Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[KingofPhantoms]

What's nuts to me about Kamek is how close he came to greatness. For a hot second he could have been a playable character in Mario Kart 64 as one of the villains, which would have likely made him more of a well-known antagonist and way more likely to get into Smash as a villain representative of the Yoshi series.

Totally. There's a lot of cut content in gaming history that I would've liked to see make the final cut, and that's one of them. Wild to think how different things could've been for Kamek I'd he were just playable in MK64.

Kamek's underappreciated, imo. I'd like to see him get a significantly bigger role in the Mario series outside of the Yoshi games someday. Getting him in Smash would be great, too, as unlikely as it may be.

 

[Lionfranky]

No More Heroes and Ace Attorney games don't get a million sales either. And for some reasons, people still think they are likely. But I agree with you, I think they are both unlikely for that reason, and for other reasons (like moveset).

NMH is a Nintendo exclusive, so it's easier to get hands on. Phoenix Wright started on Nintendo platform. Neptunia doesn't have that advantage. It doesn't have merit of Persona 5. Neptunia VII is considered best in the franchise, but even that is generally rated decent at best. Not to mention Switch port of Neptunia titles have been piss poor.

 

[zriL]

And even if a game hasn't sold a million, it doesn't mean it can't have millions of fans. Just look up Ace Attorney on YouTube and you'll see videos with millions of views.

I don't disagree with your point. But talking about video views while saying sales don't mean much is a bit dubious. There is no way youtube views mean more than sales, especially in Nintendo's eyes. If so, I think Nyan Cat or Rick Astley should be in Smash. It's easy to confirm that by looking at the roster, the only low selling characters are obscure Nintendo franchises, which deserve to be in the game regardless.
I'm saying that as a Reimu fan, who has virtually no sales no speak of (for understandable reasons) and Touhou has probably more Youtube views than every other candidates combined, and I am not even talking about Japanese or Chinese video services.

Ace Attorney had sold over 7 million copies as of last year, with 6 mainline games, one spinoff, and three Japan exclusive spinoffs, so I'd say that at least one of the games probably broke a million when counting the multiple re-releases.

Not that it really matters to the point that's being argued. Personally though, I think it's clear that while No More Heroes is niche, Neptunia is far nicher, or at least with a general gaming audience - I'm sure the franchise is very popular in anime and otaku circles. And whatever the games might sell, they turn a profit. If anything, I think it's their limited impact/acknowledgement on the gaming front that would impede Smash inclusion more than raw sales numbers.

Can you share your sources ? I did try to check this before talking and I only found a 7M sales for the whole franchises history with much more than 6 games (about 20 on Nintendo systems)

I agree than Neptune is even more niche and definitely won't happen. But people seem to put the bar quite low when they look at the likeliness of characters. There hasn't been yet a character as niche as Travis or Phoenix in the game. Joker and Terry were already quite surprising and hard to justify compared to rest of the roster, but they at least had much more sales to show.
Same for Banjo, people seem to think the fandom pulled him into smash but Banjo was a big seller on N64, he didn't need more than that, Microsoft was only an obstacle and they were willing to let Banjo be in Smash in the end. But if Banjo had been a Nintendo property, he would have been in the game since Melee or Brawl.

 

[zriL]

NMH is a Nintendo exclusive, so it's easier to get hands on. Phoenix Wright started on Nintendo platform. Neptunia doesn't have that advantage. It doesn't have merit of Persona 5. Neptunia VII is considered best in the franchise, but even that is generally rated decent at best. Not to mention Switch port of Neptunia titles have been piss poor.

NMH is not Nintendo exclusive, not for the most recent games at least. Same for Phoenix Wright, the recent trilogy package is multi-platform.

 

[cosmicB]

Funny you mention Reimu. I actually think Scorpion and Reimu would make good compliments to each other in this regard. Both are Very Centered in their respective regions. It's kind of like Hero and Banjo, except More Extreme in this case

Yeah this is the stated reason why Ayumi was rejected, but I don't think that reasoning can close the book on Scorpion like it did Ayumi. Scorpion and Mortal Kombat in general is much more Iconic and Much more Notable of a character than Ayumi is, both in gaming circles, Casual Circles, even Nintendo Circles. Like i say, it's a character to Character basis. what might kill one character chances might not kill another character chances

I do get though that it might still be hard to justify Scorpion even then. It also doesn't help that Crash is an Option and he actually did really well in Japan back in the day. Still even with that, I do think there are enough Qualities to justfy Scorpion and make him a legit Option for this fighter Pass. Scorpion will sell the pass to the Western Audience (and I believe Mortal Kombat is big in Latin America as well), a character like Reimu can sell the Pass to the Asian Audience. Both can sell on their own too.

