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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Gengar84

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No, Geno absolutely isn't the most likely Super Mario newcomer for Smash 6. He is inherently in a disadvantageous spot, competing with both his fellow Super Mario characters and other characters owned by Square. That means that both Nintendo and Square would have to prioritize Geno (a very niche character) over big names from both Mario and Square Enix franchises. Also, in a game that's pretty likely to have major cuts, especially from 3rd parties, I don't expect Geno to take precedent over Sephiroth or Sora.

No, Waluigi isn't "a distant third". He's a frontrunner after Ridley, K. Rool and Banjo got in. He's a much bigger name, much more requested, and yes, would have a funner moveset. Geno would just be a magical gunner. Y'all like to pretend spinoff characters have no moveset potential, but Waluigi has a very clear motif; he's a cheater, he's desperate for the spotlight and is willing to do anything to be in it. Also, if anyone is fit to represent Mario spinoffs, it is the character who was literally birthed from & characterized around them. Not to mention Waluigi's proportions are super unique and would lend themselves to all sorts of funny animations and attacks.

King Boo and Kamek over Waluigi.... I'm not even gonna comment on that. Nothing against those two, I'd actually enjoy seeing them, but it's not happening.
I agree with you that Waluigi is one of the most likely newcomers overall. He’s had a ton of fan support for many years and is featured in nearly every Mario spinoff title. I don’t think it’s fair to say he has no moveset potential. Sakurai has made it work for tons of other characters like Villager, Duck Hunt, Captain Falcon, and Wii Fit Trainer. I will caution against saying anything is definitively “not happening” though. After all, I don’t think any of us could have predicted we’d see Piranha Plant before Waluigi. Who’s to say they couldn’t do it again with King Boo or Kamek?
 
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Will

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Idk about bringing the “fun” of movesets between two potential newcomers.

I’d play a magic gunner. Geno would probably have a technical mechanic with attack inputs that make his moves a little stronger, inspired by SMRPG’s battle mechanic. That’s what I would do in the designer’s chair, and it makes playing him sound rewarding.

On the flip side, I don’t really care how Waluigi plays as long as he’s playable. :239:
 
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Louie G.

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King Boo, who would use ghostly shenanigans to gain the upper hand in battle.
I disagree pretty heavily with most of your other points, but I do want to talk about King Boo as a potential sleeper pick. Because simply put, Luigi's Mansion 3 was a massive success. It's sold over 14 million copies, cracking top 15 best selling games on the Switch - the other two games did pretty well for their respective consoles, but as a frame of reference LM3 has sold millions more than the collective units moved between both games. So believe it or not, Luigi's Mansion is one of the Switch's biggest winners.

King Boo himself has some presence in the greater Mario universe too, being a Kart mainstay at this point and even popping up in Wonder recently. Although certainly his role in Luigi's Mansion is doing the heavy lifting here, as it should. And the moveset hook is just obvious really, we don't have any ghost characters in Smash period. Attacks based on phasing through opponents, disappearing, scaring your foes and maybe applying some sort of debuff effect? When weighing out what all these characters have to offer, I'd argue this is by far the most fresh and unique. I like him for a lot of the same reasons I've always thought Gengar would be pretty cool.

Granted, this might overlap a bit with the obvious trickster / "cheater" motif that Waluigi would carry. Who I guess I should also chime in on and say is easily the most likely candidate. I try not to make calls about who is a "lock" but he's the only first party doing Ridley and K. Rool numbers right now, and he is quite literally from Nintendo's most active franchise and has no perceivable issues in implementation which honestly puts him in a far more confident spot than either of those two at the peaks of their popularity.
 
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Gengar84

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I just want a playable Goomba or Goombella but I don’t see either as particularly likely. Goombas have always been my favorite Mario enemy and I loved Goombella as a character. At least we finally got a playable Goomba in Mario Party. We just need to see the same for Mario Kart.

I’ve never played a Luigi’s Mansion game but Boos are probably my second favorite Mario enemy after Goombas. I think King Boo could be a lot of fun from what I’ve seen and he’d be pretty unique. Gengar’s still my ghost of choice but I’d be happy to see King Boo as well.

Wart would be another fun option that seems to have been lost to time. I thought he had a fun design and his attacks were pretty interesting in his boss fight. I’d at least like to see him brought back for the Mario spinoff games.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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No, Geno absolutely isn't the most likely Super Mario newcomer for Smash 6. He is inherently in a disadvantageous spot, competing with both his fellow Super Mario characters and other characters owned by Square. That means that both Nintendo and Square would have to prioritize Geno (a very niche character) over big names from both Mario and Square Enix franchises. Also, in a game that's pretty likely to have major cuts, especially from 3rd parties, I don't expect Geno to take precedent over Sephiroth or Sora.
I suppose that makes sense.

