights like that, nor really any version of Sora from the sequels going forward. By the end of 358, Roxas is doing air-dashes and summoning light pillars without even dual wielding. I don't think anyone could play the 2 games back to back and say they're that similar in game-feel. If Smash Sora was as aggressive and acrobatic as KH2 and beyond, I'd be more partial to the idea but honestly it just feels weird to use my Roxas mod on Sora.
Hayabusa is one of those cases where people saw a fake leak with him on it and clung onto the idea for dear life even after said leak was without a doubt false merely because they wanted it to be real.
Had nothing to do with any "good case".
EDIT: It appears the term I used doesn't actually mean what I believed it meant, so I changed it out to be what I mean.
I disagree - if Ryu Hayabusa was such a liability to making your leak believable, he wouldn't have been included on so many subsequent lists. They included him because his inclusion was believable, because his case made sense.
Even if you just consider that Smash will presumably continue adding new companies, and of those which remain, especially of the Japanese ones, Koei-Tecmo is among the most notable, and from Koei-Tecmo... Ryu Hayabusa seems like their biggest name. Couple that with KT's standing with Nintendo, the fact they were already in the game, Ryu Hayabusa's appeal in both east and west (a diminishing category), and Ninja Gaiden's prevalence across different eras, and yeah... the character was a sensible prediction, which leads to why people making leaks which aim for believability would include him.
I don't doubt the amount of fake leaks he was on amplified his presence, but fake leak or no fake leak, Hayabusa would've been a character a lot of people landed on as soon as they tried to think which new companies might get involved. KT was a very obvious, even if incorrect, choice.
The closest thing we have to what you're describing, I think, was KOS-MOS. She was on a leak that gained traction, she scraped together a passionate if small fanbase who would overlook the many counterpoints because she's cool and they wanted leaks with her to be real, but ultimately just doesn't have the case to be more than a long-shot, and was far more infrequent on fake leaks.
TBH I've never liked any of the Star Fox characters in Smash. I mostly find it weird there's three of them and there's barely any references to their series in any of their movesets.
Since the series hasn't been as successful lately, I imagine content in Smash won't be a priority anymore. But they wouldn't cut the entire playable or stage roster.
TBH I've never liked any of the Star Fox characters in Smash. I mostly find it weird there's three of them and there's barely any references to their series in any of their movesets.
Since the series hasn't been as successful lately, I imagine content in Smash won't be a priority anymore. But they wouldn't cut the entire playable or stage roster.
TBH I've never liked any of the Star Fox characters in Smash. I mostly find it weird there's three of them and there's barely any references to their series in any of their movesets.
What else would you do with them exactly? I always thought Fox was designed as intuitively as he really could be, you have a number of the Arwing's functions represented abstractly through Fox's gadgets. You can shoot a blaster, you can blitz forward, you can put up a reflector. I think he's kinda perfect, and is pretty referential without beating you over the head with it. I guess the only thing I'd do nowadays if I had no frame of reference for Fire Fox would be something closer to his "Twisting Fox" custom in Smash 4, referencing the Barrel Roll. But I wouldn't bother changing that now, 25 years later.
Fox, Falco and Wolf are also just well designed and comfortable feeling characters. The reason there are three of them is because Fox is one of the more straightforward and effectively designed characters in the series, like Marth, so it's easy to use it as a framework to build and iterate on. It helps that given the series' otherwise limited material it makes an amount of sense to just have them all fight like their ships anyway. And then to fluff up their kits just pull from how dynamic these characters are - Falco and Wolf have such strong personalities, and have that basic animalistic theming you can always fall back on to distinguish them even further. I think they're great, I don't know any other way I'd rather have it.
IMO, the main thing that made Ryu Hayabusa stick out to people is that Ninja Gaiden is the most iconic NES platforming game NOT to have a playable spot in the roster.
I don't think it's wrong, but I also don't think it's a strong enough excuse to think he's a guarantee for the "NEStalgia slot".
I know people say this, but I think equally as important is the fact that Ryu Hayabusa wasn't just stuck in the retro era. It's the fact that coming back for a whole new successful line of games in the 00s elevated him from a retro character to just a well known gaming character in general, who will have fans spanning across decades. It's going to give him a whole new group of support from a more modern era, and only expand the series' size and fanbase.
