Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Night Gale]

That was a damn good read, Sari. Thank you! The character profile nicknames was the highlight imo. Leona truly is perfection.

 

[Deleted member]

Where did the idea that Hero was planned to be on the base roster but then relegated to DLC come from?

Is there any actual concrete evidence for this or is this just a theory?

It was in an interview from the DQXIS launch if I recall correctly. Sakurai was invited and detailed he pretty much went, presented his plans for the Hero in Smash and got permission to use him immediately.

 

[Deleted member]

I did it... it's finally done...

So back in February, I made a deal that if Terry (or Kyo) got into Smash that I'd write a 10 page history on the history of SNK.

2 months after Terry's reveal and a little over a week since his release... it is now complete.

CLICK HERE TO READ THE ESSAY​

With pictures, double-spacing, and a references page, it stands at 36 pages. I didn't think it'd be this long but I wanted to talk about all the important games and characters. I don't think I've ever written a paper this long.

There are a few things I probably could've covered (like Athena and a few other games) but overall I'm satisfied with how it turned out.

It's split up into sections so use the sidebar on the left to help navigate.

Please read it whenever you can because I don't think I'll ever top this in terms of effort.

Woah...

Just... Woah.

My hat's down for this awesome document my dear Sari.

This is legit something worth to safe, because the amount the information you learn by reading this whole thing is just outstanding.

Nice job. Don't know what else to say because I feel everyone else already told what I say in better ways.

But man, I'm proud of you.

 

[Wunderwaft]

It was in an interview from the DQXIS launch if I recall correctly. Sakurai was invited and detailed he pretty much went, presented his plans for the Hero in Smash and got permission to use him immediately.

I'm assuming you're talking about this interview?
I checked it and there is no mention of Hero being planned for the base roster.

 

[N3ON]

I'd take Sakurai publicly singing the praises of companies after they've lent their characters in Smash with a grain of salt.

I can only imagine that in many cases, things are more arduous behind the scenes. But talking about the difficulties of collaboration isn't quite as courteous.

 

[GKMLTTSB]

As far as standalone stages go, I'm down.
If I can't get XIV in a character, getting the music and a Carteneau Flats/Fall of Dalamud stage would be pretty spiffy.
Or Ehn Gha from Eternal Darkness (though skipping out on Alex would be a waste)

For existing properties, there's a lot to be gained as well. Mount Rushmore, Phendrana Drifts, Tarm Ruins or the Temple of Seasons, etc. Just give more music with them please. >_>

Alright, alright; It's time to reveal who character 5 is, I'm an insider and I'm getting tired of all the semantics. My true name is Reginald Filles Anime, I'm pretty famous for being a leaker.

It's a character none of you have been speculating.
...
Unicorn Gundam from Bandai Namco's world famous video game series, Gundam.

On a related note, a Super Robot Wars OG rep would actually be a fun choice for Bamco if they miss the boat on bringing us iDOLM@STER.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

We also know SE initially suggested Slime and had Sakurai gotten the time and resources, Hero would have had 8 alts instead of 4

 

[SKX31]

With pictures, double-spacing, and a references page, it stands at 36 pages. I didn't think it'd be this long but I wanted to talk about all the important games and characters. I don't think I've ever written a paper this long.

Trust me, if you ever get to college / university (or if you already are) be prepared. Dissentations are actual serious business.

Nevertheless, great work!

Interesting stuff, as always. Thanks, and please continue keeping us in the loop!

You're welcome! Tencent's one of those truly weird companies when you think about it. They seem invurnerable, but then one discovers weird weaknesses they have. Like the whole Arena of Valor (Honor of Kings in China) debacle - the mobile LoL got accussed of being poison by Chinese state media. Those accusations helped lead to one thing: those really harsh new laws regulating play time for minors (90 minutes a day for those under 18 along with a nighttime curfew*). Sure, Tencent's following the new laws - but the new laws are also part of the reason why they want to make Nintendo games for US / EU audiences. It's not exactly a sign of strength.

And then there are the kids who try to fool or hack the new systems in place. Tencent mentioned these examples:

• Secretly registering with your mother’s ID card and scanning her face while she’s sleeping.
• Pinching your throat and pretending to be a 70-year-old grandfather while talking to Honor of Kings customer service personnel.
• Coaxing or even commanding your parents to speak to customer service.
• Asking the lady working at the snack bar next to the school to impersonate your parents and convince customer service that their gaming doesn't need to be restricted.