No, Waluigi isn't "a distant third". He's a frontrunner after Ridley, K. Rool and Banjo got in. He's a much bigger name, much more requested, and yes, would have a funner moveset. Geno would just be a magical gunner. Y'all like to pretend spinoff characters have no moveset potential, but Waluigi has a very clear motif; he's a cheater, he's desperate for the spotlight and is willing to do anything to be in it. Also, if anyone is fit to represent Mario spinoffs, it is the character who was literally birthed from & characterized around them. Not to mention Waluigi's proportions are super unique and would lend themselves to all sorts of funny animations and attacks.
The main problem is that what he has to work with is super disjointed. Combining sports, board games, and kart racing is going to be pretty difficult if it works at all. As far as a cheater motif goes, how would you even represent that? Traveling? Pocket Sand?

I dunno. I just don't think he's super likely.
King Boo and Kamek over Waluigi.... I'm not even gonna comment on that. Nothing against those two, I'd actually enjoy seeing them, but it's not happening.
To be clear, I wasn't saying King Boo or Kamek specifically, but they were options from this category, which I now think this is the most likely outcome.
 

CannonStreak

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No, Geno absolutely isn't the most likely Super Mario newcomer for Smash 6. He is inherently in a disadvantageous spot, competing with both his fellow Super Mario characters and other characters owned by Square. That means that both Nintendo and Square would have to prioritize Geno (a very niche character) over big names from both Mario and Square Enix franchises. Also, in a game that's pretty likely to have major cuts, especially from 3rd parties, I don't expect Geno to take precedent over Sephiroth or Sora.

No, Waluigi isn't "a distant third". He's a frontrunner after Ridley, K. Rool and Banjo got in. He's a much bigger name, much more requested, and yes, would have a funner moveset. Geno would just be a magical gunner. Y'all like to pretend spinoff characters have no moveset potential, but Waluigi has a very clear motif; he's a cheater, he's desperate for the spotlight and is willing to do anything to be in it. Also, if anyone is fit to represent Mario spinoffs, it is the character who was literally birthed from & characterized around them. Not to mention Waluigi's proportions are super unique and would lend themselves to all sorts of funny animations and attacks.

King Boo and Kamek over Waluigi.... I'm not even gonna comment on that. Nothing against those two, I'd actually enjoy seeing them, but it's not happening.
I agree Geno is not that likely, but you seem to forget he is still popular. I do expect Waluigi and others to get in before him, but Ido think even if he is a magical gunner, that is no bad thing. Plus, he came from a game where times hits were a thing, and that could be incorporated in his moveset. Not that I think Geno is that likely, but I don’t think you are giving him that much credit. There is that SMRPG remake after all. That should boost his chances some. Besides, I would worry about his competition with Square Enix characters more than Mario characters since he is owned by Square Enix characters. Plus, it is said that Sakurai did want Geno in as a playable in a past Smash Bros. game.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Attacks based on phasing through opponents...
Imagine if they brought back body blocking, and King Boo straight up ignores the mechanic. That would be such a fun little nod to his incorporeal trait.

I just want a playable Goomba or Goombella but I don’t see either as particularly likely. Goombas have always been my favorite Mario enemy and I loved Goombella as a character. At least we finally got a playable Goomba in Mario Party. We just need to see the same for Mario Kart.
I don't think we'll see a Goomba or other regular enemy in the next game just because Piranha Plant was just done. However, I do think we'll eventually see Goomba and Hammer Bro., it'll just be a long time in the future.
 

Louie G.

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The main problem is that what he has to work with is super disjointed. Combining sports, board games, and kart racing is going to be pretty difficult if it works at all. As far as a cheater motif goes, how would you even represent that? Traveling? Pocket Sand?

I dunno. I just don't think he's super likely.
To put it bluntly, a Sakurai built Waluigi moveset would not look like a fan constructed one. We've seen a lot of fan movesets that make Waluigi this jumbled unfocused mess of a character, or tailor him around memes, or whatever. I admit I could be wrong, but I just do not see an official moveset having him randomly jump into a go-kart, throw out a dice block and use every piece of sports equipment known to man. Respectfully, that's kind of boring.

Not that some of that can't pop up, like I'm sure he'd use his tennis racket at least. But Waluigi has been a clearly defined character from the start, and that dynamic personality - this strange, offputting cheater - already defines a great deal of his kit. Plenty of Smash characters have moves drawn out from their personality. Luigi for example - look at his dash attack, his forward smash, his down tilt. He is perpetually conveyed as this meek, awkward little guy. Despite sharing a lot of elements with his brother, it's his personality that really makes him unique. Even if some people believe they laid it on a bit too thick.

