Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[NintenRob]

want Nintendo to officially announce the next Smash exists already so that we can reopen the character support threads and discuss Alear in their own topic. There are way too many things I want to talk about.

Oh my god, this! Yes! Please! I'm so ready for this place to open up again. Though I'll admit I'm simultaneously terrified

 

[Chuderz]

Since others do it, I'm gonna share my own video here

Smash Bros has a Kirby problem, all the major content Kirby receives in Smash Bros all comes from the same 4 games, specifically the games Sakurai has worked on. And just how widespread this bias from Sakurai is.

"I don't think anyone is defending The Great Cave Offensive"

Somebody's gotta do it so just leave it to me!

I think it mostly sucks with more than 4 people. I get that it's obviously a stage sort of "designed" for 8-player Smash but any stage that size and with that many people to keep track of is going to have the camera zone out so much that fun suffers because the basic practice of keeping track of your fighter becomes very difficult. That's a camera problem that stems from the stage being heavily marketed for 8-player Smash. I think the less people on the stage the more fun it is essentially. At least no worse than any of the other giant stages. I personally find the stage to be very charming with all its obstacles. I actually just wish the stage was more fully realized from the actual Superstar Great Cave Offensive level. Personally I think it basically should have been the defacto Smash Run level/stage just as I said a more fully realized version of it pulled more directly from the actual level from Superstar. That would be the best way to represent it in Smash.

 

[SPEN18]

Whenever character usage is tracked down, they both end up in the top 25 or so which is pretty good - of course tracking like this is limited to tourneys, but these are two low tier or anyways difficult to win with characters, the high usage rate is easier to explain with people just liking to play as them.

Yeah I would not be looking at competitive tourneys for usage data. The sample size is gonna be way too small and not reflective of the wider playerbase.
Also, a character being lower-tier doesn't necessarily let you conclude that their usage is due to people liking them. A lot of usage is dictated by perceived strength rather than actual strength; if they're getting high usage but not performing well, it could very well just be that there's a bunch of players using them because they think they're strong, or because they think they can have success with them by way of surprise gimmicky/joke/anti-meta strats.

Maybe I misunderstood your initial point, but that's not what I was talking about. What I meant is that Captain Falcon, Ness, Sheik, Jigglypuff etc. are considered "Smash Staples" because they all fall into some combination of being played a lot / being meme'd a lot / being hyped a lot / offering a particularly unique or somewhat archetypical playstyle, like Sheik does for fast, combo-heavy fighters. How notorious or relevant they are or not are outside of Smash doesn't really matter. This can happen to any character of course, the only requisite is clicking with players.

The thing is that I see this "Smash staple" argument for pretty much every single vet, especially longtime vets. The effect just doesn't seem to be the result of anything special about any particular character, it just applies to everybody because, as it always gets said, "every character in Smash has their fans."
In my opinion, it doesn't seem super productive to devolve things into generic labels like that which are only weakly anecdotally supported at best. I do think we should give characters credit for their popularity, but the "Smash staple" argument is difficult to make without just giving everybody an arbitrary boost simply for having been in the game for X number of years.

On the other side of the coin, a character like Lyn or Skull Kid who is able to maintain such high popularity within their series' fanbase for so many years without being playable in Smash is something to be valued and commended.

But anyway, when I'm saying certain characters compare favorably to several already in Smash, I mean they're not any worse in notoriety, popularity within their respective series, or potential to bring a new dynamic to Smash's gameplay. Simply put, they're just as good of choices as lots of the ones we actually did get, with just as much potential to become beloved members of the cast should they be added, and from that angle I don't think you can say that we're running out of options from older Nintendo, though like I said there is also a wealth of options from more modern Nintendo, as well as choices who represent both.

 

[Lionfranky]

Sakurai is wrapping up his youtube activity by uploading video of compiled version of all lessons. It's shame that he is ending this. As much as I enjoyed his character presentation, I've enjoyed his lesson videos just as much if not more.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

The thing is that I see this "Smash staple" argument for pretty much every single vet, especially longtime vets. The effect just doesn't seem to be the result of anything special about any particular character, it just applies to everybody because, as it always gets said, "every character in Smash has their fans."
In my opinion, it doesn't seem super productive to devolve things into generic labels like that which are only weakly anecdotally supported at best. I do think we should give characters credit for their popularity, but the "Smash staple" argument is difficult to make without just giving everybody an arbitrary boost simply for having been in the game for X number of years.

