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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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SharkLord

Smash Hero
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Jun 20, 2020
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Pangaea, 250 MYA
Robin's the closest thing we've got to the magic-user fighter I wanted.

It's not terribly close to what I wanted in a mage newcomer, but it was a good start.

The sword also keeps them from abusing their tomes too much throughout an entire match, which was a nice touch. How much this relates to any mechanics in Awakening, I'm not yet sure because I still haven't played it lol.
To be fair, Robin's unique Tactician class was made specifically to be equal parts spells and swordfighting; They just started leaning towards the spells in later installments to try and balance out all the other swordfighters.

If you want a fully-fledged magic user, I'm sure one of these little guys should do the trick:
1605910957612.png
 

Ivander

Smash Legend
Joined
Dec 1, 2014
Messages
10,294
To be fair, Robin's unique Tactician class was made specifically to be equal parts spells and swordfighting; They just started leaning towards the spells in later installments to try and balance out all the other swordfighters.

If you want a fully-fledged magic user, I'm sure one of these little guys should do the trick:
View attachment 292340
There are times when I'm legitimately curious on if they choose to have a Black Mage in the game, on whether or not they'll actually do a Black Mage character or Vivi. Cause Vivi is one of the most memorable Black Mage characters, but the Black Mage's whole hidden face with glowing eyes is iconic to the Job class in general. I'd like to say maybe both, but Vivi is a small character meaning it wouldn't be easy to do Vivi as an alternate costume to a Black Mage and vice-versa.

At the very least, we'll know their Final Smash will be Hadoken.
 
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KingofPhantoms

The Spook Factor
Joined
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32,740
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Southern California
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To be fair, Robin's unique Tactician class was made specifically to be equal parts spells and swordfighting; They just started leaning towards the spells in later installments to try and balance out all the other swordfighters.

If you want a fully-fledged magic user, I'm sure one of these little guys should do the trick:
View attachment 292340
I have no shame in admitting SSF2's Black Mage was one of the biggest reasons why I've wanted a magic-user in Smash since the Wii U/3DS games. :p
 

MrMcNuts

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 15, 2018
Messages
815
That's funny. There's only one thing that I've ever agreed with Terry on and that's that Rayman has a solid shot at being in Smash. But every single other thing he says has always been garbage lmao.
Terry is the one dude that makes me embarrassed to be a Rayman fan..... I swear the majority of the community is not like him lol
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2018
Messages
1,534
So, Age of Calamity is officially out and i gotta say, i really love how they fleshed out the Champions (i mean in regards to their abilities and fighting style in particular). Ngl i'd be way more interested to see one of them in Smash now that we have a better idea of how they could fight. Not saying that they would be the best choice for a Zelda rep or anything (or that we 'need' a Zelda rep for that matter) just that AoC changed my opinion about how cool they could be in Smash.

Also, the strongest argument for their inclusion /s , their new battle themes are just epic :


(btw, i really recommend listening to the whole soundtrack if you're not planning on playing the game itself, it's a really good ost imo. They took a lot of the musical themes that were more subtle or ambient in BotW and basically remixed them into epic battle themes, anyway i think they did a great job with that)

Impa's moveset and abilities are pretty sick too, really flashy, just lots of cool techno mage/ninja moves. Her duplication ability in particular is really fun/satisfying to use. So yeah, all in all, kinda like the Champions, seeing how they portrayed her in AoC kinda convinced me that she could be a great addition to Smash as well.
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
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Jun 20, 2020
Messages
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Pangaea, 250 MYA
Terry is the one dude that makes me embarrassed to be a Rayman fan..... I swear the majority of the community is not like him lol
I mainly remember him as the guy who just goes around and says "youre most wanted wont get into smash" and then whenever someone talks smack about Shantae he immediately starts asking what you have against her.

Then again it's been a while since I went around Twitter circles. Dunno if anything's changed.
 

MrMcNuts

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 15, 2018
Messages
815
I mainly remember him as the guy who just goes around and says "youre most wanted wont get into smash" and then whenever someone talks smack about Shantae he immediately starts asking what you have against her.