So have Waluigi poke his opponents in the eyes. Let him drop fake ?-blocks on stage, give him all those Wii Fit Trainer esque wacky, unexpected hitboxes and launch angles. Have him fail spectacularly... maybe his specials become high risk high reward, where you have the option to charge them up or enhance them at a great expense later where it can just blow up in your face if you aren't responsible. Waluigi has anime goon DNA and is susceptible to go blasting off like Team Rocket at any moment, you can pretty much build him like Wile E Coyote. Imagine him pelting you with a tennis ball launcher from across the stage, but you can whack the ball back and it gets stuck in the machine and blows him up. I dunno, you get the picture.

Yes, most of these things are not explicitly representing something from a video game. But not every character does. Ridley's design in particular is guided more by his ruthless, violent tendencies and informed by elements of his character design than it is specifically bits from Metroid games. Not that the inspiration is nonexistent, but it was far more important to accurately represent Ridley as a character than to simply build a moveset out of references. This is the realm Waluigi rests in, and is by far the most compelling angle they could take with him. I implore people to try and be more creative when thinking about this character and stepping out of that whole reference heavy mindset we see so often.
 
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GoldenYuiitusin

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Even as someone who had straight up wanted Waluigi since Brawl, I feel people are massively overhyping him as a potential option.

Literally the only thing that's changed for him since being revealed as an Assist for the third time in a row is the "notable outcry" that's really just a bunch of people making asses out of themselves after the fact either unironically or ironically solely for memes' sake.

That really doesn't sound like something that would benefit any character.
 
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superprincess

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The main problem is that what he has to work with is super disjointed. Combining sports, board games, and kart racing is going to be pretty difficult if it works at all. As far as a cheater motif goes, how would you even represent that? Traveling? Pocket Sand?

I dunno. I just don't think he's super likely.
A "disjointed" moveset isn't a bad thing as long as it fits the character. Especially a character as wacky as Waluigi. Let's take a couple examples that are in Smash already:

Peach: She pulls out a tennis racket, golf club or a frying pan for her forward smash, as well as a parasol for her up special. She uses Toad as a metshield in her neutral special and pulls turnips from the ground for her down special. She can float and use heart magic, but her original side special caused an explosion on impact.

Villager: He can steal your projectile, throw Lloid as a homing missile, plant and grow trees, pummel you with boxing gloves and more. His up special is randomly a reference to Balloon Fight.

Pac-Man: He summons sprites of fruit and random objects like bells and keys for his neutral special. His side special is the classic Pac-Man form, down special is a 3D fire hydrant and up special is a literal line that somehow bounces you up.

And of course, there's the master of randomness Mr. Game & Watch.

Waluigi could easily be one of those characters that just do random stuff and it works. He could be designed in a similar way to Wario, with minimal references to actual games but in-character moves that were made up just for Smash and fits his nature of being a tryhard cheater.

The "spinoffs can't offer moveset potential" should have already died in 2001 when Peach got in with references to multiple spinoffs, or finally in 2014 with Bowser Jr. side B referencing Mario Kart. It's tired.
 

Gengar84

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Yeah, I’ve got no issues with Sakurai taking creative liberties with a character’s moveset if they didn’t really have much to pull from directly from their games. I think generally feeling like it’s something the character would do is preferable to forcing something that doesn’t really fit. I do think we’d ideally want to be as accurate as possible when the character’s abilities can actually play well in a game like Smash though. So I’d place more importance on the accuracy of a Beat ‘em Up character’s moveset than someone like Waluigi. As long as Waluigi keeps the silliness and unorthodox movements, that’s enough.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I'm slowly learning that if anyone disagrees with me on something, it's because I'm wrong and I should just agree with them. Any argument I would potentially make end up being really stupid and just an attempt to try to be right rather than actually interact with the argument itself.



Or I'm just atrocious at debate. Both are probably true.
 

Dinoman96

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Even as someone who had straight up wanted Waluigi since Brawl, I feel people are massively overhyping him as a potential option.

Literally the only thing that's changed for him since being revealed as an Assist for the third time in a row is the "notable outcry" that's really just a bunch of people making asses out of themselves after the fact either unironically or ironically solely for memes' sake.

That really doesn't sound like something that would benefit any character.
To be brutally honest, people are just trying to find the next Sonic/Mega Man/Ridley/K. Rool/Banjo/etc, a highly popular community favorite and in theory it seems like Waluigi's the next obvious step. Because of outside of him, what else really is there? Isaac? Dixie? Bandana Dee?

