Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Idon]

In fact, looking at MockRock's animation rankings they are consistently one of the worst animated characters when it comes to selling their attacks due to not pushing it far enough, and a lot of the time just not working very well conceptually.

I wouldn't put too much stock in mockrock's animation tier lists when Steve is consistently one of the top scorers for every single move despite the fact they are the far and away the ugliest moving character in the game.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I gotta say it’s pretty cool to see some “grassroots” movements happening lately within the boards. I’ve been pushing for Off the Hook for some time now but especially after Marina performed well in Swamp’s poll and the frequency of the topic it seems like people are really coming around on the idea. And it’s clear to me that Dededoo’s Oatchi moveset the other day won him a lot of new fans.

Time will tell if we’re on the mark here, but I like that we’ve been able to convince one another that these ideas are worth exploring. Especially because man, it’s an uphill battle to get people excited about newer Nintendo characters like that. Just very pleased with the tides turning, and that these are being treated more as genuinely great ideas in their own right and less so obligatory and simply tolerated “recency” pulls as contemporary picks often are.

#RideTheWave

 

[Swamp Sensei]

#RideTheWave

View attachment 394906

Honestly I think Funky being popular really shows just how easy it is to have a popular character go under the radar purely because they weren't talked about.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I wouldn't put too much stock in mockrock's animation tier lists when Steve is consistently one of the top scorers for every single move despite the fact they are the far and away the ugliest moving character in the game.

He and Mr. Game & Watch tend to get a pass for having a very rigid animation style, though I suppose by this logic so too should Wii Fit Trainer. Still, I'd say the former two tend to sell their moves as attacks while Wii Fit Trainer doesn't really. I remember disagreeing with him about his opinion on their forward smash though, I think that one works quite well.

I also hard disagree on his Kazuya animation opinions because I think the lack of hitstun combined with his high power and balloon knockback makes him feel powerful in a way that is entirely unique to him. I don't understand why he dislikes this lack of hitstun so much.

But I digress. Mainly I think the main problem is that most of their attacks just have them snap to certain poses. At best it means that they don't really do much to inform you about the character and at worst it causes the attack to feel like they aren't properly striking. For what I mean by the latter point, I'd say it's like Injustice's Darksheid, but not anywhere near as bad.

 

[SharkLord]

Oh yeah, then explain this image /s

View attachment 394886

Though on the topic of Rathalos you could technically have him be playable size if you went for the Monster Hunter Stories version, but I kinda doubt people really want to play as baby Rathalos

Yeah, Monstie Rathalos is a completely different vibe from mainline Rathalos. Rathalos as a boss is taller than the Hunters, and like twenty times as long. In Smash, even the scaled-down AT version is roughly as tall as Bowser and long enough to cover half the platform. Monstie Rathalos is pretty much a big Newfoundland, if that Newfoundland was a really weird dog with scales and wings. Plus, Ridley could be compacted into a hunched posture and Kraid is pretty rotund, so they could be reasonably scaled down while preserving their proportions (Though Kraid would be really pushing it); Rathalos is just long. I suppose we could move 'em a bit more upright in their flying posture, but even then they still fight on the ground to some degree.

All also add that, while it might be splitting hairs, Ridley and Raven Beak and even Kraid are portrayed as specific characters. Rathalos is meant to be a species of megafauna; Impersonal, well, monsters. Scaling them down to be on the level of the Smash fighters would take away a lot of the monster factor

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Rathalos would probably be much easier to add to Marvel Vs. Capcom since due to auto-turnaround, being long wouldn't be as bad as being tall can be.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Super Smash Bros. stops adding Nintendo characters, it wouldn't be Super Smash Bros. anymore.

That being said, I still want to see the series get more third-party newcomers. The franchise is gradually becoming a celebration of gaming as a whole and I think there's plenty of room for characters from tons of other franchises, in addition to those made and published by Nintendo themselves.

 

[Idon]

Rathalos would probably be much easier to add to Marvel Vs. Capcom since due to auto-turnaround, being long wouldn't be as bad as being tall can be.

