Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Will]

Would anyone just for the novelty love to see the current roster in the graphical style of 64 an melee?

That’s what we got Smash Remix for

 

[Jave]

Oh, I understand that, don't get me wrong. I was just curious on how many people assumed Alear would only be sword moves with Engage mechanics and did not know about their martial arts and DBZ-like moves. I mean, some people still have misconceptions about Corrin thinking they use their sword more than their transformations when over half of their moves utilise Corrin's transformations. Heck, Corrin only has 5 moves that use just the sword. The rest of their moves either use the transformations or both and their throws don't use the sword either.

My main point was simply "Don't make assumptions of potential characters' movesets based on what little knowledge you know of them. They may have more than you assume." That's all I'm saying.

Oh yeah, I think I misread your original post but I definitely agree with what you're saying here. I feel Alear's chances rely greatly on their moveset potential, and it's up to whether the devs feel like they can do something unique with it. I definitely wouldn't be rooting for Alear if they were another sword-locked Lord.

 

[Shinuto]

That’s what we got Smash Remix for

I can't get the Aegis sisters or Min Min in that!

 

[Louie G.]

Any Grand Theft Auto character. All of the protagonists are palette-swappable IMO, like a Hero situation. GTA V is still in the Top 3 Best-Selling Games in History, IIRC. I argue GTA has done more for gaming than MK.

Not that it's really a contest here, but I think it's telling you just vaguely said "GTA characters" compared to namedropping Scorpion and Sub-Zero directly. CJ and Trevor / Franklin are plenty iconic mind you, those sales would obviously reflect notoriety to some degree, but I feel like as standalone characters MK is generally more identifiable. GTA doesn't especially prioritize giving their protagonists striking character design quirks that define them quite like the MK ninjas.

Both are valid answers to this question, I just wanted to acknowledge it since the question was "most iconic character" and you moreso emphasized that the games sold well and less that the characters are iconic on their own, even suggesting they're pretty much interchangeable.

 

[Will]

Not that it's really a contest here, but I think it's telling you just vaguely said "GTA characters" compared to namedropping Scorpion and Sub-Zero directly. CJ and Trevor / Franklin are plenty iconic mind you, those sales would obviously reflect notoriety to some degree, but I feel like as standalone characters MK is generally more identifiable. GTA doesn't especially prioritize giving their protagonists striking character design quirks that define them quite like the MK ninjas.

Both are valid answers to this question, I just wanted to acknowledge it since the question was "most iconic character" and you moreso emphasized that the games sold well and less that the characters are iconic on their own, even suggesting they're pretty much interchangeable.

Yeah? They’re fighting game characters. Their moveset was defined decades ago.

GTA is an open-world sandbox shooter, and while each installment has slightly different changes, you can implement all (or 4) of the protagonists without needing to impact the overall moveset. The core has always remained. Why else would I reference Hero? It was the perfect way to celebrate an anthology series.

I also don’t know the name of the new girl in GTA VI.

 

[SPEN18]

I'm sorry, but I kinda don't get what your point is.

My original point was this:

I'm gonna add that it also seems really weird to me to see people constantly propping up the more niche "legacy" veterans like Lucas, Falco, Ness, Ice Climbers, Ike, Sheik, Jigglypuff, etc. as "Smash icons" and then go on to say that we're running out of good legacy reps. Because a lot of the legacy reps we could get compare pretty favorably with at least most of those in terms of popularity within their series and long-term impact.

It seemed like you were disputing that, saying that the former group being "Smash staples" makes them more worth including than the latter group. Which I don't think is necessarily the case when you consider the merits that other characters could bring, on a case-by-case basis of course.
Point is, people often tend to give passes to veterans for not being the most impactful characters outside of Smash, but treat other legacy characters who aren't in Smash like they're nobodies. Which I don't think is the right way to approach it.

--

But yeah, already being in Smash makes a character more popular. I think the Ballot proved it. I really doubt that all those votes for Wolf came from Starfox fans only. Ice Climbers wouldn't have been on anyone's radar if they weren't already in the older Smash games. As for myself, I gave a vote to Snake just because of how fun he was in Brawl, never touched a Metal Gear game before or after.

No, I don't dispute that being in Smash helps a character's popularity, but to be fair, the ballot was literally asking Smash fans who they like, which gives a clear advantage to characters Smash fans are guaranteed to be highly familiar with. As I've explained before, there were also several circumstantial factors that led to vets getting a lot of votes, namely:

the reveals of early veteran DLC before the ballot increasing the perceived likelihood of other veterans making it back;

the low number of veterans not already in the game by the time of the ballot, allowing support for vets to be spread less thinly;

and the ballot coming right on the heels of certain characters being cut in the first place, making the cuts fresh on people's minds.

