Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Evil Trapezium]

TBH complicating Smash's core design philosophy with random mechanics from other games is the very definition of fixing something that ain't broken, which leads to what's been happening to our resident blue hedgehog for the last 15 years or so.

Throwing in random mechanics simply for just the sake of it does nothing but mess with a formula that is as popular as it is for its simplicity and accessibility. The second you start messing with that, you start to alienate the side of the Smash fandom that is bigger than our core one by 10-1. Smash didn't become the best selling fighting game because the FGC is that huge a deal; it is largely in part due to its casual appeal and accessibility compared to other fighting games.

Sonic's main problem is changing the core series entirely and removing good features that worked for bad features that don't work.

What is being suggested is that the gameplay should be expanded upon so along with the simple B button inputs, you also have Street Fighter/Fatal Fury like command inputs that give characters different moves apart from the usual 4 special moves they have.

Also EX inputs for all characters that act like Cloud's limit break so characters can deal more damage by pressing both A+B at the same time.

It's just more options for people to use and we know it works because we already have Terry and Cloud who show off these ideas.

Sakurai said it better:

What matters is that a character is fun to play as, not how well-known it is.

That's not how he said it

"It's more important for a character to be fun to play, not just recognisable!"

So it's still important to be recognisable but it's less important than being fun to play.

What you said is that being fun to play is all that matters and being recognisable is not an issue.

 

[Troykv]

That's not how he said it

"It's more important for a character to be fun to play, not just recognisable!"

So it's still important to be recognisable but it's less important than being fun to play.

What you said is that being fun to play is all that matters and being recognisable is not an issue.

Yeah, he probably said it because certain characters would appeal to more niche audiences, but that it, they have a fanbase, they're loved.

 

[MooMew64]

Sonic's main problem is changing the core series entirely and removing good features that worked for bad features that don't work.

What is being suggested is that the gameplay should be expanded upon so along with the simple B button inputs, you also have Street Fighter/Fatal Fury like command inputs that give characters different moves apart from the usual 4 special moves they have.

Also EX inputs for all characters that act like Cloud's limit break so characters can deal more damage by pressing both A+B at the same time.

It's just more options for people to use and we know it works because we already have Terry and Cloud who show off these ideas.

The amount of people who actually main Ryu, Ken, and Terry and the amount of casual players who complained about their inputs should tell you how non-serious fighting game players would react to a Smash that was input-command based.

Let Smash be Smash. shoehorning in SF mechanics onto every character defeats the entire purpose of being an accessible party fighting game. And yes, I said the thing, "party" game. Which Smash, at its core, is.

 

[Deleted member]

Sonic's main problem is changing the core series entirely and removing good features that worked for bad features that don't work.

What is being suggested is that the gameplay should be expanded upon so along with the simple B button inputs, you also have Street Fighter/Fatal Fury like command inputs that give characters different moves apart from the usual 4 special moves they have.

Also EX inputs for all characters that act like Cloud's limit break so characters can deal more damage by pressing both A+B at the same time.

It's just more options for people to use and we know it works because we already have Terry and Cloud who show off these ideas.



That's not how he said it

"It's more important for a character to be fun to play, not just recognisable!"

So it's still important to be recognisable but it's less important than being fun to play.

What you said is that being fun to play is all that matters and being recognisable is not an issue.

The difference is how you completely removed the recognizability out of the window; he said a character being fun to play is more important, but having a character that is know to be loved for many is also important, just not as much.

So don't expect random OCs

Oh, my bad then I suppose.

 

[SKX31]

Following up on a previous China update:

Tencent Nintendo Switch's official account posts an introduction and gameplay of Super Mario Bros. 3 on the NES.
Like last time, no other information was given aside from the description of the game itself. pic.twitter.com/hDLP9wpp8A

— Chinese Nintendo (@chinesenintendo) November 15, 2019

Again, no talk of NSO - so that's likely out of the equation in China. But even if they do wind up including it it'll likely be cheaper (I get the impression they'd say so by now if they were using NSO, and the Chinese Switch could just use Tencent's server clusters since they're using Tencent's PayPal). Wonder if they'll continue with SMW, 64 and beyond or if they'll stop at SMW2. If they continue it might be a countdown of sorts, until they announce the launch presentation's date.