On the other side of the coin, a character like Lyn or Skull Kid who is able to maintain such high popularity within their series' fanbase for so many years without being playable in Smash is something to be valued and commended.

But anyway, when I'm saying certain characters compare favorably to several already in Smash, I mean they're not any worse in notoriety, popularity within their respective series, or potential to bring a new dynamic to Smash's gameplay. Simply put, they're just as good of choices as lots of the ones we actually did get, with just as much potential to become beloved members of the cast should they be added, and from that angle I don't think you can say that we're running out of options from older Nintendo, though like I said there is also a wealth of options from more modern Nintendo, as well as choices who represent both.

I'm sorry, but I kinda don't get what your point is. That characters who are not super popular have always gotten into Smash, will continue to do so, and will probably click with at least some players? That's basically what I'm saying too... It's always happened. That's Ness, Falco, Sheik, Jigglypuff etc.

But yeah, already being in Smash makes a character more popular. I think the Ballot proved it. I really doubt that all those votes for Wolf came from Starfox fans only. Ice Climbers wouldn't have been on anyone's radar if they weren't already in the older Smash games. As for myself, I gave a vote to Snake just because of how fun he was in Brawl, never touched a Metal Gear game before or after.
And we might not have any official word about who's more popular between Captain Falcon and, say, the Wii Fit Trainer, but if you've been in the Smash fandom even for just a little while you kinda just know.

 

[fogbadge]

Sheik isn't nearly as obscure of a choice as people make him out to be.

her

 

[NintenRob]

her

Let's not go there. Either option works

 

[fogbadge]

Let's not go there. Either option works

Let’s not go with the canon?

 

[Gorgonzales]

You just described Mewtwo lol

Mewtwo if he was well-designed

 

[Guynamednelson]

Mewtwo if he was well-designed

So...Mewtwo post-Smash 4 patches

 

[NintenRob]

Let’s not go with the canon?

Alrighty. I hope this is the only post that needs to cover it because this shouldn't be complicated.

She/Her pronouns work for Sheik because Sheik is Zelda and Zelda is a woman. Later depictions of Sheik would also be more overtly feminine

However

He/Him pronouns also work because the original intent of the Sheik persona was for Zelda to disguise herself as a man. In Ocarina of Time, Sheik is strictly referred to as a man and uses Male pronouns. (So if we're talking about strictly canon, it's male pronouns for Sheik)



And to quell any counter arguments to that last point before they arise.

Sheik is a character created by Zelda. It's a female character playing the part of a Male character. But this does not make Sheik a girl in Ocarina of Time. Much like how Ash Ketchum and Bart Simpson aren't girls just because they're voiced by women. Same story with Drag Queens.

 

[fogbadge]

Alrighty. I hope this is the only post that needs to cover it because this shouldn't be complicated.

She/Her pronouns work for Sheik because Sheik is Zelda and Zelda is a woman. Later depictions of Sheik would also be more overtly feminine

However

He/Him pronouns also work because the original intent of the Sheik persona was for Zelda to disguise herself as a man. In Ocarina of Time, Sheik is strictly referred to as a man and uses Male pronouns. (So if we're talking about strictly canon, it's male pronouns for Sheik)



And to quell any counter arguments to that last point before they arise.

Sheik is a character created by Zelda. It's a female character playing the part of a Male character. But this does not make Sheik a girl in Ocarina of Time. Much like how Ash Ketchum and Bart Simpson aren't girls just because they're voiced by women. Same story with Drag Queens.

you didn’t know the Zelda team confirmed shiek is female years ago did you

 

[NintenRob]

you didn’t know the Zelda team confirmed shiek is female years ago did you

That has absolutely no bearing on what I just said. The comment by Bill Trinen was in response to the debate if Zelda was magically becoming a Man. She doesn't, so she's female. A female in a male disguise.

 

[fogbadge]

That has absolutely no bearing on what I just said. The comment by Bill Trinen was in response to the debate if Zelda was magically becoming a Man. She doesn't, so she's female. A female in a male disguise.