--

And we might not have any official word about who's more popular between Captain Falcon and, say, the Wii Fit Trainer, but if you've been in the Smash fandom even for just a little while you kinda just know.

Maybe not the best example there since Falcon is a much longer-standing vet compared to WFT (so his popularity over WFT fits in with the narrative of longer-standing vets getting more of a pass).

That said, I guess I don't disagree that some characters seem to benefit more from Smash in terms of popularity than others, though it can be difficult to put in precise terms, or established as anything entirely aside from their innate, general popularity. But even with the benefits the veterans have had from being in Smash, I honestly think, for example, Skull Kid appeals to Zelda fans at least as much as Sheik, Lyn appeals to FE fans just about as much as Ike or Robin, several older Pokemon would bring at least as much appeal as Jigglypuff, and so forth. They're not any lesser-quality choices than characters we already have.

--

Regardless, another overarching theme I'd like to convey here is that popularity among Smash fans is only one factor to consider. In the Falcon vs. WFT example, WFT appeals more to hyper-casuals whereas a hardcore racer like F-Zero might have more overlap with Smash's audience, but I still think representing hyper-casual games like Wii Fit in Smash is highly valuable even though their characters might not always end up as community darlings. Wii Fit crushes F-Zero in terms of sales, brings in a different audience, and honestly represents an entire era of Nintendo's console history very well; it's not as simple as just observing that Falcon is more popular among Smash fans and therefore prioritizing him higher. To be clear, I don't expect Falcon to be cut at all, but I don't think it's obvious that he'd be a higher priority to include than Wii Fit.

 

[superprincess]

Not to rekindle this conversation but I fact checked it and Sheik uses masculine adjectives to refer to themself in every non-English language in OoT.

Anyways.

As for characters who are iconic but have no chance, it's totally Toad. He's been a huge part of the series since the beginning, is present in all the spinoffs in some shape or form, he even got his own game and more screen time than Luigi in the Mario Movie. Yet I'm willing to bet that Smash 6 won't pull a 180 with him. I'm certain he'll stay in Peach's moveset.

 

[Noipoi]

Toad may be trapped in Peach's moveset.

However...

Spoiler

 

[BritishGuy54]

Well, if there’s any iconic characters likely not getting in Smash, I guess I’ll say it. I don’t think Crash will come to Smash. It sucks to hear, and with the series slinking back into dormancy, alongside not really being as consistently relevant as Mario and Sonic are, plus Microsoft perhaps wanting other picks… it doesn’t look good for Crash.

As for ratings talk, I'll say what I always do. I'd prefer if they were allowed to go up a rating for the sake of making including more content from T/M rated games a bit easier. No need to go back and forth with CERO over skirt lengths, no omitted characters for things as simple as background cameos, maybe even open the doors for monsters like Nemesis or allow for use of more stylized firearms ala Marvel vs Capcom. I don't see this happening though. Smash will likely continue trying its best to maintain the CERO A.

I don’t think Smash can even be CERO A without dramatically censoring content. We’ve already seen this with the recent spirit events and Mii costumes to the end of FP2.

Keeping the series at CERO A would basically make Spirits (or their equivalent next game), or other aspects sterile. No references to that game. Even when people complained about them no longer having descriptions… imagine if the stages and spirits couldn’t reference what game or series they were from, or even some characters missing emblems…

Worst case scenario, we see the exclusion of many different T-rated franchises. Metroid, Mother, Xenoblade, Street Fighter, Tekken… they would all have to be cut, and… just no. That’s too much, and would be too drastic.

Smash 6 really should just become a flat CERO B rating, to at least get that T rated content in the game. For M-rated stuff… I honestly think that’s a lost cause for now. I do hope for Bayonetta to return, as she’s basically an honorary Nintendo character at this point, but I’m not a 100% sure now.

I wonder if the age rating discrepancy between Japan, the USA, and even Europe is something Sakurai and Nintendo take into account when planning the next game’s roster.

 

[superprincess]

Toad may be trapped in Peach's moveset.

However...

Spoiler

Him being a separate identity to Toad is not very clear. Gamers and fans of the series with a keen eye do recognize him as a separate person, but in the public eye? He's Toad wearing a headlamp. It also doesn't help that the Mario Movie gave "the Toad" a Captain Toad-like backpack.

If Toad ever did get in, I wouldn't want it to be normal or captain. I'd want Toad to be an amalgamation of all Toads, like Mr. G&W and Piranha Plant are.

