Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Dalek_Kolt]

Though the trident and halberd have similar top design, they're so clearly different it hurts.

Though it helps they have some different functions. The halberd is more often used like a boomerang/chakram at times, while the trident has a lot more thrusting power. They both are great for slashing actions.

Also, what is that orange circle on his right thumb?

That's just the origin marker for the halberd in Blender, sorry.
I could see some slashing attacks in Smash for both though.

 

[J. Bond]

[.QUOTE="cosmicB, post: 24039952, member: 450441"]A large amount of people complaining about something doesn't mean that complaint has validity. That's a fallacy along the same lines of Tyranny of the Majority. I know people that were complaining about "too many Fire Emblem characters" in Melee. Does that mean their complaints should have been given any room to breathe? Of course not. Like, do you think the tens of thousands of people saying "who's this no name?" in regards to Eleven and the other DQ heroes have validity in that view?

SNK I'll give you, but you're damn right Tales is more iconic than Banjo Kazooie. Banjo's legacy was a minor bump in design philosophy for the 3D platformer collectathon before the genre went into stasis for over a decade outside of Mario and still has just barely broken out of it. Tales on the other hand is a codifier for a bunch of well-regarded aspects of ARPGs that have been utilized elsewhere including in franchises that have since eclipsed it (and even in some fighting games). While not quite to the same extent, the LMBS is to ARPGs what ATB is to command-based RPGs. And on top of all that, it actually survived its entire continuing career without any real lulls unlike its contemporaries like Star Ocean and Mana.

Edit: Just to be clear, this isn't meant to downplay Banjo Kazooie. It's a fantastic game (I'm not as much a fan of Tooie) that probably would have had an incredibly strong legacy had history with Rare been just a little different. Unfortunately, it was a flash in the pan and its characters are considered "classic" more than iconic, which Smash is no stranger to. It's not an opinion on quality and my favorite game of all time (Chrono Trigger) is in a similar state of existence.[/QUOTE]
(I don't really like Banjo-Kazooie(as a platformer game) but) Banjo-Kazooie was a big N64 game and Banjo-Kazooie is not rarely regarded as a "lost Nintendo character/mascot". People generally associate 3D platformers to him after Mario. I agree that he's more "classic" than "iconic".

It is very misleading to make it sound as if Tales influenced even fighting games, that is SFII, not LMBS, LMBS is inspired by SFII. ARPGs are a niche genre and the (present, although not really birthing) influence Tales had over them is about the extent of it.

Complaints about too many anime swordfighters could only ever stem from too many anime swordfighters unless the people complaining are hallucinating characters. Complaints about characters like DQ (which were few) stem from people's own ignorance and crappy taste, nothingfrom else.

 

[Digital Hazard]

If any Kid Icarus character should come next its Medusa. Arguably to Pit as Bowser, King K. Rool, Ridley and Ganondorf are to Mario, Donkey Kong, Samus and Link. That and she could work as a semi-clone for Palutena (Assuming we don't get an Echo Pack).

Plus more the reason to ship her with King K. Rool.

What kind of fanfiction do you read?
ngl I have some curiosity

 

[Michael the Spikester]

What kind of fanfiction do you read?
ngl I have some curiosity

If you think that's weird. I also ship Rosalina with Ridley and Lucas as their son.

I'm not sorry.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's just the origin marker for the halberd in Blender, sorry.
I could see some slashing attacks in Smash for both though.

Makes sense. I consider their designs both great for slashing in general.

That said, maybe you could have two sets of alts, one regular and one toon with the appropriate weapons?

 

[Goombaic]

View attachment 280876

What kind of fanfiction do you read?
ngl I have some curiosity

If he's talking about Medusa before Uprising, I guess it's not the worst ship imaginable.

Still weird, though.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If he's talking about Medusa before Uprising, I guess it's not the worst ship imaginable.

Still weird, though.

Its Uprising.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

For some reason I assumed Medusa and Ganondorf would be shipped first, given they're gods of Darkness with a monstrous transformation.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I'm sad to see no love for Medusa.

I'd love to see her as a Boss.

...I debate whether Eggplant Wizard should be playable or not.

Honestly, he shouldn't be. But he'd make a great AT.

...or Mii Mage costume.

If you think that's weird. I also ship Rosalina with Ridley and Lucas as their son.

I'm not sorry.

/mashes Ignore button

 

[cosmicB]

[.QUOTE="cosmicB, post: 24039952, member: 450441"]A large amount of people complaining about something doesn't mean that complaint has validity. That's a fallacy along the same lines of Tyranny of the Majority. I know people that were complaining about "too many Fire Emblem characters" in Melee. Does that mean their complaints should have been given any room to breathe? Of course not. Like, do you think the tens of thousands of people saying "who's this no name?" in regards to Eleven and the other DQ heroes have validity in that view?