If it's truly a countdown (and assuming they post about one Mario game at this rate) then I don't think the presentation is happening before VGA, rather after it. Still, if VGA comes and goes without a character announcement I could see the Chinese presentation having that as a surprise. Low chance, I'll admit, but won't fully count out this wildcard for FP5. Or a Post-Pass character*.

Also, one of Game Freak's producers just posted about Swotrd / Shield on Weibo. Sakurai / Sora Ltd. doesn't have an account there AFAIK. Dunno if it's a legal kerfuffle keeping Smash at bay (I would kind of assume not?), but the lack of any official word there makes me think that a reveal at the Chinese presentation is a possibility just as a surprise - even if slight.

*(Steve, for example. I've missed this before, but Minecraft has the added incidental bonus of being really big in China.)

 

[MooMew64]

Also, just to clarify since my last post probably sounded a little rude: I'm not saying no one mains the FGC characters, my point was mainly that they are a more niche character main from what I've seen because most Smash players don't seem to enjoy dealing with the input commands.

I got nothing against Ryu, Ken, and Terry. They're cool for those who like 'em!

 

[Morning Raven]

So we already have a standalone DLC fighter (Pirahna Plant) and it seems increasingly likely we'll see another in future. But what about standalone stage DLC? Are there any games/franchises that would be popular enough to warrant standalone stages with music?

This guy's thoughts on Minecraft are pretty much my first though for a solo stage being added. Just throw in a creeper AT.

Whenever the idea of Minecraft content is Smash Bros. is brought up, I've always maintained that the series would be better represented with just a stage, instead of having Steve as a playable character. Partially because I don't know how Steve could be implemented as playable (Sakurai could probably squeeze a fun moveset out, but personally, I think Steve is better suited as a Sans-esque Mii Swordfighter costume), but also because Minecraft is a game where the general focus is on the environment, building and destroying stuff, instead of on any specific characters. I think a Minecraft stage where you can destroy parts of the ground would be pretty cool.

The game has a focus on what the player can do while also having some focus on the player customizing themself, having Steve and Alex as the default skins/characters and mascots, treating them/the player as an important part of the world, too. There’s plenty of stuff that can be used for a full moveset for Steve, like:

-Sword, axe, pickaxe, shovel. hoe
-Bow, crossbow
-Crafting (in a balanced form, i.e. temporary armor and tool upgrades, need resources that opponents or blocks could drop when attacked)
-Building (in a balanced form, i.e. blocks can be destroyed, disappear after a set time, limited amount you can have on the stage)
-Anvils
-TNT
-Pistons
-Chest
-Minecart, minecart with TNT, etc.
-Ender pearls
-Elytra, firework rocket
-Potions, splash potions, lingering potions
-Spawn eggs
-Enchantments
-Trident
-a lot more

Imagine how many moves they could recode just from the piston. Isabelle street sign, Sonic spring.

I'd love to see the ender pearl being used to yeet at people. Could borrow yoshi egg coding plus a blink.

 

[DarthEnderX]

That's basically what I said.

What you said is that being fun to play matters, and being recognizable doesn't. What Sakurai said is that being recognizable matters, just not as much as being fun to play.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Also, just to clarify since my last post probably sounded a little rude: I'm not saying no one mains the FGC characters, my point was mainly that they are a more niche character main from what I've seen because most Smash players don't seem to enjoy dealing with the input commands.

I got nothing against Ryu, Ken, and Terry. They're cool for those who like 'em!

Input commands are actually quite easy. I think maybe Sakurai underestimated how quickly people would master them. Terry's rewards for completing command inputs are too high imo.

 

[Droodle]

Alright, alright; It's time to reveal who character 5 is, I'm an insider and I'm getting tired of all the semantics. My true name is Reginald Filles Anime, I'm pretty famous for being a leaker.

