Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[cashregister9]

Seriously though Embracer group is like, comically evil

They are called the ****ing Embracer Group. That is the name of a cult in a cheap horror movie or a group of evil aliens in a Doctor Who episode.

 

[Gengar84]

It’s a shame because Square-Enix hasn’t done anything with Legacy of Kain for nearly 20 years. I was excited that we might finally see something of the franchise again under new ownership. Embracer Group also owns Darksiders, which I enjoyed and love the style. I had a ton of fun with Borderlands 2 and 3 too.

 

[fogbadge]

Seriously though Embracer group is like, comically evil

They are called the ****ing Embracer Group. That is the name of a cult in a cheap horror movie or a group of evil aliens in a Doctor Who episode.

hey doctor who prefers to make up words for aliens

 

[Gengar84]

I think I’m cursed because so many of my favorite properties end up in scummy ownership. Whether that’s WarCraft and StarCraft with everything going on at Blizzard and now Legacy of Kain, Borderlands, and Darksiders with Embracer (though to be fair, Borderlands was always under scummy ownership). At least there’s no controversy surrounding RARE that I’m aware of. I wonder why so many of these seem to be western developers and you rarely hear this kind of thing from Japanese companies.

 

[SPEN18]

This might seem like a weird question, but why does this site often report on Delzethin videos? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems strange to treat X random youtuber's video series as front-page news? Is Delzethin affiliated with the site in some way?

 

[fogbadge]

At least there’s no controversy surrounding RARE that I’m aware of.

well they are British so any controversy they have would be quite weird

 

[Will]

I guess they were both owned by Square-Enix at one point but since that’s no longer the case for Lara, I don’t think either impacts the others chances at all.

TIL Lara is no longer a Square rep My bad

 

[Gengar84]

This might seem like a weird question, but why does this site often report on Delzethin videos? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems strange to treat X random youtuber's video series as front-page news? Is Delzethin affiliated with the site in some way?

Delzethin posts on this site occasionally so it makes sense. Even though I disagree with a lot of his choices, his videos are always really well thought out and interesting to watch. I’m still never forgiving the “wild roster” though. Any roster that cuts Ganondorf and Meta Knight is a no go for me. I don’t mean “never forgiving” literally of course, but that was a baffling choice to me. I was totally on board with Lycanroc though even though Golisopod would have been my top choice for Alola.

 

[SPEN18]

Delzethin posts on this site occasionally so it makes sense. Even though I disagree with a lot of his choices, his videos are always really well thought out and interesting to watch. I’m still never forgiving the “wild roster” though. Any roster that cuts Ganondorf and Meta Knight is a no go for me. I don’t mean “never forgiving” literally of course, but that was a baffling choice to me.

I know he posts on the site, but if that's all it takes then it's a very low bar to get free plugs for your channel from here. Like, if he is just another user then it's still strange to me.

I also disagree with a lot of his takes (out of what I've seen). But I've been curious about this regardless.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Delzethin posts on this site occasionally so it makes sense. Even though I disagree with a lot of his choices, his videos are always really well thought out and interesting to watch. I’m still never forgiving the “wild roster” though. Any roster that cuts Ganondorf and Meta Knight is a no go for me. I don’t mean “never forgiving” literally of course, but that was a baffling choice to me. I was totally on board with Lycanroc though even though Golisopod would have been my top choice for Alola.

the wild roster wasn't that big of a deal and he did say that veterans would be added over time. people are too comfortable with the idea that x or y character just "HAS to be there!" when in reality, Nintendo can prioritize whoever they want. I'm not Delzethin's super fan or anything (I don't like how often he gives cinematic final smashes to characters), I just thought it was a fine video.

 

[Gengar84]

the wild roster wasn't that big of a deal and he did say that veterans would be added over time. people are too comfortable with the idea that x or y character just "HAS to be there!" when in reality, Nintendo can prioritize whoever they want. I'm not Delzethin's super fan or anything (I don't like how often he gives cinematic final smashes to characters), I just thought it was a fine video.

