Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Swamp Sensei]

Maybe we should focus more on whether ideas are feasible or not instead of turning to petty arguments that assume a person's reason for wanting something.

These are starting to get close to attacks on people's character. I thought we stopped "purity" arguments ages ago.

 

[Noipoi]

I'd just prefer the next Smash to have its own identity, I suppose. I want it to feel like a new entry in the series, not an extension of the last one.

Every Smash game so far has a unique vibe to it, almost like its own personality. And I find that incredibly fascinating.

 

[Ivander]

I'd just prefer the next Smash to have its own identity, I suppose. I want it to feel like a new entry in the series, not an extension of the last one.

Every Smash game so far has a unique vibe to it, almost like its own personality. And I find that incredibly fascinating.

There's a part of me that agrees and is open to being surprised by something new, but there's also a part of me that wants some things to come back and be expanded upon because the concepts themselves are interesting, but don't feel up to their full potential.

But then again, I keep asking for Smash Run and Mooks back, so maybe that part of me that agrees isn't as gripping as the other part that wants stuff back and expanded upon.

 

[superprincess]

As opposed to...paying full price for the same content you already paid for, and then have the OLD content be drip-fed to you at a higher price. Which is what will happen with a new Smash game, when they start selling veterans back to you as DLC. Just like in Smash 4.

Oh yes, that sounds much better...

Except if they take that route, they'll have more time for more newcomers (about 15, as Brawl and SSB4 already showed), more new stages (around 20, compared to Ult's grand total of four) and brand new modes, gameplay mechanics, etc.

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. Just because they want "Everyone is Here" again, they...don't actually play the game? That doesn't make any sense to me.

A roster is important too. In fact, that's what draws fans to a fighting game. And with a big crossover series like Smash Bros, it should be no surprise that that's what's going to take up most the discussions. It doesn't mean people don't care about anything else but this is the biggest drawing point of the series and we'd rather see it get better, not get worse.

I came to this conclusion because a lot of people who want EiH again are also the type of people to never really discuss anything other than characters. They don't talk about Smash as a game, they talk about Smash as a cultural phenomenon, a rare celebration of gaming, instead of... a game. Which it is that. Just another game. It doesn't need to go above and beyond with its roster, it doesn't need to supersede its predecessor in quantity only, it has far more merits than that, that people who are only into hyping up the reveal trailers don't ever talk about.

Of course the roster is the biggest deal. It always was, even as far back as Melee. I'm just saying that people who only care about more characters joining the already huge cast with absolutely no omissions... they don't seem to care about the sacrifices made at cost of the game's other areas, in order to fulfill that wish of "more characters, more starpower, more recognizable faces, more franchises crossing over".

To me, Smash's crossover factor needs to be balanced with the fact that it's also a real game with a real budget and real developers with real constraints. It absolutely celebrates these franchises crossing over, but also has to stand on its own as a game. And those fans that I'm talking about just don't seem to care about that!

I'd also like to note that if anyone in particular feels called out by what I'm saying, it's not personal! I've been here for like a day, I barely know y'all. Just sharing my views ♡

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Shower thought.

Bombirdier should be included as a PokeBall Pokemon and it should take on Onix's attack from Smash 64.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Here's what I want to talk about for a bit.

Stages!!!

While I love Smash Ultimate. A part of me did wish we got more in the way of new stuff, and this is felt most with stages. Well, mostly with stages but I digress.


how many stages would you like to see return? Is there anything stopping them from porting all of Ultimates stages over, would you want them to port over every stage even if they could?

Would you rather see every franchise get new stages? Like with Brawl and Melee?

Would you prefer a mix, like Smash Wii U and Smash 3DS (talking about them separately here) where some franchises got a new stage and some just had old ones.

What franchises should get a new stage? What franchises are just fine with older stages? What new franchises should get a stage even if they don't get a character?

In my perfect world, the only returning stage would be Temple. Everything else is brand new.

I'd like to see a nice spread of new stages in general. Old to new games, popular to obscure franchises, etc.

As for specifics, I only really want to see a stage based on Bramble Blast, a minecart level, or both. The latter especially if you ride the carts between phases of the stage.

Kirby needs modern stages, so my picks would be Lor Starcutter (the interior with a giant window to see locales from RtdL outside as you travel) and Wondaria Dream Parade. One's a well-established location from a modern Kirby title and another is just a plain great spectacle and locale from Forgotten Land.

