Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Noipoi]

We've briefly talked about voice acting in Smash 6 before, like Kevin Afghani being cast as the Mario Bros and Wario, or the voice actors from TOTK taking over if Zelda and Ganondorf are updated to match their appearances in that game.

What we haven't touched upon is the announcer, who's a huge part of every Smash game. Do you think they'll cast a new one to enter the upcoming era, or has Xander Mobus become the Smash Bros announcer? Moreover, are there any new announcer-related features you'd like to see, such as a female announcer or actual characters as optional narrators? (Mario, Pit, Sonic, Snake could probably work)

I feel like they’ll keep Xander Mobus around. He’s a young dude, he ain’t going anywhere. And his take on the announcer specifically has become iconic.

 

[CannonStreak]

Well if Joker comes back, Xander Mobus could come back as the announcer, since Xander voices Joker.

If not, they can make the new announcer also voice Joker.

 

[Perkilator]

Something I was curious about after the Raven Beak discussion. What are your thoughts and opinions on recent video game villains? Like obviously, when we talk about video game villains for Smash, we talk about some of the obvious ones like Marx, Dark Matter, Black Shadow, Porky Minch, Giygas, FE's Black Knight, Medusa, Dr. Eggman, Dr. Wily, Albert Wesker, Nemesis, Pyramid Head, Akuma, M.Bison, Ansem/Xemnas/Xehanort, and all the villains in Smash Bros now. But out of the ones we talk about, only Raven Beak, KI:U's Hades, Octavio and in some contexts, Edelgard are the only recent video game villains we really talk about. And we don't really mention newer 3rd Party villains.

It's not that we haven't gotten recent villains that have been received positively, but do you think newer video game villains in general have been getting weaker in terms of memorability and impressions? Or do you think it's possibly just a case of nostalgia for the classic villains overshadowing the impressions from newer villains in comparison?

Magolor's one villain I started to support after playing Magolor Epilogue, to the point where I want both him and BWD as the next Kirby newcomers in the next Smash game.

 

[Guynamednelson]

And his take on the announcer specifically has become iconic.

Feels more like it'd be Pat Cashman's, since Xander seems like he's trying to imitate Cashman rather than doing his own spin on a Smash announcer.

 

[Gorgonzales]

What we haven't touched upon is the announcer, who's a huge part of every Smash game. Do you think they'll cast a new one to enter the upcoming era, or has Xander Mobus become the Smash Bros announcer? Moreover, are there any new announcer-related features you'd like to see, such as a female announcer or actual characters as optional narrators? (Mario, Pit, Sonic, Snake could probably work)

I think they'll get a new guy to be the announcer for the next game.

I like Xander, but I also like every game (except Ultimate) having a unique announcer. It helps set each title apart, and I like hearing how each announcer goes about saying the names of the cast.

 

[superprincess]

I feel like they’ll keep Xander Mobus around. He’s a young dude, he ain’t going anywhere. And his take on the announcer specifically has become iconic.

I just hate any instance of recycled voice lines. If he sticks around, they should rerecord the character callouts at least.

Speaking of... not to beat a dead horse, but some of these Brawl (and even 64/Melee!) era voices are getting so old. I truly hope they pull a Mario Wonder and rerecord everyone's lines, not a single reused line.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Call me nostalgic but I just want Mario to get his Melee/Mario 64 voice back.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I just hate any instance of recycled voice lines. If he sticks around, they should rerecord the character callouts at least.

Speaking of... not to beat a dead horse, but some of these Brawl (and even 64/Melee!) era voices are getting so old. I truly hope they pull a Mario Wonder and rerecord everyone's lines, not a single reused line.

Agreed. This is a specific nitpick I always felt like Mario and Wario should have longer screams for their standard KO clips, it's weird how their current ones are barely audible grunts. It's bizarre how these two characters known for their goofy yells flat-out don't have them here. The fact that we're still using Martinet's low-energy Brawl voice clips doesn't help.

Kevin as Mario is great but good lord I hope they find another guy for Wario, because Move It proved that a Kevin Wario doesn't really work. I hope Nintendo is still experimenting with their voices right now and Move It is just an oddity, kind of like how some N64-era titles would have Juilen Bardakoff doing Luigi's voice before they ultimately settled on Martinet.

 

[Noipoi]

and I like hearing how each announcer goes about saying the names of the cast.

Like that one guy who clearly hates Ganondorf

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Recycled voicelines aren't bad if they still fit.

Being "old" is never an issue. Being "outdated " and "unfitting" is.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Like that one guy who clearly hates Ganondorf

I'd be disappointed too if I knew he'd be stuck with the Falcondorf moveset forever.

 

[Louie G.]

I definitely want to hear some new voice lines, but I want new victory themes even more. I don't know, it's arbitrary but I'd just have liked them to keep a routine of refreshing them every game. The Brawl ones are fine in a vacuum but I've grown tired of hearing them three games in a row.