 

[Will]

Toad may be trapped in Peach's moveset.

However...

Spoiler

I just want to know how he’ll work in the instance he can’t jump. If he goes off a ledge, would he immediately fast fall to the blast zone?

 

[Noipoi]

I just want to know how he’ll work in the instance he can’t jump. If he goes off a ledge, would he immediately fast fall to the blast zone?

Yes

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

This might change in the distant future, but as far as iconic characters not popping up, I just don't see Kratos or various other Sony owned characters appearing. There's a certain ease of relationship Nintendo seems to have with most major game companies; one they don't seem to possess with SIE in any real way.

 

[Will]

View attachment 385937

Yes

So cool let’s add him right now

 

[Gorgonzales]

I just want to know how he’ll work in the instance he can’t jump. If he goes off a ledge, would he immediately fast fall to the blast zone?

Just wanted to say that if Captain Toad ever does get into Smash, he has to jump. His jumps probably won't be good, but he has to jump to even function in a game like Smash, and I'm 99% confident they'll give him that ability if he does make it in.

Look at Little Mac, a character widely considered to be among the worst in the game to his garbage aerial mobility. His design is already polarizing, and I'm certain that taking it to an even greater extreme would not work. How on earth would anyone expect a character in a platform fighter to just not have one of the most basic, defining mobility options that everyone else has access to? It doesn't make sense and would honestly be terrible game design.

"It's accurate to his series!" doesn't hold weight. You have to make sacrifices when translating media; Link and Olimar aren't known for jumping either, but they do it just fine. There's numerous other examples, but you get the picture.

 

[fogbadge]

Not to rekindle this conversation but I fact checked it and Sheik uses masculine adjectives to refer to themself in every non-English language in OoT.

yeah that doesn't sound like a bait at all

and cite your sources

 

[Louie G.]

"It's accurate to his series!" doesn't hold weight. You have to make sacrifices when translating media; Link and Olimar aren't known for jumping either, but they do it just fine. There's numerous other examples, but you get the picture.

Yeah, I'm not exactly banking on Captain Toad but it's a little frustrating that this has to be gone over every time he comes up. Smash is about representing a character's essence best it can while also being reasonable about the way it translates into Smash's game style. Jumping is an essential part of Smash, a very movement heavy game, so the equivalent is simply to give him some of the lowest jumps in the game. Captain Toad would be at an aerial disadvantage, but not outright unable to perform a basic function.

A concept I always thought held some weight was the ability to shed his weight and take off / empty the backpack to become something more comparable to the agile Toad we're used to. That way you don the backpack when you want to throw on some extra weight for defense, or maybe to make moves stronger or even equip Captain Toad with otherwise inaccessible assets like items he can throw out of his pack. Just spitballing but if they really felt compelled by this angle I think that would be another way to represent the way Captain Toad's backpack intrinsically weighs him down and the importance of that toward his character, without straight up making him a walking gimmick.

 

[Laniv]

I mean, just give Captain Toad Steve-esque jumps, and make him heavier to compensate. Seems like an easy enough thing.

Alternatively, just add the regular Toad. :D

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Just wanted to say that if Captain Toad ever does get into Smash, he has to jump. His jumps probably won't be good, but he has to jump to even function in a game like Smash, and I'm 99% confident they'll give him that ability if he does make it in.

Look at Little Mac, a character widely considered to be among the worst in the game to his garbage aerial mobility. His design is already polarizing, and I'm certain that taking it to an even greater extreme would not work. How on earth would anyone expect a character in a platform fighter to just not have one of the most basic, defining mobility options that everyone else has access to? It doesn't make sense and would honestly be terrible game design.

"It's accurate to his series!" doesn't hold weight. You have to make sacrifices when translating media; Link and Olimar aren't known for jumping either, but they do it just fine. There's numerous other examples, but you get the picture.

I often wonder if this sentiment would be less common if Smash fighter design leaned closer to the 64/Melee model of not being so fixated on playing so closely to character's home games. Its neither inherently good nor bad as a philosophy, just something that I think might lead to more fans these days being insistent on faithfulness that begins to affect functionality.

 

[Dinoman96]

Well, if there’s any iconic characters likely not getting in Smash, I guess I’ll say it. I don’t think Crash will come to Smash. It sucks to hear, and with the series slinking back into dormancy, alongside not really being as consistently relevant as Mario and Sonic are, plus Microsoft perhaps wanting other picks… it doesn’t look good for Crash.

I don't think the bolded matters, it's Nintendo and Sakurai picking the characters here.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Captain Toad's cool and all, but it's the main Toad that interests me as a character.