Last minute edit but Studiopolis Zone from Mania would look absolutely BONKERS in HD. No shortage of gimmicks to pull from that level, either.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I just want EIH to happen again (even if I know it won't) because a number of characters I like to play as aren't safe returns. :V

 

[Wonder Smash]

Except if they take that route, they'll have more time for more newcomers (about 15, as Brawl and SSB4 already showed), more new stages (around 20, compared to Ult's grand total of four) and brand new modes, gameplay mechanics, etc.

I came to this conclusion because a lot of people who want EiH again are also the type of people to never really discuss anything other than characters. They don't talk about Smash as a game, they talk about Smash as a cultural phenomenon, a rare celebration of gaming, instead of... a game. Which it is that. Just another game. It doesn't need to go above and beyond with its roster, it doesn't need to supersede its predecessor in quantity only, it has far more merits than that, that people who are only into hyping up the reveal trailers don't ever talk about.

Of course the roster is the biggest deal. It always was, even as far back as Melee. I'm just saying that people who only care about more characters joining the already huge cast with absolutely no omissions... they don't seem to care about the sacrifices made at cost of the game's other areas, in order to fulfill that wish of "more characters, more starpower, more recognizable faces, more franchises crossing over".

To me, Smash's crossover factor needs to be balanced with the fact that it's also a real game with a real budget and real developers with real constraints. It absolutely celebrates these franchises crossing over, but also has to stand on its own as a game. And those fans that I'm talking about just don't seem to care about that!

I'd also like to note that if anyone in particular feels called out by what I'm saying, it's not personal! I've been here for like a day, I barely know y'all. Just sharing my views ♡

They do care about the other features but they care about the roster more. Like I said, it's the biggest draw of the series, so it's the most talked about thing when it comes to it. It also doesn't mean that they don't play any other modes or something. It's just that, once again, the characters are the most exciting parts about the series.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Let's switch it around a bit.

Are there any stages introduced in Ultimate that you don't like? Why?

Personally I think Minecraft World is... Very underwhelming. With something as creatively open as Minecraft, the stage is very bland. And I don't mean simple, I mean bland. Cloud Sea of Alrest is simple, but it stands out in it's layout and it's fun to play on.

 

[YeppersPeppers]

Let's switch it around a bit.

Are there any stages introduced in Ultimate that you don't like? Why?

Personally I think Minecraft World is... Very underwhelming. With something as creatively open as Minecraft, the stage is very bland. And I don't mean simple, I mean bland. Cloud Sea of Alrest is simple, but it stands out in it's layout and it's fun to play on.

Garreg Mach Monastery is incredibly dull to me. Four walk-off areas that varying levels of platforms ranging from "meh" to "this is lame". It's nice that we're fighting in the various areas instead of a floating platform in front of something, but nothing interesting is remotely done with it.

 

[Perkilator]

Let's switch it around a bit.

Are there any stages introduced in Ultimate that you don't like? Why?

Cloud Sea of Alrest, purely because I find it too small even for 1v1 matches.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Garreg Mach Monastery is incredibly dull to me. Four walk-off areas that varying levels of platforms ranging from "meh" to "this is lame". It's nice that we're fighting in the various areas instead of a floating platform in front of something, but nothing interesting is remotely done with it.

Honestly part of me wants to give Garreg Mach a pass because it's one of the few actual Fire Emblem locations to make it in.

 

[Serix]

Ultimate could have benefited from getting more modes as DLC but they kind of just stopped after HRC. I miss All-Star, and Smash Run always felt held back by the 3DS.

 

[Ivander]

Let's switch it around a bit.

Are there any stages introduced in Ultimate that you don't like? Why?

Personally I think Minecraft World is... Very underwhelming. With something as creatively open as Minecraft, the stage is very bland. And I don't mean simple, I mean bland. Cloud Sea of Alrest is simple, but it stands out in it's layout and it's fun to play on.

I guess the closest would be the Coliseum. Probably because it's now in the same game with Arena Ferox, which is somewhat aesthetically the same and has the same gimmick, but in an actual area from one of the games instead of being a original stage made to reference the recurring Arena from almost all the games...all it just does is remind me that we don't have an awful lot of outright Fire Emblem locations as stages and that Fates missed out on a stage.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I guess the closest would be the Coliseum. Probably because it's now in the same game with Arena Ferox, which is somewhat aesthetically the same and has the same gimmick, but in an actual area from one of the games instead of being a original stage made to reference the recurring Arena from almost all the games...all it just does is remind me that we don't have an awful lot of outright Fire Emblem locations as stages and that Fates missed out on a stage.

While all of this is true.

Coliseum was not introduced in Ultimate.

 

[Serix]

Let's switch it around a bit.