And there are some that I never liked that continue to grate on me that much further. Come on, we still have the Sonic 06 victory jingle? At least swap that out for the Sonic Adventure or Generations one if we can't have a Smash original version for some reason.

 

[ScrubReborn]

We've briefly talked about voice acting in Smash 6 before, like Kevin Afghani being cast as the Mario Bros and Wario, or the voice actors from TOTK taking over if Zelda and Ganondorf are updated to match their appearances in that game.

What we haven't touched upon is the announcer, who's a huge part of every Smash game. Do you think they'll cast a new one to enter the upcoming era, or has Xander Mobus become the Smash Bros announcer? Moreover, are there any new announcer-related features you'd like to see, such as a female announcer or actual characters as optional narrators? (Mario, Pit, Sonic, Snake could probably work)

I feel like most of the reason Xander stuck around for Ultimate was as a time/cost saving measure (cause Ult did a lot of that) and they prolly woulda just replaced him otherwise.

That being said he's probably become the most iconic Smash announcer because of it so that might help him stick around. I have no opinion myself. I would prefer to see someone else's take after a decade of Xander but it's not like Xander's clips don't still work.

A female announcer would be interesting (I remember a old Smash fangame had one). Though something to keep in mind is that it seems to be a tradition the announcer also voices Master/Crazy Hand (something I feel should stick, I like the idea Master Hand is the announcer), so doubt we'll get a female announcer for that reason. Unless Smash 6 decides to genderswap Master and Crazy Hand? Now I kinda wanna see that tbh.

I feel like they’ll keep Xander Mobus around. He’s a young dude, he ain’t going anywhere. And his take on the announcer specifically has become iconic.

TBF that's Pat Cashman's take lol. I like Xander but he's really just running off Pat's blueprint.

(Oh I got'd)

And there are some that I never liked that continue to grate on me that much further. Come on, we still have the Sonic 06 victory jingle? At least swap that out for the Sonic Adventure or Generations one if we can't have a Smash original version for some reason.

For that matter, why in the **** does Ganondorf still use the heroic main Zelda victory theme? Give him his own already man. If SSF2 can give him his own, Sakurai sure can too.

 

[Noipoi]

MARIO
WARIO
LUCARIO

 

[Swamp Sensei]

ARMS has a really cool antagonist in Dr. Coyle

Man this just reminded me just how cool ARMS and it's cast are.

Do you guys really think we'll never get another ARMS game?

 

[Noipoi]

Man this just reminded me just how cool ARMS and it's cast are.

Do you guys really think we'll never get another ARMS game?

I never say never. But I’m not sure when we’ll see the next one. It seems like the franchise didn’t take off in the way Nintendo might’ve wanted it to.

With that said, maybe it’s a once per console kinda thing. Maybe ARMS 2: LEG DAY will drop with the next system.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Man this just reminded me just how cool ARMS and it's cast are.

Do you guys really think we'll never get another ARMS game?

It could get a new game, it could also not get a new game.
Depends on how the Switch Attach works.

 

[Ivander]

And then not much else - most long standing series have either stayed with their tried and true villains (Mario, Zelda) or have introduced new ones which are compelling, but will likely not stick around past one game (Metroid, Kirby, Fire Emblem). With that in mind it's not hard to see why discussion favors older villains, the ones who have proven longevity and prevalence in their series.

Quick note about third party villains, but the community struggles at times to acknowledge third party series made within the last 15 years, so naturally we're not going to see much talk of antagonists for those series either. I think the most notable option here may be a Dark Souls boss, if they felt someone like Artorias was more compelling than Chosen Undead or Solaire. Otherwise the major third parties looking at additional representation would be longstanding series, like Sonic, Street Fighter, Final Fantasy and so forth. This is less of an issue of games not creating memorable villains vs many series not having a playable character in Smash yet, and protagonists traditionally coming first.

I kinda meant as a whole in regards to villains and not so much in a Smash sense. Like I understand why the Smash fanbase gravitates towards older villains, but I'm more so curious on what people think about more recent villains in general and not so much in a Smash Bros. sense. Like, to make it a bit more clear, while I've been liking alot of Capcom's newer games, one of the things I've been somewhat disappointed by is their newer villains.
While the RE7 and RE8 villains are fun, they're best as a group, but not so much themselves. Urizen from DMC5 felt boring and it didn't help he wasn't exactly a new villain since he came from Vergil who split himself into V and Urizen, and eventually Vergil hijacks later. The newer Street Fighter villains don't impress me much. I haven't played Dragon's Dogma 2 yet and for the most part, Monster Hunters' monsters are still fun and cool, but obviously not villains in the traditional sense.
I think RE7 and RE8 show that they have the potential to make good villains, but the former's villains for the most part were controlled while the latter villains did not have enough screentime aside from Lady Dimitrescu and Heisenberg. And as mentioned, they felt best as a group rather than by themselves.