Yeah I don't think doing left/right mix on a dragon whose width is greater than the entire stage is gonna make for fun or interesting gameplay.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Yeah, Monstie Rathalos is a completely different vibe from mainline Rathalos. Rathalos as a boss is taller than the Hunters, and like twenty times as long. In Smash, even the scaled-down AT version is roughly as tall as Bowser and long enough to cover half the platform. Monstie Rathalos is pretty much a big Newfoundland, if that Newfoundland was a really weird dog with scales and wings. Plus, Ridley could be compacted into a hunched posture and Kraid is pretty rotund, so they could be reasonably scaled down while preserving their proportions (Though Kraid would be really pushing it); Rathalos is just long. I suppose we could move 'em a bit more upright in their flying posture, but even then they still fight on the ground to some degree.

All also add that, while it might be splitting hairs, Ridley and Raven Beak and even Kraid are portrayed as specific characters. Rathalos is meant to be a species of megafauna; Impersonal, well, monsters. Scaling them down to be on the level of the Smash fighters would take away a lot of the monster factor

You know I don’t know why , but I kind of always assumed Rathalos worked on Yoshi rules , where there is a species of Yoshi but there is also the character of Yoshi as a specific one.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Just do Razewing Ratha from Stories 2.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Honestly I think Funky being popular really shows just how easy it is to have a popular character go under the radar purely because they weren't talked about.

On the topic of Funky, what would you want to see in his potential moveset?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah I don't think doing left/right mix on a dragon whose width is greater than the entire stage is gonna make for fun or interesting gameplay.

Depending on how if works, Rathalos getting hit by attacks that don't hit behind on any other character might be an issue. If they put a hurtbox on the tail (which I wouldn't do) it could also get clipped by more projectiles and that one Morrigan super would shut it down entirely.

I don't know how much left/right mixups factor into the series, but from what I've seen it's probably one of the few where you could get away with having a weakness like that. And if not, oddball characters having bizarre weaknesses like this is kinda on brand for the Vs. series so without getting into the full logistics of adding a character like that, I'm not overly worried.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Okay, so…let’s say the next Smash had 50 veterans, 15 newcomers, and 5 Echo Fighters. That’s about 70 characters. What kind of roster would you guys be able to make with those numbers?

Spoiler: Newcomers

Spoiler: Echoes

Spoiler: Veterans

Do you think it's portrayal is good? Do you feel Wii Fit should even be in the game? Do you think Wii Fit Trainer is a good choice for a character?

WFT should not have been a Fighter.

But they did a good job, and now that they're here, by the laws of EiH, I'm stuck with them.

Wii Fit on the other hand is not targeted toward "gamers". It's target was the blue ocean market that was very popular during the Wii era. This might be a stretch, but I think most people that picked up Wii Fit picked it up to get fit, not because it's a new franchise in Nintendo's legendary line up of video game series.

Wii Fit isn't really a game. It's wellness software.

WFT is like having Mavis Beacon in Smash.

I made the poll because I wanted to prove the idea that no one wants Nintendo newcomers is false.

You proved Nintendo characters could win popularity polls by having a poll with only Nintendo characters in it.

That's like saying "I wanted to prove turtles could win races. So I held a race with just turtles."

Super Smash Bros. stops adding Nintendo characters, it wouldn't be Super Smash Bros. anymore.

That being said, I still want to see the series get more third-party newcomers. The franchise is gradually becoming a celebration of gaming as a whole and I think there's plenty of room for characters from tons of other franchises, in addition to those made and published by Nintendo themselves.

Realtalk: Any newcomer list that's over 3/4ths Nintendo characters is unrealistic.

Since Brawl, each game has added more 3P newcomers than the last. Fully half of Ultimate's newcomers were 3P.

These people with newcomer lists that are 90% 1P are in for a rude awakening when Smash 6 rolls around.

 

[Arcanir]

Realtalk: Any newcomer list that's over 3/4ths Nintendo characters is unrealistic.

