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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Louie G.

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I don't think Akira should keep the 3D retro look, though. He should definitely go with his VF5 look.
Yeah, I can understand the perspective but this would admittedly make him less exciting for me. I feel like the old school Virtua Fighter look is pretty iconic (and I say that just as I'm remembering I'm donning a parody of it as my pfp LOL) and feeling like he was lifted directly out of an older game would be more of an x-factor that would designate Akira differently than the martial artists we've already got. Not to say Virtua Fighter has nothing original of its own to add outside of a unique coat of paint, but I do think it would sell it even harder that way.

Sega themselves and official merchandise of Virtua Fighter seem to also hold the classic style in high regard. Feel like it's a coin flip.

1708895580970.png


Given why Kazuya was picked over Heihachi, I dunno. VF is grounded enough that there's no wings Akira can grow that can work as his up-B.
Fair enough, although I'm sure a liberty can be taken somewhere. Devil gene definitely helped Kazuya lend himself more effortlessly to the mold of Smash though, unless Akira would just have to deal with abysmal Little Mac esque recovery options and make up for it elsewhere.
 
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AreJay25

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To branch off the topic of unorthodox Sega character picks though, how would everyone feel about Akira being playable? Sakurai seems to have a reverence for Virtua Fighter, with costumes in Smash 4 predating any other Sega series and Akira being chosen as an Assist Trophy (and one of the most fun ones, to boot). Sonic even has a deliberate Virtua Fighter reference in his moveset.

He's far from my first pick for Sega, but I think there's a precedent for it and I would honestly kinda eat it up if they stuck with this low poly look that Sakurai seems committed to. Do you guys think he'd maintain the more retro look if he was added?

I'm not the most well informed on Virtua Fighter but I feel like I've been neglecting it within the Sega conversation and it deserves more than that. At the very least I feel like Virtua Fighter is a sleeper pick for the next fighting game series in line.
Virtua Fighter definitely has the merit to get a character. It's legit one of the most influential games ever, things like the Playstation literally wouldn't exist without it. I'd be down with Akira getting in.

But... I guess I just have a hard time visualizing how they'd implement him? Tekken seemingly gave Sakurai a hard time as is, I already see VF being a tough sell just based off the fact that it's a series that prides itself on its realism. Like, I can't even imagine a recovery for him that doesn't involve the old moon jumps lmao. I just see Sakurai going for something like, say, Guilty Gear instead just because its mechanics are immediately a lot more transferable to Smash.

In the event that they did figure it out, though, we'd definitely get some cool music. Akira in particular has some good themes.

 

Speed Weed

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According to Sakurai?

And while we're on this talk on Dragon Ball, what do people think about the idea of Alex Kidd for Smash? His game was originally supposed to be a Dragon Ball game before they changed it. It reminds me if Mega Man originally supposed to be an Astro Boy game. Or even Donkey Kong originally supposed to be Popeye.

Just imagine how that all those characters that were originally supposed to be licensed characters all in one game.
Alex Kidd's cute, and I do think he's always a good character to have around in SEGA-specific crossovers, but yeah I'd be a bit disappointed if he was the next SEGA character. He's a bit plain mechanically, and he wouldn't grab me as much as a lot of other candidates. I'd rather they go for a series like Puyo Puyo, VF or Sakura Wars, which are much more significant to the history of the company while also bringing more interesting styles in my opinion. Even if we went the "retro mascot" route, I'd much rather see Opa-Opa - Japan loves Fantasy Zone, he's practically omnipresent in almost any kind of legacy material SEGA does, he's sort of a "face" for their legendary streak of 80s arcade hits, and he's super distinct mechanically and visually. Would love to see him.
To branch off the topic of unorthodox Sega character picks though, how would everyone feel about Akira being playable? Sakurai seems to have a reverence for Virtua Fighter, with costumes in Smash 4 predating any other Sega series and Akira being chosen as an Assist Trophy (and one of the most fun ones, to boot). Sonic even has a deliberate Virtua Fighter reference in his moveset.

He's far from my first pick for Sega, but I think there's a precedent for it and I would honestly kinda eat it up if they stuck with this low poly look that Sakurai seems committed to. Do you guys think he'd maintain the more retro look if he was added?

