Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Basically:
Rekka are specials moves that can lead into different attacks with different inputs. Normal moves performed by mashing the button like a jab or an autocombo don't count. A good example of a rekka move would be Kyo of King of Fighters fame. You can see them here, around the 1:20 mark.

And for a Smash specific example, Marth/Lucina/Roy/Chrom's side B is very much the most textbook definition of a rekka special.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Speaking of Smash speculation, is anyone here familiar with the name 'terry syvertson'?

....oh no

OH DEAR SWEET JESUS NO ANYBODY BUT HIM.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Speaking of Smash speculation, is anyone here familiar with the name 'terry syvertson'?

No? Why?

....oh no

OH DEAR SWEET JESUS NO ANYBODY BUT HIM.

...Do I even want to know?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

No? Why?



...Do I even want to know?

Infamous smash troll on twitter. He’ll flame you if your wanted list consists of anyone except any of the following: Geno, Rayman, Shantae, Sora. He’s been banned from twitter before, in fact, for straight up telling people to off themselves

 

[Perkilator]

Speaking of Smash speculation, is anyone here familiar with the name 'terry syvertson'?

“terry syvertson”? I know that little goblin from Twitter! He’s been bugging people with his negativity for MONTHS!

 

[mariofan48]

Infamous smash troll on twitter. He’ll flame you if your wanted list consists of anyone except any of the following: Geno, Rayman, Shantae, Sora. He’s been banned from twitter before, in fact, for straight up telling people to off themselves

That's funny. There's only one thing that I've ever agreed with Terry on and that's that Rayman has a solid shot at being in Smash. But every single other thing he says has always been garbage lmao.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Just to continue on the archetype concept, are there any archetypes we already have in Smash that you would really like to see again? Whether it's a new spin on the concept or something that you feel is underutilized, or you just really like that kind of character.

Personally, I'd like to see another smaller disjointed character, but with fewer projectiles, since they tend to compensate for their stature by throwing stuff.

I'd also like to see something Captain Falcon-esque, where the character is more risky but has big damage potential.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Just to continue on the archetype concept, are there any archetypes we already have in Smash that you would really like to see again? Whether it's a new spin on the concept or something that you feel is underutilized, or you just really like that kind of character.

Personally, I'd like to see another smaller disjointed character, but with fewer projectiles, since they tend to compensate for their stature by throwing stuff.

I'd also like to see something Captain Falcon-esque, where the character is more risky but has big damage potential.

Maybe a tag-team character that uses shield special to swap rather than down special, giving you complete movesets rather than missing out on one.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Personally, I'd like to see another smaller disjointed character, but with fewer projectiles, since they tend to compensate for their stature by throwing stuff.

Eeeh, this just reminds me of how much I dislike Mega Knight. He and King Dedede bother me 'cuz like, they've got a better moveset right there, just...USE IT!!

But yeah, I think this idea could be fun so long as they don't royally screw it up.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Eeeh, this just reminds me of how much I dislike Mega Knight. He and King Dedede bother me 'cuz like, they've got a better moveset right there, just...USE IT!!

But yeah, I think this idea could be fun so long as they don't royally screw it up.

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the child Links and the Mother kids minus all the keepaway. I would really love Ice Climbers, except that I don't really like dealing with the team stuff.

I can understand with Meta Knight, though. He's in a weird spot.

 

[ahemtoday]

To be honest, I've never quite gotten the appeal of transformation characters. Like, a transformation character is just, like, two movesets arbitrarily stapled together most of the time. Am I supposed to use both? Because that's probably not what's going to happen. It's certainly not what happened with Sheik. What am I supposed to do if I only like one? When am I supposed to be switching? I just have no idea how I'm supposed to feel about these sorts of characters.

And why are they so common in fan movesets when only one transformation character has actually stayed... transformation - for reasons I'm convinced are because the Pokemon Trainer is technically a character on the roster? I once saw fan ideas for a Smash 6 where Mario's new down special was that he jumped on Yoshi and started using Yoshi's moveset, and Bowser's new down special was a Koopa Clown Car that let him use Bowser Jr.'s! I have no idea what the thought process even was with that!