Which brings to the Dark Souls bosses. While they can be considered antagonists, most of them were were not villains, since most of them are fought when they are possessed or driven crazy. Artorias is definitely the biggest example as his lore and data in the game shows Artorias was clearly not a villain, so I would not consider him or them villains in the same vein as Eggman, Wesker, Pyramid Head, etc.
---
But anyway, my main question in general was asking about how people felt about more recent villains in general rather than more recent villains chances regarding Smash Bros. Like, do some of you think more recent villains feel weaker in impressing and memorability compared to older villains? Or do you think that's more nostalgia making the older villains just look better compared to newer villains?

Man this just reminded me just how cool ARMS and it's cast are.

Do you guys really think we'll never get another ARMS game?

I'm not one to assume, so I don't think another ARMS game is impossible. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason another ARMS game hasn't happened yet is because last time I checked, it was the Mario Kart 8 team who made ARMS and they're likely busy on the next Mario Kart.

 

[fogbadge]

Man this just reminded me just how cool ARMS and it's cast are.

Do you guys really think we'll never get another ARMS game?

well I would have said the same about another code or big brain academy so I’m unwilling to rule anything out

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Aside from Raven Break I can't think of many newer Nintendo villains that have really impressed me. To be honest I even found TotK's Ganondorf somewhat disappointing.

But I also think that the most iconic Nintendo villains are all already playable in Smash, with maybe the exception of Skull Kid/Majora (and Andross, of course, but he's not workable).
I agree that Splatoon would warrant getting its villain. Something from Pikmin would be nice but I'm not sure that's workable. Is Louie a villain? I feel like he kinda is. But he's not really new anymore.

Would still love Porky.

 

[Ivander]

But I also think that the most iconic Nintendo villains are all already playable in Smash, with maybe the exception of Skull Kid/Majora (and Andross, of course, but he's not workable).

Didn't they give Andross a body in Star Fox Zero? Like you still fight him as the head and hands, but I thought they gave him a model where he has a normal body?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Didn't they give Andross a body in Star Fox Zero? Like you still fight him as the head and hands, but I thought they gave him a model where he has a normal body?

Not exactly.
It's just a coat.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Didn't they give Andross a body in Star Fox Zero? Like you still fight him as the head and hands, but I thought they gave him a model where he has a normal body?

I'm not sure if that's just an artwork or if it actually appears in the game.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I'm not sure if that's just an artwork or if it actually appears in the game.

There's a model in the data.

But like I said, there actually isn't a body underneath; it's just a wardrobe with cables.

 

[Louie G.]

Magolor clears Marx in every way possible. Popularity, relevancy, significance to Kirby as a franchise, role in the game he's from, and his boss fight.

I'm gonna waste my time a bit and defend Marx's honor, because really I feel like part of the community has adopted unnecessary negativity toward the character as a projection of the lack of modern representation. But Marx is worth his merit, was a good choice for a Smash boss and has very obvious appeal.

I've been a fan of Marx ever since I played Super Star Ultra over 15 years ago. His design was so striking and colorful, his underhandedness was compelling and his boss battle sticks with you forever. It's no surprise then that he has been the blueprint for Kirby bosses for over 25 years. Lack of significance is a hard thing to argue when, Sakurai or not, the Kirby series is notorious for retooling elements of Marx's battle in just about every climax to follow (gotta love that cutter move). I really really like Magolor, but Marx doesn't deserve this amount of disrespect because there is no Magolor without Marx.

Personally, I do not think Magolor clears Marx in terms of sheer moveset potential. What other Smash fighter can roll around on a ball and split himself in two? How many characters have potentially three different states of mobility - rolling on a ball, waddling around and flight? Many of the most notable things Magolor can do, Marx can do equally well. They're both tricksters, they both possess insane magic / cosmic powers. I'd love for both of them to be playable in Smash, but let's not pretend Marx doesn't have a slew of amazing tricks up his sleeve to make for a compelling fighter.

His role? Sure, I can agree with that. Magolor is what you'd get if Marx was a consistent presence throughout an entire game. Marx is simply an asset of one subgame within a greater picture - he is the climactic final bout of that game, but that attention is distributed across several stories. The two have also evolved in different ways. Magolor is a character who is repenting for his sins, working his way back up from his betrayal to gain Kirby's trust. It's a compelling background narrative for the character. Marx is still a little ****, as far as we're aware. I don't even know how he's still alive. Both angles have their appeal but Magolor definitely has more thought put into his development as a character.