It was described as the definitive answer. And they’re in charge of the canon so they would know

 

[superprincess]

her

This argument is tired. But I'll bite.

The original design of Sheik was explicitly male, and in Ocarina of Time the character is even referred to as such (Princess Ruto: "a young man named Sheik saved me from under the ice." "If you see Sheik, give him my thanks). The official manga doubles down on this.

Smash was the first game to completely feminize Sheik. A non-canon game. Then Hyrule Warriors doubled down on it. But the original design from the canon game is a male persona.

When I first played Brawl (at like 3 years old) I didn't even speak English and never picked up on the Sheik name. Played OoT a few years later, and the Sheik from that game registered as a totally different character and, at first, a male.

Even Smash itself uses male pronouns for Sheik in the tips section and in Palutena's Guidance. And that's the BotW design.

This is one of the reasons I hope Sheik goes back to OoT next time. The braided ninja lady redesign never made sense with the original intent of the character.

Not saying that "she" doesn't work for Sheik. "He" is just what I'm used to.

 

[Soy_Man]

It was described as the definitive answer.

By who?

 

[fogbadge]

This argument is tired. But I'll bite.

The original design of Sheik was explicitly male, and in Ocarina of Time the character is even referred to as such (Princess Ruto: "a young man named Sheik saved me from under the ice." "If you see Sheik, give him my thanks). The official manga doubles down on this.

Smash was the first game to completely feminize Sheik. A non-canon game. Then Hyrule Warriors doubled down on it. But the original design from the canon game is a male persona.

When I first played Brawl (at like 3 years old) I didn't even speak English and never picked up on the Sheik name. Played OoT a few years later, and the Sheik from that game registered as a totally different character and, at first, a male.

Even Smash itself uses male pronouns for Sheik in the tips section and in Palutena's Guidance. And that's the BotW design.

This is one of the reasons I hope Sheik goes back to OoT next time. The braided ninja lady redesign never made sense with the original intent of the character.

Not saying that "she" doesn't work for Sheik. "He" is just what I'm used to.

If what you’re used to then fine. But Nintendo gave an answer to this ages ago. The point is Ruto was mistaken, she assumed shiek was a man but she was wrong

By who?

Nintendo

 

[NintenRob]

It was described as the definitive answer. And they’re in charge of the canon so they would know

I'm not diving into gender politics or the validity of Bill Trinen comments on the Zelda series.


This is the last thing I'm saying on the subject. Ocarina of Time explicitly refers to Sheik as a man. So it's valid for someone else to use male pronouns when referring to Sheik and they shouldn't require correcting.

 

[fogbadge]

I'm not diving into gender politics or the validity of Bill Trinen comments on the Zelda series.


This is the last thing I'm saying on the subject. Ocarina of Time explicitly refers to Sheik as a man. So it's valid for someone else to use male pronouns when referring to Sheik and they shouldn't require correcting.

again the idea is that they were wrong. one character refers to shiek as a man, she never calls herself one

 

[DarthEnderX]

her

UWHAAAAAAAAT?!!

Next you'll be telling me the badass bounty hunter in the suit is a girl.

 

[Gengar84]

This is a kind of silly topic to get into such a big argument over. Since Zelda is female and the Sheik persona is male, I think either pronoun could be correct to use. It doesn’t really matter much to me which people want to go with. I’m personally used to referring to her as female but I don’t think it’s wrong to refer to the character as male.

 

[fogbadge]

This is a kind of silly topic to get into such a big argument over. Since Zelda is female and the Sheik persona is male, I think either pronoun could be correct to use. It doesn’t really matter much to me which people want to go with. I’m personally used to referring to her as female but I don’t think it’s wrong to refer to the character as male.

but that’s the point, the persona isn’t male. people just thought it was.

it’s no different than when Nintendo said the koopalings aren’t bowser’s kids and we all accepted that eventually

 

[superprincess]

again the idea is that they were wrong. one character refers to shiek as a man, she never calls herself one

Wrong. Impa is the one who trained Sheik, and in the manga (officially licensed) she calls Sheik a young Sheikah boy. She knows that Sheik is Zelda, but goes along with calling "Sheik" a male to help Zelda conceal her identity.