I think that's what separates him from a character like Arthur. Or Bub and Bob. Having a wide timeline of prevalence makes him just more well rounded as a candidate. It's not like he's primarily depicted in his classic look when people make roster mockups.
I mean, look at the popularity of Crash and Doom Slayer from after they got new titles to when they were struggling. It's not like those original games didn't leave a mark or qualify them as notable characters. But spanning across gens makes them that much more significant.
I disagree - if Ryu Hayabusa was such a liability to making your leak believable, he wouldn't have been included on so many subsequent lists. They included him because his inclusion was believable, because his case made sense.
Even if you just consider that Smash will presumably continue adding new companies, and of those which remain, especially of the Japanese ones, Koei-Tecmo is among the most notable, and from Koei-Tecmo... Ryu Hayabusa seems like their biggest name. Couple that with KT's standing with Nintendo, the fact they were already in the game, Ryu Hayabusa's appeal in both east and west (a diminishing category), and Ninja Gaiden's prevalence across different eras, and yeah... the character was a sensible prediction, which leads to why people making leaks which aim for believability would include him.
I don't doubt the amount of fake leaks he was on amplified his presence, but fake leak or no fake leak, Hayabusa would've been a character a lot of people landed on as soon as they tried to think which new companies might get involved. KT was a very obvious, even if incorrect, choice.
The closest thing we have to what you're describing, I think, was KOS-MOS. She was on a leak that gained traction, she scraped together a passionate if small fanbase who would overlook the many counterpoints because she's cool and they wanted leaks with her to be real, but ultimately just doesn't have the case to be more than a long-shot, and was far more infrequent on fake leaks.
To a lesser degree, I think Adol ended up with a similar case, even if it was just constrained to SmashBoards. Granted, everyone acknowledged he'd be a more niche, Terry-esque legacy pick, but for a bit it felt like everyone had Falcom as "Hey, just maybe" prediction, and it was usually specifically Adol getting mentioned, even though Trails is far and away Falcom's biggest focus right now.
Admittedly I think I had a hand in that just because I was super active at the time and was obsessing over Ys, so then everyone had the impression that Ys was still Falcom's flagship when it's been solidly Trails for the past couple decades. It wasn't quite as widespread as KOS-MOS' backing, nor was Adol seen as a gigaton frontrunner, but in hindsight his feasibility as a potential low-key legacy candidate was kind of inflated.
Do you think Raymans got a good chance? I can't remember if it's just rumors but he's getting a new game and I think a remake with Michael Ancel involved
I'm obviously bias but I'd say his chances will be better next time.
Still highly requested, beloved character that resonates with alot of fans (the recent board game Kickstarter raised 900% of its goal), Showing up in a Mario game is definitely something noteworthy, his company is down to have him in, had prominent role in a Netflix show and combined with this new game on the horizon he'll be ALOT more relevant again.
Like others have said, he really only has one hurdle left and that's his big lack of popularity in Japan. We saw last time though they somewhat cracked the door open for western third parties, so just maybe they'll overlook his lack of Japan popularity and see that he's popular everywhere else? (And his games are at least still sold in the region).
So overall? I feel like his chances will be better this time. Don't know how high, but better for sure.
Ninja Gaiden is definitely a name that holds meaning. It's basically synonymous with that brutal difficulty that is associated with the NES era. I definitely think there's merit to adding Hayabusa. As a franchise, I see Ninja Gaiden on a similar level to Castlevania
I think that's what separates him from a character like Arthur. Or Bub and Bob. Having a wide timeline of prevalence makes him just more well rounded as a candidate.
I mean, it's not like either of those franchises is dead. They both got brand new games on Switch. They're actually more relavent NOW than Ninja Gaiden is currently.
But they are lacking the huge popular revival NG had in a more modern era.
To a lesser degree, I think Adol ended up with a similar case, even if it was just constrained to SmashBoards. Granted, everyone acknowledged he'd be a more niche, Terry-esque legacy pick, but for a bit it felt like everyone had Falcom as "Hey, just maybe" prediction, and it was usually specifically Adol getting mentioned, even though Trails is far and away Falcom's biggest focus right now.
Admittedly I think I had a hand in that just because I was super active at the time and was obsessing over Ys, so then everyone had the impression that Ys was still Falcom's flagship when it's been solidly Trails for the past couple decades. It wasn't quite as widespread as KOS-MOS' backing, nor was Adol seen as a gigaton frontrunner, but in hindsight his feasibility as a potential low-key legacy candidate was kind of inflated.