Who do I think is a more productive addition to Smash? Magolor, easily. His persistence is commendable in a series that is quick to sideline many of their memorable characters in the next entry. While he hasn't had the most prominent role since RTDL, it's more than most others can say for themselves. I think Marx is doing an excellent job in his current role as a boss. I would still love to see him playable one day, but it's a great homage to just how impactful that battle has been for both Kirby and Smash bosses since and allows Sakurai to innovate with brand new ideas. I'll admit all this, but I just don't like seeing Marx treated as this scapegoat character or having his significance be undermined. He is a character I've loved since the moment I fought him for the first time and have supported for Smash before I had any clue how that could even work. I'm not going to let that be muddled by the current state of things.

 

[7NATOR]

I kinda meant as a whole in regards to villains and not so much in a Smash sense. Like I understand why the Smash fanbase gravitates towards older villains, but I'm more so curious on what people think about more recent villains in general and not so much in a Smash Bros. sense. Like, to make it a bit more clear, while I've been liking alot of Capcom's newer games, one of the things I've been somewhat disappointed by is their newer villains.
While the RE7 and RE8 villains are fun, they're best as a group, but not so much themselves. Urizen from DMC5 felt boring and it didn't help he wasn't exactly a new villain since he came from Vergil who split himself into V and Urizen, and eventually Vergil hijacks later. The newer Street Fighter villains don't impress me much. I haven't played Dragon's Dogma 2 yet and for the most part, Monster Hunters' monsters are still fun and cool, but obviously not villains in the traditional sense.
I think RE7 and RE8 show that they have the potential to make good villains, but the former's villains for the most part were controlled while the latter villains did not have enough screentime aside from Lady Dimitrescu and Heisenberg. And as mentioned, they felt best as a group rather than by themselves.

Which brings to the Dark Souls bosses. While they can be considered antagonists, most of them were were not villains, since most of them are fought when they are possessed or driven crazy. Artorias is definitely the biggest example as his lore and data in the game shows Artorias was clearly not a villain, so I would not consider him or them villains in the same vein as Eggman, Wesker, Pyramid Head, etc.
---
But anyway, my main question in general was asking about how people felt about more recent villains in general rather than more recent villains chances regarding Smash Bros. Like, do some of you think more recent villains feel weaker in impressing and memorability compared to older villains? Or do you think that's more nostalgia making the older villains just look better compared to newer villains?

I'm not one to assume, so I don't think another ARMS game is impossible. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason another ARMS game hasn't happened yet is because last time I checked, it was the Mario Kart 8 team who made ARMS and they're likely busy on the next Mario Kart.

I think there's multitude of factors in regards to recent villains not leaving as much of a mark

-Alot of the current biggest games are the market might not even have villains per say, as they might be multiplayer focused, without much story
-The Villains themselves today might not get as much screen time, or time to interact with your character, even then They might also just not be charismatic villains in the short time they might have
-There's less New I.P's, at least in the A Gaming Sphere, so less chances of coming across cool villains
-It might be harder to gain a big spotlight on your game that might have a cool villain because it's really niche, in a time were there's more games out there than ever before (counting indies)
-They just aren't as good as the villains before. They might just suck
-Not as much "actually evil" Villains these days, or the evil actions might not be as plentiful, or acknowledged
-Instead of more Villains, we might have anti Hero characters
-Alot of villains might be such because they are more an obstacle to overcome, and not because they are opposing ideals
-Alot of the best villains might be ones from more "realistic games", or ones that have more movie cinematic presentation. They might also be from games where it's an adaptation of already existing media (Like Superhero games)
-They just might not have many appearances yet, they aren't re-occurring


I do think there are some recent villains that have stuck in the hearts of Gamers, or at least fans of their particular franchises. Edelgard for Fire Emblem, Springtrap from FNAF, Monokuma and Junko from Danganronpa to name a few, but whether in notoriety, I don't think they can yet compare to long established villains like Bowser, M. Bison, Eggman, and Sephiroth

 

[Perkilator]

What fun side modes do you guys wanna see in the next game? For me:

• Shine Thief
• Volleyball
• Tag
• Coin Battles

 

[Ivander]

There's a model in the data.

But like I said, there actually isn't a body underneath; it's just a wardrobe with cables.

To be fair, the idea of a mad scientist who's lost most of their body and under their coat could be an HR Gigar-esque body of body horror and moving tentacle-like cables would be raw for a Nintendo character.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Man this just reminded me just how cool ARMS and it's cast are.

Do you guys really think we'll never get another ARMS game?

Compared to the Splatoon games, there's been a pretty big gap between ARMS' release and a potential sequel.

Despite that, the game still seems like it was a pretty big success. Most of the characters were popular, the gameplay is fun and seems well-received enough, and it did get a comic/manga adaptation IIRC (albeit, one that's been left unfinished), plus it released fairly early in the Switch's lifespan. So all the groundwork for a potential sequel is there, there just...hasn't been any announcement or known development of one.