Then again it's been a while since I went around Twitter circles. Dunno if anything's changed.
He hasn't changed one bit lol

And in defense of shantae fans in pretty sure they hate him too from what I've seen
 

KingofPhantoms

The Spook Factor
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Southern California
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Terry is the one dude that makes me embarrassed to be a Rayman fan..... I swear the majority of the community is not like him lol
A lot of support bases have "that one" fan.

I could name one or two here, but it's for the best that I don't bring it up. The past is the past.
 

Freduardo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
2,331
So, Age of Calamity is officially out and i gotta say, i really love how they fleshed out the Champions (i mean in regards to their abilities and fighting style in particular). Ngl i'd be way more interested to see one of them in Smash now that we have a better idea of how they could fight. Not saying that they would be the best choice for a Zelda rep or anything (or that we 'need' a Zelda rep for that matter) just that AoC changed my opinion about how cool they could be in Smash.

Also, the strongest argument for their inclusion /s , their new battle themes are just epic :


(btw, i really recommend listening to the whole soundtrack if you're not planning on playing the game itself, it's a really good ost imo. They took a lot of the musical themes that were more subtle or ambient in BotW and basically remixed them into epic battle themes, anyway i think they did a great job with that)

Impa's moveset and abilities are pretty sick too, really flashy, just lots of cool techno mage/ninja moves. Her duplication ability in particular is really fun/satisfying to use. So yeah, all in all, kinda like the Champions, seeing how they portrayed her in AoC kinda convinced me that she could be a great addition to Smash as well.
You’re missing the obvious character from age of calamity:

Baby Sidon.

And I’m only saying this to get a baby sidon amiibo.
 

Wunderwaft

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
3,463
Ya know I've always talked about how the assist system in Smash could be improved to be like standard FGC assists instead of just being a randomized item that will never see the light of day in competitive play (which is something me and a lot of others play Smash for). Some assists would obviously have to either change their function or be removed to accommodate for balance, but I think the trade off is worth it imo.

The reason why I'm bringing this up is because McLeod who made Super Smash Flash 2 is developing a brand new indie crossover platform fighter called Fraymakers and the assist system is exactly what I wanted for Smash. A system where you pick an assist character before the match and use a meter to summon the character for it to do it's role quickly and then disappear. What do you all think about the idea of a traditional FGC style assist system for Smash instead of what we currently have?

 

7NATOR

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
4,077
For Gameplay stuff

-I Want a Character that Fights by Glitching out the Game, which is Something I haven't seen Done before in any Game. I think Missingno would fit Very well, and would make a Good Surprise Character in Smash 6

-I want a Character that Has Portals As a Gimmick. So Someone like Chell from Portal, Wraith from Apex Legends, and Noob Saibot from Mortal Kombat would be good. Speaking of Noob

-I want a Character that Fights using a Clone. Noob would be amazing for this, But I actually think if they Make Dark Samus Unique, they could give her Clone ability to her in Smash 6

-I want a Character with Permanent Transformations, or Transformations you can Stay in forever if you keep up your Resources. I want Goku to have this, but Agumon would also work well

-I Want a Character with a Katana and Iado Fight style, and I want Vergil to take that mantle, but I also Really don't mind and Would be Cool with Lyn. In fact I wouldn't mind if we got her this FP2 (and would be kinda Excited) even if she be 9th Fire Emblem Character, but she deserves it though

-I want a Character that, as one of my friends said it "Rewards you for Doing Good" Pretty much you get buffed for Playing well, pretty much the Opposite of Lucario's Aura Mechanic. I think Dante (and Vergil) would make use of this well with the Style Ranking. Perhaps the more Style you have the better Damage you do, or Perhaps the longer you Devil Trigger lasts

-I Want a Character that Manipulates Time and Space, but in a More Offensive manner, like Dio's Time Freeze or Geras Time Moves, or maybe even Sakuya Izayoi Time shenigains with her Knives. But Of Course I want SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG to do this among all else. Bayonetta witch Time isn't as cool since it's a Counter