SNK I'll give you, but you're damn right Tales is more iconic than Banjo Kazooie. Banjo's legacy was a minor bump in design philosophy for the 3D platformer collectathon before the genre went into stasis for over a decade outside of Mario and still has just barely broken out of it. Tales on the other hand is a codifier for a bunch of well-regarded aspects of ARPGs that have been utilized elsewhere including in franchises that have since eclipsed it (and even in some fighting games). While not quite to the same extent, the LMBS is to ARPGs what ATB is to command-based RPGs. And on top of all that, it actually survived its entire continuing career without any real lulls unlike its contemporaries like Star Ocean and Mana.

Edit: Just to be clear, this isn't meant to downplay Banjo Kazooie. It's a fantastic game (I'm not as much a fan of Tooie) that probably would have had an incredibly strong legacy had history with Rare been just a little different. Unfortunately, it was a flash in the pan and its characters are considered "classic" more than iconic, which Smash is no stranger to. It's not an opinion on quality and my favorite game of all time (Chrono Trigger) is in a similar state of existence.
(I don't really like Banjo-Kazooie(as a platformer game) but) Banjo-Kazooie was a big N64 game and Banjo-Kazooie is not rarely regarded as a "lost Nintendo character/mascot". People generally associate 3D platformers to him after Mario. I agree that he's more "classic" than "iconic".

It is very misleading to make it sound as if Tales influenced even fighting games, that is SFII, not LMBS, LMBS is inspired by SFII. ARPGs are a niche genre and the (present, although not really birthing) influence Tales had over them is about the extent of it.

Complaints about too many anime swordfighters could only ever stem from too many anime swordfighters unless the people complaining are hallucinating characters. Complaints about characters like DQ (which were few) stem from people's own ignorance and crappy taste, nothingfrom else.

You literally said if people are complaining, that complaint has validity. There was absolutely Hero blowback from even relatively high-profile people like Gumball's voice actor. It's an extremely western-centric mindset, but it happens.

Do you think the "cereal mascot" complaint has validity? There's more of those than swordfighters. What about non-humans entirely? I can absolutely throw the "crappy taste or ignorance" thing back at the people complaining about swordfighters while praising a fighter type that's more represented than it. It's a dumb complaint thats only validity is preference. There are people out there that want every character in the game to be a "cereal mascot", and there's plenty that want the opposite extreme of every character being an anime swordsman. If that's their preference, who are you to tell them they're wrong beyond some arbitrary appeal to numbers?

And LMBS absolutely had influence seeing as the Tales teams shared ideas with the Tekken/Soul Calibur teams. All properties were influencing each other and that spread outside of Namco. It doesn't matter if it started as "what if Street Fighter, but RPG", it broke out of its origins pretty handly by the PS2 era.

And if you're going to call ARPGs a niche genre, then what are 3D collectathons? The genre that basically didn't exist between 2004 and 2017 outside of Mario, a franchise that utilizes a very different design philosophy than stuff like Banjo or Hat in Time. ARPGs definitely had a rough period, but they at least existed in the realm of relative critical success.

 

[DarthEnderX]

There was absolutely Hero blowback from even relatively high-profile people like Gumball's voice actor.

Which one? There's been 3.

 

[ZephyrZ]

But are those birds undead archers? That's what I thought. I want MY bird.

Undead? Check.
Archer? Check.
Birb? Well he has wings.

 

[Digital Hazard]

For some reason I assumed Medusa and Ganondorf would be shipped first, given they're gods of Darkness with a monstrous transformation.

You'd be surprised at the amount of x stuff out there.

 

[Icedragonadam]

I'm surprised I haven't seen any andfriendship art. Considering Banjo who was on a quest to save his younger sister and you have well Lucas......

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I'm surprised I haven't seen any andfriendship art. Considering Banjo who was on a quest to save his younger sister and you have well Lucas......

I can only imagine how rude Kazooie would be to poor to him.

Poor Lucas...

But yeah I could see Banjo being a big brother figure to him. I might adopt that as a Smash headcanon of mine.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

ahem

if yall wanna share headcanons and ships, do so in the Headcanons and Shipping threads, thanks

 

[J. Bond]

You literally said if people are complaining, that complaint has validity. There was absolutely Hero blowback from even relatively high-profile people like Gumball's voice actor. It's an extremely western-centric mindset, but it happens.

Do you think the "cereal mascot" complaint has validity? There's more of those than swordfighters. What about non-humans entirely? I can absolutely throw the "crappy taste or ignorance" thing back at the people complaining about swordfighters while praising a fighter type that's more represented than it. It's a dumb complaint thats only validity is preference. There are people out there that want every character in the game to be a "cereal mascot", and there's plenty that want the opposite extreme of every character being an anime swordsman. If that's their preference, who are you to tell them they're wrong beyond some arbitrary appeal to numbers?

And LMBS absolutely had influence seeing as the Tales teams shared ideas with the Tekken/Soul Calibur teams. All properties were influencing each other and that spread outside of Namco. It doesn't matter if it started as "what if Street Fighter, but RPG", it broke out of its origins pretty handly by the PS2 era.