We're still talking about a game whose most recent entry was explicitly banned in the region. People have to go out of their way to play it not because the developer relies on the fans to do the translations like with Touhou, but because localizing it would literally be illegal and can't even be bought digitally in the region.

You think Nintendo wants such a legally controversial pick in one of their key regions? There's no other equivalent on the roster, and to my knowledge none in the game in general from the most insignificant content (anyone can feel free to correct me here if I'm wrong).

It's obviously not impossible because nothing is impossible at this point, but I would be genuinely shocked to see it happen unless the laws and policy of CERO literally changed overnight, which is irrelevant anyway because the characters have already been decided. I could see a region-locked Mii costume happening though.

 

[7NATOR]

We're still talking about a game whose most recent entry was explicitly banned in the region. People have to go out of their way to play it not because the developer relies on the fans to do the translations like with Touhou, but because localizing it would literally be illegal and can't even be bought digitally in the region.

You think Nintendo wants such a legally controversial pick in one of their key regions? There's no other equivalent on the roster, and to my knowledge none in the game in general from the most insignificant content (anyone can feel free to correct me here if I'm wrong).

It's obviously not impossible because nothing is impossible at this point, but I would be genuinely shocked to see it happen unless the laws and policy of CERO literally changed overnight, which is irrelevant anyway because the characters have already been decided. I could see a region-locked Mii costume happening though.

Mortal Kombat could be sold in Japan though. There's no Specfic ban for the Franchise or anything

the Problem is that Nettherrealm themselves Don't want to Censor the game and/or Translate the game. If they censor Mortal Kombat the games could be sold in Japan, but because they don't they can't. There's no need for a Reigon Locked Mii Costume

If Mortal Kombat gets into Smash, it would be in a Censored form. There still could be Fatalities and such, it's just that there wouldn't be any Explict form of Gore like Dismemberment or anything. The content in Mortal Kombat is Illegal, Mortal Kombat the Franchise and it's characters are not

 

[zriL]

If Mortal Kombat gets into Smash, it would be in a Censored form. There still could be Fatalities and such, it's just that there wouldn't be any Explict form of Gore like Dismemberment or anything. The content in Mortal Kombat is Illegal, Mortal Kombat the Franchise and it's characters are not

And that's why Scorpion and Doomguy won't be ever in Smash in my opinion. For some characters like Bayonetta, it's fine to censor them a bit because the sexyness of it isn't what defines Bayonetta as a franchise, it's more about being over the top, the sexyness is only a part of it. It's same for DMC by the way.

Now for Doom and Mortal Kombat, the violence is what defines them, they are the most violent games of their respective genre, they are nothing but an empty shell if your remove violence from them. Sakurai always makes a point of being faithful to the identity of a franchise, so he wouldn't ever accept to represent a franchise so wrongly.

 

[7NATOR]

And that's why Scorpion and Doomguy won't be ever in Smash in my opinion. For some characters like Bayonetta, it's fine to censor them a bit because the sexyness of it isn't what defines Bayonetta as a franchise, it's more about being over the top, the sexyness is only a part of it. It's same for DMC by the way.

Now for Doom and Mortal Kombat, the violence is what defines them, they are the most violent games of their respective genre, they are nothing but an empty shell if your remove violence from them. Sakurai always makes a point of being faithful to the identity of a franchise, so he wouldn't ever accept to represent a franchise so wrongly.

Yeah I thought about that as well. Actually I was in your shoes with that reasoning too, and honestly it is kinda hard to refute that

I guess I could say that there is still ways to Make Scorpion violent, without having to raise the Age Rating. Ridley is probably a Good Starting Point for that, and they can crank it up to an higher level without needing to introduce Blood. Make Sound effects Crunchy, make his Attack animations look brutal, and Fatalities can still be in the game. Stuff like Toasty could work and such.