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

To be honest, I've never quite gotten the appeal of transformation characters. Like, a transformation character is just, like, two movesets arbitrarily stapled together most of the time. Am I supposed to use both? Because that's probably not what's going to happen. It's certainly not what happened with Sheik. What am I supposed to do if I only like one? When am I supposed to be switching? I just have no idea how I'm supposed to feel about these sorts of characters.

And why are they so common in fan movesets when only one transformation character has actually stayed... transformation - for reasons I'm convinced are because the Pokemon Trainer is technically a character on the roster? I once saw fan ideas for a Smash 6 where Mario's new down special was that he jumped on Yoshi and started using Yoshi's moveset, and Bowser's new down special was a Koopa Clown Car that let him use Bowser Jr.'s! I have no idea what the thought process even was with that!

I think this is why a stance-change character is so appealing to a lot of people. It's not two different entities, just one that switches some tools out to account for different situations. It's a much more graceful implementation of the same idea that doesn't require learning multiple characters and doesn't run into as many balancing issues. It's just a character with a lot of tools, but not all at the same time.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Just to continue on the archetype concept, are there any archetypes we already have in Smash that you would really like to see again? Whether it's a new spin on the concept or something that you feel is underutilized, or you just really like that kind of character.

Personally, I'd like to see another smaller disjointed character, but with fewer projectiles, since they tend to compensate for their stature by throwing stuff.

I'd also like to see something Captain Falcon-esque, where the character is more risky but has big damage potential.

I want some more Super Heavy weight characters on the scale of Bowser and King K Rool or Rushdown characters like Captain Falcon and Roy.

On the note of new character archetypes, I don't think we have a purely defensive character who's playstyle is Defense being the greatest Offense. The character would be a super heavyweight and have weak attacks but have special properties like reflectors, absorption, stuff that'd make the character like a tank. No idea who would work like that but I want it to be like some kind of Robot.

Oh and a character that indirectly attacks you with status conditions like Poison, sleep, paralysis, burn, freezing, curse or an elementalist character who's normal attacks use different kinds of elements like Fire, Water, ice. I mean Giga Bowser does this but you can't actually play as him.

 

[SharkLord]

I want some more Super Heavy weight characters on the scale of Bowser and King K Rool or Rushdown characters like Captain Falcon and Roy.

On the note of new character archetypes, I don't think we have a purely defensive character who's playstyle is Defense being the greatest Offense. The character would be a super heavyweight and have weak attacks but have special properties like reflectors, absorption, stuff that'd make the character like a tank. No idea who would work like that.

I believe this is what we call a "Stone Wall," trading attack for defense. K. Rool kinda counts thanks to his defensive abilities, but his attack power is too high to be a straight example. Shield Art Shulk also counts, taking forever to kill but not being able to deal much damage himself, but that's a limited-time buff.

I have a couple ideas in mind, but they're both Touhou characters that aren't Reimu so I don't see them happening at the moment. Also Appletun, but any Pokemon that isn't a starter or the most popular of the generation is probably going to get passed over in the speculative scene.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I want some more Super Heavy weight characters on the scale of Bowser and King K Rool or Rushdown characters like Captain Falcon and Roy.

On the note of new character archetypes, I don't think we have a purely defensive character who's playstyle is Defense being the greatest Offense. The character would be a super heavyweight and have weak attacks but have special properties like reflectors, absorption, stuff that'd make the character like a tank. No idea who would work like that.

Dark Souls' Chosen Undead is the closest I can think of. There's other ways the character could work, but a common strategy in Dark Souls is to become super tanky. You could include a more robust version of Link's shield that can be used on command, a special riposte attack on parry akin to Ridley's skewer, and estus flasks for limited heals. They wouldn't get a reflector, but it's a character that could potentially live for a looooong time. Probably not as passive as you're thinking, though.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Infamous smash troll on twitter. He’ll flame you if your wanted list consists of anyone except any of the following: Geno, Rayman, Shantae, Sora. He’s been banned from twitter before, in fact, for straight up telling people to off themselves

....This sounds like a fairly typical, if extremely aggressive troll, but they must be pretty active to have gained this much notoriety. I would hope that he's not active anymore, at least.