I'm not the most well informed on Virtua Fighter but I feel like I've been neglecting it within the Sega conversation and it deserves more than that. At the very least I feel like Virtua Fighter is a sleeper pick for the next fighting game series in line.
Yes, yes yes yes yes YES. I would love to see it happen. There's a very good reason VF is the only other real "classic" SEGA property represented in Smash - much has been said of Puyo Puyo's massive Japanese arcade success around these parts, and rightfully so, but if there's any other SEGA-adjacent series that deserves to be mentioned in the same breath in that regard (aside from more "casual" affairs like UFO Catchers, card arcade games, or their arcade conversion of Tetris), it's VF. It was a goddamn sensation - insanely popular in its day, topped the arcade charts and won awards for several years straight, and massively influential too: it birthed the 3D fighting game, yes, but during the rise of the polygon era, this was one of the major titles that felt like they were really putting their foot down and declaring that 3D is here and 3D is the future. VF2 was one of the first games to use motion capture tech for its characters, the Saturn's early success in Japan was based in big part off of the promise of "hey you can play Virtua Fighter on this thing" (and the Saturn port of VF2 is still their highest-selling console game over there to this day), and the thing that pushed Sony to go with making the PlayStation 3D-focused after a long period of indecision was them seeing VF and being like "ok yeah, this is the future." It was an absolutely ginormous success, is still treated with major reverence by the company and fans, and is maybe among the most iconic arcade games of all time over there.

So yeah it's a big deal.

But....all of this is me talking about why I think it deserves to be in and why I want it in. Not so much....how likely it is. I think it has the credentials, but I kind of have a sneaking suspicion that Sakurai feels the assist is the best role for Akira. I don't have much to base that off of, maybe it's what others have said above IRT implementation, but it's a gut feeling I have. There's also the matter of business - Ultimate Showdown was by all accounts a success, and despite some major criticisms it did show that there is still an audience for VF.....but since then it's been kind of radio silent, aside from the occasional Japan-only event and the producers cutting interviews going "trust us we have Stuff going on". In the meantime, SEGA has been hammering it in harder than ever that Sonic, Persona and RgG are their big 3, and while we have seen a major intitiative towards doing stuff with their old IP, it's currently very catered towards the US market. I've heard from others that there may be a possibility of internal staff just taking their sweet time with it due to the philosophical conundrum of following up on a series that's historically prided itself on innovation, but point is I'm currently unsure on what they're planning to do with stuff that's kind of on that inbetween tier of activity - not an evergreen pillar, but not a long-dead series that can be leveraged to show that You're Back In Business either - and I do unfortunately feel that VF finds itself there. Let's hope for the best.

As for design.....I do agree that the white gi isn't the most appealing option. About the retro look, I do wonder if they'd be willing to go for such an extreme level of throwback when designing a character - we've had other third-parties take heavy and very literal aesthetic inspiration from their classic outings as well, but this would almost be like making Mega Man his actual NES sprite. I feel like a good middle ground would be to give Akira his red and blue gi he wears sometimes:
akira-dengeki-bunko-climax-art2.png

I think this is a distinct, appealing design that helps Akira stand out from the other fighter dudes much more immediately while still feeling like a living breathing incarnation of the character. If nothing else, I do feel like the polygon look has to be in there somewhere - probably as an alt.

If nothing else, I'm super grateful we've gotten significant content for VF that does a great job of paying tribute to the series and SEGA's arcade heritage. I'd obviously like to see Akira playable, but what we have right now is pretty great too.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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And here I am as a big Shining Force fan. That said, game is pretty niche these days, so I'm unsurprised it doesn't get much love. XD Would help if it got worldwide releases again. <.<;
 

Perkilator

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You look at Alear's proposed moveset and it's really just a vehicle to represent a bunch of FE characters without actually adding them rather than actually letting Alear do their own thing.
Honestly, that’s a complaint I have about a lot of Alear concepts in general, just using them as a vehicle for other FE characters instead of just letting them shine in their own right. Especially when there’s a reason for them to Engage with the other four lords of Engage but that’s besides the point
 

Shinuto

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I will say that I admire the sheer tenacity it takes to think that cutting Yoshi of all characters is a good decision for a new Smash roster.

I mean, it's a ****ing awful idea and I have no clue how you could even think to do it. But it's certainly a choice of all time!
The reasons were dumb since it was about the Yoshi games not being good for awhile now and then they pull out a bunch of dormant old characters as newcomers
 

superprincess

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People prioritizing Wario over Yoshi will never not be weird. If you want to call Yoshi unimportant, sure, but if we're being so cut-happy that we're cutting Yoshi, Wario should also go.