-I want a Character that has Teleport Combos or Teleport Cancels like DBZ. Goku and Shadow would Be perfect for this. I know there's the Ledge cancel thing but I want to do these without the Need for Ledges

-I want a Character with an Airdash. Reimu could probably have this, or perhaps Sol badguy or Ragna, but I'd prefer Reimu

-I want More characters with Super Armor, like Little Mac, especially if they re-tune Make in Smash 6 and take away his Super Armor. I think Black Knight would be Cool, but My Dream pick would be Broly.

I Want a Character with a Scythe, and I also want Characters with Lightsabers or Beam Swords (Shulk's Beam sword does not have Lightsaber sound effects). Travis would be good for later, but besides Zasameal from Soul Calbur, I can't think of anyone else

I Want a Character that fights using Dancing, like if they put Michael Jackson in Smash. Waluigi Unironically would be good for this, since his Most Important role was in Mario Dance Dance Revolution


Just.... Why? Like, even if by some miracle Shadow is in Bayonetta 3, why would he be chosen to promote that game? That would be the same thing as Nintendo choosing Dante to promote Shin Megami Tensei 3 HD. If they want to promote Bayonetta 3 that bad they would just go with Jeanne, Balder or Rodin.
Here's the Thing

Bayonetta 3 wouldn't be the Sole reason Shadow gets in, but it could be major factor in him getting chosen over Other Characters.

People want Shadow, and People, even Casuals, know who Shadow is. If Shadow was in Bayonetta 3, that would get more people interested. If Shadow was in Smash, that would also give more attention towards Bayonetta 3 in the Process.

Much More People want and Know who Shadow is than Jeanne, Balder, and Rodin.

Nintendo might have even asked Sega, and then Platinum if they could add Shadow to the Game, Since Sonic Is still selling very well, especially on Nintendo (with Forces and Mania Especially), and Sonic been killing it on Mobile. Shadow fits The Bayonetta universe very well so It's like Win Win
 

Guynamednelson

Smash Legend
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Nelson340
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Here's the Thing

Bayonetta 3 wouldn't be the Sole reason Shadow gets in, but it could be major factor in him getting chosen over Other Characters.

People want Shadow, and People, even Casuals, know who Shadow is. If Shadow was in Bayonetta 3, that would get more people interested. If Shadow was in Smash, that would also give more attention towards Bayonetta 3 in the Process.

Much More People want and Know who Shadow is than Jeanne, Balder, and Rodin.

Nintendo might have even asked Sega, and then Platinum if they could add Shadow to the Game, Since Sonic Is still selling very well, especially on Nintendo (with Forces and Mania Especially), and Sonic been killing it on Mobile. Shadow fits The Bayonetta universe very well so It's like Win Win
But would Sonic Team even be okay with it? Bayonetta kinda-sorta-not-really interacting with Shadow in an all-ages game like Smash is one thing, but Bayonetta is a game that deservingly gets 17+/18+ ratings worldwide.
 
Joined
Oct 31, 2018
Messages
1,057
What do you all think about the idea of a traditional FGC style assist system for Smash instead of what we currently have?
I wouldn't mind it, but those kind of things tend to result in one option being used all the time because it's considered to be superior, either in the whole game, or on a character to character basis. For instance, one assist might be the best for combo extension, and another is the best at killing, and a third is the best at blocking an approach. Those three would be used all the time and others that do the same job would never be used because they aren't as good.

There's ways to balance assists such as having different meter gain, but there are certain kinds of assists that really wouldn't care about meter at all because you're only using them once per stock. It would also potentially change how the fighters are balanced, since they would now have access to assists that can cover for their weaknesses or complement their strengths. It might result in vastly more polarized playstyles.

It's not a bad idea, but it needs more work put into them than what we have right now.
 