It's a character none of you have been speculating.
- Chosen Undead? More like Unchosen Undead.
- Heihachi? More like Whohachi?
- Doomguy? More like "Never getting in"guy
- KOS-MOS? More like KOS-NOPE
- Master Cheif? More like No Chief
- Agumon? More like no more pokemon
- Lloyd Irving? More like Generic anime swordsman
- Geno? More like GeNO
- Reimu? More like ReiWHO

None of these literal who's are getting in. They're nowhere near iconic enough for Smash; Mr. Sakurai only picks THE most iconic franchises. The only thing you have gotten right is that character 5 is a Bandai Namco character.

I present to you character 5;

Unicorn Gundam from Bandai Namco's world famous video game series, Gundam.

 

[Deleted member]

What you said is that being fun to play matters, and being recognizable doesn't. What Sakurai said is that being recognizable matters, just not as much as being fun to play.

Yeah, I already understood my mistake.

 

[TheTuninator]

Following up on a previous China update:

Tencent Nintendo Switch's official account posts an introduction and gameplay of Super Mario Bros. 3 on the NES.
Like last time, no other information was given aside from the description of the game itself. pic.twitter.com/hDLP9wpp8A

— Chinese Nintendo (@chinesenintendo) November 15, 2019

Again, no talk of NSO - so that's likely out of the equation in China. But even if they do wind up including it it'll likely be cheaper (I get the impression they'd say so by now if they were using NSO, and the Chinese Switch could just use Tencent's server clusters since they're using Tencent's PayPal). Wonder if they'll continue with SMW, 64 and beyond or if they'll stop at SMW2. If they continue it might be a countdown of sorts, until they announce the launch presentation's date.

If it's truly a countdown (and assuming they post about one Mario game at this rate) then I don't think the presentation is happening before VGA, rather after it. Still, if VGA comes and goes without a character announcement I could see the Chinese presentation having that as a surprise. Low chance, I'll admit, but won't fully count out this wildcard for FP5. Or a Post-Pass character*.

Also, one of Game Freak's producers just posted about Swotrd / Shield on Weibo. Sakurai / Sora Ltd. doesn't have an account there AFAIK. Dunno if it's a legal kerfuffle keeping Smash at bay (I would kind of assume not?), but the lack of any official word there makes me think that a reveal at the Chinese presentation is a possibility just as a surprise - even if slight.

*(Steve, for example. I've missed this before, but Minecraft has the added incidental bonus of being really big in China.)

Interesting stuff, as always. Thanks, and please continue keeping us in the loop!

 

[UserKev]

Sakurai said it better:

What matters is that a character is fun to play as, not how well-known it is.

As much as I admire Sakurai, this quote was an A pull and a quota to fill his own personal bias. There are exactly lessor known characters that will never be playable.

 

[Lionfranky]

Is it true that Sakurai wants to use Smash to promote only Japanese games? Someone told me on Twitter. Technically, Banjo was the first to break that stance iirc. So he is wrong, right? I know Smash is Japanese game, but what's wrong with using Smash to enlighten Japanese about western games?

 

[PhantomShab]

As much as I admire Sakurai, this quote was an A pull and a quota to fill his own personal bias. There are exactly lessor known characters that will never be playable.

True. All this did was give a lot of fanbases false hope. Keep in mind this was the longest Smash Bros presentation ever and it was almost 50 minutes of Sakurai gushing over Fatal Fury, to the point of spoiling Terry's entire classic mode.

 

[Droodle]

Is it true that Sakurai wants to use Smash to promote only Japanese games? Someone told me on Twitter. Technically, Banjo was the first to break that stance iirc. So he is wrong, right? I know Smash is Japanese game, but what's wrong with using Smash to enlighten Japanese about western games?

He stated he wants to promote Japanese games in any way he can in an interview. He also stated it's much easier to negotiate for Japanese characters than Western ones.

 

[Flyboy]

Alright, alright; It's time to reveal who character 5 is, I'm an insider and I'm getting tired of all the semantics. My true name is Reginald Filles Anime, I'm pretty famous for being a leaker.