I still maintain that he'd probably would be playable by now if he could be made into an easy echo fighter like how Daisy was...problem is, you can't really do that with Waaah.
 

Gengar84

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I'm slowly learning that if anyone disagrees with me on something, it's because I'm wrong and I should just agree with them. Any argument I would potentially make end up being really stupid and just an attempt to try to be right rather than actually interact with the argument itself.



Or I'm just atrocious at debate. Both are probably true.
lol join the club. I’ve been the only one on my side of an argument many times on this board. I just chalk it up to people having their own opinions and that’s cool. It’s not really worth stressing out about changing anyone’s mind since we’re all just here to have fun.
 

superprincess

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Even as someone who had straight up wanted Waluigi since Brawl, I feel people are massively overhyping him as a potential option.

Literally the only thing that's changed for him since being revealed as an Assist for the third time in a row is the "notable outcry" that's really just a bunch of people making asses out of themselves after the fact either unironically or ironically solely for memes' sake.

That really doesn't sound like something that would benefit any character.
I dunno, I wouldn't call him a lock by any means, but I do remember the fan outcry being pretty major. Even Reggie said he'd make sure Sakurai is aware of the demand. Not every character has that significant of a following to the point where a representative of Nintendo officially recognizes it.

Also, let's not forget Smash only recently started including those Internet hype characters like Ridley and King K. Rool. Melee and Brawl mainly picked from the "If there was a Smash 2" poll, and Smash 4 didn't include many fan favorites besides Megaman and Little Mac. Ultimate went a lot further, to the point where now we're pretty much scraping the bottom of the "Internet hype" barrel, and Waluigi is a part of that.
 

Louie G.

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Literally the only thing that's changed for him since being revealed as an Assist for the third time in a row is the "notable outcry" that's really just a bunch of people making asses out of themselves after the fact either unironically or ironically solely for memes' sake.
I definitely understand the hesitation from someone who has passionately supported him for this long. I haven't been as staunchly invested in him but I've always loved Waluigi and passively supported him as well. But ironic or otherwise, Waluigi's vocal support has grown substantially. I don't really think Nintendo makes a distinction with "meme" popularity outside of characters like Shrek or Goku. Without making that distinction he is easily breaching Ridley levels if not higher.

I think even framed as a joke though, there's a lot of earnest support for the character. Waluigi is an inherently silly presence in Mario and it makes sense that much of his support is also coated with this unserious coat of (purple) paint. But he's also a prominent Mario character, one that progressively more and more people have grown up with and consider a main member of the cast. To the extreme casual eye, one that doesn't really understand the nuance of Smash and is uninterested in speculation, it probably straight up doesn't even make sense to them that he isn't in the game yet. Wario is in, etc etc.

So yeah some of that insincere, meme fueled support is kind of annoying, but I think it does more good than bad. I would assume Sakurai is smart enough to make the distinction between the guy who posted the 9/11 meme under his post and the thousands of fans who just like Waluigi from his source material. Hell, if Waluigi wasn't considered an important and popular character to begin with I don't think the AT bit would have taken off in the first place. At its core, it came from sincere disappointment. The most bothersome part of all of that is the people who are convinced "the joke wouldn't work" if Waluigi ever got promoted.
 
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Gengar84

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I think one thing that should give fans of long requested characters hope is now a lot of characters that had even more support than they did are already in. Even if the circumstances for any particular character may not have changed, they’re still more likely than they were due to process of elimination. That still doesn’t guarantee their chances of making it this time but it helps.
 
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Borskaboska

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Jun 14, 2018
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So guys, what do you guys think of the state of the Star Fox franchise? What's the future look like?

DK is at least getting ports and F-Zero finally got a game.

Is Star Fox just **** outta luck?
I said this in another thread, but I think the starfox cast is surprisingly really suited to a fighting game. Especially with that battle begins video, it makes me think an ark-sys styled anime fighter would work really well. And imagine tourney announcers having to say "pigma" in finals.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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lol join the club. I’ve been the only one on my side of an argument many times on this board. I just chalk it up to people having their own opinions and that’s cool. It’s not really worth stressing out about changing anyone’s mind since we’re all just here to have fun.
Yeeeah the more I think about the post, the more I think I shouldn't have said that. It's giving me "I'm upset. Please compliment me" vibes. That being said, there's some things I'll try to keep in mind in the future:
  1. It's OK to be wrong.
  2. It's OK to still disagree even if you very definitively lost the argument.
    • Right conclusion, wrong logic is a thing, after all, and this isn't exactly a science here.
That should save me from getting upset 'cause I'm caught between not being stubborn and not being more flip floppy than a pancake.