As for the former, making a moveset that doesn't much involve jumping as an option can still be neat. Little Mac shows it's plausible, but it still involves it as a literal move, so an even more grounded character can be interesting.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Who is the biggest most iconic videogame character that has no chance relative to all other potentials?

Grand Theft Auto characters.

 

[NintenRob]

I'm gonna throw Creeper into the ring for most iconic character who will never be playable.


He'd be the perfect Assist Trophy though

 

[7NATOR]

Who is the biggest most iconic videogame character that has no chance relative to all other potentials?

So I agree with the Following Options I've seen in this thread

Lara Croft
GTA Characters
Anything Sony Related
Call of Duty Soldier
Mrs. PAC-MAN
Toad
Mew
Gengar (and I'll admit this one is a weird one also)

Lara Croft especially after Edios got sold off by Square, because at least with Square it would have made the connection easier, but now I think it's over, which is a Shame.

GTA I think is Self Explanatory, I think Nintendo has to worry more about if GTA 6 will compete heavily if it comes out at Same time as the Switch 2

Sony is both a Competitor and acts like a Competitor toward Nintendo, even if some representatives went to that Spa Smash tournament

Call of Duty relies too heavily on Realistic weaponry movements, among other things.


I would Disagree on Mortal Kombat being impossible, in spite of it's Franchises's Reputation and being banned in Japan (or at least not being sold there). I think the fact WB did try (and still is) to make their own Smash in the form of Multiversus might be a factor though, though that didn't stop Ubisoft from having Content in Smash

I still think Scorpion and Sub-Zero are possible, but they definitely have to be DLC, seeing this is Warner Bros we are talking about here


I would also add in the Following Franchises and/or Characters, but these are maybes

-Resident Evil
-Fortnite


If Smash doesn't get a Ratings Boost, I doubt anything Resident Evil related will show up in Smash, at least in the form of Substantial content that's not Spirits. At the very least, there needs to be a serious Discussion about how to represent the series.

For Fortnite, I think this is more of an Internal Company thing then anything within Fortnite itself, in that Nintendo not biting the bullet in adding any of it's characters in Fortnite could be a sign that things might not line up for Fortnite in Smash. Fortnite is one of those games that absolutely doesn't need Smash, and in fact it's quite the Opposite direction, On top of the fact that Epic has Unreal Engine profits and their store.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Who is the biggest most iconic videogame character that has no chance relative to all other potentials?

Uh...probably Kratos?

Would anyone just for the novelty love to see the current roster in the graphical style of 64 an melee?

Like...a picture of that? Sure. A game like that? Hell no.

I just want to know how he’ll work in the instance he can’t jump.

They give him a jump.

Because he'll be an composite of Toad mechanics. Not a 1-to-1 recreation of Treasure Tracker.

Captain Toad's cool and all, but it's the main Toad that interests me as a character.

Toadette is better than either of them. Being Captain Toad's alt is just a means to get her into the game.

 

[fogbadge]

Captain Toad's cool and all, but it's the main Toad that interests me as a character.

As for the former, making a moveset that doesn't much involve jumping as an option can still be neat. Little Mac shows it's plausible, but it still involves it as a literal move, so an even more grounded character can be interesting.

so what you’re saying is we should have both? and toadette?

 

[Shinuto]

Uh...probably Kratos?

Like...a picture of that? Sure. A game like that? Hell no.

What? Don't tell me you wouldn't alt costumes of the characters in low poly models mimicking N64 smash look

 

[NintenRob]

Shout out to the N64 Mario being a costume in Mario Odyssey, that was amazing.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

so what you’re saying is we should have both? and toadette?

I prefer just Toad(and Toadette seems like a good alt, though I don't know of any unique skills she has?), but Captain Toad is a fine secondary addition(and he's getting more iconic slowly, which does help). As for Captain Toadette, she makes sense as a Captain Toad alt instead.

As weird as it is to split them up, it makes more sense since it's a moveset factor. But as I said, I don't know of Toadette's unique skills. In either regular or Captain form.

 

[DarthEnderX]

What? Don't tell me you wouldn't alt costumes of the characters in low poly models mimicking N64 smash look

I...actually kinda don't. Like, it already annoys me that the N64 stages didn't get nice glowups the way every other stage did in Ultimate.

The aesthetic of the N64/PS1 era of gaming is not one that appeals to me on any level. It never has. It's the only console generation I feel looked categorically WORSE than the previous generation. And I have no nostalgia for it.

 

[Shinuto]

I...actually kinda don't. Like, it already annoys me that the N64 stages didn't get nice glowups the way every other stage did in Ultimate.