Perkilator

Smash Legend
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Apr 8, 2018
Messages
10,576
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The perpetual trash fire known as Planet Earth(tm)
Here's the Thing

Bayonetta 3 wouldn't be the Sole reason Shadow gets in, but it could be major factor in him getting chosen over Other Characters.

People want Shadow, and People, even Casuals, know who Shadow is. If Shadow was in Bayonetta 3, that would get more people interested. If Shadow was in Smash, that would also give more attention towards Bayonetta 3 in the Process.

Much More People want and Know who Shadow is than Jeanne, Balder, and Rodin.

Nintendo might have even asked Sega, and then Platinum if they could add Shadow to the Game, Since Sonic Is still selling very well, especially on Nintendo (with Forces and Mania Especially), and Sonic been killing it on Mobile. Shadow fits The Bayonetta universe very well so It's like Win Win
Jesus, even I don't go through so many mental gymnastics to justify my beliefs that Assist Trophies aren't DLC in the same game as being an Assist Trophy until proven othewise.
 

7NATOR

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
4,077
But would Sonic Team even be okay with it? Bayonetta kinda-sorta-not-really interacting with Shadow in an all-ages game like Smash is one thing, but Bayonetta is a game that deservingly gets 17+/18+ ratings worldwide.
I think if it was any other Character from Sonic (Besides maybe Silver, Perhaps Rouge and Omega), Probably Not, especially Sonic

Shadow is Different though. Shadow is the Character I would say appeals the most to the More Mature Audience, especially back in the day. Shadow the Hedgehog, the Game was a thing after all. Kids Wanted a Game where Sonic could use Guns, but because Sega wasn't down for Sonic using Guns like that, they used Shadow since he's the Most Serious character in the Franchise.

Now Granted Shadow was rated E10 instead of T, and was actually censored for the E10 rating to be a thing. Shadow was to be the Major Sonic Game at the time, So I think they tried to have lower rating for more appeal

In this Scenario, I would imagine there be Multiple Sonic Games coming out next Year, and Those games will already appeal to the Kids (that don't play Rated T or M Games). So I think they have more freedom to Use Shadow in a Game like Bayonetta that's Rated M

and Bayonetta, even if it's a M rating, isn't a Game that's too Graphic or anything like that. They do have torture attacks, and Bayonetta does get Sexual and naked at times, But I think it could work. We can Finally have Shadow using Guns again
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

Smash Legend
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12,282
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Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
What do you all think about the idea of a traditional FGC style assist system for Smash instead of what we currently have?
I don't think they even need to replace Assist Trophies, just be a thing in and of itself. Like, reasonable characters like Krystal could be made into these assists, while the more bonkers stuff like The Moon remain as Assist Trophies.

-I Want a Character that Fights by Glitching out the Game, which is Something I haven't seen Done before in any Game. I think Missingno would fit Very well, and would make a Good Surprise Character in Smash 6
The problem with this is that MissingNo isn't an official character. It's just a glitch that I doubt The Pokémon Company will ever allow to be brought up with anything official.

-I Want a Character that Manipulates Time and Space, but in a More Offensive manner, like Dio's Time Freeze or Geras Time Moves, or maybe even Sakuya Izayoi Time shenigains with her Knives. But Of Course I want SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG to do this among all else. Bayonetta witch Time isn't as cool since it's a Counter
Actually, counters are ironically offensive abilities, as they don't really protect you so much as they are a "no u" button used when you know the opponent will strike. The problem with Witch Time is that it's too powerful at its most interesting, and functions like pretty much any other counter in its current state.

But would Sonic Team even be okay with it? Bayonetta kinda-sorta-not-really interacting with Shadow in an all-ages game like Smash is one thing, but Bayonetta is a game that deservingly gets 17+/18+ ratings worldwide.
Honestly, I wouldn't put it past them considering his character is stuck in Shadow the Hedgehog nowadays. Even then though I don't think he fits Bayonetta's world aesthetically or tonally since his brand of edgyness is pretty much devoid of humor (I mean, he's not supposed to be like that, but that's how he is in that context), and Bayonetta is supposed to be bombastic.
 
