Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[RileyXY1]

Sakurai might like Ninjas. Look at Sheik, Look at Greninja, and also that he was considering Ninjara. Of course that could have been because of the Party Crash Bash because Ninjara got 2nd place in the Tournament

This wouldn't 99% affect the Character selection, though that 1% chance that Sakurai might be sub-consciously inclined to Go for another Ninja Character. Ryu has a Good shot anyway without this Bias Standpoint, but I just wanted to point it out

Of course Like I Said, Ryu can still get smoked from a Slot, despite Koei's good Relationship, Especially if Scorpion is Involved, as I doubt those 2 would be in the Same Pass and I could definitly see NOA Suggesting Mortal Kombat considering it was the top game in April and/or May of 2019

Mortal Kombat is too graphically violent and nonexistent in Japan.

 

[3BitSaurus]

You know what else had impact. Maniac Mansion had revolutionized the adventure game genre. it did tons for that genre and the influence did spread throughout the industry. People want Guybrush Threapwood? I do. Dont at me.

I can go though out all of gaming history and find these pockets of games that were "influential". It does not change any charactes chances higher or lower and still does not change the fact that Ryu is a c-list Nintendo character that only is in the running because everyone else was already chosen. (and because he was 'leaked')

Maniac Mansion is literally just one game from the 80s, though. Ninja Gaiden is an entire series, and I'd wager it's way more popular than MM, whether in the west or Japan. Not to mention Hayabusa is still used rather frequently by his parent company to the point of being called a mascot for KT.

Like... at this point, you're far better off just saying you don't like him, you know. No need to downplay a series' legacy just because of that.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Look at Sheik, Look at Greninja,

But it's still 2 out of 80+ characters, and they joined Smash years apart. This is nowhere near what caused the accusations of sword bias.

Maniac Mansion is literally just one game from the 80s

Actually it did have a sequel and there's an entire line of adventure games that use its engine. And even arcade-style/sports games that use an adventure game engine.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Sakurai might like Ninjas. Look at Sheik, Look at Greninja, and also that he was considering Ninjara. Of course that could have been because of the Party Crash Bash because Ninjara got 2nd place in the Tournament

Uh...Sheik was added due to her being an important part of Zelda's character, and Greninja was added because it was the hot new starter. Ninjara is also one of, if not the most popular ARMS characters in Japan, so it makes sense that he was considered. There's not really any evidence to suggest that Sakurai is biased towards ninjas here.

Ryu may be one of the few characters above simply plausible in likelihood, but I disagree that the reasoning would be so shallow, even if Sakurai was the primary decision maker here.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Actually it did have a sequel and there's an entire line of adventure games that use its engine. And even arcade-style/sports games that use an adventure game engine.

I was talking more about the fact that it became inactive way before NG, not really disagreeing on MM's influence on the genre - as that seems to be one of the OP's points of contention with NG "only being famous for old janky games".

 

[7NATOR]

Mortal Kombat is too graphically violent and nonexistent in Japan.

It still had and still in a little ways does in Japan though. Among games that don't sell there, it does get imported often from what I hear, and they did get the Classic games back in the day, so it's not like it never touched Japan. Of course it's a Big Factor, and Something to Consider. I'll never consider it a Death Knell when MK is concerned considering how big the Series is in other Regions

about the Violence, we Know Ed Boon is down for MK in Smash (he's been tweeting about MK X Smash since like Early 2018, Possibly earlier). This is knowing that the Fatalities and Violence would be heavily toned down. We have seen MK Characters work without The Gore in their DC guest Appearances.

Really it's based on whether Sakurai considers the Gore and Violence absolutely Necessary, and you could still convey violence while still being E-Rated like how Ridley shows. yes

 

[osby]

Mortal Kombat is too graphically violent and nonexistent in Japan.

0 days since last "too violent" debate.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I was talking more about the fact that it became inactive way before NG, not really disagreeing on MM's influence on the genre - as that seems to be one of the OP's points of contention with NG "only being famous for old janky games".

It is famous for old janky games. Ryu as no better chance then Scorpion from Mortal Kombat or whom else gets tossed around.