Both will obviously stay forever, but Yoshi wins if we had to keep only one. He consistently shows up in the Super Mario series, often being one of the selling points of the games he's in (NSMB Wii, SMG2) and he has his own line of games that gets new entires semi-often, and actually sells quite well.

Wario in the Mario series... is just kinda spinoff fodder, being of a lower rank than even Daisy at this point. As for his own series, despite there being more games than Yoshi's, the Wario series still has less sales.

I'll also note that Yoshi was the post-credits teaser at the end of the Mario Movie, whereas Wario was nowhere to be seen.

Also, Super Nintendo World. Yoshi and even the likes of Daisy and Toad are included as "playable" characters over Wario. Yoshi is heavily featured and even has his own ride.

I'm not trying to argue for Wario getting cut, but if you're getting rid of Yoshi and trying to justify that... Wario should get the boot too imo. Yoshi's just more important.
 
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Scrimblo Bimblo

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Do you think is possible to top Ultimate's Roster in terms of actual quality and hype with downscaled 40-60 like Thorgi "attempted" to do here?
40? Absolutely not.
60? Maybe, but probably not. Ultimate has a ton of variety. It's kinda hard to have more variety with less characters...
 

Ivander

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Another day, another reminder that the chances of another Sega All-Stars Racing game is next to nil. :(

And the chances of either Racing or Transformed getting a UMvC3 modded upgrade via a dedicated community is also next to nil.
 
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7NATOR

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Being honest, the only Way I see a Roster with a Substantial amount of cuts working out is if Smash Straight up Prioritizes the Video Game Crossover aspect over it being a Nintendo game crossover

In that Alot of the Nintendo Veteran characters get Sacrificed for more new content from 3rd Parties, including ones already in the game and new Franchises, New Companies in the game as well. I'm also talking about Base game.

So doing hard cuts like Cutting Yoshi, Cutting Wario, Cutting Diddy, Cutting characters like Wii Fit, Ice Climbers, etc, but in exchange you have characters like Master Chief, Crash, Resident Evil character, League of Legends characters, Fortnite, etc. all in the base game, as well as keeping all the 3rd Party characters already in, and also maybe giving those franchises Newcomers as well (Shadow, Chun-Li, Riku, Jin, Alucard, etc).
 
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Shinuto

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Being honest, the only Way I see a Roster with a Substantial amount of cuts working out is if Smash Straight up Prioritizes the Video Game Crossover aspect over it being a Nintendo game crossover

In that Alot of the Nintendo Veteran characters get Sacrificed for more new content from 3rd Parties, including ones already in the game and new Franchises, New Companies in the game as well. I'm also talking about Base game.

So doing hard cuts like Cutting Yoshi, Cutting Wario, Cutting Diddy, Cutting characters like Wii Fit, Ice Climbers, etc, but in exchange you have characters like Master Chief, Crash, Resident Evil character, League of Legends characters, Fortnite, etc. all in the base game, as well as keeping all the 3rd Party characters already in, and also maybe giving those franchises Newcomers as well (Shadow, Chun-Li, Riku, Jin, Alucard, etc).
Yeah same, these people that propose cutting series representers and smash series mainstays to replace with let's be honest B tier at most Nintendo characters is not worth the cut character. We're at the point any Nintendo character not in yet is at best B tier and MOST are C and below, I still want em like Lip, Saki, Takamaru, Ashley and Ayumi but they shouldn't be in over Wii Fit, Yoshi, Diddy, Wario, Ice Climbers etc.
 

DarthEnderX

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perhaps if he debuted as a major character in Mario's series
Ah yes...the "major character" of being a glorified horse powerup. Up there in the Nintendo character pantheon with likes of Epona and Rambi.

You're too detatched to Yoshi. After all, you want him to stay forever and ever.
The burden of EiH is, once they're in, you have to accept even the lame-o's...

But I don't really see a roster where Dark Samus stays over him
There's real reason to cut Echoes unless the original is also being cut. They're free real estate.
 
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Gorgonzales

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Ah yes...the "major character" of being a glorified horse powerup. Up there in the Nintendo character pantheon with likes of Epona and Rambi.
That's a false equivalence. Epona and Rambi aren't playable in main games or even spinoffs of their own series. They don't have personalities either, and they're certainly not mainstays in a huge number of their series of origin's games.

It's Yoshi, there's no point in arguing about this no matter which convoluted way you're going to try and spin it.
 
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NintenRob

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Yoshi is just a generic mook, like Toad and Waddle Dee. He'll never be playable



Jokes aside. Yoshi is considered part of the core Mario cast. Like core core cast. He's playable in I think every single spin-off game I believe and is always up there with Mario and Peach and such with marketing. For Yoshi to be cut, the roster would have to shrink drastically and there would be no other Mario newcomers.

