Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Mushroomguy12]

Happy Birthdays to both Banjo Tooie and Donkey Kong Country 2!

 

[KingofPhantoms]

and the already got hammers covered lol.

Too bad the Ike Climbers will never be canon.

 

[pupNapoleon]

and the already got hammers covered lol.

Too bad the Ike Climbers will never be canon.

I don't actually think a weapon needs to be represented- it's just a visual that stands in place for the character's mechanics.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Controller: (A character that can control the other players. Either freezing them, or perhaps even activating their moves at poor moments. Or.... tripping, but not random!). Pretty hard as well... a magic user or hacker. Lip would make... some sense for this. Arle could as well.

Would Ivy count? Her thing is moving you where she wants you for frame traps and such.

Mimic: (Different examples of this would be Tsang Tsung, or Mokujin). Honestly, this one is hard. I have a document of 100+ Smash characters I'd be happy to see on a scale of 1-5, and none of these characters in a videogame pantheon fit a Mimic. Maybe... Captain Rainbow. But that is a stretch. Maybe CJ from GTA, but at best he would only steal a move/item, akin to Kirby. I need help on this one.

Ditto would probably be the only acceptable character that truely fits this archetype.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Would Ivy count? Her thing is moving you where she wants you for frame traps and such.

Eh- I just don't think that anyone would be a character except Nightmare. Maybe she fits, but I was framing it from my perspective of what I would actually want to see. I know that won't make sense to everyone else, and that's fine. I encourage them to make their own lists.

Ditto would probably be the only acceptable character that truely fits this archetype.

I was a fan of the idea of Ditto as a character, just because it would be... incredibly easy.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Eh- I just don't think that anyone would be a character except Nightmare. Maybe she fits, but I was framing it from my perspective of what I would actually want to see. I know that won't make sense to everyone else, and that's fine. I encourage them to make their own lists.

Ah OK. I don't think Ivy would be added until the second or third SoulCaliber character either, but I figured I'd throw her out there.

Also, I just realized the shenanigans of CJ stealing moves from cartooney characters and gaining access to things like Chomp and Inhale. lol

Perhaps a Grand Theft Auto character could steal an "item" from a character that gives him a special move or something. Like, he could steal the Wii Balance Board from the Wii Fit Trainer and bash people on the head with it, or an Iron Sword from a Fire Emblem character that acts a lot like the Beam Sword.

 

[ahemtoday]

The real question with stealing an item is what happens to the person who got stolen from. Do they just lose access to that move completely?

 

[pupNapoleon]

Ah OK. I don't think Ivy would be added until the second or third SoulCaliber character either, but I figured I'd throw her out there.

Also, I just realized the shenanigans of CJ stealing moves from cartooney characters and gaining access to things like Chomp and Inhale. lol

Perhaps a Grand Theft Auto character could steal an "item" from a character that gives him a special move or something. Like, he could steal the Wii Balance Board from the Wii Fit Trainer and bash people on the head with it, or an Iron Sword from a Fire Emblem character that acts a lot like the Beam Sword.

The way that I semi envision CJ is that he would actually... steal from the other players.
Standard Special: Thief. CJ will launch at the opponent. If his attack lands, it takes away one of the opponents specials and implements it into CJ’s moves. It would focus on moves that use items- and can be anything from Isabelle’s fishing rod to Wario’s bike. (Mario’s Cape, Peach’s Turnips, Samus’s bombs, etc). For some, this will require a bit of imagination.

I acknowledge this is only half baked, but GTA is one of few franchises I can see getting anywhere near the amount of work that Steve got, if he is decided upon. It would require intricate knowledge of each character to know exactly what the effect would be.

EDIT: The more necessary the item is to the players toolkit, the less time frame the move would be stolen.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The real question with stealing an item is what happens to the person who got stolen from. Do they just lose access to that move completely?

I'd have it steal something that the character would realistically have on their person, but don't actually use within their moveset, or have a lot of. For example, Captain Falcon has a gun on him, but never uses it, so the Grand Theft Auto character would steal that. Conversely, Peach has unlimited turnups, so the Grand Theft Auto character would get a turnip from her.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Rekka: Chorus Kids (I stand by the idea that an internal rhythm would work for the character. Tempo wouldn't affect the character, other than when the attack releases, but inherent rhythmic ability would).