This is veering way into off topic though, so let's end it here. Just don't try to pass your own view off as fact, when there's in fact no "correct" opinion.

Moving on

 

[fogbadge]

Wrong. Impa is the one who trained Sheik, and in the manga (officially licensed) she calls Sheik a young Sheikah boy. She knows that Sheik is Zelda, but goes along with calling "Sheik" a male to help Zelda conceal her identity.

This is veering way into off topic though, so let's end it here. Just don't try to pass your own view off as fact, when there's in fact no "correct" opinion.

Moving on

the manga is a separate canon. the fact that it leaves out certain scenes and changes several others is proof of this

 

[chocolatejr9]

Um... why are we talking about the gender of a fictional fantasy princess disguised as a secret ninja?

 

[fogbadge]

Um... why are we talking about the gender of a fictional fantasy princess disguised as a secret ninja?

i dunno it’s nice change of pace from talking about fire emblem or master chief again

 

[Wonder Smash]

This is taken from Sheik's trophies in Melee:

"This is Zelda's alter ego. Using a variation of the name of the ancient Sheikah tribe, she appears before Link and teaches him melodies instrumental to his success. It's believed that she's not just a quick-change artist, but rather that she is able to instantaneously alter her clothing and her eye and skin color by using her magical skills."

"The best strategy to use when playing as Sheik is to let her flow from one powerful attack into another, like a river of quicksilver. Zelda has some techniques with more punch, however, so in one-on-one battles, use Transform as needed. Sheik only travels a short way when using Vanish, but the move comes with a small explosion that damages foes around her."

"The best strategy to use when playing as Sheik is to let her flow from one powerful attack into another, like a river of quicksilver. Zelda has some techniques with more punch, however, so in one-on-one battles, use Transform as needed. Sheik only travels a short way when using Vanish, but the move comes with a small explosion that damages foes around her."

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Speaking of the Zelda franchise...

In the past Sakurai has indicated that he thinks a child Link is important and that has manifested in . Since the creation of a child Link, there's been at least one (usually Toon Link) in every Smash game.

Do you think Sakurai still feels this way? Without devolving into which one it would be, do you think we'd still keep one of them? In a time where the roster may need to trim the fat, is a second Link necessary in Sakurai's eyes?

Personally I'd love for Toon Link to stay. And Zelda needs more characters, not less, imo. I think Brawl and Smash 4's Zelda roster should be the minimum at this point.

Only one person responded so I'm asking this again.

 

[RileyXY1]

IIRC the Ultimate section was opened as soon as the Switch was announced, although that was back when a lot of people were speculating that we would just get a port of Smash 4.

 

[fogbadge]

Only one person responded so I'm asking this again.

its difficult to say what sakurai thinks but my guess is toon link is going to stay on. he’s something of a mainstay at this point I’d say

 

[Gengar84]

Does anyone ever think of potential newcomers as potential reps for their game genres? As a rule, I tend to just root for characters I like but it is fun to think about how the character could bring elements of their genres into their fighting style in Smash. There are a ton of unrepresented and underrepresented genres in Smash that would be cool to see how they would translate to Smash.

Here’s a few of my most wanted characters by genre:

JRPG: Magus (Chrono Trigger)
SRPG: Etna (Disgaea)
MMORPG: Illidan Stormrage (World of WarCraft)
Beat ‘em Up: Rash/Pimple/Zitz (Battletoads)
Fighting: Fulgore (Killer Instinct)
Platformer: Zero (Mega Man X)
RTS: Sarah Kerrigan (StarCraft)
MOBA: Jinx (League of Legends)
FPS: Joanna Dark (Perfect Dark)
Run and Gun: Bill Rizer/Lance Bean (Contra)
Survival Horror: Nemesis (Resident Evil)
Metroidvania: E.M.M.I. (Metroid Dread)

 

[Louie G.]

Speaking of the Zelda franchise...

In the past Sakurai has indicated that he thinks a child Link is important and that has manifested in . Since the creation of a child Link, there's been at least one (usually Toon Link) in every Smash game.

Do you think Sakurai still feels this way? Without devolving into which one it would be, do you think we'd still keep one of them? In a time where the roster may need to trim the fat, is a second Link necessary in Sakurai's eyes?