It's a character none of you have been speculating.
- Chosen Undead? More like Unchosen Undead.
- Heihachi? More like Whohachi?
- Doomguy? More like "Never getting in"guy
- KOS-MOS? More like KOS-NOPE
- Master Cheif? More like No Chief
- Agumon? More like no more pokemon
- Lloyd Irving? More like Generic anime swordsman
- Geno? More like GeNO
- Reimu? More like ReiWHO

None of these literal who's are getting in. They're nowhere near iconic enough for Smash; Mr. Sakurai only picks THE most iconic franchises. The only thing you have gotten right is that character 5 is a Bandai Namco character.

I present to you character 5;

View attachment 246782
Unicorn Gundam from Bandai Namco's world famous video game series, Gundam.

This is a pure ****post yes but I gotta admit a Gundam is the biggest Galaxy Brain take and I'd pop the biggest bottles for one.

 

[BZL8]

Is it true that Sakurai wants to use Smash to promote only Japanese games? Someone told me on Twitter. Technically, Banjo was the first to break that stance iirc. So he is wrong, right? I know Smash is Japanese game, but what's wrong with using Smash to enlighten Japanese about western games?

I think Sakurai sees the language barrier as a deterrent or factor. Note that Sakurai was initially concerned he would not be able to communicate clearly with Kirkhope when he collaborated on Smash. I am of the mind Sakurai would go for a Western character if he finds it is worth dealing with the barrier.

 

[SlickWylde]

The amount of people who actually main Ryu, Ken, and Terry and the amount of casual players who complained about their inputs should tell you how non-serious fighting game players would react to a Smash that was input-command based.

Let Smash be Smash. shoehorning in SF mechanics onto every character defeats the entire purpose of being an accessible party fighting game. And yes, I said the thing, "party" game. Which Smash, at its core, is.

Yeah I've been playing Smash literally since 1999, and although I haven't like some of the directions the series has gone sometimes, I've always been completely loyal and forgiving. If they implemented a system where all characters had inputs, I would probably stop playing. I feel like the freedom of movement and concept of the games themselves don't lend well to directional inputs. I don't want Smash to be like the other fighting games.

 

[blackghost]

this is from a few pages ago but when it comes to FE i want claude the most but i'll take edelgaurd. but i expect byleth.

3 houses lords are all great characters as they are all based on FE old style villains. if you have finished all three routes you should know what im talking about.

what nintnedo should do with Fe is make a 3-d soulcalibur style fighting game with FE and its rich history. Go to Namco and ask them to make it (put link in as a guest character). They have made fighting games out of pokemon and ****ing Castlevania both of which were extremely popular. I truly think Nintendo was surprised by how many non lord character players loved. FE heroes fan voting surprised themespecially when it came to Lyn, hector, and Eliwood.

 

[yeet123]

Sakurai said it better:

What matters is that a character is fun to play as, not how well-known it is.

I think people are reading way too much into this when in reality the only reason he said this is because of the overwhelming sense of "who the f*** is this?" when Terry was announced.

It doesn't mean that every character from now on is going to be incredible niche.

 

[Troykv]

I think people are reading way too much into this when in reality the only reason he said this is because of the overwhelming sense of "who the f*** is this?" when Terry was announced.

It doesn't mean that every character from now on is going to be incredible niche.

Nah, it probably mostly means we shouldn't expect only the highest grossing franchises in Smash.

 

[yeet123]

The amount of people who actually main Ryu, Ken, and Terry and the amount of casual players who complained about their inputs should tell you how non-serious fighting game players would react to a Smash that was input-command based.

Let Smash be Smash. shoehorning in SF mechanics onto every character defeats the entire purpose of being an accessible party fighting game. And yes, I said the thing, "party" game. Which Smash, at its core, is.

I LOVE YOU.

 

[Droodle]

As much as I admire Sakurai, this quote was an A pull and a quota to fill his own personal bias. There are exactly lessor known characters that will never be playable.

True. All this did was give a lot of fanbases false hope. Keep in mind this was the longest Smash Bros presentation ever and it was almost 50 minutes of Sakurai gushing over Fatal Fury, to the point of spoiling Terry's entire classic mode.