I might go back to making moveset ideas for potential newcomers. My previous attempt didn't seem to generate a whole lot of discussion due to being an inherently "too long, didn't read" kinda thing, and I think I was a little disheartened by that, and so didn't do much more than what I did with Bandana Waddle Dee. Perhaps I could use the fan game I'm working on to help demonstrate the ideas as well. That relies on me a) getting far enough in to actually make a character in it, and b) figuring out how to record something like that, but it sounds like a neat idea.
 

smashkirby

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I only found one aspect of SSE annoying; the higher gravity to every character, which made many barely usable at all during some areas. Otherwise, it was pretty fun. Sure, I'd like more non-OC enemies, but that didn't outright bother me.
Oh, YEAH. The higher gravity was (and still sort of IS) definitely... AN issue I had to work around. Ngl, it was almost funny in a way how the cast sort of fumbles around in the air like they're swimming and drowning in it.

My God, if Little Mac (as he currently is) was in the SSE?? I don't even want to think about that kind of torture...

It's been a looong time, but I 100%'d SSE before. On the level select screen there should be a crown-type symbol indicating the level is 100%'d, instead of just a flag. 100% here means including orange cubes, yeah. For the Great Maze, which has multiple entry points on the level select screen, you should have that crown symbol over all entry points.
Really?? Well, I haven't gotten the crowns on ANY of those entry points. I just figured I'd get them after Sonic and Tabuu were encountered...

So does this mean those crowns can come about BEFORE fighting Tabuu (and having Sonic join you)?

You're not alone, I had fun with the Great Maze too. Granted I remember ** was grueling, I think it was the only time my kid self needed to use my strategy guide, but I remember it felt good as ** when I finally made it to the end.

Of course if they didn't put save spots anywhere and I didn't have the book I might be singing a different tune.
Well, it's nice to see a kindred spirit on this! But yeah, I totally agree. If save spots WEREN'T a thing during this? Oh, I'd also be singing a whole 'nother kind of tune myself right now.
 

CannonStreak

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Oh, YEAH. The higher gravity was (and still sort of IS) definitely... AN issue I had to work around. Ngl, it was almost funny in a way how the cast sort of fumbles around in the air like they're swimming and drowning in it.

My God, if Little Mac (as he currently is) was in the SSE?? I don't even want to think about that kind of torture...



Really?? Well, I haven't gotten the crowns on ANY of those entry points. I just figured I'd get them after Sonic and Tabuu were encountered...

So does this mean those crowns can come about BEFORE fighting Tabuu (and having Sonic join you)?



Well, it's nice to see a kindred spirit on this! But yeah, I totally agree. If save spots WEREN'T a thing during this? Oh, I'd also be singing a whole 'nother kind of tune myself right now.
I enjoyed the Subspace Emissary, and I really liked the Great Maze! It may have had some issues, but it was cool and fun!
 
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Garteam

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The Washington Post of all companies wrote a news piece about how requested Waluigi is for Smash and how pissed off people were to find out he wasn't in Ultimate.

I'm not going to pretend that everything institutionalized media says is gospel, but the fact that this article exists at all demonstrates just how popular Waluigi is. He's reached a point where even people who don't keep up with Smash closely know just how desired he is as a Smash character, similar to Ridley and K. Rool pre-Ultimate. He's going to be in the next Smash regardless of what form it takes based off this sheer demand alone.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Oh, YEAH. The higher gravity was (and still sort of IS) definitely... AN issue I had to work around. Ngl, it was almost funny in a way how the cast sort of fumbles around in the air like they're swimming and drowning in it.

My God, if Little Mac (as he currently is) was in the SSE?? I don't even want to think about that kind of torture...
I'd imagine they'd have increased his jump force more than normal in that mode since his gravity is already super high, as is his fall speed. He probably wouldn't even be able to get off the ground otherwise. lol
 

DarthEnderX

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Even as someone who had straight up wanted Waluigi since Brawl, I feel people are massively overhyping him as a potential option.

Literally the only thing that's changed for him since being revealed as an Assist for the third time in a row is the "notable outcry" that's really just a bunch of people making asses out of themselves after the fact either unironically or ironically solely for memes' sake.
We need Waluigi's Wrecking Crew. Then he's a shoe-in.
 

BritishGuy54

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Re: Mario Newcomer

There is no way Geno is the most likely Mario newcomer. I’m sorry, but I don’t think Geno takes priority over the fan pick everyone has been wanting (ironically or unironically), or the much more consistently present RPG character that has appeared on every system since the N64 and also recently got a remake, just like Geno.