If we insist on NES possibilieis.
Bob/Bub from Bubble Bobble.
Rad Spencer from Bionic Commando
Contra Dudes
Lolo/Lala
Double Dragon Duo (Billy, Jimmy)
Rygar

 

[Dinoman96]

0 days since last "too violent" debate.

The nonexistent in Japan argument still stands lmao

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I know of Star Fox's legacy since it seems to be its downfall, but I've never really seen people talk about F-Zero's legacy in regards to its impact on Nintendo/gaming as a whole. As far as I know, it's just a series of racing games that died out in the Gamecube era.

I would say F-zero legacy is way bigger than most people will realise. It starts the futuristic racing subgenre, which influence a lot of game like the Wipeout franchise and more recently, Fast racing neo and Redout. It was also said by Toshiro Nagoshi (more known today for being the director of Yakuza) that F-zero was a big influence on him (he was the director of Daytona USA games). In term of sales, it also did way better than most people will acknowledge. The original F-zero sold around 2,8 million copies on SNES. This made the game the 15 best selling game of the console, just under Star fox with his 2,9 millions. The gamecube version, F-zero GX, sold 1,5 million copies, which place it as the 14 best selling Gamecube games. To put it in perspective, F-zero GX sold more than Star fox assault and Adventures and Pikmin. F-zero also got an anime in 2003. I'm not sure how popular it was but at that time it was rare to see video game franchises getting anime, so it was a pretty big deal that Nintendo decide to give an anime to F-zero.

 

[SKX31]

Sakurai might like Ninjas. Look at Sheik, Look at Greninja, and also that he was considering Ninjara. Of course that could have been because of the Party Crash Bash because Ninjara got 2nd place in the Tournament

This wouldn't 99% affect the Character selection, though that 1% chance that Sakurai might be sub-consciously inclined to Go for another Ninja Character. Ryu has a Good shot anyway without this Bias Standpoint, but I just wanted to point it out

Of course Like I Said, Ryu can still get smoked from a Slot, despite Koei's good Relationship, Especially if Scorpion is Involved, as I doubt those 2 would be in the Same Pass and I could definitly see NOA Suggesting Mortal Kombat considering it was the top game in April and/or May of 2019

Besides what SMAASH! Puppy said, if NoJ okayed three RPG characters in FP1 then they wouldn't neccessarily object to Hayabusa and Scorpion co-existing in the same pass because they're from the same genre.

The nonexistent in Japan argument still stands lmao

And that's why I'm going to learn Japanese and petition incessantly for a Mortal Kombat anime. Hey, if Castlevania can get in when it only had a Netflix show running at the time of its inclusion...

I'll say it again, Norio Wakamoto as Shao Kahn or bust.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I had a dream last night that Hayabusa got confirmed and the way Sakurai was going to present it was by doing a speed run of Ninja Gaiden on NES before going into the character. Wacky times.

The presentation's around the 14:10 mark.
"This fighter is a bit unusual thanks to those extendable arms, so we'll have to extend our development time, too. Please stay tuned for just a bit l o n g e r haha very funnie"
Make of that as you will, but I think Min Min was originally planned to be a bit earlier. Not sure exactly when they realized she had to be delayed, but she was definitely delayed by a notable amount of time.

Development on fighters pass 2 probably didn’t start till around the release of Byleth which was at the end of January. Joker for instance likely started development in November of 2018 and released in April. That’s 6 months. At most Min Min got delayed from May to June but I doubt that since they probably planned to release at least 1 DLC around E3

 

[SharkLord]

I had a dream last night that Hayabusa got confirmed and the way Sakurai was going to present it was by doing a speed run of Ninja Gaiden on NES before going into the character. Wacky times.

At this point I could honestly see him doing that. The man fooled around with a Diamond Sword/Pickaxe on camera, because that's an item iconic to Steve. Brutal difficulty is iconic to Ninja Gaiden, so logically, Sakurai would showcase it by A: Trivializing it or B: Getting slaughtered by it.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As far as Koei-Techmo goes, I could see us getting a Dynasty Warriors character considering Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity is our 3rd "crossover" title across 6 years. That may not sound like a lot, but considering a typical dev cycle is 3 years, it pretty much means they have a team dedicated to the Nintendo Warriors spinoffs at this point.