The article notes that kids account for only around 20 % of payments in the Chinese industry, FTR.

They're still really strong and can be incredibly scary, don't get me wrong, but they had a horrible 2018 and a wonky 2019. I'm pretty hopeful that Nintendo will be fine.

We also know SE initially suggested Slime and had Sakurai gotten the time and resources, Hero would have had 8 alts instead of 4

I would've loved DQ5's protag, honestly. It would have been really wonky to see sword moves adapted to staffs, so I see why Sakurai skipped out on that.

*(FTR, South Korea only has a nighttime curfew for kids under 16 - between midnight and 6. Which IMHO is much more justifiable if you're gonna have such laws.)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I just saw a video titled "toad sings chandelier"...I fear for this person's vocal cords.

Lyn's already in the game. They can just adjust that part of her model to match her existing model, just like how they gave Palutena shorts for Smash 4's release.

I was kidding. Hence the Pac-Man.

 

[PhantomShab]

But how else can people justify Cloud and Hero making it in before Geno? Surely it can't be because they're from iconic franchises and beloved games, with Cloud literally being the face of the PS1?

I'm pretty sure people say that Square is hard to work with because Cloud only has 2 non-remixed songs with absolutely nothing new in Ultimate (not even a single sticker). Meanwhile it's been hinted that Cloud was hard to get back into Ultimate. Then we have Hero who only brings 2 non-remixed songs per skin but still gets a bit more than Cloud thanks to that technicality.

But yeah sure, it's because they got in before Geno. Geno fans BAD.

 

[KillerCage]

What do you guys think of this moveset idea for a particular Namco Bandai character?

Spoiler: IT'S NOT HEIHACHI!

It's Lucario's aura gimmick but reversed!

 

[Deleted member]

Good morning everyone, again.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm pretty sure people say that Square is hard to work with because Cloud only has 2 non-remixed songs with absolutely nothing new in Ultimate (not even a single sticker). Meanwhile it's been hinted that Cloud was hard to get back into Ultimate. Then we have Hero who only brings 2 non-remixed songs per skin but still gets a bit more than Cloud thanks to that technicality.

But yeah sure, it's because they got in before Geno. Geno fans BAD.

From what I understand Final Fantasy doesn't get much because the rights holders are all over the place especially for music, and Dragon Quest didn't get more because they're DLC (so they get less spirits) and its series' composer is stingy to the point where SquareEnix has to twist his arm to be able to use the non-midi version of his songs even within the mainline titles.

 

[TheYungLink]

Good morning everyone, again.

Good morning, Sari finished his SNK essay!

(GIF removed to not slow down this page too much - TheYungLink)

I did it... it's finally done...

So back in February, I made a deal that if Terry (or Kyo) got into Smash that I'd write a 10 page history on the history of SNK.

2 months after Terry's reveal and a little over a week since his release... it is now complete.

CLICK HERE TO READ THE ESSAY

With pictures, double-spacing, and a references page, it stands at 36 pages. I didn't think it'd be this long but I wanted to talk about all the important games and characters. I don't think I've ever written a paper this long.

There are a few things I probably could've covered (like Athena and a few other games) but overall I'm satisfied with how it turned out.

It's split up into sections so use the sidebar on the left to help navigate.

Please read it whenever you can because I don't think I'll ever top this in terms of effort.

I'm reading it right now, I know you love SNK games so I figured we'd let you know it's done and you can check it out.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Good morning everyone, again.

It's evening where I am, but Good Morning too.

 

[3BitSaurus]

What do you guys think of this moveset idea for a particular Namco Bandai character?

Dunno... I think having all 5 forms is a bit too much imo. I'd just stick with Agumon, Greymon and MetalGreymon and have WarGreymon as the Final Smash - the moveset becomes more cohesive that way. I also think 20% is, in fact, too low lol. I think around 50% would be better? Also, representing it with a meter in the UI would be cool.

Also... what do you have against Heihachi, man? Just curious.

 

[Wigglerman]

Dunno... I think having all 5 forms is a bit too much imo. I'd just stick with Agumon, Greymon and MetalGreymon and have WarGreymon as the Final Smash - the moveset becomes more cohesive that way. I also think 20% is, in fact, too low lol. I think around 50% would be better? Also, representing it with a meter in the UI would be cool.

Also... what do you have against Heihachi, man? Just curious.