And I think it’s entirely possible other Square Enix characters take priority too, even in DLC. He might be lucky in DLC, but I would not expect it.
 

CannonStreak

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Re: Mario Newcomer

There is no way Geno is the most likely Mario newcomer. I’m sorry, but I don’t think Geno takes priority over the fan pick everyone has been wanting (ironically or unironically), or the much more consistently present RPG character that has appeared on every system since the N64 and also recently got a remake, just like Geno.

And I think it’s entirely possible other Square Enix characters take priority too, even in DLC. He might be lucky in DLC, but I would not expect it.
I respect your opinion. I do agree with the first part, but I don’t know about the rest…with that SMRPG remake, some think he has a better chance at base than DLC.

But yeah, I don’t see Geno as a top or high priority character here.
 

DarthEnderX

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There is no way Geno is the most likely Mario newcomer. I’m sorry, but I don’t think Geno takes priority over the fan pick everyone has been wanting (ironically or unironically), or the much more consistently present RPG character that has appeared on every system since the N64 and also recently got a remake, just like Geno.
There's one important factor you're ignoring:
Sakurai actually wants Geno. And he thinks Waluigi is just an internet joke.

To be brutally honest, people are just trying to find the next Sonic/Mega Man/Ridley/K. Rool/Banjo/etc, a highly popular community favorite and in theory it seems like Waluigi's the next obvious step. Because of outside of him, what else really is there? Isaac? Dixie? Bandana Dee?
A bajillion 3P characters?

It's OK to be wrong.
It's also okay to be right when everyone else is wrong.
 
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WeirdChillFever

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I agree Geno is not that likely, but you seem to forget he is still popular. I do expect Waluigi and others to get in before him, but Ido think even if he is a magical gunner, that is no bad thing. Plus, he came from a game where times hits were a thing, and that could be incorporated in his moveset. Not that I think Geno is that likely, but I don’t think you are giving him that much credit. There is that SMRPG remake after all. That should boost his chances some. Besides, I would worry about his competition with Square Enix characters more than Mario characters since he is owned by Square Enix characters. Plus, it is said that Sakurai did want Geno in as a playable in a past Smash Bros. game.
Geno’s popularity I think is partially an exponent of survivor’s bias: At the end of Smash Ultimate’s lifespan he was probably one of the most requested characters, but that’s partially because his Mii Costume returning didn’t put him out of his misery until Sepiroth. Geno had the advantage of a fanbase eager to speculate and the momentum that entailed. Compared to other high-popularity characters like Skull Kid, Ashley, Krystal and Isaac, whose discussion and speculation was shut down in the early days of Ultimate speculation, Geno’s suspicious absence allowed his speculation to snowball in a field where similar characters got thrown in the Assist Trophy abyss. Still, Geno’s factors have never been logical, and all he really needs are Sakurai willing to play ball (he is, on the record, multiple times). Anything else is just extra.

The fact that Waluigi was one of those and still revived himself in the discussion is the true testament to his popularity, although part of his popularity was because he was so memetically shot down at first sight. In a field where it wasn’t realistic or feasible to discuss the chances of Ashley, Skull Kid, Isaac and others, Geno soared comparatively, but once the field is truly wide open again and everyone is on the table, Geno might not be the frontrunner so clearly.

Waluigi’s moveset isn’t too hard to construct thanks to his gangly frame and exaggerated animations in the Mario series: Even the most basic move archetypes (Your flip kick Up Air, a bicycle kick Up Smash, a leg sweep Down Tilt) would already be unique for Waluigi because the man just looks like that, which mechanically already works for a disjointed-spacing playstyle. Some ”crude” animations (A Down Smash kick that buries opponents, a showy spike on Down Air) and potentially some off-kilter hitboxes like WFT and Waluigi can set himself apart from others even without potential Specials. That’s not even talking his mobility stats too, which could be an extrapolation of Luigi’s, with ridiculous vertical jumps and just no traction. Just look at his Assist Trophy: Yes, his weapon is a tennis racket, but he’s volatile and cartoonishly aggressive and completely unafraid to kick someone while they’re down.

These Specials can probably be your average Sports/Party/Kart equipment, sure, but starting Waluigi moveset discussion with “He can represent the sports series” or “He should be the spinoff character” is a flawed frame because, aside from “Mario Party = Random BS Go”, these starting points don’t translate to much gameplay-wise and are merely visual.
 

Laniv

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So guys, what do you guys think of the state of the Star Fox franchise? What's the future look like?

DK is at least getting ports and F-Zero finally got a game.