It's been an incredibly long time since we've heard anything about the franchise barring Min-Min's inclusion in Ultimate's DLC, and the gap between the game and any potential sequel is already pretty long. The game getting a sequel on Nintendo's next console certainly isn't off the table, but I find it odd that the franchise has has gone several years without any major new content outside of Smash Ultimate.

 

[7NATOR]

What fun side modes do you guys wanna see in the next game? For me:

• Shine Thief
• Volleyball
• Tag
• Coin Battles

I would like to see the Last 2 here. A Tag Mode I assume would work more Similar to the Tekken Tag games in that you might have different health (different percents in Smash context) but one character getting Ko'd means you lose the round (or Stock).

I also think that the Switch 2 should be able to handle it. One thing I also would like to see is if Assist Characters could be allowed in this tag mode, so they have more of a role to play in the game instead of having a 1/59 chance of showing up randomly, and fans of characters that get Assist won't be at as much of a loss

Coin Battles coming back would be cool, especially if they do want to have Tom Nook in the game, he should be allowed to thrive in a mode that's all about getting the most money

While not a Side Mode per say, one option I do want to see come back is the ability to beat on the corpses of defeated players. I understand why Characters just explode now in Stamina mode since you can have stocks in Stamina mode, But If on only 1 stock, I would like the option to keep the corpses on the battlefield.

 

[dream1ng]

You can make nitpicks like this for nearly any new Nintendo character at this point though.

Comparing Raven Beak to protagonists and major recurring characters aren't "nitpicks", they're why he doesn't fit your examples.

Like, at some point a new character inherently just will not be as requested or have as much history with their franchise as older ones obviously. As more characters get added, smaller franchises will get more characters than what is needed to "represent them" properly or whatever.

I agree with this - but it's not going to go Mario -> Metroid. Just as Smash takes from the biggest (feasible, active) Nintendo IPs available and roughly works its way down (barring unique spots Raven Beak wouldn't fit), the obvious next series to take from its b/c-tier cast would be Zelda. Not Metroid.

And the Zelda b-tier characters encapsulate all your points for Raven Beak, but better. They're generally more popular, Zelda is bigger and the characters are more well-known, some of the b-tier actually recurs (basically all of it, if you count spin-offs), Dread did well for Metroid but Zelda just had two games which performed seven and eleven times better. Also, Metroid just got two new characters, Zelda hasn't had one since Brawl.

Yea metroid is not a big series, but it feels stupid to be dismissive of adding a new character from a Nintendo series that just just had its biggest game ever.

First, Dread can be represented without a newcomer. Second, Dread will have its protagonist playable. Third, this could be said of many series because of the Switch effect. Again, it would apply better to Zelda, Kirby, Splatoon and AC, all of whom have a more generally popular character and are considered below how represented they could be. It even applies better to Pikmin.

Lets also not act like ZSS and Dark Samus are amazing Metroid reps that actually represent anything meaningful from the games. Both could easily get the axe in the next game.

Good luck with Sakurai, the guy who's opinion actually counts, agreeing that any character is effectively a bad choice.

Also idk what you're on about with this not meaningful representation: Dark Samus is Metroid Prime, the namesake of and the main recurring antagonist to the entire sub-series.

Rather than comparing him to other characters already in Smash, compare him with other characters people are asking to be added. Among Nintendo characters it's not like he is THAT unlikely. Like, the obvious favorites are long time requests that haven't made it in yet. Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, Waluigi (ew), Toad maybe.

After that he's in the mix with the other newer characters/requests like a new pokemon, Totk/Botw character, Octolings/Splatoon character, Tom Nook, Noah/Mio ect.

Ok.
He's far less requested than Waluigi, BWD and Isaac.
He's a one-off villain unlike protagonists like RFT or Akira Howard.
He's not a recurring major character like Dixie, Toad, Octoling, BWD or Tom Nook. All of whom come from bigger series.
He's a one-off from a moderately successful series like Metroid instead of a one-off from a blockbuster, AAA series like Zelda.
He's not from a series that gets promotional inclusions like Pokemon, FE or Xenoblade.
His (mid-size) series just doubled in count, which makes it unlikely they would be priority for another character. Unlike Zelda or Kirby.
Metroid having four characters is completely in line with its size/success. It's in no way underrepresented. Again, decreasing chances of priority.

Any positive he has, another option eclipses him.

Yea you can argue all the characters I listed have better cases than him, but I wouldn't say a lot of them are THAT much better.

I would. Your argument is literally that the level of character inclusion changes, it bypasses all the stronger cases, and among all the possible characters that could favor, it will be Raven Beak. So that entails the methodology deviating, selective omission and extreme luck.

None of those other characters need anything to change. They still need luck, but they can get in based on existing parameters.

 

[Perkilator]

I would like to see the Last 2 here. A Tag Mode I assume would work more Similar to the Tekken Tag games in that you might have different health (different percents in Smash context) but one character getting Ko'd means you lose the round (or Stock).