First off, rekka is not really an archetype more than it is a different way of inputting specials, requiring additional inputs after the initial special. Otherwise, literally every SoulCalibur and Tekken character in existence would be rekka characters, but it's clear they have their own archetype. People can refer to characters as "rekka characters" due to the existence of rekka moves, but that doesn't mean it's the archetype.

Second,

Mimic: (Different examples of this would be Tsang Tsung, or Mokujin). Honestly, this one is hard. I have a document of 100+ Smash characters I'd be happy to see on a scale of 1-5, and none of these characters in a videogame pantheon fit a Mimic. Maybe... Captain Rainbow. But that is a stretch. Maybe CJ from GTA, but at best he would only steal a move/item, akin to Kirby. I need help on this one.

Metal Sonic

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'd have it steal something that the character would realistically have on their person, but don't actually use within their moveset, or have a lot of. For example, Captain Falcon has a gun on him, but never uses it, so the Grand Theft Auto character would steal that. Conversely, Peach has unlimited turnups, so the Grand Theft Auto character would get a turnip from her.

the whistle (useless for CJ, but affective for Alph/Olimar cripple)
two of the guns (just makes her less combo heavy)
the spiked ball
the needles
the throwing item
Yoyo
boomerang
the Pokeball/his ability to change Pokemon
volleyball
bat
Roller
wrestling ropes
gun
sword
hookshot
potion
axe
a slot of his random meter
banana
fludd
vaccuum
frisbee
turnip
parasol

Ultimately, this would also add more variety to the echoes.

Reminder, that I stated that for balancing purposes, each character's stolen item would last a different duration, based on how necessary it was for their tool kit. So, Peach would lose the parasol for a short time, but Daisy would lose the turnip for longer.

 

[DarthEnderX]

What type of fighting style is most missing from Smash?

Any fighting style still missing from Smash at this point would be some gimmicky bull**** and doesn't need to show up.

 

[ahemtoday]

Metal Sonic

Eh... as a huge Sonic fan, copying moves is not at all the first thing I think of when it comes to Metal Sonic. I think he did that in a couple games, but if you asked me what I'd expect out of a Metal Sonic moveset, I'd come out with V. Heat Maximum Overdrive (yes, that's really what the dash attack he does in CD is called) or that chest laser from Knuckles' Chaotix, or even the Black Shield from SA2B. Copying moves is way down the list for me in terms of stuff Metal Sonic has.

 

[pupNapoleon]

First off, rekka is not really an archetype more than it is a different way of inputting specials, requiring additional inputs after the initial special. Otherwise, literally every SoulCalibur and Tekken character in existence would be rekka characters, but it's clear they have their own archetype. People can refer to characters as "rekka characters" due to the existence of rekka moves, but that doesn't mean it's the archetype.

Second,

Eh, then rhythmic. However you'd like to interpret it.
And... I'm doing my best to not include characters who just have a single move that fit the typing.

Metal Sonic

I'll pass. I'm not a fan of Metal Sonic making it in.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

And... I'm doing my best to not include characters who just have a single move that fit the typing.

Which is usually how characters with rekka moves are portrayed.

It's not often that a character's entire toolkit has rekka elements. SoulCalibur and Tekken are really the two examples that come to mind.

I guess recent Mortal Kombat games also implimented preset combos for all characters, so I guess every MK character has rekka stuff too, but again, it's never an entire moveset.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Eh, then rhythmic. However you'd like to interpret it.

holds up pictures of Don-chan for the world to see

 

[ahemtoday]

I'll pass. I'm not a fan of Metal Sonic making it in.

Also, yeah, there's the fact that Metal Sonic would be a bit of a weird pick. There's a lot of potential second characters for the Sonic series - my personal favorite being Eggman, but you could also do Shadow, or Tails, or even Knuckles. Metal Sonic isn't... that major of a player in the Sonic series, though, so as much as I would like him, he's not really my first pick,

 

[SKX31]

The real question with stealing an item is what happens to the person who got stolen from. Do they just lose access to that move completely?