Another interesting thing to consider is that a Dynasty Warriors character would not only promote its own series, but the Nintendo Warriors games as well either directly by bringing along some of those games's music, or indirectly with an offhand comment about them in a Sakurai Presents.

 

[7NATOR]

Min-Min probably started development around when Banjo released, Since if the 8-11 month Development period is the thing, then that would put it around June. Min-Min starting in Janurary would mean Releasing in June would be too early

Joker probably started development earlier than November as well

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Oh god not the violence debate again.

Do I have to remind people?



Ironically Ridley is the most violent in the roster. He not only burnt Samus' parents alive but ate them even mocking it to her.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I had a dream last night that Hayabusa got confirmed and the way Sakurai was going to present it was by doing a speed run of Ninja Gaiden on NES before going into the character. Wacky times.

Development on fighters pass 2 probably didn’t start till around the release of Byleth which was at the end of January. Joker for instance likely started development in November of 2018 and released in April. That’s 6 months. At most Min Min got delayed from May to June but I doubt that since they probably planned to release at least 1 DLC around E3

LMFAO This is something I could actually see Sakurai doing.

 

[cashregister9]

Oh god not the violence debate again.

Do I have to remind people?



Ironically Ridley is the most violent in the roster. He not only burnt Samus' parents alive but ate them even mocking it to her.

While I think the "Too Violent" debate is very dumb, These games you listed aren't nearly as graphic as Mortal Kombat. Mortal Kombat has people ripping other characters bones and organs out in a large amount of detail albeit fictionalized. While conceptually the ones you listed might be more violent, it is all about presentation.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Given how the US releases have been avoiding M rated series, going for names of characters instead, I wonder if that will play a part in MKs chances.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It is famous for old janky games. Ryu as no better chance then Scorpion from Mortal Kombat or whom else gets tossed around.

If we insist on NES possibilieis.
Bob/Bub from Bubble Bobble.
Rad Spencer from Bionic Commando
Contra Dudes
Lolo/Lala
Double Dragon Duo (Billy, Jimmy)
Rygar

I would not put all of those on the same level.

And like, Ninja Gaiden may have hit its peak in the NES era, but placing it on the same level as two incredibly minor Kirby characters is incredibly disingenuous.

The nonexistent in Japan argument still stands lmao

That wasn't the argument he was lamenting though.

Ironically Rifley is the most violent in the roster. He not only burnt Samus' parents alive but also them while mocking it to her.

"Rifley" brings to mind imagery of a loving dog and I love it. lol

Anyway, Ridley is also the most violent one on the roster even in the context of Super Smash Bros. with his Skewer attack.

 

[Brother AJ]

I think Dynasty Warriors is very unlikely considering all their characters are real historical figures.

That said, I feel like there needs to be a universally accepted definition of "legacy" for this thread. I feel a lot of us are on a different page when it comes to that.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Development on fighters pass 2 probably didn’t start till around the release of Byleth which was at the end of January

"We'll have to extend our development time" doesn't make it seem like Min Min was only worked on for 3 months when an ARMS rep was announced.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Guybrush20X6 am I right in assuming that the Monkey Island Guybrush is your namesake?

Yeah, half of it. The other half was the 20X6 segments (parody of the year 201X in Mega Man) from Homestar Runner. I was on the Telltale boards and they were the series I was playing and it stuck from there on out.

 

[cashregister9]

I think Dynasty Warriors is very unlikely considering all their characters are real historical figures.

That said, I feel like there needs to be a universally accepted definition of "legacy" for this thread. I feel a lot of us are on a different page for what that means.

The characters in Dynasty Warriors pretty much only share the name of the historical figure, They are so heavily fictionalized that it would not be an issue, even then most if not all of the characters they would pick have been dead for centuries thus removing any issues with any potential estate they might have.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I would not put all of those on the same level.

And like, Ninja Gaiden may have hit its peak in the NES era, but placing it on the same level as two incredibly minor Kirby characters is incredibly disingenuous.


That wasn't the argument he was lamenting though.


"Rifley" brings to mind imagery of a loving dog and I love it. lol

Anyway, Ridley is also the most violent one on the roster even in the context of Super Smash Bros. with his Skewer attack.