Plus there has been more to Mortal Kombat besides the Brutality. It's also very Campy and can be very Cheesy as well. you could use that aspect to it's effect

We've Seen the Injustice games use Mortal Kombat characters and not have them Behead characters all the time. Ed Boon has been a Supporter of Mortal Kombat in Smash and I would think he would know the Violence would need to be toned down for Smash. I think it could perhaps work, it's not like with Sora Hypothetically getting in Without Disney Content. the Violence would still be there, It's just not as heightened up as the Series is. in the end though it is what Sakurai thinks about that

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I don't think the problem with Mortal Kombat and Doom is the violence, per se. Snake snaps people's necks for his grab and that got through. The real problem is the GORE. Question is would either series work without that. I think Doom would be able to work by featuring Doom Guy having brutal animations (example, Down throw being a painful chest stomp) but Mortal Kombar loses a lot without the gore. It can be done as seen in Injustice but I have my doubts.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Me personally, the only game characters that I think wouldn't be allowed as characters are characters whose games are nothing but violence and there's nothing else there (Like a video game version of Torture Porn), or they get the Adults Only rating in the US (Which is a legit ban unlike Mortal Kombat in Japan).

So we're not getting a Postal rep, Not Important or the main protagonist from any games in the Manhunt franchise.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I guess we're doing this now. Wizard costume ideas.

Aside from current costumes of Ashley, Lip, Veronica and Viridi getting converted over, my biggest wants are FF1 Black Mage and White Mage.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'm not too certain we'd get franchises like Doom or Mortal Kombat in Smash. However I do think Mortal Kombat has a slight edge because it's also a very iconic fighting game franchise. Apparently, that's a big thing if we look at previous DLC additions as Ryu in Smash 4, and Terry in Ultimate, as well as the consideration of Heiachi.

Outside of Tekken, I have a hard time thinking of a fighting game franchise big and iconic enough to be in Smash. But honestly , I never knew of Terry or his home franchises either before his announcement. If BlazBlue (typo?) is as popular as everyone is saying, it could also get a fighter.

But to me, a guy that's only slightly knowledgeable about Nintendo and never owning another brand of console, Tekken, Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat are definitely the biggest names in fighting game franchises. It helps I also played them.

I'm also leaning towards Travis Touchdown getting into Smash. He has a lot of advantages, he seems kind of like in a similar position to Bayonetta in a way.

 

[SpectreJordan]

Now for Doom and Mortal Kombat, the violence is what defines them, they are the most violent games of their respective genre, they are nothing but an empty shell if your remove violence from them. Sakurai always makes a point of being faithful to the identity of a franchise, so he wouldn't ever accept to represent a franchise so wrongly.

Hey look! Someone who hasn’t played Mortal Kombat or Doom!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Now for Doom and Mortal Kombat, the violence is what defines them, they are the most violent games of their respective genre, they are nothing but an empty shell if your remove violence from them.

Violence is a key part of both franchises but saying they have nothing else of value is a terrible take.

I mean Doom revolutionized the FPS genre. You think it did that by only being violent?

 

[snowgolem]

As someone that has played as Miis in For and Ultimate, DON'T do that.
The characters were so much worse in For because of that, so many of their multi-hit attacks didn't function as a result of it and their attack power was obnoxiously lower than average for most of their normals. I'm super glad that mechanic was removed, it was a nightmare to balance and made it incredibly difficult to use the characters in the competitive scene.

Okay, but maybe just let me shrink the head?? I just want Makoto and Saki to look normal

I don't think the problem with Mortal Kombat and Doom is the violence, per se. Snake snaps people's necks for his grab and that got through. The real problem is the GORE. Question is would either series work without that. I think Doom would be able to work by featuring Doom Guy having brutal animations (example, Down throw being a painful chest stomp) but Mortal Kombar loses a lot without the gore. It can be done as seen in Injustice but I have my doubts.

These characters are known for their gore. Removing it is like watering down both them and them as a character. Doomguy could work without it, because he’s a bit more than just a gore man, but Scorpion would absolutely not. At that point it’s no longer Scorpion.

 

[Lionfranky]

Being a million seller isn't a necessity for fame. Castlevania for instance has had only a few million sellers across its history, but it gained a legacy because of how prominent it was in gaming during its heyday and influence afterwards. Similarly, a success of a game is dependent on the expectations of the company. A Pokemon mainline game selling a million would be a failure, but a Metroid game selling that much would be a success.