We do kinda have an example of that already. / 's Pocket:

Pocketed objects are considered to be in play even if they are not visible, though any timers such as a Bob-omb's fuse are frozen and reset upon retrieval. As a result, special moves that can only create limited numbers of objects can be rendered ineffective if they get pocketed, such as R.O.B.'s Gyro, Wii Fit Trainer's soccer ball, Wario's bike, King K. Rool's crown, Bowser Jr.'s Mechakoopas, and Banjo & Kazooie's grenade egg. Lloid Rocket, Minecart and TNT are exceptions to this rule; pocketing them will immediately allow the character who deployed it to use the special move again. Pocket is also very effective at gimping Ness or Lucas, as the move can be used to intercept and take his PK Thunder projectile while he is trying to get back onto the stage.

So yeah, Villager / Isabelle can deny Rool the Crownerang or for quite a while.

 

[SharkLord]

One thing I'm kinda interested in is a character who doesn't act like their archetype. An example of this would be King K. Rool, who Sakurai described as a heavyweight who doesn't act like one, with two projectiles, a defensive playstyle, and great recovery. Some ideas for this would be:

• A lightweight grappler. Grapplers are traditionally bulky heavyweights like Zangeif, and in Smash the only real examples are Donkey Kong and Incineroar. The one I think of first is Klonoa, who's Wind Ring could translate to a unique, throw-heavy moveset that could make him not just a lightweight grappler, but an aerial grappler as well.
• A small character with long reach. All the little guys have range that doesn't get any higher than "okay", even Meta Knight and the small Links, who actually have a sword. The obvious pick here would be Bandana Waddle Dee, being the spear guy an all.
• An aerial heavyweight. Most of the time, heavyweights are fairly grounded, so let's have one with aerial capacity, like Dr. Eggman. I mean, we already have King Dedede, but you know what they say, the more the merrier

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

An aerial heavyweight.

While not a super heavy, Wario kinda fits that because his aerials are just really damn good.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

November 21st in Japan seems to be a very popular day for major Nintendo Birthdays it seems.

Happy Birthday to Melee, Pokemon Gold and Silver, and Ocarina of Time!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Which is usually how characters with rekka moves are portrayed.

It's not often that a character's entire toolkit has rekka elements. SoulCalibur and Tekken are really the two examples that come to mind.

I guess recent Mortal Kombat games also implimented preset combos for all characters, so I guess every MK character has rekka stuff too, but again, it's never an entire moveset.

While not technically everything in their moveset, Dragon Ball Fighterz characters technically have more rekka moves than not since most of their moveset consists of auto combos.

Also, yeah, there's the fact that Metal Sonic would be a bit of a weird pick. There's a lot of potential second characters for the Sonic series - my personal favorite being Eggman, but you could also do Shadow, or Tails, or even Knuckles. Metal Sonic isn't... that major of a player in the Sonic series, though, so as much as I would like him, he's not really my first pick,

Is he not? He seems to appear constantly.

But yeah, with him being lower on the totem pole than Knuckles, Tails, and Shadow, and all three of their skillsets being variations of Sonic's (not saying they can't be unique, there would be some homages to Sonic's moveset by necessity), I don't think Metal Sonic would really be necessary here.

One thing I'm kinda interested in is a character who doesn't act like their archetype. An example of this would be King K. Rool, who Sakurai described as a heavyweight who doesn't act like one, with two projectiles, a defensive playstyle, and great recovery. Some ideas for this would be:

• A lightweight grappler. Grapplers are traditionally bulky heavyweights like Zangeif, and in Smash the only real examples are Donkey Kong and Incineroar. The one I think of first is Klonoa, who's Wind Ring could translate to a unique, throw-heavy moveset that could make him not just a lightweight grappler, but an aerial grappler as well.
• A small character with long reach. All the little guys have range that doesn't get any higher than "okay", even Meta Knight and the small Links, who actually have a sword. The obvious pick here would be Bandana Waddle Dee, being the spear guy an all.
• An aerial heavyweight. Most of the time, heavyweights are fairly grounded, so let's have one with aerial capacity, like Dr. Eggman. I mean, we already have King Dedede, but you know what they say, the more the merrier

I'd be down as long as we don't end up with more characters like King Dedede.

While not a super heavy, Wario kinda fits that because his aerials are just really damn good.