Oh and a character that indirectly attacks you with status conditions like Poison, sleep, paralysis, burn, freezing, curse or an elementalist character who's normal attacks use different kinds of elements like Fire, Water, ice. I mean Giga Bowser does this but you can't actually play as him.

Funny you mention that, this is actually precisely what I'm looking for in a magic-wielding character.

Maybe there'd be concerns it would be too OP or wonky of a character to have that much versatility, but then again, Steve has some arguably even crazier abilities, so who knows. I'd love to see it happen one day.

 

[mariofan48]

I just wanted to say... now that they internet broke once again with Steve... you think they can do it again?

Spoiler

 

[mariofan48]

....This sounds like a fairly typical, if extremely aggressive troll, but they must be pretty active to have gained this much notoriety. I would hope that he's not active anymore, at least.




Funny you mention that, this is actually precisely what I'm looking for in a magic-wielding character.

Maybe there'd be concerns it would be too OP or wonky of a character to have that much versatility, but then again, Steve has some arguably even crazier abilities, so who knows. I'd love to see it happen one day.

Sadly he's still active.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I just wanted to say... now that the internet broke once again with Steve... you think they can do it again?

Spoiler

View attachment 292324

Wasn't this already disconfirmed?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

In regards to an elemental magic user, Its funny that given how much he's overshadowed by you know who that Mallow could arguably be said to have even more potential for a unique moveset given his combination of weather based attacks on top of a potential timed hits system for execution.

 

[mariofan48]

Wasn't this already disconfirmed?

I mean, maybe, but it'd be amazing and certainly make the internet explode again if happened.

 

[SharkLord]

Dark Souls' Chosen Undead is the closest I can think of. There's other ways the character could work, but a common strategy in Dark Souls is to become super tanky. You could include a more robust version of Link's shield that can be used on command, a special riposte attack on parry akin to Ridley's skewer, and estus flasks for limited heals. They wouldn't get a reflector, but it's a character that could potentially live for a looooong time. Probably not as passive as you're thinking, though.

...How did I not think of that

Though speaking seriously, Chosen Undead could work pretty well for a defensive character. As I've said before, they're like an inverse Marth; A strategic swordsman, but in a completely different direction. Marth is fast and requires spacing to make the most of his moves, while Chosen Undead would be slow and require timing instead. Plus, they're both medieval-themed, but Marth goes for an anime aesthetic while Chosen Undead is more realistic.

 

[PacificFun]

Lara's chances looking a little rocky.

There's a rumor that Ubisoft will buy Crystal Dynamics, meaning SE will potentially lose Tomb Raider. It's their third (about to be 2nd) highest selling property.

The rumor is from 4chan so its a coin flip. But I wouldn't be surprised by if it were true.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Lara's chances looking even rockier.

https://twitter.com/GameLeaksRumors/status/1329858999899086848

There's a rumor that Ubisoft will buy Crystal Dynamics, meaning SE will potentially lose Tomb Raider. They're third (about to be 2nd) highest selling property.

For some reason the rest of your post isn’t showing up

edit - fixed now, and I doubt it big time tbh

 

[PacificFun]

For some reason the rest of your post isn’t showing up

It was a URL problem.

 

[SharkLord]

Lara's chances looking a little rocky.

There's a rumor that Ubisoft will buy Crystal Dynamics, meaning SE will potentially lose Tomb Raider. It's their third (about to be 2nd) highest selling property.

The rumor is from 4chan so its a coin flip. But I wouldn't be surprised by if it were true.

4chan

 

[ahemtoday]

I think this is why a stance-change character is so appealing to a lot of people. It's not two different entities, just one that switches some tools out to account for different situations. It's a much more graceful implementation of the same idea that doesn't require learning multiple characters and doesn't run into as many balancing issues. It's just a character with a lot of tools, but not all at the same time.