It's all relative to what the company wants out of the franchise and what the franchise does with its presence. You can be successful or influential without being a huge seller, and Smash is built on franchises big and small that have done so.

It still has million seller title under the belt. All of third party broke at least million sales. Nintendo isn't going to pick up third party franchises that has neither fame or legacy like Neptunia.

NMH is not Nintendo exclusive, not for the most recent games at least. Same for Phoenix Wright, the recent trilogy package is multi-platform.

Okay, I should've clarified that where they started: Nintendo. Neptunia started on Playstation. It doesn't have any advantage or merit of Persona 5 as sleeper/shock pick. Compile Heart would rather have to PAY Nintendo to put her in instead of getting licensing fee.

 

[zriL]

Hey look! Someone who hasn’t played Mortal Kombat or Doom!

Violence is a key part of both franchises but saying they have nothing else of value is a terrible take.

Looks like I didn't express myself very well. I never wanted to say they have no qualities other than violence. Violence isn't even something you can consider as a quality.
I was never talking about the quality of this games anyways, they were both revolutionary in their genre just from a technical standpoint. I was talking about soul. Mortal Kombat and Doom don't feel like themselves if you remove the violence, and I think any true fan of them wouldn't want to see them in Smash without the violence. If you would want to see them anyways, you're not a true fan in my eyes.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Me personally, the only game characters that I think wouldn't be allowed as characters are characters whose games are nothing but violence and there's nothing else there (Like a video game version of Torture Porn), or they get the Adults Only rating in the US (Which is a legit ban unlike Mortal Kombat in Japan).

So we're not getting a Postal rep, Not Important or the main protagonist from any games in the Manhunt franchise.

R.I.P. Postal Dude and his dreams of ever peeing on the Smash cast.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

I don't think the problem with Mortal Kombat and Doom is the violence, per se. Snake snaps people's necks for his grab and that got through. The real problem is the GORE. Question is would either series work without that. I think Doom would be able to work by featuring Doom Guy having brutal animations (example, Down throw being a painful chest stomp) but Mortal Kombar loses a lot without the gore. It can be done as seen in Injustice but I have my doubts.

For Doom, if you want an example of how the Slayer would look and act in Smash at least animation-wise, look at Ridley. That character has animations and a moveset that sell how ruthless and vicious he fights without any blood or gore. I imagine Doom Slayer could be done similarly, with his moves and animations showing off how brutal he can be despite the lack of dismemberment and gore.

As for Mortal Kombat, you already said it. The Injustice games are good examples of how Mortal Kombat characters would look without blood and gore. Granted, Injustice was rated T and still very violent, so there's still the question of "Would Scorpion or Sub-Zero work in a E-10+ game?", to which I think at least Sub-Zero could work, since his ice powers could translate over to Smash without losing too much of what makes him Sub-Zero.

 

[osby]

Looks like I didn't express myself very well. I never wanted to say they have no qualities other than violence. Violence isn't even something you can consider as a quality.
I was never talking about the quality of this games anyways, they were both revolutionary in their genre just from a technical standpoint. I was talking about soul. Mortal Kombat and Doom don't feel like themselves if you remove the violence, and I think any true fan of them wouldn't want to see them in Smash without the violence. If you disagree with that, you're not a true fan in my eyes.

It's real gatekeeping hours in Smashboards.

 

[SKX31]

Looks like I didn't express myself very well. I never wanted to say they have no qualities other than violence. Violence isn't even something you can consider as a quality.
I was never talking about the quality of this games anyways, they were both revolutionary in their genre just from a technical standpoint. I was talking about soul. Mortal Kombat and Doom don't feel like themselves if you remove the violence, and I think any true fan of them wouldn't want to see them in Smash without the violence. If you disagree with that, you're not a true fan in my eyes.

Beyond MK characters already having been in Injustice without issues:

One can certainly sell the impact of violence without blood / gore. It's a very common fighting game trope overall, and that's why sound is prioritzed amongst fighting game developers. Smash also follows this - if a big move hits, you'll know by the sound of it. Ridley's Skewer is an especially notable example: sure, no blood or guts, but it sounds like the victim's getting annihilated (small edit). Ditto a lot of Ganondorf's moves - sure, they may be generally slow, but if one of them connects the victim will feel like (s)he's just been hit by a truck. That plays into one of Ganondorf's main strengths: fear:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/hns2ny
Both Doom Guy and Mortal Kombat's characters can follow via just sound and / or special zoom ins without needing blood or guts. Especially when, as pointed out above, we have Ridley (who people have argued is the most fitting Nintendo character for MK).