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mariofan48

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 4, 2010
Messages
378
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mariorocks4life
Ya know I've always talked about how the assist system in Smash could be improved to be like standard FGC assists instead of just being a randomized item that will never see the light of day in competitive play (which is something me and a lot of others play Smash for). Some assists would obviously have to either change their function or be removed to accommodate for balance, but I think the trade off is worth it imo.

The reason why I'm bringing this up is because McLeod who made Super Smash Flash 2 is developing a brand new indie crossover platform fighter called Fraymakers and the assist system is exactly what I wanted for Smash. A system where you pick an assist character before the match and use a meter to summon the character for it to do it's role quickly and then disappear. What do you all think about the idea of a traditional FGC style assist system for Smash instead of what we currently have?

****... Seeing Fancy Pants Man as an assist breaks my heart.
 

Cosmic77

Smash Hero
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Dec 17, 2017
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9,547
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On a planet far far away...
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Some of you are turning first grade arithmetic into college algebra.

If Shadow gets in, it's probably because Sonic the Hedgehog is a very iconic third-party franchise and Shadow is one of the most popular/iconic characters. Regardless of whether or not Shadow is in Bayonetta 3, I doubt they're gonna use that as their reason to add him. Like I said a few days ago, third-parties are rarely used to promote new games, and Hero is the only example we have in Ultimate so far.
 

mariofan48

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Dec 4, 2010
Messages
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mariorocks4life
Some of you are turning first grade arithmetic into college algebra.

If Shadow gets in, it's probably because Sonic the Hedgehog is a very iconic third-party franchise and Shadow is one of the most popular/iconic characters. Regardless of whether or not Shadow is in Bayonetta 3, I doubt they're gonna use that as their reason to add him. Like I said a few days ago, third-parties are rarely used to promote new games, and Hero is the only example we have in Ultimate so far.
Byleth?
 

SKX31

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
3,463
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Sweden
I believe this is what we call a "Stone Wall," trading attack for defense. K. Rool kinda counts thanks to his defensive abilities, but his attack power is too high to be a straight example. Shield Art Shulk also counts, taking forever to kill but not being able to deal much damage himself, but that's a limited-time buff.

I have a couple ideas in mind, but they're both Touhou characters that aren't Reimu so I don't see them happening at the moment. Also Appletun, but any Pokemon that isn't a starter or the most popular of the generation is probably going to get passed over in the speculative scene.
I'd argue that :ultrosalina: kinda counts as a defensive Stone Wall;

  • Luma's good at controlling space, partly because it can't suffer from status effects and it can attack / shoot Star Bits remotely (and Luma gains a 1.5x damage boost when far away from Rosa). There is a 10 secs cooldown on Luma's respawn (which is shorter in FFAs), so in those periods the Rosa will want to be more cautious.
  • She can outright nullify projectiles and items with Gravitational Pull.
  • Several of her moves are frame traps or mind game-centric.
  • She's floaty and rather lightweight, making mistakes potentially costly for her and thus encouraging her to play in a more defensive manner. This is a bit of a counterpoint; the primary reason she doesn't fit the classic Stone Wall archetype,

Actually, counters are ironically offensive abilities, as they don't really protect you so much as they are a "no u" button used when you know the opponent will strike. The problem with Witch Time is that it's too powerful at its most interesting, and functions like pretty much any other counter in its current state.
Which brings up an interesting - but extremely difficult - question: namely how to best design counter-attacks / armored attacks. Another problem - IMO - with many counters in Smash is that they're highly commital: people either throw them out as a desperation move or as a hard read, and they become not that effective outside of casual settings, the aformentioned hard reads or edgeguards. Still, counters does have its uses, albeit niché. If they're not absurdly powerful like :4bayonetta: and :4corrin: 's were.

Armor in itself is not a bad idea, but there can be characters that are over-reliant on them (I'd argue :ultlittlemac: 's design over-emphasizes this as an attempt to allieviate the intentional aerial problems he has). Armor can have its multitude of uses too - see Tough Guy and Rool's Belly Armor, so I kinda lean towards that as the basis of a counter-attack. Perhaps with some damage mitigation on top, although with a slowdown or something else as a (minor) draw back.