I also think that the Switch 2 should be able to handle it. One thing I also would like to see is if Assist Characters could be allowed in this tag mode, so they have more of a role to play in the game instead of having a 1/59 chance of showing up randomly, and fans of characters that get Assist won't be at as much of a loss

I meant Tag as it’s displayed in the Akaneia Build mod for Melee, where a tagged player has a timer before they self-destruct.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

On Raven Beak, people are missing the biggest point when they keep comparing him to Skull Kid, Midna, whoever.


Smash's rosters are for the majority contemporary.
Metroid Dread happened after Smash Ultimate's release, meaning content from the game will happen in the next Smash. This puts Raven Beak or E.M.M.I. or whatever at a point that does not apply to Zelda's "popular" one-offs.

Their "window" had long since come and gone and unlike someone like K. Rool or Dark Samus, clearly did not have the notable backing on the Ballot to help matters (and how could they, when people couldn't actually settle on a specific character and just cycle through a bunch of token "New Zelda RRRRRREP!" options?).


This doesn't mean Raven Beak is likely; not what I'm saying at all.
I'm saying that the situations do not match whatsoever and you can't use one series' case for here.



I could get into more onto how timing was rigged against certain Zelda characters from the start, but my lunch break is over.

 

[kirbstr]

I'm gonna waste my time a bit and defend Marx's honor, because really I feel like part of the community has adopted unnecessary negativity toward the character as a projection of the lack of modern representation. But Marx is worth his merit, was a good choice for a Smash boss and has very obvious appeal.

I've been a fan of Marx ever since I played Super Star Ultra over 15 years ago. His design was so striking and colorful, his underhandedness was compelling and his boss battle sticks with you forever. It's no surprise then that he has been the blueprint for Kirby bosses for over 25 years. Lack of significance is a hard thing to argue when, Sakurai or not, the Kirby series is notorious for retooling elements of Marx's battle in just about every climax to follow (gotta love that cutter move). I really really like Magolor, but Marx doesn't deserve this amount of disrespect because there is no Magolor without Marx.

Personally, I do not think Magolor clears Marx in terms of sheer moveset potential. What other Smash fighter can roll around on a ball and split himself in two? How many characters have potentially three different states of mobility - rolling on a ball, waddling around and flight? Many of the most notable things Magolor can do, Marx can do equally well. They're both tricksters, they both possess insane magic / cosmic powers. I'd love for both of them to be playable in Smash, but let's not pretend Marx doesn't have a slew of amazing tricks up his sleeve to make for a compelling fighter.

His role? Sure, I can agree with that. Magolor is what you'd get if Marx was a consistent presence throughout an entire game. Marx is simply an asset of one subgame within a greater picture - he is the climactic final bout of that game, but that attention is distributed across several stories. The two have also evolved in different ways. Magolor is a character who is repenting for his sins, working his way back up from his betrayal to gain Kirby's trust. It's a compelling background narrative for the character. Marx is still a little ****, as far as we're aware. I don't even know how he's still alive. Both angles have their appeal but Magolor definitely has more thought put into his development as a character.

Who do I think is a more productive addition to Smash? Magolor, easily. His persistence is commendable in a series that is quick to sideline many of their memorable characters in the next entry. While he hasn't had the most prominent role since RTDL, it's more than most others can say for themselves. I think Marx is doing an excellent job in his current role as a boss. I would still love to see him playable one day, but it's a great homage to just how impactful that battle has been for both Kirby and Smash bosses since and allows Sakurai to innovate with brand new ideas. I'll admit all this, but I just don't like seeing Marx treated as this scapegoat character or having his significance be undermined. He is a character I've loved since the moment I fought him for the first time and have supported for Smash before I had any clue how that could even work. I'm not going to let that be muddled by the current state of things.

Yes, Marx is an important villain to the Kirby franchise. As you said there would be no Magolor without Marx.

That said, I would not call Marx the "bluprint for Kirby bosses for the last 25 years". That would be Nightmare. And he has been the blueprint for the last 30 years.

Many of Marx's own moves were re-toolings of other moves from bosses in Super Star and a reimagining of Nightmare's attacks. The cutter attack you mentioned actually originated from Nightmare, only he used stars instead. Hell, the lead up to Marx's battle is incredibly similar to Nightmare, with a flying sequence through space that uses different combat than the normal gameplay. Obviously in Super Star it is reimagined into a much cooler sequence but the idea is clearly based on Adventure's final boss.

If we are talking about more recent inspiration, a lot of modern Kirby bosses also take a lot of inspiration from Drawcia and Dark Mind (Who himself takes inspiration from Dark Matter and Zero). The whole "soul" boss concept started with Drawcia, including Marx Soul. Most of Marx Soul's new moves are nearly identical to Drawcia Soul's.