Is Star Fox just **** outta luck?
It ain't looking good. Seemingly, nobody at Nintendo has any clue what to do with Star Fox, and they end up just redoing 64 again. What the series needs is a breath of fresh air, with either younger devs in-house, or with someone from the outside, like with Metroid Prime
 

SPEN18

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Really?? Well, I haven't gotten the crowns on ANY of those entry points. I just figured I'd get them after Sonic and Tabuu were encountered...

So does this mean those crowns can come about BEFORE fighting Tabuu (and having Sonic join you)?
Ah, I think I see what you mean. Are there flags over the Great Maze entry points? If not, then yeah you may have to actually beat Tabuu to find out if you got everything. Unless you want to use a walkthrough and go through everything again manually to double check, which is...probably not worth it.
I don't know if 96% is the correct number, but you might not be able to tell even from that because I think each gold box might be worth <1% on its own? But I don't know for sure.

Sadly this may be as much as I can help, since it's been well over a decade since I did this. Maybe someone else knows a way.
 

CannonStreak

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Geno’s popularity I think is partially an exponent of survivor’s bias: At the end of Smash Ultimate’s lifespan he was probably one of the most requested characters, but that’s partially because his Mii Costume returning didn’t put him out of his misery until Sepiroth. Geno had the advantage of a fanbase eager to speculate and the momentum that entailed. Compared to other high-popularity characters like Skull Kid, Ashley, Krystal and Isaac, whose discussion and speculation was shut down in the early days of Ultimate speculation, Geno’s suspicious absence allowed his speculation to snowball in a field where similar characters got thrown in the Assist Trophy abyss. Still, Geno’s factors have never been logical, and all he really needs are Sakurai willing to play ball (he is, on the record, multiple times). Anything else is just extra.

The fact that Waluigi was one of those and still revived himself in the discussion is the true testament to his popularity, although part of his popularity was because he was so memetically shot down at first sight. In a field where it wasn’t realistic or feasible to discuss the chances of Ashley, Skull Kid, Isaac and others, Geno soared comparatively, but once the field is truly wide open again and everyone is on the table, Geno might not be the frontrunner so clearly.

Waluigi’s moveset isn’t too hard to construct thanks to his gangly frame and exaggerated animations in the Mario series: Even the most basic move archetypes (Your flip kick Up Air, a bicycle kick Up Smash, a leg sweep Down Tilt) would already be unique for Waluigi because the man just looks like that, which mechanically already works for a disjointed-spacing playstyle. Some ”crude” animations (A Down Smash kick that buries opponents, a showy spike on Down Air) and potentially some off-kilter hitboxes like WFT and Waluigi can set himself apart from others even without potential Specials. That’s not even talking his mobility stats too, which could be an extrapolation of Luigi’s, with ridiculous vertical jumps and just no traction. Just look at his Assist Trophy: Yes, his weapon is a tennis racket, but he’s volatile and cartoonishly aggressive and completely unafraid to kick someone while they’re down.

These Specials can probably be your average Sports/Party/Kart equipment, sure, but starting Waluigi moveset discussion with “He can represent the sports series” or “He should be the spinoff character” is a flawed frame because, aside from “Mario Party = Random BS Go”, these starting points don’t translate to much gameplay-wise and are merely visual.
I was not really talking about Waluigi, and you should see my last post here on this thread. Still, I do think he has one thing in common with Banjo and Kazooie as well as K. Rool. While these characters got into different circumstances, they all had not been in a game for a long time, with Banjo and Kazooie not starring in a major one and K. Rool not being a villain. Geno was, in a way, important in his game. Anyway, not counting the remake of SMRPG, which should still help some, Geno has not appeared in a game in a long time, especially one where he had importance.

BUT, he is not high on on my expectations list, and I can do without him. So it is a matter of if Sakurai still wants him.
 

Louie G.

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I think Geno has a decent chance by virtue of his lasting popularity and the fact that he is no longer as irrelevant or unknown as people said he was. Mario RPG getting a remake, and one that has seen a good deal of success, is hands down the best thing that could have happened to him.

Of course though, he'll never been the "most likely" Mario character simply because he needs to play by his own set of rules. He isn't owned by Nintendo, and he's not as easy of a sell within the core Mario brand. Someone like Waluigi, Toad, Pauline or even fringe picks like King Boo or Kamek do not have this issue. And it's not inherently an issue, it doesn't mean he can't get in, but we have to consider why Mario characters keep getting added in the first place. These are the characters anyone will recognize, and fans of Nintendo no matter how casual can get excited about joining the fray.

Geno appeals to a different demographic - he targets hardcore Smash fans and those concerned with the stranger avenues of Mario's history. I think that's valuable too, and I understand the appeal, but it's decidedly a different appeal. So I think if Geno gets in it's really not in competition with any of these other Mario characters, he should really kinda be judged as his own beast. If he makes it, I'm certain one or more of the aforementioned characters does too.
 