So, to go back to the question: How would you ideally design counters?
 

Wunderwaft

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
3,463
I wouldn't mind it, but those kind of things tend to result in one option being used all the time because it's considered to be superior, either in the whole game, or on a character to character basis. For instance, one assist might be the best for combo extension, and another is the best at killing, and a third is the best at blocking an approach. Those three would be used all the time and others that do the same job would never be used because they aren't as good.

There's ways to balance assists such as having different meter gain, but there are certain kinds of assists that really wouldn't care about meter at all because you're only using them once per stock. It would also potentially change how the fighters are balanced, since they would now have access to assists that can cover for their weaknesses or complement their strengths. It might result in vastly more polarized playstyles.

It's not a bad idea, but it needs more work put into them than what we have right now.
That is true, the meta and balancing of the game will be much different from usual if assists are much more integrated into the core gameplay. Ganondorf for example could have a recovery assist that can cover for his bad recovery and whatnot. We've never had something like this before in a platform fighter which is why I'm excited about how this could be implemented potentially for Smash in the future. It'll definitely need a lot of work and balancing to be done with it though, so no Rathalos swooping in and blasting the entire stage to the blast zone.

I don't think they even need to replace Assist Trophies, just be a thing in and of itself. Like, reasonable characters like Krystal could be made into these assists, while the more bonkers stuff like The Moon remain as Assist Trophies.
I don't actually think the entire assist trophy system as we know it should be removed. Impractical ATs like the moon could remain as items. But the practical ones could be reworked into viable and balanced choices for the core gameplay.
 

7NATOR

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
4,077
I don't think they even need to replace Assist Trophies, just be a thing in and of itself. Like, reasonable characters like Krystal could be made into these assists, while the more bonkers stuff like The Moon remain as Assist Trophies.


The problem with this is that MissingNo isn't an official character. It's just a glitch that I doubt The Pokémon Company will ever allow to be brought up with anything official.


Actually, counters are ironically offensive abilities, as they don't really protect you so much as they are a "no u" button used when you know the opponent will strike. The problem with Witch Time is that it's too powerful at its most interesting, and functions like pretty much any other counter in its current state.


Honestly, I wouldn't put it past them considering his character is stuck in Shadow the Hedgehog nowadays. Even then though I don't think he fits Bayonetta's world aesthetically or tonally since his brand of edgyness is pretty much devoid of humor (I mean, he's not supposed to be like that, but that's how he is in that context), and Bayonetta is supposed to be bombastic.

1. Yeah I Kind of figure that The Pokemon Company wouldn't be down for the Idea. It would be a cool concept though, but I can't really think of anyone else that is based around Glitches. I guess that's what the Future of Gaming is for

2. I Guess. I still see it more as something on the Defense, but could be offensively used as well too. But I guess I want something that's not just based around a Counter

3. I Don't know about this. In comparison to SA2-06, Shadow's Edgy nature is more played off for Laughs nowadays. Boom and Lego Dimensions are examples of that, as well as the Twitter Takedowns. I think they could make Shadow's Edgy nature work with Bayonetta, Especially since Shadow is like Sonic in Personality in alot of Aspects, one of them being the Cockiness that Sonic has, which fits for a Action game like Bayonetta

Some of you are turning first grade arithmetic into college algebra.