Like, I would also love for Marx to be in Smash and as a boss he works fine, but he would probably be out of my top 5 when it comes to potential Kirby newcomers. Bandana Waddle Dee, Magolor, Goey, Adeline, Dark Matter, Galacta Knight, and even Susie would be better picks.

 

[Louie G.]

Many of Marx's own moves were re-toolings of other moves from bosses in Super Star and a reimagining of Nightmare's attacks. The cutter attack you mentioned actually originated from Nightmare, only he used stars instead. Hell, the lead up to Marx's battle is incredibly similar to Nightmare, with a flying sequence through space that uses different combat than the normal gameplay. Obviously in Super Star it is reimagined into a much cooler sequence but the idea is clearly based on Adventure's final boss.

Yeah, fair enough actually. I feel like Marx refined those details and ended up influencing things more directly later, but Nightmare is definitely the one that introduced many of those elements into the series. I associate his fight a bit more with the flying portion so that was an oversight on my end. In that respect he not only inspired the Marx-like battles that would follow but also the Zero-like ones. Good point about the Soul battles as well.

Like, I would also love for Marx to be in Smash and as a boss he works fine, but he would probably be out of my top 5 when it comes to potential Kirby newcomers. Bandana Waddle Dee, Magolor, Goey, Adeline, Galacta Knight, and even Susie would be better picks.

And yeah, that's fair enough too. I love so many of these characters and would be over the moon at any of them being added to the series. I just feel like Marx has received somewhat of stigma lately as some kind of worse-case-scenario of Sakurai bias instead of just appreciating the character in a vacuum. It could be way worse - at least he's a genuinely cool and well liked character. Saying Magolor had all these things over Marx in spades just didn't sit well with me, but I appreciate you giving your side of the argument.

 

[dream1ng]

On Raven Beak, people are missing the biggest point when they keep comparing him to Skull Kid, Midna, whoever.


Smash's rosters are for the majority contemporary.
Metroid Dread happened after Smash Ultimate's release, meaning content from the game will happen in the next Smash. This puts Raven Beak or E.M.M.I. or whatever at a point that does not apply to Zelda's "popular" one-offs.

Their "window" had long since come and gone and unlike someone like K. Rool or Dark Samus, clearly did not have the notable backing on the Ballot to help matters (and how could they, when people couldn't actually settle on a specific character and just cycle through a bunch of token "New Zelda RRRRRREP!" options?).


This doesn't mean Raven Beak is likely; not what I'm saying at all.
I'm saying that the situations do not match whatsoever and you can't use one series' case for here.



I could get into more onto how timing was rigged against certain Zelda characters from the start, but my lunch break is over.

Who said they were Skull Kid and Midna to whom I was referring?

I'm speaking of general popularity (I refer to the Zelda options as "generally more popular/general popularity" each time), not inherently fanbase popularity (i.e. not listing Skull Kid, Midna, etc. under the "more requested characters" with Waluigi, BWD and Isaac - the ones who could actually potentially get in). There are generally popular characters from the past two Zelda games, who are generally more popular than Raven Beak is.

 

[Sucumbio]

A villain AND an Indie let's have the Goose from Untitled Goose Game!

 

[kirbstr]

Comparing Raven Beak to protagonists and major recurring characters aren't "nitpicks", they're why he doesn't fit your examples.


I agree with this - but it's not going to go Mario -> Metroid. Just as Smash takes from the biggest (feasible, active) Nintendo IPs available and roughly works its way down (barring unique spots Raven Beak wouldn't fit), the obvious next series to take from its b/c-tier cast would be Zelda. Not Metroid.

And the Zelda b-tier characters encapsulate all your points for Raven Beak, but better. They're generally more popular, Zelda is bigger and the characters are more well-known, some of the b-tier actually recurs (basically all of it, if you count spin-offs), Dread did well for Metroid but Zelda just had two games which performed seven and eleven times better. Also, Metroid just got two new characters, Zelda hasn't had one since Brawl.

First, Dread can be represented without a newcomer. Second, Dread will have its protagonist playable. Third, this could be said of many series because of the Switch effect. Again, it would apply better to Zelda, Kirby, Splatoon and AC, all of whom have a more generally popular character and are considered below how represented they could be. It even applies better to Pikmin.

First of all: Zelda not having a new character since Brawl is more of an issue of timing than anything else. After Wind Waker (Toon Link) and Twilight Princess (which every Zelda character was updated to represent), the only major Zelda releases in between Brawl and the beginning of Smash 4's development were Spirit Tracks and Skyward Sword. Both got a ton of content in in Smash 4 despite neither selling well for Zelda. Girahim still was highly requested as a fighter and even made it as an assist Trophy.

Ultimate started development while BotW was also IN DEVELOPMENT. There was basically no chance for them to gauge what characters would have been popular or made for good inclusions. Link was still updated to match his BotW appearance and the game got a stage. I fully expect the next smash game to give BotW and TotK the kind of representation that Ocarina and Majora's Mask got in Melee.