I don't think many have any issue with Heihachi but he has several 'issues' against him in general. First is he'd likely be less accepted by many as he'd be, 'yet another', fighting game character. I have zero issues with it but from the lamenting on Smash Boards, I can see why the trend would wear thin after Ryu, Ken and now Terry. A fourth would likely get on some nerves.

The second is the story going that Sakurai couldn't make Heihachi work proper in Smash while being faithful to the series he's from. Tekken isn't as easy to translate to Smash as traditional fighters are, like SF or KOF.


I'm for any Namco rep honestly, though as much as I love Tekken, I've a big soft spot for Digimon and I'd love Agumon (or any Digimon) to make the cut for the big 'Pokemon vs Digimon' fights I've always imagined that Smash could allow.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Name one person in your entire neighborhood that recognizes Reimu.
And I just said that I WOULD accept her.
1. It'd make Lesley happy and save me from her wrath.
2. A bullet hell moveset sounds cool.

I meant it as a joke. I have no connection to Reimu and am totally indifferent to whether or not she gets in. I don't think she's lame ass though.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm assuming you're talking about this interview?
I checked it and there is no mention of Hero being planned for the base roster.

Thought I read that somewhere in that interview, seems I was mistaken. Probably heard it somewhere else or was mistaken.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm pretty sure people say that Square is hard to work with because Cloud only has 2 non-remixed songs with absolutely nothing new in Ultimate (not even a single sticker). Meanwhile it's been hinted that Cloud was hard to get back into Ultimate. Then we have Hero who only brings 2 non-remixed songs per skin but still gets a bit more than Cloud thanks to that technicality.

But yeah sure, it's because they got in before Geno. Geno fans BAD.

Considering the rights for FFVII are all over the place and Dragon Quest music has to be muted on twitch unless you want your stream taken down, but a surprising amount of freedom outside of that when compared to say, TPC not allowing the actual shiny forms in Smash alongside the idea Square is the reason Geno isn't in despite being negotiated for a costume and spirit meaning Square isn't nearly as stingy as people make them out to be

But yeah sure, it's because people who didn't grew up playing a game that didn't release in their continent. Europeans BAD

 

[PhantomShab]

Considering the rights for FFVII are all over the place and Dragon Quest music has to be muted on twitch unless you want your stream taken down, but a surprising amount of freedom outside of that when compared to say, TPC not allowing the actual shiny forms in Smash alongside the idea Square is the reason Geno isn't in despite being negotiated for a costume and spirit meaning Square isn't nearly as stingy as people make them out to be

But yeah sure, it's because people who didn't grew up playing a game that didn't release in their continent. Europeans BAD

"When you look past all these reasons that they're hard to work with, they're actually not that hard to work with."

You dont say?

 

[Beautifully Butterfully]

With all this talk about FF's music (or the lack of) selection due to copyright/composer issues. I'm just here wondering why there is no "functioning" FF Spirits at all. It doesn't help that Cloud's Fighter Spirit is just the Smash Ultimate artwork and DQ has a handful of spirits even if it isn't much. I'm going to guess it has something to do with Tetsuya Nomura but it's like he is that stingy, right?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

"When you look past all these reasons that they're hard to work with, they're actually not that hard to work with."

You dont say?

There's a huge difference between legal ****ery and "No we forbid you from doing this". Stingy Square heavily suggest the latter when it's a case of the former like "Oh my god Ms. Pac-Man is so easy to add why didn't they do it?" Or other stuff like "Oh my god Game Freak is lazy" when the situation is "Game Freak has too tight of a budget and too strict of a deadline". But if you generalize everything to be as simple as possibe then yes it looks the same, have a gold star for being so smart

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

"When you look past all these reasons that they're hard to work with, they're actually not that hard to work with."

You dont say?

You do realize that concept art, character art, music, etc. Are all owned by different people freelanced BY Square for that stuff right? You can imagine the nightmare it probably was for Square THEMSELVES to get the rights to the music and art for their own crossover fighting game in Dissidia. That's without even mentioning Smash is Nintendo and Nintendo has to go through Square and Square would have to go through its partners to get that stuff. That's a ****ing contractual nightmare.

If Square is hard to work with then it ain't Square's fault.