I mean, honestly, I don't really get those either, and when I said "transformation character" I was including that type of character as well. "Stance characters" seem way more common in fan movesets than (your definition of) "transformation characters", but honestly I still don't see the appeal.

 

[PacificFun]

View attachment 292328

Yeah, Its probably not true but it sure is interesting to think about. Outside of Tomb Raider, the western division of SE hasn't really had that much of an impact. And the failure of Avengers could push them. They're a big company but that's a lot of weight to carry.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Lara's chances looking even rockier.

No idea why but I always keep thinking in my head that Lara Croft is a Ubisoft character.

 

[PacificFun]

No idea why but I always keep thinking in my head that Lara Croft is a Ubisoft character.

Maybe because she was in Brawlhalla and Rainbow Six Siege earlier this year.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

To be honest, I've never quite gotten the appeal of transformation characters. Like, a transformation character is just, like, two movesets arbitrarily stapled together most of the time. Am I supposed to use both? Because that's probably not what's going to happen. It's certainly not what happened with Sheik. What am I supposed to do if I only like one? When am I supposed to be switching? I just have no idea how I'm supposed to feel about these sorts of characters.

This was originally written as one paragraph, but I decided to chop it up for readability.

They're not arbitrarily slapped together, they're done because of the ties the characters have to each other, and they're designed to compliment each other.

People didn't use both Zelda and Sheik because Zelda was a terrible character, and the technology couldn't really handle the mechanic all that well (transforming took too long). People didn't use Samus and Zero Suit Samus because they literally couldn't. It was more of an Easter egg than anything else, and wasn't really a part of their moveset.

The only liking one thing is the argument I think is the strongest; since transformation characters are multiple full characters, I don't think it would be too much to ask for the characters to be available alone as well. Though it could be argued that if you don't like all of the movesets then you don't like the character as a whole, as they are designed to work together. That is their point, and it's where the properly designed one shines.

On that last point though, I think a pretty simple solution to this problem for the Pokémon Trainer, is to allow players to choose their Pokémon. So, say all Pokémon return in the next game (they wouldn't, but say they do). Each Pokémon could be played alone, but they also had a secret "Echo Fighter" designed to work in conjunction with the other 10 Pokémon on the roster. If you wanted to play as the Pokémon Trainer, you would be able to pick any 3 of those 10 characters, granting you with a lot of previously unseen strategies.

For example, you could use Pichu, and then switch to Lucario, buffed by Pichu's self-damaging gimmick. Or you could use Squirtle to close in the gap before switching to Incineroar to force your opponent to deal with your ludicrous damage. You could use just about any Pokémon in conjunction with Jigglypuff to make your offstage play some of the best in the game. With how diverse these characters are, the possibilities are pretty endless.

EDIT: I should add that this isn't something that I would do for all transformation characters. For example, if we got Amingo, SonSon, & Ruby Heart as a transformation character, they would be inseparable, as their mechanics were meant to emulate Marvel Vs. Capcom's 3v3 style.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

4Chan rumors are a dime a dozen.

And they're not even worth said dime.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Maybe because she was in Brawlhalla and Rainbow Six Siege earlier this year.

I'm thinking more like I'm confusing Ubisoft with Eidos and Tomb Raider seems like a game that Ubisoft would make but I suppose that works to.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Yeah, Its probably not true but it sure is interesting to think about. Outside of Tomb Raider, the western division of SE hasn't really had that much of an impact. And the failure of Avengers could push them. They're a big company but that's a lot of weight to carry.

Good point there... that game was delayed for years, became what it is now, and apparently it’s lost 96% of its player base. 96%.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

There's a rumor that Ubisoft will buy Crystal Dynamics, meaning SE will potentially lose Tomb Raider. It's their third (about to be 2nd) highest selling property.

Even if that happens, it wouldn't affect anything for Super Smash Bros. for the same reasons as Microsoft buying Bethesda didn't; The transition happened after the characters were negotiated.