I’m mostly referring to the fact that Ganondorf is one of my top two favorite Smash characters and Metaknight is pretty far up there too. Not saying that either character absolutely has to be there but they would be odd omissions. Like I said, I didn’t mean it literally, but I would have been very disappointed if that’s what they went with.

 

[superprincess]

the wild roster wasn't that big of a deal and he did say that veterans would be added over time. people are too comfortable with the idea that x or y character just "HAS to be there!" when in reality, Nintendo can prioritize whoever they want. I'm not Delzethin's super fan or anything (I don't like how often he gives cinematic final smashes to characters), I just thought it was a fine video.

I often don't agree with the "Smash can't exist without XY characters" but when it comes to Ganondorf and Meta Knight... they're Nintendo All-Stars and staples to Smash itself. I'm not saying it wouldn't be Smash without them, but their absence would definitely feel wrong.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I often don't agree with the "Smash can't exist without XY characters" but when it comes to Ganondorf and Meta Knight... they're Nintendo All-Stars and staples to Smash itself. I'm not saying it wouldn't be Smash without them, but their absence would definitely feel wrong.

I'd imagine they'd be the first characters prioritized to return. And honestly, Ganondorf's absence could easily be chalked up to the fact that he would have to be developed like a newcomer if they were going to be super adamant on decloning him, so he could use the extra dev time.

 

[fogbadge]

I know he posts on the site, but if that's all it takes then it's a very low bar to get free plugs for your channel from here. Like, if he is just another user then it's still strange to me.

I also disagree with a lot of his takes (out of what I've seen). But I've been curious about this regardless.

yeah, i post on here all the time and you guys never plug my radio show

 

[superprincess]

I'd imagine they'd be the first characters prioritized to return. And honestly, Ganondorf's absence could easily be chalked up to the fact that he would have to be developed like a newcomer if they were going to be super adamant on decloning him, so he could use the extra dev time.

No matter what form his moveset takes, whether Falcondorf returns or they redesign him totally, some form of Ganon(dorf) just has to be there. He is the main villain of one of Nintendo's most successful franchises. Not to mention the Legend of Zelda series has come across newfound relevancy and acclaim with BOTW and TOTK. They have to have their villain in Smash.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

the wild roster wasn't that big of a deal and he did say that veterans would be added over time. people are too comfortable with the idea that x or y character just "HAS to be there!" when in reality, Nintendo can prioritize whoever they want. I'm not Delzethin's super fan or anything (I don't like how often he gives cinematic final smashes to characters), I just thought it was a fine video.

Honestly I disagree.

I think people don't value grandfathered in characters enough.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

yeah, i post on here all the time and you guys never plug my radio show

Yes but

 

[Gorgonzales]

Honestly I disagree.

I think people don't value grandfathered in characters enough.

jigglypuff and ness were on the chopping block (multiple times in jiggs' case) before getting lucky and making it in, so in my opinion legacy isn't enough to save a character. I'll just leave it at that

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Honestly I disagree.

I think people don't value grandfathered in characters enough.

I'd say it's a mix of both.

Whichever suits their argument at the time.
Either they're valued way too much and are seen as untouchable compared to others just because those others happened to debut later in the franchise, or they're valued too little to the point they deliberately ignore why they were included in the first place as if they never mattered at all.

 

[Sucumbio]

This might seem like a weird question, but why does this site often report on Delzethin videos? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems strange to treat X random youtuber's video series as front-page news? Is Delzethin affiliated with the site in some way?

His videos are good for the Smash scene especially for Speculation so it is also good for our News section, he's got 28k subs, he's cranking content relatively consistently. Even though he's a long time member here I'm pretty sure we'd still be writing articles showcasing his work because basically he's the most popular one doing it and with the high quality and depth to which he does. (Just my take not an official "reason" or anything you'd prolly need to and Zerp .)

 

[RileyXY1]

jigglypuff and ness were on the chopping block (multiple times in jiggs' case) before getting lucky and making it in, so in my opinion legacy isn't enough to save a character. I'll just leave it at that

Although that was Melee and Brawl, back when Smash legacy was a little less defined than it is now. Ness even came back for Brawl when virtually the entire Smash community thought that he was getting cut. Ness is most likely staying anyways due to how big Earthbound is for a series that only has three games.