Certain Fatalities / finishers are a problem though. Sub Zero's most iconic Fatality is certainly in this category. Scorpion's can be more easily edited and still sell the punch without having to see the victim's skeleton.

 

[zriL]

Beyond MK characters already having been in Injustice without issues:

"Without issue" is your opinion. I didn't know about Injustice but the fact such a thing exists doesn't mean it was a good thing for the franchise. There has been countless occurences of owners of a franchise disrespecting it in order to make money, that's usually how you kill a franchise. Actually, it happens more often than not.

Now I know they could do things with sounds and stuff, but in the case Doom or MK, I don't think it would be sufficient. Comparing Ridley or Ganondorf to them is a huge stretch, while Ganondorf is supposed to be terrifying, he is from a family friendly game, terrifying things is a common theme in stories for children anyways.
There is a very big gap between implied violence and graphic violence, there is a reason why this is exactly what makes the ratings change. Doom and MK are known specifically for graphic violence, I don't think you can remove that while retaining their identity. You don't want them to just look like a scary villain.

 

[TwiceEXE]

"Without issue" is your opinion. I didn't know about Injustice but the fact such a thing exists doesn't mean it was a good thing for the franchise. There has been countless occurences of owners of a franchise disrespecting it in order to make money, that's usually how you kill a franchise. Actually, it happens more often than not.

Now I know they could do things with sounds and stuff, but in the case Doom or MK, I don't think it would be sufficient. Comparing Ridley or Ganondorf to them is a huge stretch, while Ganondorf is supposed to be terrifying, he is from a family friendly game, terrifying things is a common theme in stories for children anyways.
There is a very big gap between implied violence and graphic violence, there is a reason why this is exactly what makes the ratings change. Doom and MK are known specifically for graphic violence, I don't think you can remove that while retaining their identity. You don't want them to just look like a scary villain.

Bayonetta.

This really doesn't need anything else said.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

"Without issue" is your opinion. I didn't know about Injustice but the fact such a thing exists doesn't mean it was a good thing for the franchise. There has been countless occurences of owners of a franchise disrespecting it in order to make money, that's usually how you kill a franchise. Actually, it happens more often than not.

Now I know they could do things with sounds and stuff, but in the case Doom or MK, I don't think it would be sufficient. Comparing Ridley or Ganondorf to them is a huge stretch, while Ganondorf is supposed to be terrifying, he is from a family friendly game, terrifying things is a common theme in stories for children anyways.
There is a very big gap between implied violence and graphic violence, there is a reason why this is exactly what makes the ratings change. Doom and MK are known specifically for graphic violence, I don't think you can remove that while retaining their identity. You don't want them to just look like a scary villain.

Eh, I wouldn't exactly call Zelda "family-friendly", some of them are fine but I'm pretty sure some games are rated T for Teen, and in Wind Waker Ganondorf gets stabbed through the head, that's not implied violence, just regular.
Ridley on the other hand is pretty graphic, notably in the Metroid manga where he mentions eating human flesh including Samus' parents.

 

[osby]

"Without issue" is your opinion.

So, like how "MK and Doom shouldn't be toned down" is your opinion?

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I agree than Neptune is even more niche and definitely won't happen. But people seem to put the bar quite low when they look at the likeliness of characters. There hasn't been yet a character as niche as Travis or Phoenix in the game. Joker and Terry were already quite surprising and hard to justify compared to rest of the roster, but they at least had much more sales to show.
Same for Banjo, people seem to think the fandom pulled him into smash but Banjo was a big seller on N64, he didn't need more than that, Microsoft was only an obstacle and they were willing to let Banjo be in Smash in the end. But if Banjo had been a Nintendo property, he would have been in the game since Melee or Brawl.