Rob pretty much summarized how I feel about it, if Link is going to remain based around BOTW / TOTK then it’s likely important to not only keep around a younger version of himself but one with the more iconic, classic look and a more conventional kit.

The most productive option of the two is Toon Link, who also manages to represent a branch of other Zelda games that would otherwise go largely neglected. With OOT well accounted for already, Young Link doesn’t accomplish much on his own. I do however think Toon Link feels… a bit weird, most of the time. And Young Link’s moveset comes together quite well, so if he’s cut I’d love to see Tink adopt some of those stronger elements.

And I agree that we should be getting five Zelda characters at bare minimum. We can argue however we want about whether Shiek or Toon Link are expendable but Zelda probably ought to cling onto as much as it can.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

tomorrow is the announcement of the final spirit event since this friday is the 6th anniversary of the first trailer of Ultimate.

 

[superprincess]

Only one person responded so I'm asking this again.

Toon Link's art style is pretty iconic so I think he's going to stay. I believe Sakurai values having two Links that are distinct enough, both visually and in gameplay. Having two Links around really shows how diverse the Zelda series is and how each incarnation of the hero is a different entity.

I do wish we got a Link that looks like the Hero of Hyrule, as in the original Link from the first Legend of Zelda. He could use classic weapons from the 2D games. But having the first "new" Zelda character after almost 20 years be another Link wouldn't be the best choice.

 

[Gengar84]

If I could only have one version of Link in Smash, my favorite by a good amount is OoT adult Link. I personally think the best solution with the Triforce trio is to have alts for each version of the character like they did for Hyrule Warriors. That way, everyone still gets to play as their favorite incarnations of each character.

 

[superprincess]

If I could only have one version of Link in Smash, my favorite by a good amount is OoT adult Link. I personally think the best solution with the Triforce trio is to have alts for each version of the character like they did for Hyrule Warriors. That way, everyone still gets to play as their favorite incarnations of each character.

I've thought of this idea myself, but it poses a few problems. Half of Link's incarnations are left handed, while the rest are right handed. There's also the differences in weapons and abilities, such as Bombs VS Remote Bombs and Boomerang VS Gale Boomerang.

Different Zeldas and Ganondorfs (Ganondorves?) would be easier to implement, but still have a few issues. For example, SS Zelda is more cheerful and cutesy compared to the cold and stoic TP Zelda. Her association with the goddesses is also inconsistent. And then there's Ganondorf's different swords, and the beast in the Final Smash. Unlike Link, these could be remedied by some extra work, but it's a question of if the Smash team thinks that extra work is worth it for a few alts.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

tomorrow is the announcement of the final spirit event since this friday is the 6th anniversary of the first trailer of Ultimate.

It can easily be announced tomorrow, but it won't be because of some arbitrary reason like ramdomly celebrating a teaser.

 

[Gengar84]

I've thought of this idea myself, but it poses a few problems. Half of Link's incarnations are left handed, while the rest are right handed. There's also the differences in weapons and abilities, such as Bombs VS Remote Bombs and Boomerang VS Gale Boomerang.

Different Zeldas and Ganondorfs (Ganondorves?) would be easier to implement, but still have a few issues. For example, SS Zelda is more cheerful and cutesy compared to the cold and stoic TP Zelda. Her association with the goddesses is also inconsistent. And then there's Ganondorf's different swords, and the beast in the Final Smash. Unlike Link, these could be remedied by some extra work, but it's a question of if the Smash team thinks that extra work is worth it for a few alts.

You do make some good points but I think it could still be made to work. The idea is to make the movesets basically an amalgamation of the characters as a whole and take inspiration from each instead of making the moveset for any one particular version and just throwing alts for the others on top. Kind of like how Simon/Richter takes elements from each character. You’d still obviously have to make some compromises but I think it’s the best way to go about it and I’d happily take that.

 

[DarthEnderX]

SRPG: Etna (Disgaea)

You are never getting loli-bait Etna in Smash my dude.

 

[Shinuto]

You are never getting loli-bait Etna in Smash my dude.

I'd prefer Etna over Laharl since she's more prominent of a character throughout the series.