Bub/Bob is one of the series I attribute to the wave of mobile game copy cats. they love Puzzle bobble mechanics in those things. those little guys were huge.

I think Dynasty Warriors is very unlikely considering all their characters are real historical figures.

That said, I feel like there needs to be a universally accepted definition of "legacy" for this thread. I feel a lot of us are on a different page for what that means.

Dracula is a boss. I think as long as it is an original interpretation of a character, should be fine.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think Dynasty Warriors is very unlikely considering all their characters are real historical figures.

*based on real historical figures.

Their inspiration doesn't make them any less video of game characters than it does for Dracula or Amaterasu. It's not really an issue.

 

[Louie G.]

It honestly amazes me that people will find ways to take issue with and disqualify even the most inoffensive, safest of safe picks in Hayabusa.

 

[7NATOR]

I Gotta ask, following in the footsteps of Swamp, would you guys be interested if I did a Top 15 List of the most likely characters in Speculation?

 

[GalacticPetey]

Given how the US releases have been avoiding M rated series, going for names of characters instead, I wonder if that will play a part in MKs chances.

I don't think sakurai is going to not work a character because one country can't show a logo in a video. Like he's not gonna be three months into working on Dante and say "oh, America can't show the DMC logo? May as well scrap him."

 

[Rie Sonomura]

You guys think Persona 5 being M rated had a hand in the overall nature of Joker’s reveal? Not revealed in a direct, shown first at the game awards (which would most likely have people 17 or older watching), and the full trailer + update info video was shadow dropped with no warning

No denying things have changed since Bayonetta’s smash 4 reveal in 2015, maybe that had a hand in the whole thing, idk. But maybe they did this rather roundabout method with Joker, hoped slipping in the logo still during Pass 1’s run wouldn’t cause an issue, then Pass 2 happened

aaaaahhhhh I’m looking too deep into this

 

[Powerman293]

It honestly amazes me that people will find ways to take issue with and disqualify even the most inoffensive, safest of safe picks in Hayabusa.

Yeah, Hayabusa is kind of the most safe third party pick atm given the current roster.

Which shows how far this series has come when Hayabusa is considered a "bland" pick now when it would have exploded people's brains back in Brawl.

 

[Louie G.]

-This isn't really important but I don't get why a lot of users on this board see Arle as a "dark horde Pick".

It’s awesome that you see the clear value in Arle and Puyo, being such a massively popular and influential series, but she remains a dark horse on a few fronts.

Despite her massive popularity in Japan, Puyo has yet to make major waves here in the west. It’s been climbing up in popularity ever since the release of PPT1, which is great and makes it at least notable enough not to be an unknown, but when it comes to Smash talk Arle is generally still gonna get drowned out by characters who appeal to western sensibilities more directly.

I would say it also has to do with Arle’s background as a puzzle game character. The likes of platforming, RPG and fighting game icons usually grab people’s attention more directly since their moveset potential is clear cut.

Neither of these make Arle unlikely, just as a big fan of the character I recognize these as reasons why Arle isn’t as much of a hot topic in the community as she could be. I agree with everything you mentioned as reasons why more people should take her into heavy consideration.

 

[Guynamednelson]

You guys think Persona 5 being M rated had a hand in the overall nature of Joker’s reveal? Not revealed in a direct, shown first at the game awards (which would most likely have people 17 or older watching), and the full trailer + update info video was shadow dropped with no warning

No denying things have changed since Bayonetta’s smash 4 reveal in 2015, maybe that had a hand in the whole thing, idk. But maybe they did this rather roundabout method with Joker, hoped slipping in the logo still during Pass 1’s run wouldn’t cause an issue, then Pass 2 happened

aaaaahhhhh I’m looking too deep into this

Things have changed, but the changes started later in the pass, since the Joker Direct was allowed to show that the Persona 3/4 Mii costumes were crossovers with those games.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Just saying, hypothetically if we do get Hayabusa, Dante or someone else from an M rated franchise their reveals may have to be treated the same way as Joker’s - shadow drops (TGA reveal is optional)

 

[drag0nscythe]

I Gotta ask, following in the footsteps of Swamp, would you guys be interested if I did a Top 15 List of the most likely characters in Speculation?