Yeah I guess. Falcom seemed to come up when there was a decreasing amount of other plausible candidates, which I think speaks for itself.
I mean I've been pretty steadfast in thinking anyone from Falcom is still a pretty big longshot. I can't speak for Japan, where I'm sure Falcom series are bigger, but I don't think taking them into account really hinders other Japanese companies like KT, ASW or Level-5 either.
Idk if they're going to look at it in terms of genre, but RPGs are also such a heavily crowded market in Japan, I think it would just be a little odd getting Ys/Trails over Tales or Nier or SMT or maybe even Chrono, imo. And that's without even Monster Hunter or Dark Souls.
I think fighting has a less crowded peak, especially when you put aside SF, vs. Capcom, and Mortal Kombat, that the only one I thought it was a little weird KoF got in before was Tekken. But then we got that too.
I feel like Estelle is way ahead of Adol for the spot of Falcom rep. She's more of a mascot for them than he is. LoH is more popular than Ys. And her first game has a remake coming to Switch(2?).
Besides, Adol is such a prototypical bland anime swordsman, he's perfect Mii Swordsman fodder.
I feel like Estelle is way ahead of Adol for the spot of Falcom rep. She's more of a mascot for them than he is. LoH is more popular than Ys. And her first game has a remake coming to Switch(2?).
Besides, Adol is such a prototypical bland anime swordsman, he's perfect Mii Swordsman fodder.
Didn't stop Terry getting over Nakoruru or Athena. And we know a character looking similar to another doesn't affect their chances any differently from a character looking different from another.
TBH I've never liked any of the Star Fox characters in Smash. I mostly find it weird there's three of them and there's barely any references to their series in any of their movesets.
The problem with the Star Fox characters is they're loose references to how they are.
The ability to Dash or using Fire Fox isn't really that odd from Boost stuff. Reflector is basically a minor reference to the Silver Rings combined with the ability to deflect stuff via a Barrel Roll. And finally, the Lasers are... literally from there. They also are legitimately onfoot in Star Fox 64, so them being able to fight without weapons alone is not really hard to believe. And then came along Star Fox Assault, in which Wolf can do that. ...And then Brawl, where, unsurprisingly, he fights on foot. Otherwise, we have the Landmasters and Arwings.
The problem is there's not a lot of actual tools from the series that are easy to make work in a fighting game either. There's a few minor items, but you can't really do much with it. In addition, Fox was added in when summoning something like that would've been very difficult to pull off. His Final Smashes are pretty much what it is, summoning a vehicle. Smart Bombs worked way better as regular items too, since they have mass range and are supposed to be essentially an area attack. They are hardly perfect, but they feel like an actual characters who can fight in the ground and in the air. In addition, regardless of the exact playstyle, a general aerial fighter is also going to often be a military trained person, so them being able to fight outside of their vehicle is a very reasonable expect that on that alone. ...Besides the fact they do know how to take action outside of a vehicle anyway. Only Star Fox and maybe Star Fox 2 didn't have that option.
Summoning something in the background is still taxing on a system. And in a 4-player game, you have to heavily avoid doing that too much. It wasn't till Brawl came around they could decently have a lot onscreen, and it was still limited. Smash Wii U was the first one to really let loose with that. Smash 3DS naturally was more limited. Smash Ultimate had a lot more options. Likewise, we did actually see summoners having less options due to being taxing on stuff like the 3DS, so we knew that that kind of stuff wasn't very easy to work with.
A good example is Beedrill. It still could chug Smash 64 if too much is happening. It could lag for days under some conditions. Melee, Brawl, and Smash 3DS could suffer from this too. Wii U and Ultimate were the least chuggy, and only because the systems were significantly more powerful. And even then, 8-Player Smash directly had certain things disabled to avoid too much onscreen. This didn't change in Ultimate. So why would they never really based around summoning? Because it was never plausible nor really would be. At least as long as Smash is more than 2 players at once. At least we have something like Rosalina(partial summoning) and Pikmin & Captain that can still summon stuff without giving issues, and that's due to them not doing too much at once, and the particular summons being smaller. To note, King Dedede did originally summon characters, but these were taken out due to how much they can tax the system. That also said... that's why AT's came about after Pokeballs. Because summons are fun, but they need to be more limited to balance 'em out.
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