 

[NintenRob]

This might seem like a weird question, but why does this site often report on Delzethin videos? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems strange to treat X random youtuber's video series as front-page news? Is Delzethin affiliated with the site in some way?

The more important question is how do I get my videos reported on the front page? I'm hoping to make a lot of Smash Bros videos in the future and would love the help fighting the algorithm

Cough self plug cough

 

[smashkirby]

Ok, here's the complete list of suspicious ATs/Mii costumes/4 star spirits/bosses:

-Bomberman
-Krystal
-Alucard
-Isaac
-Zero
-Shovel Knight
-Black Knight
-Knuckles
-Shadow
-Tails
-Sukapon
-Skull Mid
-Midna
-Ghirahim
-Ashley
-Takamaru
-Waluigi
-Lyn
-Akira
-Saki
-Squid Sisters
-Samurai Goroh
-Spring Man
-Guile
-Gray Fox
-Prince of Sable
-Altair
-Arthur
-Chibi Robo
-Cuphead
-Dante
-Dixie Kong
-Doom Slayer
-Dragonborn
-Dunban
-Geno
-Goemon
-Heihachi
-Iori
-Jacky Briant
-Lip
-Lloyd
-Marx
-Nakoruru
-Octoling
-Ray Mk III
-Rabbid
-Sans
-Shantae
-Monster Hunter
-Toad
-Travis
-Vault Boy
-Dillon
-Tifa
-Barret
-Aerith
-Viridi
-Pauline
-Black Shadow
-Leon / Jill / Chris / Wesker

You could build a couple of amazing newcomer line-ups just pulling from this list

Also, I've noticed that every Legend Spirit who's a popular character also has either an AT or a Mii Costume, sometimes both.
Black Shadow and Pauline are pretty much the only exceptions.

Wow! Ngl, this is a list of newcomers I could really get behind. I agree, this list of characters alone is a pretty great line-up of characters to pick from, although I'd personally add:

Tiki (I'd like to think her Manakete form could be used somehow)
Dillon (could borrow some stuff from Sonic, in addition to weapons from his games)
Barbara (We still don't have a music-based character, to my memory)
Excitebiker (Sakurai at least had them in consideration)

 

[superprincess]

When it comes to "grandfathered" or legacy characters, people are largely inconsistent. People often defend Ness, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers and Mr. G&W, but propose others like Sheik, Falco, Roy and R.O.B. should be cut. There's many excuses that crop up every now and then, but it mostly comes down to relevance. The thing is, all those characters are irrelevant, so there really isn't much of an argument to be made as to why some should stay over the rest.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Idk how important the number of stars are for spirits in terms of their future chances. Rayman, Bandana Dee, Shovel Knight, and shantae (not including the later two's AT or Mii) are all 3 star spirits that Nintendo knows were (and still are in Rayman and Dee's case, I don't keep up too much on the other two) popular ballot/fan picks.

Probably some more popular picks that only got 3 stars those are just the ones I know of off the top of my head.

 

[Kirbeh]

I don't even think, it's necessarily relevance, or rather it's relevance in their own perspective. In the end, people just lump all the characters they're less invested in together and create reasons as to why they should be cut. The same is true for who should stay.

Neither side is technically wrong either, you can come up with reasonable arguments for or against most characters but where people stand is ultimately about want they personally want over what is "objective." And there is no real objective in the conversation to begin with.

 

[superprincess]

Idk how important the number of stars are for spirits in terms of their future chances. Rayman, Bandana Dee, Shovel Knight, and shantae (not including the later two's AT or Mii) are all 3 star spirits that Nintendo knows were (and still are in Rayman and Dee's case, I don't keep up too much on the other two) popular ballot/fan picks.

Probably some more popular picks that only got 3 stars those are just the ones I know of off the top of my head.

Looking towards spirits' star ratings to predict newcomers has to be the biggest strawman theory I've seen recently.

 

[Serix]

I kind of have a good feeling we're finally going to get a Tales of character next game. It just feels like it's time.