 

[PhantomShab]

There's a huge difference between legal ****ery and "No we forbid you from doing this". Stingy Square heavily suggest the latter when it's a case of the former like "Oh my god Ms. Pac-Man is so easy to add why didn't they do it?" Or other stuff like "Oh my god Game Freak is lazy" when the situation is "Game Freak has too tight of a budget and too strict of a deadline". But if you generalize everything to be as simple as possibe then yes it looks the same, have a gold star for being so smart

You can be hard to work with without being stingy or stubborn. If you have to jump through all these hoops just to get Cloud in Smash to the point of not even bothering to try and get more than 2 songs or even some stickers for "the face of the PS1" than yes they are hard to work with regardless of the reason.

But hey dont let me stop you from looking for reasons to **** on fanbases you dont like. Maybe someday you'll do it in the actual character's thread instead of here where you'll be instantly validated and agreed with.

 

[yeet123]

Dont let any of these arguments distract you from the fact that Banjo-Kazooie is the best character that will ever be added to Smash.

 

[PhantomShab]

You do realize that concept art, character art, music, etc. Are all owned by different people freelanced BY Square for that stuff right? You can imagine the nightmare it probably was for Square THEMSELVES to get the rights to the music and art for their own crossover fighting game in Dissidia. That's without even mentioning Smash is Nintendo and Nintendo has to go through Square and Square would have to go through its partners to get that stuff. That's a ****ing contractual nightmare.

If Square is hard to work with then it ain't Square's fault.

So what? Whether or not it's their fault doesnt change the fact that they are hard to work with. It's not some conspiracy cooked up by Geno fans.

Dont let any of these arguments distract you from the fact that Banjo-Kazooie is the best character that will ever be added to Smash.

And this post is absolutely based.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

It's pretty mad how hard TPC is to work with. They didn't even let Nintendo have any Pokemon sounds in Mario Maker or Yoshi designs in Wooly World.

Smash has it relatively good but no shiny colors or content from spin-offs GF didn't have a direct hand in is pretty telling.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

With all this talk about FF's music (or the lack of) selection due to copyright/composer issues. I'm just here wondering why there is no "functioning" FF Spirits at all. It doesn't help that Cloud's Fighter Spirit is just the Smash Ultimate artwork and DQ has a handful of spirits even if it isn't much. I'm going to guess it has something to do with Tetsuya Nomura but it's like he is that stingy, right?

It's a case of everything needing royalties. Most third parties are just a single payment but Square seems to care more about creator rights, so you need to go to Square, Nomura and Uematsu to get FFVII stuff. Not to mention Smash 4 DLC clearly had less of a budget and it was easier to just get the Smash 4 content extended. Hell, Smash even proves it's Nintendo who tends to be stingy with most of the cast reusing voice clips and NoA's anti union stance screwing us out of English Cloud and stuff. Hell, they made a big deal out of Hero's VAs and how Heroes say what spells they use yet NoA didn't even make effort

You can be hard to work with without being stingy or stubborn. If you have to jump through all these hoops just to get Cloud in Smash to the point of not even bothering to try and get more than 2 songs or even some stickers for "the face of the PS1" than yes they are hard to work with regardless of the reason.

But hey dont let me stop you from looking for reasons to **** on fanbases you dont like. Maybe someday you'll do it in the actual character's thread instead of here where you'll be instantly validated and agreed with.

You're still acting like Stingy Square was ever anything beyond "Square specifically is stopping this", just say the rights are ****ed

Wait so I need to avoid a hiveminded echo chamber and instead go to... hiveminded echo chamber? Hell, most people in this thread seem to like the idea of Geno at the very least so implying a more broadened general topic is always going to have the same opinion about Geno compared to Geno's support thread, as in, the support threads that exist solely to go "WOW YOU GUYS THIS CHARACTER IS SOOOO COOL RIGHT?" Regardless whoever the character is, seems to be just outright wrong

 

[Momotsuki]

I never really cared much for Banjo as a character (and still don't) but holy heck, am I glad he got in. Just seeing that happen and seeing how many people were ecstatic at the news was and is wonderful. Banjo was probably the longest running "dream" character, as I can remember people wondering why he wasn't in Smash 64 as kids. Stuff like that makes his inclusion something special.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Dont let any of these arguments distract you from the fact that Banjo-Kazooie is the best character that will ever be added to Smash.