Since Brawl, each game has added more 3P newcomers than the last. Fully half of Ultimate's newcomers were 3P.

These people with newcomer lists that are 90% 1P are in for a rude awakening when Smash 6 rolls around.

I'm assuming the rosters being made are for base game and the initial roster is predominately First Party. In fact, we've only had two Third Party newcomers at base for all three games they've appeared in, so if anything past precedence shows the expectation should be for a low amount, not high.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I'm assuming the rosters being made are for base game

With 15 newcomers?

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

With 15 newcomers?

I mean Melee had like 14, Brawl had 18, and Smash 4 had 14 in base without the Miis and 17 with them, so that's pretty typical outside of Ultimate's like 6 at base (11 with Echoes counted).

Melee's depends on how you count the clones potentially, so might not be typical here, but yeah.

For the sake of argument, here are totals with clones not counted.
Smash 64: 11 (because of Luigi)
Melee: 8 (because of Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Young Link, Falco, Pichu, and Roy)
Brawl: 15-17 (because of Toon Link and depending on which way you count Wolf and Lucas)
Smash 4: 15 at base (because of Lucina and Dark Pit, counting each Mii separately)
Ultimate: 5-6 at base (because of Daisy, Dark Samus, Chrom, Ken, and Richter being Echoes, range is dependent on how you count Isabelle)

 

[dream1ng]

70 characters in base seems a little high to me, assuming they start over. Which there being 39 cuts would imply. Total, sure. Base, idk.

As would, frankly, 20 newcomers (5 being echoes). It's not that they couldn't do that, I just think there's going to be a bigger focus on providing a regular rollout of DLC characters, resulting in a base volume less than the previous max.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Heck, just throw Glass Joe over Mac's Brawl AT if you don't have time for anything else.

Is that a reference?

 

[ninjahmos]

Is that a reference?
View attachment 394907

Joe & Mac (Caveman Ninja) for Smash?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Plus, I can't imagine a shrunk down Raven Beak looking weirder than the shrunk down Ridley we currently have anyways.

This. And he won't. Raven Beak has humanoid proportions. That's easy to work with. Ridley..... not all that much.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I mean Melee had like 14, Brawl had 18, and Smash 4 had 14 in base without the Miis and 17 with them, so that's pretty typical outside of Ultimate's like 6 at base (11 with Echoes counted).

Fair enough.

 

[Diddy Kong]

On the topic of Funky, what would you want to see in his potential moveset?

Lots of surfing and being funky. I'm not all too much sold on MK8 stuff. Please just , surfing, DK64 weaponry maybe and lots or creative liberty. He could work as a DK semi clone too. A form of likeness to DK is warranted, he was like that in his playable role in Tropical Freeze too.

At least a comparable Down B. A wind up surfboard slam as a charge up Neutral B? Or maybe rather Side B, and no charge up

I do imagine a version of Spinning Kong as Up B but with a surfboard and water effect would be fun. Call it Surfing Kong.

Remaining Specials are the Boot Bazooka and Orange Grenates. Orange Grenates cause they're used universally by every Kong in DK64. I am not especially fan of Funky using just about every weapon in DK64 just because.

And am especially NOT fan of making him a Mario Kart character by having the motorcycle as a Side B.

What would be fun is surfboard tricks as aerials. Am 1000% sold on this. He did these sort of attacks too when doing the boss finishing flurry punches in Tropical Freeze.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Fair enough.

Personally, I'm sorta feeling a 12-15 range for unique newcomers maybe, possibly like 14-17 with clones included, but that's just the feeling I have about it right now, and it's almost entirely based on Smash 4's numbers lol

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Super Smash Bros. stops adding Nintendo characters, it wouldn't be Super Smash Bros. anymore.