You can't cut Yoshi and add Pauline
You can't cut Yoshi and add Waluigi
You can't cut Yoshi and add Geno
You wouldn't even be able to add Toad. Yoshi outranks Toad.

Yoshi is a star in the Mario franchise, there's even a Yoshi ride at Nintendo World in Japan
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Side note but I never understand how the "generic mook" argument just didn't evaporate when a literal Piranha Plant got in. Like, its inclusion should have just straight-up obliterated any flimsy semblance of weight that argument even had, and everyone could move on. Guess old habits die hard.
It was iffy when Pokemon existed, but even moreso once we got Greninja and Incineroar, who weren't chosen due to the anime but simply due to the species itself being interesting.

PP sealed the deal even more. And I love it that way.

At the very least there is a specific Toad people want, not the general Species. It's just a name thing.
 

Gorgonzales

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I wasn't talking about his main games. I was talking about his debut, since you brought it up.
I brought up his debut to point out how long he's been a part of the series. He's evolved since then, but even then he's had a character of his own (Rambi and Epona don't live in their own houses or leave messages about how they go on quests to rescue their friends). He got his own game literally not too long after SMW anyway.

Looking forward to the inevitable argument where people go "but is Peach really necessary? I mean, she didn't even do anything in her debut game! Wow, people want this STATIC SPRITE in."
 

Guynamednelson

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Looking forward to the inevitable argument where people go "but is Peach really necessary? I mean, she didn't even do anything in her debut game! Wow, people want this STATIC SPRITE in."
:ultluigi:
Really? They thought Green Mario was worthy of the Elite Video Game Hall Of Fame? He's just Mario's sprites recolored! No, Luigi's Mansion doesn't count because...uh...
 

Speed Weed

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And here I am as a big Shining Force fan. That said, game is pretty niche these days, so I'm unsurprised it doesn't get much love. XD Would help if it got worldwide releases again. <.<;
FWIW I do think Shining Force is a wonderful series I'd love to see repped if we got some sort of big SEGA content blowout. I was very sad to hear of Yo****aka Tamaki's passing a few months ago, dude's art is fantastic and iconic

(EDIT: oh wow, piss off Smashboards)
Another day, another reminder that the chances of another Sega All-Stars Racing game is next to nil. :(

And the chances of either Racing or Transformed getting a UMvC3 modded upgrade via a dedicated community is also next to nil.
I should try to make another SEGA fighting game roster one of these days.....the previous attempts I've made in recent times have either felt pretty slapdash or had a specific gimmick to them
 
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7NATOR

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Well there is one important thing I'm curious on people's opinion about.

How Many Characters do you think will be Playable in the Next Smash?

We all have different opinions on whether Characters will get cut or not, who's getting cut if it happens, Which newcomers will be in, whether the game would be a Reboot or not, etc

But I want to know how many total characters do you think will be Playable in the Next Smash, Both for the Base Roster, and then the Final Count after DLC.

I Personally think at the least, the Main Base roster will have over 100 Characters, and There will probably be more DLC for this game than Smash Ultimate (12). What about you?
 

NintenRob

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Well there is one important thing I'm curious on people's opinion about.

How Many Characters do you think will be Playable in the Next Smash?

We all have different opinions on whether Characters will get cut or not, who's getting cut if it happens, Which newcomers will be in, whether the game would be a Reboot or not, etc

But I want to know how many total characters do you think will be Playable in the Next Smash, Both for the Base Roster, and then the Final Count after DLC.

I Personally think at the least, the Main Base roster will have over 100 Characters, and There will probably be more DLC for this game than Smash Ultimate (12). What about you?
Honestly? There are just too many unknowns right now. I'm leaning towards like a 60-70 range, in the same vain as Smash Wii U
 

Nabbitfan730

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If Smash 6 has 60 character roster similar to Ultimate Base but was organized into 30 dedicated to Nintendo picks with Original 8 being definite and 30 dedicated to Third-Parties as a compromised balance, would you be down?
 

Perkilator

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If Smash 6 has 60 character roster similar to Ultimate Base but was organized into 30 dedicated to Nintendo picks with Original 8 being definite and 30 dedicated to Third-Parties as a compromised balance, would you be down?
Eh…that’s more than the entirety of Ultimate’s 3rd parties including DLC, so TBH, nah.
 