If Shadow gets in, it's probably because Sonic the Hedgehog is a very iconic third-party franchise and Shadow is one of the most popular/iconic characters. Regardless of whether or not Shadow is in Bayonetta 3, I doubt they're gonna use that as their reason to add him. Like I said a few days ago, third-parties are rarely used to promote new games, and Hero is the only example we have in Ultimate so far.
That would be the Main Reason yes, But I think a Character needs every advantage they can get in order to get one of those FP2 Slots

so if Shadow was in Bayonetta 3, and they could use Him in Smash to not only get more DLC Sales from Kids, Sonic Fans, and Smash fans, but also they could put more attention on Bayonetta 3 and make themselves even more in the Long run, All while probably Re-using the AT Model and Assets from Sonic to make things easier, while still crafting unique moveset
 

7NATOR

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
4,077
I'd argue that :ultrosalina: kinda counts as a defensive Stone Wall;

  • Luma's good at controlling space, partly because it can't suffer from status effects and it can attack / shoot Star Bits remotely (and Luma gains a 1.5x damage boost when far away from Rosa). There is a 10 secs cooldown on Luma's respawn (which is shorter in FFAs), so in those periods the Rosa will want to be more cautious.
  • She can outright nullify projectiles and items with Gravitational Pull.
  • Several of her moves are frame traps or mind game-centric.
  • She's floaty and rather lightweight, making mistakes potentially costly for her and thus encouraging her to play in a more defensive manner. This is a bit of a counterpoint; the primary reason she doesn't fit the classic Stone Wall archetype,



Which brings up an interesting - but extremely difficult - question: namely how to best design counter-attacks / armored attacks. Another problem - IMO - with many counters in Smash is that they're highly commital: people either throw them out as a desperation move or as a hard read, and they become not that effective outside of casual settings, the aformentioned hard reads or edgeguards. Still, counters does have its uses, albeit niché. If they're not absurdly powerful like :4bayonetta: and :4corrin: 's were.

Armor in itself is not a bad idea, but there can be characters that are over-reliant on them (I'd argue :ultlittlemac: 's design over-emphasizes this as an attempt to allieviate the intentional aerial problems he has). Armor can have its multitude of uses too - see Tough Guy and Rool's Belly Armor, so I kinda lean towards that as the basis of a counter-attack. Perhaps with some damage mitigation on top, although with a slowdown or something else as a (minor) draw back.

So, to go back to the question: How would you ideally design counters?
The only thing I could think of is Maybe make a Move have a Counter window

Like the move will come out regardless of whether the opponent hits you, but if you Counter their attack at the right time, the attacks gets added Benefits, like more damage or other properties

Perhaps it could work like Counter hits in Tekken, in that sort of Fashion


Did you forget that this pass started with a goddamn ARMS rep? A series whose chances were thought to be screwed because Three Houses is newer?
I do Remember that, But I also remember that Nintendo was giving out Free trial of ARMS in Same Presentation. it looked like Nintendo was promoting a Recent new Nintendo I.P that did very good numbers for a New I.P in the Fighting game genre. ARMS Never had a Character in the game, unlike Xenoblade. Xenoblade can still get character, but I'm just saying that's advantage for ARMS

Pretty much they were giving ARMS Spotlight, but also people did want to see ARMS in Smash (even if alot of the time it was just people were expecting it), so there was that
 

Guynamednelson

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Messages
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I do Remember that, But I also remember that Nintendo was giving out Free trial of ARMS in Same Presentation. it looked like Nintendo was promoting a Recent new Nintendo I.P that did very good numbers for a New I.P in the Fighting game genre. ARMS Never had a Character in the game, unlike Xenoblade. Xenoblade can still get character, but I'm just saying that's advantage for ARMS

Pretty much they were giving ARMS Spotlight, but also people did want to see ARMS in Smash (even if alot of the time it was just people were expecting it), so there was that
In my eyes, only two DLC characters so far were utilizing multiple advantages, and they were the E3 Duo:

:ulthero:: Ballot requests, hugely iconic franchise in Japan, the latest game was getting an enhanced Switch port that they promoted using the pack by specifically saying the Luminary's from XI S, not XI.
:ultbanjokazooie: : Ballot requests, former Nintendo exclusive, keeps Microsoft on board while Sakurai is unable to make Steve without draining too much of his newcomer budget.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

Smash Legend
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Which brings up an interesting - but extremely difficult - question: namely how to best design counter-attacks / armored attacks. Another problem - IMO - with many counters in Smash is that they're highly commital: people either throw them out as a desperation move or as a hard read, and they become not that effective outside of casual settings, the aformentioned hard reads or edgeguards. Still, counters does have its uses, albeit niché. If they're not absurdly powerful like :4bayonetta: and :4corrin: 's were.