I would disagree with this statement; yes, Sakurai clearly likes SNK a lot and that can be easily seen. However, there are a ton of characters that are more niche than Terry that I feel like have a chance to get in.

For example:
- Geno: Yes, Geno is 100% more niche than Terry outside the online Smash community. The dude has been a party member in 1 game back in the 1990's and has pretty much never had a major role again. I would argue Geno is more known for his Smash fanbase then even his own appearance in his own game. He's a niche character but definitely has a shot at getting in.
- Adol Christin: Who? Well, Adol would be a Falcom representative which is a decently well known RPG developer back in Japan, that definitely has a legacy. They have been developing games since the early 1980's before video game consoles even became popular. Ys started in 1987, and Ys IX came out this year in Japan. Dragon Slayer pretty much laid the foundations of Action RPG's to come like TLoZ. They were one of the first developers to emphasize music in video games. They've had just as big an impact on early JRPG's then Dragon Quest, even if they are less known. If Sakurai really wants Smash to be about Japanese video game history, they are a developer that has had a major impact on the history of JP video games.

Obviously there are more characters that I would argue are at the very least around the same popularity level as Terry; commonly discussed ones are Reimu and KOS-MOS that I would give a fair shot at happening.

None of these characters are locks, but I would definitely say that I predict at least 1 more character will come as DLC that turns out to be equally or more niche then Terry.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Alright, alright; It's time to reveal who character 5 is, I'm an insider and I'm getting tired of all the semantics. My true name is Reginald Filles Anime, I'm pretty famous for being a leaker.

It's a character none of you have been speculating.
- Chosen Undead? More like Unchosen Undead.
- Heihachi? More like Whohachi?
- Doomguy? More like "Never getting in"guy
- KOS-MOS? More like KOS-NOPE
- Master Cheif? More like No Chief
- Agumon? More like no more pokemon
- Lloyd Irving? More like Generic anime swordsman
- Geno? More like GeNO
- Reimu? More like ReiWHO

None of these literal who's are getting in. They're nowhere near iconic enough for Smash; Mr. Sakurai only picks THE most iconic franchises. The only thing you have gotten right is that character 5 is a Bandai Namco character.

I present to you character 5;

View attachment 246782
Unicorn Gundam from Bandai Namco's world famous video game series, Gundam.

I can’t believe Gundam got in over Goku as our first anime rep smh

 

[yeet123]

I would definitely say that I predict at least 1 more character will come as DLC that turns out to be equally or more niche then Terry.

agree, but i definitely don't think fighter #5 is going to be as niche as Terr Bear

I can’t believe Gundam got in over Goku as our first anime rep smh

Joker is secretly a stand user but dont tell anyone

 

[Lionfranky]

He stated he wants to promote Japanese games in any way he can in an interview. He also stated it's much easier to negotiate for Japanese characters than Western ones.

Yeah, but he also stated that it was easier to negotiate for Banjo than for Hero.

I think Sakurai sees the language barrier as a deterrent or factor. Note that Sakurai was initially concerned he would not be able to communicate clearly with Kirkhope when he collaborated on Smash. I am of the mind Sakurai would go for a Western character if he finds it is worth dealing with the barrier.

After this, I think he got accustomed to working with western world.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Y'all are stupid FP5 is Chun Li Power Ranger

CHUN LI RANGER!!! #PowerRangers #legacywars #StreetFighter pic.twitter.com/Gbxhqs5vDE

— CosmicRanger (@CosmicRanger006) November 14, 2019

 

[Momotsuki]

Y'know, super late, but in regards to standalone stages...
Gimme some Meta Crystal.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I love that only Terry and the SF characters use inputs.

I love knowing that, at the extremely low level that I play at online, other Terrys I come up against probably don't know how to do Buster Wolves!

Let Smash be Smash. shoehorning in SF mechanics onto every character defeats the entire purpose of being an accessible party fighting game. And yes, I said the thing, "party" game. Which Smash, at its core, is.

That said, I didn't see Nintendo correcting anyone when it was announced that Smash Ultimate was the best selling fighting game of all time.