The best character added in Smash is clearly the Toad Peach uses for Neutral B

 

[PhantomShab]

You're still acting like Stingy Square was ever anything beyond "Square specifically is stopping this", just say the rights are ****ed

Wait so I need to avoid a hiveminded echo chamber and instead go to... hiveminded echo chamber? Hell, most people in this thread seem to like the idea of Geno at the very least so implying a more broadened general topic is always going to have the same opinion about Geno compared to Geno's support thread, as in, the support threads that exist solely to go "WOW YOU GUYS THIS CHARACTER IS SOOOO COOL RIGHT?" Regardless whoever the character is, seems to be just outright wrong

Implying this thread isn't an echo chamber. We have people who follow the words of piggybacking leakers like its gospel and people who actually think the freaking Touhou girl would be a bombshell at the VGAs.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Dont let any of these arguments distract you from the fact that Wolf is the best character that will ever be added to Smash.

Fixed.

 

[Captain Fun]

I never really cared much for Banjo as a character (and still don't) but holy heck, am I glad he got in. Just seeing that happen and seeing how many people were ecstatic at the news was and is wonderful. Banjo was probably the longest running "dream" character, as I can remember people wondering why he wasn't in Smash 64 as kids. Stuff like that makes his inclusion something special.

I guess I’m the opposite.

Banjo was one of my never-evers and he had an amazing reveal. I’m really glad he’s finally in the game... but his moveset is so disappointing. He’s kind of sluggish and boring.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I guess I’m the opposite.

Banjo was one of my never-evers and he had an amazing reveal. I’m really glad he’s finally in the game... but his moveset is so disappointing. He’s kind of sluggish and boring.

Probably to be expected of a more basic character after a huge stream of cool gimmicky ones.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Implying this thread isn't an echo chamber. We have people who follow the words of piggybacking leakers like its gospel and people who actually think the freaking Touhou girl would be a bombshell at the VGAs.

This is specifically ignoring how half of the thread always fights about whether Sabi has info or faked a C&D for attention so the first example is flatout wrong. I'd ask for you to send a link or quote all the people suggesting Reimu is indeed a huge bombshell for a western event but I'm gonna go on a limb and guess you won't provide that or it's generalized as "I think Reimu would be dope", "That'd be cool" or "God I wish" suddenly all becoming "OMG REIMU IS ABSOLUTELY GONNA BE SHOWN AT TGA



Also when the comparison is a character support thread which, AGAIN, only exists to go "OMG YOU GUYS THIS SUPER SPECIFIC CHARACTER IS THE KITTY'S ******* LET'S ONLY EVER TALK ABOUT THEM" regardless of which character it is, this isn't nearly as much of an echo chamber when compared to any support threads

 

[Momotsuki]

I said I thought Reimu could be F5 before, but after giving it some thought, I kinda flipped on that a bit. Reimu seems more likely for post-pass DLC.

 

[Captain Fun]

Probably to be expected of a more basic character after a huge stream of cool gimmicky ones.

When Smash 4 was new and we started getting a lot of “gimmick” fighters, I started to miss the more simplistic movesets. Now I see the light, I guess.

Though to be fair, Banio feeling kind of samey is probably the result of there being so many characters in the game.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Dont let any of these arguments distract you from the fact that Banjo-Kazooie is the best character that will ever be added to Smash.

The first ever correct opinion on this thread has been spoken! This is truly a historical moment!

 

[TheAJJohnson]

Alright then. Let's weigh in a few things:

- If we get a Bamco rep, it's not Heihachi. I think a Tales Of rep - namely Lloyd or Yuri - has the most going for them. Being expressly talked about being included in interviews, the new trademarks, the absent Mii costume, and not being part of Pac-Man's taunt are just some things in their favor.
- Regarding Sakurai's comment about characters being fun, it's asinine to assume that being well known, relevant, or popular aren't important as well. Sometimes characters get in on the merit of being interesting or fun to play with, but I would argue that's not the main reason why about 70%+ of the roster is playable.
- I'm not 100% on the Mii costume leak being dead. I do put stock in Vergeben saying that they aren't FP5, but I am banking on Geno being revealed as post-pass DLC. In fact, I'll be bold and say he'll be the first one revealed. If he's not a fighter, he'll fit sure be a costume and will come with a song or two (which is good enough for me, honestly...I just want Beware the Forest Mushrooms) I also think that a Bethesda rep is very possible, whether or not it's Doomguy is debatable.
- If I were to bet on what I think the two most likely companies to have their character rep the 5th slot, I would say Bamco and Activision. I think Capcom could have a ppst-pass fighter, but I don't think it's likely. And if it does happen, it won't be from RE.