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Gorgonzales

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So guys, what do you guys think of the state of the Star Fox franchise? What's the future look like?

DK is at least getting ports and F-Zero finally got a game.

Is Star Fox just **** outta luck?
For Star Fox to succeed it needs to stop retelling 64 and stop pushing quirky "~different!~" control schemes that nobody likes.
 
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WeirdChillFever

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I was not really talking about Waluigi, and you should see my last post here on this thread. Still, I do think he has one thing in common with Banjo and Kazooie as well as K. Rool. While these characters got into different circumstances, they all had not been in a game for a long time, with Banjo and Kazooie not starring in a major one and K. Rool not being a villain. Geno was, in a way, important in his game. Anyway, not counting the remake of SMRPG, which should still help some, Geno has not appeared in a game in a long time, especially one where he had importance.

BUT, he is not high on on my expectations list, and I can do without him. So it is a matter of if Sakurai still wants him.
I know you didn’t talk about Waluigi but I wanted to talk about Waluigi in general. The whole spiel about Waluigi in my post wasn’t aimed at you specifically. I can take or leave both Geno and Waluigi, but did want to weigh in with some musings on both.

Unrelated to that, I also saw Pauline discussed, who does have a clear case of disjointed moveset potential: The whole Jump Up Superstar spiel doesn’t appear in Mario vs DK or the original Donkey Kong, the Mini Marios don’t appear in Odyssey or the original Donkey Kong, so what’s left are visual trappings of the original arcade game which arguably could be better represented by adding Cranky Kong and letting him toss some barrels.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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A fun idea I've had bouncing off the "cheater" motif would be a variant of SSF2's neutral special for him, but instead of being Judge as a projectile, the random effects are all balanced relative to each other. The twist? The Dice Block is loaded, and you're able to either influence, or assure a specific effect from the projectile. How exactly, I'm not entire sure, but maybe something like :GCUL: is always 1, :GCL: is always 2, :GCDL: is always 3, :GCUR: is always 4, :GCR: is always 5,
:GCDR: is always 6, and :GCN: is random (assuming Waluigi is facing left).
 

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There's one important factor you're ignoring:
Sakurai actually wants Geno. And he thinks Waluigi is just an internet joke.

A bajillion 3P characters?

It's also okay to be right when everyone else is wrong.
The claim that "Sakurai thinks people only support Waluigi ironically" is literally a baseless claim by internet trolls that was taken as gospel uncritically. Sakurai literally never said that.
 

CannonStreak

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I know you didn’t talk about Waluigi but I wanted to talk about Waluigi in general. The whole spiel about Waluigi in my post wasn’t aimed at you specifically. I can take or leave both Geno and Waluigi, but did want to weigh in with some musings on both.

Unrelated to that, I also saw Pauline discussed, who does have a clear case of disjointed moveset potential: The whole Jump Up Superstar spiel doesn’t appear in Mario vs DK or the original Donkey Kong, the Mini Marios don’t appear in Odyssey or the original Donkey Kong, so what’s left are visual trappings of the original arcade game which arguably could be better represented by adding Cranky Kong and letting him toss some barrels.
Okay then. I understand. Thanks for explaining.

Since we are talking Geno, here is a question to you all: If Geno DOES get into the next Smash Bros. game, but is not in any of the games after, or appears every number of games or so as in on or off, how would you feel about that? Unless he is in a new game after the next Smash Bros., I can see that he would be cut in future Smash games after him possibly being playable in one.
 

CannonStreak

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The claim that "Sakurai thinks people only support Waluigi ironically" is literally a baseless claim by internet trolls that was taken as gospel uncritically. Sakurai literally never said that.
Pardon me, but now that you said that, I wish to make something clear: While I did bring up what DarthEnderX said recent, I said something along the lines of @assuming that was the case”. As I was not sure about that, and even I have my doubts on that.

I just wanted to be clear to everyone here.
 
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Dinoman96

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To be honest...regardless of what he said, I honestly do have to somewhat question how much Sakurai actually wanted to add Geno considering the guy got passed over for not one (:ultcloud:), not two (:ulthero::ulthero2::ulthero3::ulthero4:) but three (:ultsephiroth:) different Square-Enix owned characters. Doesn't seem like he was actually that huge of a priority. Even Banjo-Kazooie were the very first characters we got from Microsoft, over bigger picks such as Minecraft Steve and Master Chief.

Of course, all of this was before the Mario RPG remake. It really feels like it's truly do or die for Geno the next Smash.
 
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