 

[Sari]

I did it... it's finally done...

So back in February, I made a deal that if Terry (or Kyo) got into Smash that I'd write a 10 page history on the history of SNK.

2 months after Terry's reveal and a little over a week since his release... it is now complete.

CLICK HERE TO READ THE ESSAY​

With pictures, double-spacing, and a references page, it stands at 36 pages. I didn't think it'd be this long but I wanted to talk about all the important games and characters. I don't think I've ever written a paper this long.

There are a few things I probably could've covered (like Athena and a few other games) but overall I'm satisfied with how it turned out.

It's split up into sections so use the sidebar on the left to help navigate.

Please read it whenever you can because I don't think I'll ever top this in terms of effort.

 

[Glory2Snowstar]

I did it... it's finally done...

So back in February, I made a deal that if Terry (or Kyo) got into Smash that I'd write a 10 page history on the history of SNK.

2 months after Terry's reveal and a little over a week since his release... it is now complete.

CLICK HERE TO READ THE ESSAY​

With pictures, double-spacing, and a references page, it stands at 36 pages. I didn't think it'd be this long but I wanted to talk about all the important games and characters. I don't think I've ever written a paper this long.

There are a few things I probably could've covered (like Athena and a few other games) but overall I'm satisfied with how it turned out.

It's split up into sections so use the sidebar on the left to help navigate.

Please read it whenever you can because I don't think I'll ever top this in terms of effort.

Holy cow, been a long-time lurker here but I just wanted to stop by and say congrats. 36 pages is INSANE!

 

[DanganZilla5]

In terms of standalone stages, I just want pokefloats, Rainbow Road, and Pac Maze to return. There was no reason to not bring them back. And also, a Minecraft stage with a full list of music, please!

 

[Troykv]

I did it... it's finally done...

So back in February, I made a deal that if Terry (or Kyo) got into Smash that I'd write a 10 page history on the history of SNK.

2 months after Terry's reveal and a little over a week since his release... it is now complete.

CLICK HERE TO READ THE ESSAY​

With pictures, double-spacing, and a references page, it stands at 36 pages. I didn't think it'd be this long but I wanted to talk about all the important games and characters. I don't think I've ever written a paper this long.

There are a few things I probably could've covered (like Athena and a few other games) but overall I'm satisfied with how it turned out.

It's split up into sections so use the sidebar on the left to help navigate.

Please read it whenever you can because I don't think I'll ever top this in terms of effort.

Nice job Sari!!

I will give it a read tonight.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

That Lyn design wouldn't get past CERO though.

Lyn's already in the game. They can just adjust that part of her model to match her existing model, just like how they gave Palutena shorts for Smash 4's release.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

In terms of standalone stages, I just want pokefloats, Rainbow Road, and Pac Maze to return. There was no reason to not bring them back. And also, a Minecraft stage with a full list of music, please!

Add a new Donkey Kong Stage to that list and that's more or less my list.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, but he also stated that it was easier to negotiate for Banjo than for Hero.

Not really, both were relatively easy according to Sakurai. SE and the DQ team were pretty open and the only issue was the music, to which Sakurai just moved the character from the main roster to DLC to make the royalties more manageable.

 

[Deleted member]

Not really, both were relatively easy according to Sakurai. SE and the DQ team were pretty open and the only issue was the music, to which Sakurai just moved the character from the main roster to DLC to make the royalties more manageable.

People seriously need to stop painting Square Enix as the worst company to work with, ngl.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Not really, both were relatively easy according to Sakurai. SE and the DQ team were pretty open and the only issue was the music, to which Sakurai just moved the character from the main roster to DLC to make the royalties more manageable.

Where did the idea that Hero was planned to be on the base roster but then relegated to DLC come from?

Is there any actual concrete evidence for this or is this just a theory?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

People seriously need to stop painting Square Enix as the worst company to work with, ngl.

But how else can people justify Cloud and Hero making it in before Geno? Surely it can't be because they're from iconic franchises and beloved games, with Cloud literally being the face of the PS1?