I mean, honestly, I don't really get those either, and when I said "transformation character" I was including that type of character as well. "Stance characters" seem way more common in fan movesets than (your definition of) "transformation characters", but honestly I still don't see the appeal.

I think the appeal with stance characters is that they can generally do a lot of crazy stuff if they've set it up, or have amazing versatility if you're smart. Like, in Guilty Gear Strive, Leo seems to be able to lay on intense pressure by zipping behind their opponents and then spamming these backward attacks with his special stance, and in Granblue Fantasy Versus, I believe Narmaya is able to change her special moves whenever she needs aggression over defense, and vice versa. I admittedly have never played a stance character, but that's where the appeal seems to be.

Note that a stance change is different from a transformation in that it just gives you access to slightly different tools rather than an entirely different moveset.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I mean, honestly, I don't really get those either, and when I said "transformation character" I was including that type of character as well. "Stance characters" seem way more common in fan movesets than (your definition of) "transformation characters", but honestly I still don't see the appeal.

I do think it has to be the right character. I wouldn't make Mario or Bowser a stance changer. That's just unnecessary and convoluted for the sake of it. My take is that if a stance change isn't one of the first three things you think of for the character or it isn't something they do in their own game, then it probably shouldn't be a part of what they do in Smash.

The archetype definitely isn't for everyone. It makes characters more technical and not everyone wants that. That's totally fine.

How do you feel about Min Min? She's sort of a stance change-lite character with her different arms.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Lara's chances looking a little rocky.

There's a rumor that Ubisoft will buy Crystal Dynamics, meaning SE will potentially lose Tomb Raider. It's their third (about to be 2nd) highest selling property.

The rumor is from 4chan so its a coin flip. But I wouldn't be surprised by if it were true.

4Chan...

So fake.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Robin's the closest thing we've got to the magic-user fighter I wanted.

It's not terribly close to what I wanted in a mage newcomer, but it was a good start.

The sword also keeps them from abusing their tomes too much throughout an entire match, which was a nice touch. How much this relates to any mechanics in Awakening, I'm not yet sure because I still haven't played it lol.

 

[ahemtoday]

I do think it has to be the right character. I wouldn't make Mario or Bowser a stance changer. That's just unnecessary and convoluted for the sake of it. My take is that if a stance change isn't one of the first three things you think of for the character or it isn't something they do in their own game, then it probably shouldn't be a part of what they do in Smash.

The archetype definitely isn't for everyone. It makes characters more technical and not everyone wants that. That's totally fine.

How do you feel about Min Min? She's sort of a stance change-lite character with her different arms.

Min Min is a... weird case. For starters, all the different ARMS she can use act basically the same, having only minorly different properties. There's also the fact that she's arguably a little less complex than other fighters without that mechanic, considering how many of her moves are basic ARMS punches.

I guess I'd be okay with another character that has something like Min Min's down-B, but I've seen movesets where you switch between completely different weapons and that ain't working.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I do think it has to be the right character. I wouldn't make Mario or Bowser a stance changer. That's just unnecessary and convoluted for the sake of it. My take is that if a stance change isn't one of the first three things you think of for the character or it isn't something they do in their own game, then it probably shouldn't be a part of what they do in Smash.

The archetype definitely isn't for everyone. It makes characters more technical and not everyone wants that. That's totally fine.

Interestingly, you could have Mario as a stance character make sense because of how his powerup system works, but due to his status as a beginner character, I wouldn't give it to him. This kind of dominoes to the rest of the characters, with it not making too much sense on Luigi because he has to parallel Mario, and has his own stuff to gain uniqueness, Peach doesn't really interact with the system much because she's not usually playable, and everyone else either isn't playable in games with this system, or are representing games that don't have it.

It is a pretty important mechanic within the main series though, which is why I think it should be given to Captain Toad. Previous playable Toads have used it before, Captain Toad is all about searching for powerful items like them, and Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker does actually use the mechanic, though it mostly equates to the Super Mushroom, and a Star equivalent. It could also contextualize his heavy backpack with stuff that he actually carries in it.