Are there any stages introduced in Ultimate that you don't like? Why?

Personally I think Minecraft World is... Very underwhelming. With something as creatively open as Minecraft, the stage is very bland. And I don't mean simple, I mean bland. Cloud Sea of Alrest is simple, but it stands out in it's layout and it's fun to play on.

Not really a dislike, but I always thought The World That Never Was would make for a cooler KH stage than Hollow Bastion. But since Sora is mostly based on the first game it makes more sense.

 

[Sucumbio]

Let's switch it around a bit.

Are there any stages introduced in Ultimate that you don't like? Why?

Personally I think Minecraft World is... Very underwhelming. With something as creatively open as Minecraft, the stage is very bland. And I don't mean simple, I mean bland. Cloud Sea of Alrest is simple, but it stands out in it's layout and it's fun to play on.

Yes actually, the omega version of Spiral Mountain. For whatever reason they kept the spiraling part but with the foreground part staying the same it is really nauseating!

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Let's switch it around a bit.

Are there any stages introduced in Ultimate that you don't like? Why?

I guess Mementos because I find it garish and hard on the eyes unless it's the P3 variant and to a lesser extent, the P4 variant.

I like red, but the "default" Mementos is like, too much red.

 

[Ivander]

While all of this is true.

Coliseum was not introduced in Ultimate.

I know. It was introduced in Smash 4 on the Wii U while Arena Ferox is on the 3DS. When each one was separate, I didn't mind it too much. But now with Ultimate, both stages are together in the same game and they feel...same-y, since they both take place in Arenas and have the same stage gimmick, aside from one being on a platform and the other being a walk-off. And I would rather keep Arena Ferox over Coliseum since the former is an actual location from one of the games whereas the latter was more OC'd to fit the theme of the recurring intractable buildings throughout the series.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Cloud sea of alrest is definitely the worst of the new stages

 

[SPEN18]

As opposed to...paying full price for the same content you already paid for, and then have the OLD content be drip-fed to you at a higher price. Which is what will happen with a new Smash game, when they start selling veterans back to you as DLC. Just like in Smash 4.

It's paying full price for significantly updated old content in addition to lots of brand new content. There will be some old content "drip-fed" at a higher price, but it will be very limited, likely primarily to fighters who either (1) got worked on but weren't quite finished or (2) could only be negotiated as DLC. In Smash 4 there were only 3 vets as DLC, with one of them free for a lot of people and two out of the three not being in Brawl (hence new for a lot of people).

 

[DarthEnderX]

You'll still get those sensa tional newcomer reveals, but suddenly every veteran who is revealed will generate some hype, especially since a lot more characters are in danger of being cut than before (I think a lot more than some are willing to admit)

I don't get that mindset. Knowing that EVERY character revealed for Ultimate was going to be a completely new character, and that it wasn't going to cost me ANY returning characters, was WAY more hype for me than I've been for any other fighting game. Where 90% of the "reveals" are just "This guy's back again".

Contrast that to, say, Street Fighter 6. A game I also love. But them going "Guess who's paying extra for Akuma again?!" just doesn't compare to the excitement of a Smash Ultimate newcomer.

Not saying you're wrong. I'm sure lot of people feel that way. I just don't understand them.

If they just added onto Ultimate I'd miss out on these upgrades and I'd rather not get everyone back so they can add these things.

Would you though? There's nothing preventing them from adding that stuff to a new version of Ultimate.

People have this weird notion about the immutability of Smash's game code for some reason. Games get changes like that all the time. Fighting games like DBFZ and SamSho are even getting rollback added without even doing a new release.

In my perfect world, the only returning stage would be Temple. Everything else is brand new.

Your perfect world sounds post-apocalyptic to me...

 

[SPEN18]

Also, Cloud Sea of Alrest is amazing. The layout is great and just enough to be unique while keeping it a simple stage. The concept of fighting on Gramps' back is awesome and you get to see some of the other titans in the background. The Cloud Sea itself is a fitting enough location to represent XBC2. What's wrong with it?

 

[superprincess]

I don't get that mindset. Knowing that EVERY character revealed for Ultimate was going to be a completely new character, and that it wasn't going to cost me ANY returning characters, was WAY more hype for me than I've been for any other fighting game. Where 90% of the "reveals" are just "This guy's back again".

Contrast that to, say, Street Fighter 6. A game I also love. But them going "Guess who's paying extra for Akuma again?!" just doesn't compare to the excitement of a Smash Ultimate newcomer.

Not saying, you're wrong. I'm sure lot of people feel that way. I just don't understand them.