I don't see why you're so dead set on this idea that Raven Beak is an impossibility because other bigger franchises have deserving characters too. You do realize that each new smash game adds like 15 new characters, right? I'm not against Zelda getting even 2-3 new characters in the next smash game given how massive BotW and TotK were. Animal Crossing, Splatoon, and Kirby should absolutely get new characters too. Hell, even Pikmin could get a new rep.

Yes, Dread can be represented without a fighter. That's what I expect actually. That still doesn't rule out Raven Beak from being considered or even making it as a fighter.

Good luck with Sakurai, the guy who's opinion actually counts, agreeing that any character is effectively a bad choice.

Also idk what you're on about with this not meaningful representation: Dark Samus is Metroid Prime, the namesake of and the main recurring antagonist to the entire sub-series.

ZSS is about as One-off of a character as Raven Beak and has nearly an entirely smash original move-set.

Dark Samus the character is meaningful represenation. Dark Samus In Smash isn't really. She's just a clone of samus. Which is kind of fitting, but Samus' moveset in Smash doesn't take much from Metroid Prime to begin with.

Ok.
He's far less requested than Waluigi, BWD and Isaac.
He's a one-off villain unlike protagonists like RFT or Akira Howard.
He's not a recurring major character like Dixie, Toad, Octoling, BWD or Tom Nook. All of whom come from bigger series.
He's a one-off from a moderately successful series like Metroid instead of a one-off from a blockbuster, AAA series like Zelda.
He's not from a series that gets promotional inclusions like Pokemon, FE or Xenoblade.
His (mid-size) series just doubled in count, which makes it unlikely they would be priority for another character. Unlike Zelda or Kirby.
Metroid having four characters is completely in line with its size/success. It's in no way underrepresented. Again, decreasing chances of priority.

Any positive he has, another option eclipses him.

A lot of the characters you listed here don't fit other criteria you listed though. It's silly to say that "any positive he has, another option eclipses him" when making comparisons in this way. All I'm saying is he has a decent chance given the timing and success of Dread.

 

[Oracle Link]

so doubt we'll get a female announcer for that reason. Unless Smash 6 decides to genderswap Master and Crazy Hand? Now I kinda wanna see that tbh.

How tf do you gender swap a hand? Nails i guess but i think those two hands should stay gloved!

...

What even is their gender arent they just a stand in for the player? Like they are the hand of the kid who plays with the smash toys right?
And that kid is the player right? I dunno!

And yeah, that's fair enough too. I love so many of these characters and would be over the moon at any of them being added to the series. I just feel like Marx has received somewhat of stigma lately as some kind of worse-case-scenario of Sakurai bias instead of just appreciating the character in a vacuum. It could be way worse - at least he's a genuinely cool and well liked character. Saying Magolor had all these things over Marx in spades just didn't sit well with me, but I appreciate you giving your side of the argument.

I guess marx is fun but character wise hes mostly surpassed by magolor
He does have cool abilitys But those require him to fly looking at his kirby moveset doesnt work unlike with magolor!
He has his elemental attacks and jester gimmick going for him but thats about it!

Aside from Raven Break I can't think of many newer Nintendo villains that have really impressed me.

So lets go through all the series and look:

Spoiler: Old villains

Mario/ Luigis mansion: King Boo unique pick because there are 0 ghosts in smash
Yoshi: Kamek also an iteresting pick because the witch archetype also isnt present!
Wario: Captain syrup She has a mech and a ghini although considering how dead wario land is shes a stretch (although that didnt stop king k rool)
Zelda: Skull kid/ Majora (who are by definition not one offs even if you dont count Smash or hw), You Could include vaati who would be unique thanks to his wind ability, gohma is a giant spider so thats cool, Dodongo i guess maybe octorok all those picks have something going for them! Although realistically skull kid is the only one!
Kirby: Dark Matter is an incarnation of the first era of kirbys main villain void that should count for something?
Pokemon: PUT GIOVANNI IN NOW!
Metroid: Well Metroid the friggin game is named after them!
Fire Emblem: If you have to rep the newest fire embelm pick a villain for once okay! (although they havent impressed me
F-Zero: i mean black shadow has support
Star Fox: Shrink the andross head down because andross is really cool and give him the brain form on his last leg!

Also when it comes to newer villain how about kirby they deliever each time and you could justify an Elfilin/ Elfilis Hybrid as a character also morpho or heck do void!

Zelda: has as you said Ganondorf/Calamity ganon/yuganon but Bokoblins have only recently become popular, also kohga is great (although hes not one i want in smash right now he is still impresive)

 

[Perkilator]

You know, even though Raven Beak is far from a super obvious newcomer for the next game, it makes me sad to see people underplay him because...I just think he's cool.