 

[SPEN18]

When it comes to "grandfathered" or legacy characters, people are largely inconsistent. People often defend Ness, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers and Mr. G&W, but propose others like Sheik, Falco, Roy and R.O.B. should be cut. There's many excuses that crop up every now and then, but it mostly comes down to relevance. The thing is, all those characters are irrelevant, so there really isn't much of an argument to be made as to why some should stay over the rest.

There's no reason to lump such a large class of characters together. Legacy characters have different reasons for staying or going beyond just the simple fact of them being legacy characters. For example, some are more popular than others, some are the sole reps for their series while others are not, some are clones while others are not, some appeared in better-selling or more significant games than others, and none of them have the same set of reasonings that led to them being added in the first place.

Point is, it's perfectly valid to argue in favor of some of these returning and not in favor of others. But yes, if you're just going to say "they're grandfathered in now so they should stay" or "they're not relevant so they should go," then that alone is not a substantive nor likely to be consistent argument.

 

[superprincess]

There's no reason to lump such a large class of characters together. Legacy characters have different reasons for staying or going beyond just the simple fact of them being legacy characters. For example, some are more popular than others, some are the sole reps for their series while others are not, some are clones while others are not, some appeared in better-selling or more significant games than others, and none of them have the same set of reasonings that led to them being added in the first place.

Point is, it's perfectly valid to argue in favor of some of these returning and not in favor of others. But yes, if you're just going to say "they're grandfathered in now so they should stay" or "they're not relevant so they should go," then that alone is not a substantive nor likely to be consistent argument.

Oh I totally agree that all of these have different reasons to stay or go. It's just that fans often seem to use double standards and use legacy as an argument for some characters, whereas they don't factor it in for others.

For example, some argue that Ice Climbers' irrelevance is offset by their Smash legacy. However Sheik is often proposed as an "obvious cut" because she's irrelevant, hasn't been in a (mainline) game since '99, etc, completely ignoring her Smash history & unique playstyle as Smash's token ninja fighter.

 

[SPEN18]

Oh I totally agree that all of these have different reasons to stay or go. It's just that fans often seem to use double standards and use legacy as an argument for some characters, whereas they don't factor it in for others.

For example, some argue that Ice Climbers' irrelevance is offset by their Smash legacy. However Sheik is often proposed as an "obvious cut" because she's irrelevant, hasn't been in a (mainline) game since '99, etc, completely ignoring her Smash history & unique playstyle as Smash's token ninja fighter.

Right, the issue is consistency. Inevitably some people will value the "Smash legacy" component more than others, but if you're going to factor that in then you have to do so for everybody. In my personal opinion, this makes it not particularly useful in ranking characters by priority, and too often just a mechanism for arguing against cuts in general rather than anything pertaining to a specific character.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

.....it's really hard to temper my expectations at this moment given the recent announcement.

 

[Perkilator]

.....it's really hard to temper my expectations at this moment given the recent announcement.

What announcement?

 

[Speed Weed]

Holy **** y'all did you see that they showed footage of Sonic and Shadow making out for 5 minutes straight

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

What announcement?

SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG IS A *****-ASS ************-

(I couldn't resist because the set-up was perfect)

 

[HyperSomari64]

The "X" in Sonic X Shadow Generations made me believe that Project X Zone 3 was real, but then i realized that it will never happen (for many reasons).

I hope we get a scene where Shadow marries Sonic.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The "X" in Sonic X Shadow Generations made me believe that Project X Zone 3 was real, but it will never happen (for many reasons).

You're lying just to make an excuse to talk about Project X Zone again. I REFUSE to believe you were that legit delusional.

 

[NintenRob]

Shadow as the next sonic character would be very weird but also make a lot of sense. It'd be like Mario skipping Luigi, Peach and Bowser and going straight for Wario

 

[BuckleyTim]

Shadow supporters getting thrown the bone they need finally!

We gotta believe in the Second Sonic Rep, we can will it into existence if we try...

 

[Ivander]

I'm good with Shadow, but I really want Dr. Eggman to be in too(and Tails, but Eggman's a bit higher priority). Like...can we get both Shadow and Dr. Eggman in Smash Bros?