Precisely!
What started as pair of exceptions (Sonic and Snake) has became the norm overtime. And this is exactly why we (right?) don't want non videogame characters in Smash, not even one. And R.O.B. is already stretching the rule.
Though... This guy could stretch it even more:


NGL, I was really tempted to add him among the newcomers..
Said that I'm not totally surprised at all the backlash on my list, I might have been too creative, I'm just surprised at someone complaining about cutting a big slice of Fire Emblem characters. I thought we were all agreeing about the series being over represented for advertisment use, and about the characters looking like all the same, except IMHO for Corrin, which I like but deleted anyway for par condicio, leaving just the original FE rep and leaving space for the unavoidably new one.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm just surprised at someone complaining about cutting a big slice of Fire Emblem characters. I thought we were all agreeing about the series being over represented for advertisment use, and about the characters looking like all the same, except IMHO for Corrin, which I like but deleted anyway for par condicio, leaving just the original FE rep and leaving space for the unavoidably new one

Because you overcorrected big time. You took a popular series and nearly gutted it. You got rid of uber popular characters like Ike. The two landmark titles in Awakening and Three Houses now have nothing. Four characters is probably a happy medium.

A Fire Emblem roster likes this covers all the bases that should probably be covered. Maybe throw in a newcomer if you want but 4-5 is a much more reasonable number. That puts it around the size of Metroid, which is roughly as popular and historically important. Fire Emblem isn't a super obscure series anymore and hasn't been for years. Each game sells a few million copies nowadays

Funnily enough, Corrin was the one that stood out to you, but he's the one both the Fire Emblem and Smash fanbase don't like.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Funnily enough, Corrin was the one that stood out to you, but he's the one both the Fire Emblem and Smash fanbase don't like.

I think "he" is the operative word here.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think "he" is the operative word here.

What does Lanky Kong have to do with this?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

What does Lanky Kong have to do with this?

Having a funny face.

But the point I'm making is that is given far less vitriol than in the FE fandom.
She'd been consistently within the Top 10 for females for CYL with the one year she was knocked lower being because the Three Houses characters got added to the poll.

That doesn't come off as someone who is "disliked".

 

[SPEN18]

they're the one both the Fire Emblem and Smash fanbases don't like as much.
fixed.

 

[Idon]

Said that I'm not totally surprised at all the backlash on my list, I might have been too creative, I'm just surprised at someone complaining about cutting a big slice of Fire Emblem characters. I thought we were all agreeing about the series being over represented for advertisment use, and about the characters looking like all the same, except IMHO for Corrin, which I like but deleted anyway for par condicio, leaving just the original FE rep and leaving space for the unavoidably new one.

Well firstly, you'll find the smash community (or any of them) being hard pressed to fully agree on any individual topic, especially one as contentious as cuts.

Secondly, like it or not, Fire Emblem is absolutely massive now, both in and out of smash, and has a fairly sizable playerbase/fanbase so cutting it to just the original representative, less than even melee's count is going to sizable amount of people quite negative on your roster. It may be that some characters got in due to convenient promotional timing, but that doesn't mean much once you establish a foothold.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

they're the one both the Fire Emblem and Smash fanbases don't like as much.
fixed.

Funny enough, outside of 2019 where there seemed to be a huge push for , had been ranked higher than her in every CYL the two were together.

And between and , only in 2020 and 2023 (the year they both qualified) did the latter outrank.

It's really just bogging things down.

 

[AlRex]

I tried that roster challenge thing. Doing it in a doc is easier, so this is the form it takes. Even then, I change my mind way too much, so don’t necessarily take this as a great plan. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NhM1FSyRDg3gT2SWf5WegliaOEH2V3-WJPW9_4hmN64/edit

 

[Hypercat-Z]

they're the one both the Fire Emblem and Smash fanbases don't like as much.
fixed.

Jeez! Why am I always ending up liking the worse character in the group?

Well firstly, you'll find the smash community (or any of them) being hard pressed to fully agree on any individual topic, especially one as contentious as cuts.

You know guys, these are the reasons I'm not always making up rosters.
But I'm fully certain the next true one will displease some people anyway.
You know what? I'm starting to think the primary role of the WTF character in every edition is to make all the other characters, even the oddest ones, more senseful and normal.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

You asked for it:

Spoiler

 

[Perkilator]

On the topic of Funky, what would you want to see in his potential moveset?