Armor in itself is not a bad idea, but there can be characters that are over-reliant on them (I'd argue :ultlittlemac: 's design over-emphasizes this as an attempt to allieviate the intentional aerial problems he has). Armor can have its multitude of uses too - see Tough Guy and Rool's Belly Armor, so I kinda lean towards that as the basis of a counter-attack. Perhaps with some damage mitigation on top, although with a slowdown or something else as a (minor) draw back.

So, to go back to the question: How would you ideally design counters?
By giving them something other than a damage multiplier. As it stands, most counters are attacks out of shield if they had no combo ability, and had K.O. potential sometimes, and Witch Time is literally an attack out of shield with time to set up. Counter/Reflectors see good use as reflectors, and special counters that do something specific are often better than normal counters as well with things like Rebel's Guard and Revenge helping to stop projectile zoning and recklessness.

Poor Little Mac. His moveset takes real world mechanics and turns them into something that is neither Super Smash Bros. nor PUNCH OUT!!. Taking what he has and making it less polarizing is a given, but he also really needs to reward good play rather than bad. I don't know how exactly the original K.O. punch meter worked, but the more recent Star Punch was only given to you when you did something difficult, like interrupting a signature attack. I think Little Mac's design should reflect this, giving him a star whenever he does something like Spot Dodging and attack, Countering one, or interrupting some specific ones like Ganondorf's Forward Smash that could be spent to do a more powerful punch. The more stars you get (up to three), the more powerful the punch. This would both make it not a pretty unhelpful comeback mechanic, and make the move more interesting in general.
 

ahemtoday

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 30, 2020
Messages
874
An ideal "glitching" fighter would be Gyigas
I... don't think so. He does go all static-y in Earthbound, but I've never thought of that as a defining element of him. And - while I know a lot of people underestimate how many characters could actually work in Smash - there's no way that version of him could work as a fighter.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but it seems like a regular occurrence that people see how creepy Giygas is and then like to staple other creepy stuff onto him that has no actual connection, which always annoys me. You see this sort of thing with other characters too. Actually, Missingno is another example of this - I've seen people associate it with a whole bunch of reality-warping eldritch-abomination concepts, when really the most it does is mess up the Hall of Fame and give you way more of the sixth item in your bag.

Poor Little Mac. His moveset takes real world mechanics and turns them into something that is neither Super Smash Bros. nor PUNCH OUT!!. Taking what he has and making it less polarizing is a given, but he also really needs to reward good play rather than bad. I don't know how exactly the original K.O. punch meter worked, but the more recent Star Punch was only given to you when you did something difficult, like interrupting a signature attack. I think Little Mac's design should reflect this, giving him a star whenever he does something like Spot Dodging and attack, Countering one, or interrupting some specific ones like Ganondorf's Forward Smash that could be spent to do a more powerful punch. The more stars you get (up to three), the more powerful the punch. This would both make it not a pretty unhelpful comeback mechanic, and make the move more interesting in general.
Yeah, Mac's moveset has never really struck me as at all representative of how Punch-Out actually works. He's honestly one of the prime examples of Smash sticking gimmicks onto a character that they don't quite fit on (which Ultimate improves on - there's still a lot of (arguably unnecessary) gimmicks about nowadays, but at least they're accurate to the source material). He should be a punish-based character whose main shtick is dodging, shielding, countering, or preempting enemy attacks.

I originally had a big writeup here on how I would change him, but honestly you wouldn't have to change that much about him. Switch out his neutral-B for Star Punch, get rid of his armor, make his aerials better. Heck, most of his move animations make perfect sense: he's a boxer, so it makes sense to give him more boxing moves beyond the four punches he can throw in the games. In a way, I guess that makes changing him in this way pretty reasonable.
 
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