NintenRob

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If Smash 6 has 60 character roster similar to Ultimate Base but was organized into 30 dedicated to Nintendo picks with Original 8 being definite and 30 dedicated to Third-Parties as a compromised balance, would you be down?
Definitely not. Guest characters are nice, They aren't why I play Smash Bros
 

AlRex

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I'm down for "Nintendo VS the World", but you'd probably have to call it something like that so people don't take it as a replacement for "regular Smash".
 

SPEN18

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It's the same song and dance, underestimating how much pull a new game is gonna get from a healthy crop of original additions from Nintendo's own, both expanding on existing franchises that fans have come to know and love and introducing those same fans to some new series that have made their own marks on Nintendo's library. This and underestimating how motivated Nintendo is to continue to promote the health and legacies of their properties through Smash.

A strong first party newcomer lineup is pretty much a cure-all, and honestly enough to sell a new game on its own if that's what it came to. Look around for just a single serious second, and you'll see that there is no dearth of viable, quality candidates. Making cuts to the contingent of guests and the back end of the first party roster is not going to make for an unrecoverable loss. The cuts will likely be much more significant than ever before, but I am convinced still within the tasteful, reasonable, and justifiable realm. I am equally convinced that getting out from under EiH's overbearance on Ult will be for the better rather than for the worse overall.
 

Swamp Sensei

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It's the same song and dance, underestimating how much pull a new game is gonna get from a healthy crop of original additions from Nintendo's own, both expanding on existing franchises that fans have come to know and love and introducing those same fans to some new series that have made their own marks on Nintendo's library. This and underestimating how motivated Nintendo is to continue to promote the health and legacies of their properties through Smash.

A strong first party newcomer lineup is pretty much a cure-all, and honestly enough to sell a new game on its own if that's what it came to. Look around for just a single serious second, and you'll see that there is no dearth of viable, quality candidates. Making cuts to the contingent of guests and the back end of the first party roster is not going to make for an unrecoverable loss. The cuts will likely be much more significant than ever before, but I am convinced still within the tasteful, reasonable, and justifiable realm. I am equally convinced that getting out from under EiH's overbearance on Ult will be for the better rather than for the worse overall.
I don't know where this came from.

We were just dunking on the idea of cutting Yoshi.
 

Louie G.

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People prioritizing Wario over Yoshi will never not be weird. If you want to call Yoshi unimportant, sure, but if we're being so cut-happy that we're cutting Yoshi, Wario should also go.
In Wario’s defense, his series is treated with a little more significance as of late and offers something pretty fresh. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say Warioware differentiates itself further from the Mario universe than Yoshi does. So when keeping Wario it feels like more of a bang for your buck. He’s edging a bit closer to the DKC camp.

Yoshi is definitely more important within Mario itself right now, but weighing it out separately I think the gap closes in. Wario has recently received a portal on Nintendo’s Japanese site alongside other major / heavily branded IPs. Could simply be for the recent release of Move It, but nonetheless. Neither series is without a Switch release but Wario has been on a roll lately.

Needless to say though, we’re splitting hairs on two characters who will never ever be cut. Quite frankly, these two have a lot in common. Both arguably hit peak main series popularity / prominence in the 90s, spun off into their own series, have a puzzle game…
 
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SPEN18

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I don't know where this came from.

We were just dunking on the idea of cutting Yoshi.
In response to comments suggesting that a cutdown roster is never going to match Ult's hype, or that going ham with third party additions is the only way to justify it.

I was also going to dunk on the idea of cutting Yoshi, but the post evolved and I cut that part out lol
 

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30 First party characters would be so awful. I would just stick with Ultimate honestly. Like the amount of cuts that would lead to would be too significant. Without even considering newcomers, you're looking at something like this

:ultmario::ultluigi::ultpeach::ultbowser::ultyoshi:
:ultlink::ultzelda::ultganondorf::ultdk::ultdiddy:
:ultpikachu::ultpokemontrainer::ultlucario::ultsamus::ultridley:
:ultkirby::ultmetaknight::ultkingdedede::ultolimar::ultpit:
:ultfox::ultness::ultfalcon::ultmarth::ultgnw:
:ultvillager::ultshulk::ultwiifittrainer::ultinkling::ultminmin

And that's 30. It's honestly pathetic. Just for this there's no Punch-Out or retros. Only one Fire Emblem. I cheated with Pokémon by having Trainer but that's really only one Pokémon. No K Rool. One Star Fox. No WARIO. No Puff. And that's again, no newcomers.
 
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