I think Bowser Jr.'s like this too, but less good.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

This is Speculation right here, and it's my Ultimate Prediction. It might seem Crazy, but if it actually pays off, Just know someone out there predicted the Impossible

Smash Bros and Bayonetta 3 will Collaborate with each other in the Form of Shadow the Hedgehog coming to Both Games.

Bayonetta involves Time Travel heavily, so Shadow fits Very Well since Chaos Control is centered around it, (Maybe not Time Travel specfically unless we talking 06, but Time in general yes)

Sega made Shadow Playable in the 2017 game of Sonic Forces. Sega has been pushing Shadow as a Character Much more than the Early 2010's. Bayonetta was announced in 2017, and Platinum said they revealed the game too early, and It's very likely Development either Just Started or didn't even start yet, or the game was just Greenlit

The Same guy who made the Yakuza series (and also creative officer at Sega) said New Gameplay styles for Sonic were coming. Platinum tweeted a Picture with Sonic Shirt. Sonic Twitter account and Mike Pollock (eggman) tweeted "3" as a hint towards something. Sonic Adventure 3, Bayonetta 3, Sonic Rush 3, All three, two of those, maybe something else, it's something related to 3

Iizuka, Head of Sonic's Team, favorite character is Shadow

What I think will happen is that Bayonetta 3 might actually be coming in 2021, which FP2 is going into. Nintendo might have pushed for Shadow as a Character to perhaps Cross Promote. Shadow is a Requested character and is the 2nd Most Popular character in the Sonic Franchise, so even without Promotion he has Very Good Merits. That's a Win Win, as Shadow appeal to Casual Audience, Hardcore Smash Audience, Sonic Audience, and Nintendo, Platinum, and Sega's Interests. Also potentially Sakurai since he might like the more Edgier Characters (even though there's Much more to Shadow than Edginess)

Shadow in Bayontta 3 will push more units, or at least get more people interested in the game. Shadow in Smash would give Nintendo more money from DLC Purchases, and more attention towards Bayonetta 3. Sega will get Shadow in a game that's 95% likely to be good, and could be the steeping Stone towards Shadow Sequel, and then a Whole Franchise based around Shadow. I, and many will get their most Wanted Character in Smash, and Alsp My Prophecy of Shadow coming to Smash Ultimate will Come true

Kinda late, but:

"Tekken 7 is 3"

Take that as you will.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

While not technically everything in their moveset, Dragon Ball Fighterz characters technically have more rekka moves than not since most of their moveset consists of auto combos.

And every single auto-combo can be performed in the traditional sense, so this is just an accessibility feature rather than a thing exclusive to said auto-combos.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

One more Anniversary post for Tomb Raider 3.

In 1998, you took Lara Croft on a quest to recover four pieces of an ancient meteorite scattered across the world that held incredible power.... @TombRaider III: Adventures of Lara Croft remains a legend forever today. Thank you Lara 💖 pic.twitter.com/ZBzxyyBfc1

— Square Enix (@SquareEnix) November 20, 2020

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

And every single auto-combo can be performed in the traditional sense, so this is just an accessibility feature rather than a thing exclusive to said auto-combos.

Can they? I'm pretty sure at least some of them have auto-combo exclusive attacks, like Berrus's cross-up dash thing.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

"Googles"

Oh, that's what a rekka character/move is.

I got no input on adding more. But it does remind me that I should probably pick up Lucina again.

I played her literally only one time, in Classic Mode, and somehow I got my high score of the mode with her and I haven't beaten the record since.

...This also reminds me that I should just play Ultimate again period.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Doesn’t Captain Falcon’s neutral jab count as a Rekka? Sheik’s too?

 

[Aerospherology]

Doesn’t Captain Falcon’s neutral jab count as a Rekka? Sheik’s too?

Then don't most jabs count as rekka?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Can they? I'm pretty sure at least some of them have auto-combo exclusive attacks, like Berrus's cross-up dash thing.

That's one of his normals. I don't remember which because it's been a while since I touched FighterZ, but I do remember that no character as a move exclusive to auto-combos.

Combo challenges that feature those auto-combos even tell you which specific move is used so you can try it the traditional way, and it counts as a success.