Would you though? There's nothing preventing them from adding that stuff to a new version of Ultimate.

People have this weird notion about the immutability of Smash's game code for some reason. Games get changes like that all the time. Fighting games like DBFZ and SamSho are even getting rollback added without even doing a new release.

I mean, different people want different things. You'd be fine with a rehash of Ultimate, but some people wouldn't. We want new graphics, modes, new mechanics, updates to existing characters, etc. And just a brand new feel. Every Smash has its own feel, it'd suck (imo) if the next one just said "Hey, we didn't know how to evolve, so here's Ultimate again". I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Also, wasn't this exactly the same conversation we were having post-SSB4/pre-Ultimate? That they'd just port SSB4 to the newest system because it just had so much content.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I'd also like to note that if anyone in particular feels called out by what I'm saying, it's not personal! I've been here for like a day, I barely know y'all. Just sharing my views ♡

Well since you're new, allow me to share MY views...

Also, wasn't this exactly the same conversation we were having post-SSB4/pre-Ultimate? That they'd just port SSB4 to the newest system because it just had so much content.

And they kinda did. And it was the best Smash ever.

 

[superprincess]

And they kinda did. And it was the best Smash ever.

If Ultimate is your definition of a port... Ouuu...
Anyways, yeah, Ultimate is the best multiplayer party game in the series

 

[DarthEnderX]

What IS Sonic x Shadow Generations?

Is it just a port of Generations with new Shadow stages?

If Ultimate is your definition of a port...

It's obviously not. But a LOT of 4's assets were reused in Ultimate. Especially character animations. It's a huge part of why EiH was even possible.

 

[superprincess]

It's obviously not. But a LOT of 4's assets were reused in Ultimate. Especially character animations. It's a huge part of why EiH was even possible.

And with some of those assets being over 10 years old by now...
Let's start anew

 

[Arcanir]

Let's switch it around a bit.

Are there any stages introduced in Ultimate that you don't like? Why?

Personally I think Minecraft World is... Very underwhelming. With something as creatively open as Minecraft, the stage is very bland. And I don't mean simple, I mean bland. Cloud Sea of Alrest is simple, but it stands out in it's layout and it's fun to play on.

I'll second the Minecraft stage. It's the only one of the new set I find myself struggling to remember whereas the other stages has some standout elements that I can immediately recall.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What IS Sonic x Shadow Generations?

Is it just a port of Generations with new Shadow stages?

It's obviously not. But a LOT of 4's assets were reused in Ultimate. Especially character animations. It's a huge part of why EiH was even possible.

Sonic X Shadow Generations is essentially the Sonic version of Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury.

They're porting Sonic Generations but also packing a new game with it too.

 

[Sucumbio]

Would you though? There's nothing preventing them from adding that stuff to a new version of Ultimate.

People have this weird notion about the immutability of Smash's game code for some reason. Games get changes like that all the time. Fighting games like DBFZ and SamSho are even getting rollback added without even doing a new release.

Well for instance even despite smash 4 and Ultimate sharing many assets and animations and pretty much the same dev team, the games are still different (playing 4 after years of Ultimate it's crazy just how different they are), maybe not so much aesthetically but in terms of gameplay enough to require more than just updating what was there but having to do it up new. With the advent of the switch 2 and the rumored power of a PS4, there's likely going to be a similar requirement of reprogramming the game. I'm not even sure the older assets are even viable in this scenario. Also I'd hesitate to compare Smash with other projects especially when looking at their net code. For whatever reason this aspect has been a pressure point for them and I think rollback is going to need integration at a fundamental level in the engine rather than as an add on. I think they should actually start it as an online platformer then work backwards to have a local mode. But Sakurai has said be see no value in online play which is a disappointment. But anyway not the point really, more that it's probably going to be more clear when we learn exactly what the next console even is.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Also, Cloud Sea of Alrest is amazing. The layout is great and just enough to be unique while keeping it a simple stage. The concept of fighting on Gramps' back is awesome and you get to see some of the other titans in the background. The Cloud Sea itself is a fitting enough location to represent XBC2. What's wrong with it?

Its too ****ing small is the problem.

The complete opposite problem that Gaur Plains has for me where its too big.

I dont like the Xenoblade stages that much

 

[NintenRob]

Cloud Sea is my choice as well. Xenoblade 2 is full of jaw dropping location that the Cloud Sea is underwhelming.

 

[PeridotGX]

So, this is a big year for Shadow the Hedgehog. The Generations rerelease basically has a separate Shadow game taped on, and he's going to be a main character in the third Sonic movie. He hasn't been this important since the mid 2000's.