I actually made my own moveset a while back

 

[BritishGuy54]

You asked for it:

Spoiler

0/10 no

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

0/10 no

Ooof, I was sure I was forgetting something.
Goodbye to Roy then...

 

[Pupp135]

Okay, so…let’s say the next Smash had 50 veterans, 15 newcomers, and 5 Echo Fighters. That’s about 70 characters. What kind of roster would you guys be able to make with those numbers?

Here’s my most recent attempt at a 50-55 veteran and 10-12 newcomer roster (I’m excluding echoes from the counts).
(Waluigi)(Ashley)
(Sidon)
(Tinkaton)(Bandana Waddle Dee)
(Tom Nook)(Octoling) (Off the Hook)()(Oatchi)(Ring Fit Trainee)
(Excitebike Rider)(Knuckles)
(Lloyd Irving)

Spoiler: Reasons

I had a previously submitted roster above that included Falco, Bayonetta, Ken, and Steve but excluded Lyn, Isaac, and Chun-Li, and here is what the updated roster looks like. Please note that I count Pokemon Trainer as three fighters and Aegis as two.

(Waluigi)(Ashley)
(Sidon)(Lyn)
(Tinkaton)(Bandana Waddle Dee)
(Tom Nook)(Octoling) (Off the Hook)()(Oatchi)(Ring Fit Trainee)
(Excitebike Rider)(Isaac)(Knuckles)(Chun-Li)
(Lloyd Irving)​

I’ll just go over the logic of my newcomers that I added to my updated roster:
Lyn: She‘s one of the most popular Fire Emblem characters.
Isaac: He is a requested fighter despite the dormant nature of his franchise (a bonus that he’s one of my most wanted fighters)
Chun-Li: One of the most prominent fighting game characters.

To help summarize everything, here is each set for veterans, newcomers, and echoes

Spoiler: Veterans

Spoiler: Newcomers

Spoiler: Echoes

Later today, I’m thinking of displaying some descriptive stats from the Gamefaqs will they return thread that was recently completed.

 

[BuckleyTim]

NGL I think it's funny to describe encouraging the support of some of the most popular Nintendo characters of the last console generation as grassroots. Obviously the Smash hardcore perennially has their head in the sand regarding things that aren't the same 5 characters they grew up with that arent in smash yet, but still... Marina and Oatchi especially aren't characters that I think need to beat the odds with a swelling of fan support.

Obviously if they get in it's not because the smash hardcore were supporting them, but I'm not sure that matters too much as the first party characters that got into Ultimate for the most part were in most cases characters that I swore the casuals and hardcore would be in agreement on, while more niche characters were AT'd/spirited. Like, the hardcore weren't yelling about Daisy... But she made sense. If funky Kong is the Daisy of DK, then I wouldn't worry about his chances too much based on what the bad take machine that is smash speculation reddit/twitter thinks, and that goes double for marina and the little yellow alien space dog that I've seen mentioned nonstop since he first appeared on the scene.

Maybe this is just me whinging that "most popular niche pick" is a bit of an oxymoron after a certain point, idk. I also guess when you speculate about it all the time then nothing truly feels niche anymore, lol

 

[Gengar84]

So it seems like the general consensus is that Chun-Li would be the top choice for the next Street Fighter character, which makes a lot of sense. She’s one of the most iconic video game characters and among the first really popular female game characters. The question is who do you think comes next if we ever get a fourth down the line? I feel like it’s probably between three characters if we get a fully unique character: M. Bison, Guile, and Juri Han.

Bison and Guile are both really important to the plot and are popular characters that have been around since Street Fighter 2. Juri would be a fresh face that would represent the more modern side of the series and seems to be really popular in her own right. Then there’s Akuma, who is also really important and probably the most likely since he’d be easier to add as a semiclone rather than a fully original character like the previous three. Who would you choose for the fourth character if we ever get to that point?