Doesn’t Captain Falcon’s neutral jab count as a Rekka? Sheik’s too?

That's closer to a target combo (an SF term for a preset combo that consists of unique attacks you can't do otherwise, other fighting games have different terms for them iirc) since it requires a chain of normal attacks rather than specials.

Alternatively, they can also be compared to Chun-Li's Hyakuretsukuayu

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Doesn’t Captain Falcon’s neutral jab count as a Rekka? Sheik’s too?

I figured only special moves counted in this case.

One more Anniversary post for Tomb Raider 3.

In 1998, you took Lara Croft on a quest to recover four pieces of an ancient meteorite scattered across the world that held incredible power.... @TombRaider III: Adventures of Lara Croft remains a legend forever today. Thank you Lara 💖 pic.twitter.com/ZBzxyyBfc1

— Square Enix (@SquareEnix) November 20, 2020

While I'm barely familiar with the series, I'll be happy for her fans if she happens to be apart of FP2.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I figured only special moves counted in this case.

KoP got it.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Doesn’t Captain Falcon’s neutral jab count as a Rekka? Sheik’s too?

Eh, I don't really think so. Rekkas generally have a flowchart of what can be done following the first move. A lot of the time that's done either by directional inputs or through the choice of light/medium/heavy. I'm not sure one additional input at the end counts.

That's one of his normals. I don't remember which because it's been a while since I touched FighterZ, but I do remember that no character as a move exclusive to auto-combos.

There are characters who have unique moves on light auto-combo. I don't think all of them do, but it's common enough. Off the top of my head I know Trunks, Hit, Super Broly, Jiren, Cooler, and base form Goku and Vegeta all have them.

 

[pupNapoleon]

November 21st in Japan seems to be a very popular day for major Nintendo Birthdays it seems.

It's popular, in large part, because it's a day that has been historically popular for sales. Meaning- it's a bit before black friday, which- while not a worldwide phenomenon- has historically been a near cut-off-date for releases.

If that's poorly phrased, I'll just say, 'Black Friday.' Games have often released now.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

There are characters who have unique moves on light auto-combo. I don't think all of them do, but it's common enough. Off the top of my head I know Trunks, Hit, Super Broly, Jiren, Cooler, and base form Goku and Vegeta all have them.

Combo challenges with auto-combos always tell you which move you do on the input section on the left though, and most of those "auto-combo exclusives" can be done by just pressing the normal again, just like jabs in Smash games.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Combo challenges with auto-combos always tell you which move you do on the input section on the left though, and most of those "auto-combo exclusives" can be done by just pressing the normal again, just like jabs in Smash games.

I'm not saying they are rekkas. I'm just saying unique moves tied to auto-combos exist. Because they do. Trunks has a dash-through move that can only be done on the third hit of light auto-combo.

The only rekkas in DBFZ are tied to Android 17.

 

[SharkLord]

Basically:
Rekka are specials moves that can lead into different attacks with different inputs. Normal moves performed by mashing the button like a jab or an autocombo don't count. A good example of a rekka move would be Kyo of King of Fighters fame. You can see them here, around the 1:20 mark.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Combo challenges with auto-combos always tell you which move you do on the input section on the left though, and most of those "auto-combo exclusives" can be done by just pressing the normal again, just like jabs in Smash games.

I think we might be calling different things auto-combos. In DBFZ, hitting one button over and over again (like Smash's jab strings) is considered an auto-combo. It's not what the game's easy input mode is called. The easy input mode is called "extreme type" for some reason.

 

[mariofan48]

Speaking of Smash speculation, is anyone here familiar with the name 'terry syvertson'?

 

[ahemtoday]

Is he not? He seems to appear constantly.

But yeah, with him being lower on the totem pole than Knuckles, Tails, and Shadow, and all three of their skillsets being variations of Sonic's (not saying they can't be unique, there would be some homages to Sonic's moveset by necessity), I don't think Metal Sonic would really be necessary here.

I mean, he is pretty common to see, but there are a lot of characters that show up more often. I'd estimate that he shows up about as often as, say, Rouge does. He isn't far behind the four I mentioned (although I think Amy might be the fifth most recurring character), but being sixth in line when there's no guarantee there'll even be one addition Sonic character isn't great odds.