...is the echo finally happening?

 

[DarthEnderX]

...is the echo finally happening?

It's time!

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Let's switch it around a bit.

Are there any stages introduced in Ultimate that you don't like? Why?

Personally I think Minecraft World is... Very underwhelming. With something as creatively open as Minecraft, the stage is very bland. And I don't mean simple, I mean bland. Cloud Sea of Alrest is simple, but it stands out in it's layout and it's fun to play on.

There's just two or three that I really don't like to play on: Moray Towers, I never understand which ramp my character is going to move onto next, it's too vertical, too big, and every floor is inclined. Fights there just don't flow well. The little solid platform at the penultimate floor that you can use for early KOs by having people bounce against it from below is very neat though!
And then Great Plateau and Cloud Sea which both feel too cramped. Great Plateau gets better after you destroy the roof, but as a BotW stage it's kinda underwhelming.

The Monastery also really feels like they didn't have time to actually design a stage, but playing on it doesn't feel constricting so it gets a pass.

 

[Serix]

Let's switch it around a bit.

Are there any stages introduced in Ultimate that you don't like? Why?

Personally I think Minecraft World is... Very underwhelming. With something as creatively open as Minecraft, the stage is very bland. And I don't mean simple, I mean bland. Cloud Sea of Alrest is simple, but it stands out in it's layout and it's fun to play on.

Minecraft World would have been cooler if the mobs in the background could actually interfere with the fight. They could have at least had a creeper wander onto the foreground and explode.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Except if they take that route, they'll have more time for more newcomers (about 15, as Brawl and SSB4 already showed), more new stages (around 20, compared to Ult's grand total of four) and brand new modes, gameplay mechanics, etc.

?

Ultimate added: Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Wolf, Ice Climbers, Pichu, Young Link, Inkling, Ridley, Isabelle, Incineroar, Simon and King K. Rool.
That's 13 characters that weren't in the previous game. The usual amount of newcomers more or less.
(+ the echo fighters. Ken and Chrom definitely do enough to feel like their own characters and Dark Samus has a ton of new animations, but I won't count them)
(+ the 12 DLC characters but let's say they don't count for some reason)

It also added an absurd amount of stages. Making most of those legacy ones is just a choice. They made a ton of stages and they obviously worked a lot on it. The Melee, Brawl and 3DS stages in particular all had to undergo a huuuuuge makeover or probably were straight-up remade from scratch.

It also changed a lot of gameplay mechanics compared to Smash 4. Everyone is faster, balloon knockback, universal jump squat, directional air-dodge (and only one air dodge per jump), perfect shield works differently, you can keep smash attacks fully charged.

Single player modes get more subjective but in my experience Ultimate has the best single player in series history.
It offers for the first time a (somewhat) reliable score attack system that makes everything extremely replayable, and it also offers 1400 unique, tailor-made fights.

Really can't see what the big price Ultimate had to pay to do EiH would be... If we're doing ad hominems, just say you miss Subspace Emissary.

 

[NintenRob]

?

Ultimate added: Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Wolf, Ice Climbers, Pichu, Young Link, Inkling, Ridley, Isabelle, Incineroar, Simon and King K. Rool.
That's 13 characters that weren't in the previous game. The usual amount of newcomers more or less.
(+ the echo fighters. Ken and Chrom definitely do enough to feel like their own characters and Dark Samus has a ton of new animations, but I won't count them)
(+ the 12 DLC characters but let's say they don't count for some reason)

It also added an absurd amount of stages. Making most of those legacy ones is just a choice. They made a ton of stages and they obviously worked a lot on it. The Melee, Brawl and 3DS stages in particular all had to undergo a huuuuuge makeover or probably were straight-up remade from scratch.

It also changed a lot of gameplay mechanics compared to Smash 4. Everyone is faster, balloon knockback, universal jump squat, directional air-dodge (and only one air dodge per jump), perfect shield works differently, you can keep smash attacks fully charged.

Single player modes get more subjective but in my experience Ultimate has the best single player in series history.
It offers for the first time a (somewhat) reliable score attack system that makes everything extremely replayable, and it also offers 1400 unique, tailor-made fights.

Really can't see what the big price Ultimate had to pay to do EiH would be... If we're doing ad hominems, just say you miss Subspace Emissary.

Just to emphasize the point, there was omega forms of every stage. Each one of those would have taken it's own time

 

[DarthEnderX]

there was omega forms of every stage. Each one of those would have taken it's own time

I mean...c'mon. It's the same single platform for every stage. How long do you think that really took?