I agree on Travis, but I think that his case is different because he's so close to Nintendo that he's almost a Nintendo character, so I don't think that it matters that much if he's niche or not. But I want to talk about Phoenix because I think you're 100% wrong about him being "the most niche character in the game". Sure, Phoenix games aren't huge seller like other franchises in the game, but he's still the face of his genre. Aside maybe from Doki Doki litterature club, I don't think any Visual novel come close to the popularity of the Ace attorney franchises. The franchises also had an anime, a movie, stage play and a manga. Not a lot of franchises in the game have that much media surrounding it.

But Ace attorney is also very special for another reason: online presence; there's fan art, fan games and memes everywhere. And you might think "meme won't help a character to be in Smash", but I think in the case of Ace attorney it could. I remember at high school people that barely play video games knew the quote "OBJECTION" and the song Cornered. He was also one of the most popular character on Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3. I think Phoenix Wright is way more popular than what sales can show. It's just that he suffers from the fact that Visual novel is very niche, but Wright is super popular for many other reasons.

 

[IsmaR]

This debate happens every so often, so pardon me for wanting skip straight to the part where we acknowledge ripping away the qualities that make M rated characters "themselves" (interesting, lovable, iconic, whatever you want to call it this week) contradicts their inclusion in a game that is otherwise trying to remain family friendly/wholesome for good girls and boys, yet somehow without the vulgarity/over the top violence is just peachy keen (which I assure no one would think to argue if they weren't already in the game). Something something Bayo would never be toned down as it goes against the purpose, Snake would never work without his staple firearms/knife/neck snapping/naked torture scenes, etc.

You can have whatever reservations you have about whether you like said acts of toning down to varying extents (Bayo not saying **** in her reveal trailer is way more of a big deal to me than Doomslayer not literally ripping and tearing Mario to a bloody pulp), but at the end of the day, it's not anyone other than Sakurai/big N making the calls here. If they think Joker's All Out Attack works fine with sparkles instead of blood and don't give us any spirit battles against phallus demon or mention whatever the source game of Mii crossover costumes is, then we accept it as fine and move on with our day.

They're not going to sabotage themselves if they can help it, but that doesn't mean there's absolutely no leeway for trying to make a neat concept work.

 

[SirCamp]

I agree on Travis, but I think that his case is different because he's so close to Nintendo that he's almost a Nintendo character, so I don't think that it matters that much if he's niche or not.

This is somewhat off topic, but the same could be said for Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons (which in fact has a much larger catalogue and a longer history with Nintendo) and yet barely anyone even mentions it apart from me and a few others.

This is not meant to shade No More Heroes or anything. I just find it interesting what people latch onto and what people ignore and why.

 

[Perkilator]

Wow, 3,600 pages already.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

IsmaR always just casually sneaking in to drop the fax

 

[I.D.]

Can you share your sources ? I did try to check this before talking and I only found a 7M sales for the whole franchises history with much more than 6 games (about 20 on Nintendo systems)

I think the logic is that if you combine the sales of ports, remasters, etc of the "same" title you can probably find one that "broke" a million sales somewhere along the line. Of course the logic is a bit suspect since companies obviously don't count sales like this.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Oddly fitting that a claim about Phoenix Wright is itself raising objections.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Aside from current costumes of Ashley, Lip, Veronica and Viridi getting converted over, my biggest wants are FF1 Black Mage and White Mage.

Mumbo Jumbo for sure would be my Mii
Wizard pick

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Sales don’t matter, otherwise we’d have Resident Evil.

YouTube views are irrelevant.

Characters have been shown to have minute changes to lessen the graphic nature of their source games, look at Bayonetta, Snake, or Joker. This point is also irrelevant.

I’ve noticed in so many of these arguments that the points being made nearly never suggest gameplay, which is a big part of selection for a video game dudes are meant to play. Do you play as these characters or just stare at the CSS?

I think it’s much more accurate, with Scorpion for example, to see it this way: Scorpion can obviously work without blood and gore based on the fact that he crossed over with Injustice, which is far less gorey than the other Netherrealm fighting game he comes from. What’s much more likely to prevent his inclusion is the fact that Mortal Kombat has very little presence in Japan, to the point where it isn’t really sold there anymore. The reason it isn’t sold over there is mainly that the game focuses on such extreme violence with a realistic take, that it more or less clashes with the desires of Japanese game players.

Anyway, my point is that many of the arguments suggested have already been shot down in one way or another by Smash itself so I don’t necessarily think they have much ground to stand on.