Go for it. I would like to see what you think.

 

[Brother AJ]

The characters in Dynasty Warriors pretty much only share the name of the historical figure, They are so heavily fictionalized that it would not be an issue, even then most if not all of the characters they would pick have been dead for centuries thus removing any issues with any potential estate they might have.

Bub/Bob is one of the series I attribute to the wave of mobile game copy cats. they love Puzzle bobble mechanics in those things. those little guys were huge.



Dracula is a boss. I think as long as it is an original interpretation of a character, should be fine.

*based on real historical figures.

Their inspiration doesn't make them any less video of game characters than it does for Dracula or Amaterasu. It's not really an issue.

Those are good points. I actually wasn't thinking of how Dracula was based on a real person. Regardless, there's not really anyone in particular that stands out or grabs your attention in DW. I would say they're still less likely than Ryu. Plus Ryu has appeared in DW games before, so he could he partially represent that series just like DoA.

 

[SKX31]

While I think the "Too Violent" debate is very dumb, These games you listed aren't nearly as graphic as Mortal Kombat. Mortal Kombat has people ripping other characters bones and organs out in a large amount of detail albeit fictionalized. While conceptually the ones you listed might be more violent, it is all about presentation.

The debate's not going to be resolved unless Sakurai / Nintendo themselves annnounce one way or the other really. On one hand, the graphic violence is very much part of Mortal Kombat's image in popular culture (and non-negotiable in the main games, Midway / Netherrealm's always stood by that and that I presume is a reason CERO see that as a non-starter for any official Japanese release. Compare RE games, which are significantly toned down in Japan, partly due to CERO's requests), and that might be a factor towards the negative.

On the other (and this shouldn't be ignored for all intents and purposes) said graphic violence is also controvertible outside of the main games and easily toned down if needed (as the Injustice cameos and even the old Mortal Kombat cartoon proved by being made). A hypotheoretical Smash appearance could tone down the graphic gore.

Whether it passes CERO though... that's not going to be easily answerable one way or the other. It's complicated by CERO letting several RE characters (human of course, no gory zombies here) through as Spirits / PNGs.

 

[Powerman293]

It’s awesome that you see the clear value in Arle and Puyo, being such a massively popular and influential series, but she remains a dark horse on a few fronts.

Despite her massive popularity in Japan, Puyo has yet to make major waves here in the west. It’s been climbing up in popularity ever since the release of PPT1, which is great and makes it at least notable enough not to be an unknown, but when it comes to Smash talk Arle is generally still gonna get drowned out by characters who appeal to western sensibilities more directly.

I would say it also has to do with Arle’s background as a puzzle game character. The likes of platforming, RPG and fighting game icons usually grab people’s attention more directly since their moveset potential is clear cut.

Neither of these make Arle unlikely, just as a big fan of the character I recognize these as reasons why Arle isn’t as much of a hot topic in the community as she could be. I agree with everything you mentioned as reasons why more people should take her into heavy consideration.

Puyo Puyo Tetris I think only got as big as it did due to being in that Switch launch window where people were getting tired of playing Breath of the Wild and trying out anything else on the system. I dunno how well the sequel would do.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Those are good points. I actually wasn't thinking of how Dracula was based on a real person. Regardless, there's not really anyone in particular that stands out or grabs your attention in DW. I would say they're still less likely than Ryu. Plus Ryu has appeared in DW games before, so he could he partially represent that series just like DoA.

I would rather Kasumi from DOA. and a DW rep then Ryu. He is a bland ninja from a try-hard series that did nothing but bring out some of the worst in gamers and the "dark souls get gud" culture that dominated and destroyed a good portion of gaming for a few years. I hate that character. absolutely.

 

[Powerman293]

I would rather Kasumi from DOA. and a DW rep then Ryu. He is a bland ninja from a try-hard series that did nothing but bring out some of the worst in gamers and the "dark souls get gud" culture that dominated and destroyed a good portion of gaming for a few years. I hate that character. absolutely.

You know they'll never add Kasumi because "Smash is for good boys and girls".