The aesthetic of the N64/PS1 era of gaming is not one that appeals to be on any level, and I don't miss it at all.

You're dead to me.

 

[fogbadge]

I prefer just Toad(and Toadette seems like a good alt, though I don't know of any unique skills she has?), but Captain Toad is a fine secondary addition(and he's getting more iconic slowly, which does help). As for Captain Toadette, she makes sense as a Captain Toad alt instead.

As weird as it is to split them up, it makes more sense since it's a moveset factor. But as I said, I don't know of Toadette's unique skills. In either regular or Captain form.

all the toads

 

[DarthEnderX]

You're dead to me.

bottomtext

 

[superprincess]

yeah that doesn't sound like a bait at all

and cite your sources

Not "bait" Here go the sources ♡

Spoiler: Big images

"un" = masculine version of "one" in French. Feminine is "une".

"uno" = masculine version of "one" in Italian. Feminine is "una".

As for Japanese (the game's original language) Sheik uses "boku" which is a personal pronoun typically used by young males.

 

[Louie G.]

I would also add in the Following Franchises and/or Characters, but these are maybes

-Resident Evil

It would have to take some liberties and notable exemptions, but Resident Evil is still viable under our current model. The main question is whether or not Sakurai or Nintendo would feel it's worth adding after certain motions take place. At the very least I don't see many issues with the characters themselves, guns are a non-issue at this point, but if the more gruesome designs like Nemesis are seen as essential and they aren't ok with toning down the zombies / giving them green ooze or whatever then there wouldn't be a point.

I think everyone would be fine with it at the end of the day. Capcom themselves have censored the undead using this aforementioned green ooze technique in releases of MVC2, which honestly would make it around the same level of scary or graphic as some of what we've already seen from Castlevania. Otherwise big desolate mansions and rural towns are not exactly that challenging to represent on their own. And many major characters would still be able to have a presence, even central antagonists such as Wesker and Mr. X would be fair game.

Resident Evil is certainly a big enough deal and has enough forseeable incentive to be worth adding despite the necessary omissions. A T-rating would certainly make it even easier, but I think the solutions are pretty easy to envision and wouldn't come at the full expense of the series identity.

 

[fogbadge]

Not "bait" Here go the sources ♡

Spoiler: Big images

View attachment 385950
"un" = masculine version of "one" in French. Feminine is "une".
View attachment 385948
"uno" = masculine version of "one" in Italian. Feminine is "una".
View attachment 385951
View attachment 385954
As for Japanese (the game's original language) Sheik uses "boku" which is a personal pronoun typically used by young males.

there we go then

 

[superprincess]

I...actually kinda don't. Like, it already annoys me that the N64 stages didn't get nice glowups the way every other stage did in Ultimate.

The aesthetic of the N64/PS1 era of gaming is not one that appeals to me on any level. It never has. It's the only console generation I feel looked categorically WORSE than the previous generation. And I have no nostalgia for it.

What's even weirder is that those stages were tweaked and cleaned up pretty significantly, but weren't brought up to Ultimate level graphics for... reasons. Look, I'm sure there wasn't a lot of time to dedicate to those, what with 100+ stages in the base game, but they did make the effort to level them up a lot. So it's odd that they didn't go the extra little step.

and Toadette seems like a good alt, though I don't know of any unique skills she has?

About that...

Spoiler

there we go then

Oh and also

Spoiler

Hyrule Historia, page 87:

Princess Zelda had no choice but to wait for the seal on Link to be broken. In order to escape the Demon King's pursuit, she went into hiding by disguising herself as a boy of the Sheikah tribe and adopting the name Sheik.

Hyrule Historia, page 89:

Once the right moment had arrived, Sheik revealed his true identity to Link, confessing that he was actually Princess Zelda.

 

[Ivander]

Who is the biggest most iconic videogame character that has no chance relative to all other potentials?

If we're on that topic of Sony going to be a hard one to get into Smash Bros...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I forgot about the Super Crown, heh. So yeah, I could see Toadette working as a separate character too(with some Captain abilities thrown in, perhaps).

...Though that might work as a transformation character, though having a third Peach is kind of funny, but if they give Daisy a few differences(as well as other nearly identical Echoes), it could work well. XD Joking aside, it might work better as a Final Smash?

 

[NintenRob]

Keeping the 64 stages with N64 look was a choice and definitely not rooted in Laziness. Whether you like it or not is just personal choice but N64 had a very unique aesthetic so keeping that look would be nostalgic for quite a few.


It's just appealing to Nostalgia, that's all. (And I should clarify, that's not a bad thing)