 

[Deleted member]

Looks like I didn't express myself very well. I never wanted to say they have no qualities other than violence. Violence isn't even something you can consider as a quality.
I was never talking about the quality of this games anyways, they were both revolutionary in their genre just from a technical standpoint. I was talking about soul. Mortal Kombat and Doom don't feel like themselves if you remove the violence, and I think any true fan of them wouldn't want to see them in Smash without the violence. If you would want to see them anyways, you're not a true fan in my eyes.

ah yes, a "TRUE" nintendo fan. What, perchance, do you mean by that?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The more I think about it, the more Spellcaster Mii costumes that do sound really cool:

-Wizzrobe
-Simirror
-Kammy Koopa
-Shanoa

There really is potential there if the moves were designed well enough.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Imagine if Doom's Protagonist had a Side Special called Glory K.O. It'd usually be a normal command grab, but if you grabbed an opponent who has reached 100%, the grab becomes more powerful, and there's a special character specific animation that plays. For Example:
pulls his hat down over him, then throws the hat
steals the Poultergust, and uses the plunger grab to slam him into the ground
tosses the dog, and shoots him with an NES Zapper
dumps the kid out of their Koopa Clown Car, then activates a punching glove to launch them away
grabs him by the tail and repeatedly slams him onto the ground

 

[zeldasmash]

And that's why Scorpion and Doomguy won't be ever in Smash in my opinion. For some characters like Bayonetta, it's fine to censor them a bit because the sexyness of it isn't what defines Bayonetta as a franchise, it's more about being over the top, the sexyness is only a part of it. It's same for DMC by the way.

Now for Doom and Mortal Kombat, the violence is what defines them, they are the most violent games of their respective genre, they are nothing but an empty shell if your remove violence from them. Sakurai always makes a point of being faithful to the identity of a franchise, so he wouldn't ever accept to represent a franchise so wrongly.

When it comes to Doomguy, it's not just violence that defines him. It's aggression and rage, which is simple enough to work with for a fighter. A heavyweight hard hitter that has some grapple like tendencies and has projectiles and a sword. Doomguy doesn't need violence to feel like he's Doomguy in a Smash game. Bayonetta didn't need her brutal finishers in her game in Smash for her to feel like Bayonetta. Heck, Scorpion and Sub-Zero both worked in Injustice 1 & 2 and those were Rated T games. Smash loves paying respects to the characters from their respective worlds, especially third parties, and they can easily find workarounds.

Also, Scorpion or Sub-Zero would be among the easiest rated M characters to fit in Smash due to them being from a fighting game franchise. They can easily allude to some level of Fatality like how Injustice 2. Make it like some Final Smashes where it only focuses on one character and end it with some Fatality or even Brutality or Crushing Blow allusion. It's actually quite easy to make them fit in Smash yet still have them keep the nature of Mortal Kombat without having them go over the top gore.

Also, wouldn't Kratos not work for Smash either considering there was sex mini-games in previous God of Wars and that the franchise itself is known for it's over the top violence gore factor? God of War and DOOM are very similar in terms of design philosophy in what they want the player to do when playing them: having fun with an over the top character and feel like a badass while doing so. It wasn't until recent titles where the story is more mature and humanizing for both Kratos and Doomguy (to an extent on his part).

 

[Opossum]

Imagine if Doom's Protagonist had a Side Special called Glory K.O. It'd usually be a normal command grab, but if you grabbed an opponent who has reached 100%, the grab becomes more powerful, and there's a special character specific animation that plays. For Example:
pulls his hat down over him, then throws the hat
steals the Poultergust, and uses the plunger grab to slam him into the ground
tosses the dog, and shoots him with an NES Zapper
dumps the kid out of their Koopa Clown Car, then activates a punching glove to launch them away
grabs him by the tail and repeatedly slams him onto the ground

While it's be fun, it almost certainly wouldn't happen just from a logistics standpoint. Kirby having a special move unique to each character is already enough of a development hellhole for Sakurai, so having to make 80+ fully unique Glory KO animations would be insane.

 

[Perkilator]

While it's be fun, it almost certainly wouldn't happen just from a logistics standpoint. Kirby having a special move unique to each character is already enough of a development hellhole for Sakurai, so having to make 80+ fully unique Glory KO animations would be insane.

Then maybe just the characters mentioned in the original post?