And if you're going to call ARPGs a niche genre, then what are 3D collectathons? The genre that basically didn't exist between 2004 and 2017 outside of Mario, a franchise that utilizes a very different design philosophy than stuff like Banjo or Hat in Time. ARPGs definitely had a rough period, but they at least existed in the realm of relative critical success.

That complaints imply validity is not what I said, I said complaints imply a base for complaints.
Gumball? Like what the cartoon character? How is he relevant?
I don't think there is an actual serious complaint about "cereal mascots", just anti-Banjo ****posting, DK, Mario, Pikachu, etc. are "cereal mascots", Nintendo is associated with "cereal mascots".
Come on now they "shared ideas" with SoulCalibur teams, is this not a bit stretching for influence?

 

[GoodGrief741]

ahem

if yall wanna share headcanons and ships, do so in the Headcanons and Shipping threads, thanks

Wait we have threads for that?

I genuinely wonder what goes on over there but I don't want to see anything I'll regret.

That complaints imply validity is not what I said, I said complaints imply a base for complaints.

A human being actually wrote this, huh

 

[cosmicB]

Which one? There's been 3.

Don't remember his name, but he's on some Walking Dead thing now. I don't know if the stream is still up, but he let out a loud groan and said no one wanted Hero. Then the Byleth presentation happened and he said people that wanted Byleth are mentally disabled.

 

[SharkLord]

Undead? Check.
Archer? Check.
Birb? Well he has wings.

Actually-Hold on a minute now. He's an angel, and if you die and become and angel...
Holy *** Pit is actually ****ing undead what the ****

 

[J. Bond]

Wait we have threads for that?

I genuinely wonder what goes on over there but I don't want to see anything I'll regret.

A human being actually wrote this, huh

Yes. Complaints don't sprout out of nowhere. Everything has a mover. You heard it here first folks.

 

[PeridotGX]

That big ballot from awhile back wrapped up, here are the results

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Heavy being number one is not something I expected. The account that runs the poll used to be a TF2 for Smash account, so the sample size is a little biased, but I still think it means there's a bigger TF2 for Smash fanbase than anyone expected. DJ Professor K is also really interesting, I wonder if the King's fans will stick around for much longer?

(also Grovyle in the top 50! I thought I was alone...)

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Actually-Hold on a minute now. He's an angel, and if you die and become and angel...
Holy *** Pit is actually ****ing undead what the ****

Is that how angels work? A subreddit I'm on has been a non-Euclidean angel kick recently and I've just assumed they were just holy monsters. Bayonetta really was onto something.

Also if we're talking crack ships, I threw this together after watching Beastars.

 

[Peeton]

Byleth was a disappointing addition to me, but like I don’t really care anymore. I have a lot of fun with them cus I like big hitbox characters that space with melee and not projectiles. My most wanted characters came back (Wolf and Snake) and all of my other picks (Magnus, Dante, Nero) seems like they won’t happen so I’m pretty content.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Is that how angels work? A subreddit I'm on has been a non-Euclidean angel kick recently and I've just assumed they were just holy monsters. Bayonetta really was onto something.
View attachment 280887
Also if we're talking crack ships, I threw this together after watching Beastars.
View attachment 280885

I mean, yeah?

Old Testament/Bayonetta Angels: B̭͚̘E͍̘̟̠͡ ͇͜N̛͔̲̩O̺̟͙̹̼T̟̥̭͚̜̪̳ ̳̱̗̳͉ͅA̼̱̺F͚͍͇͖͔̙͠R̘̳̰͈̩ͅA̴͈̖̻̩̬̤͉Ị̪̙̩͝D̳̣

New Testament Angels/Pit: im baby

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Tales and Banjo games actually sell around the same amount. Bigger titles sell around 1.5-2 million while the smaller ones are blips on the radar.

But at the same time, Tales has been around much longer than Banjo, and it stayed longer than Banjo.

If Banjo is iconic enough to be on the roster, Tales is too. Any other take from that is pure bias, frankly.

 

[cashregister9]

That big ballot from awhile back wrapped up, here are the results

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Heavy being number one is not something I expected. The account that runs the poll used to be a TF2 for Smash account, so the sample size is a little biased, but I still think it means there's a bigger TF2 for Smash fanbase than anyone expected. DJ Professor K is also really interesting, I wonder if the King's fans will stick around for much longer?

(also Grovyle in the top 50! I thought I was alone...)

DJ Professor K and Furret are the only characters I will ever label as meme picks (I do love Furret and KFAD was great and the Term "Meme pick" isn't inherently derogatory it just means that memes got those characters to some level of notoriety and someone liked it enough to want them in smash)

Even though this poll is similar to most of the polls before it. It is still interesting to see some more data laid out with an even larger sample size

 

[PeridotGX]

DJ Professor K and Furret are the only characters I will ever label as meme picks (I do love Furret and KFAD was great and the Term "Meme pick" isn't inherently derogatory it just means that memes got those characters to some level of notoriety and someone liked it enough to want them in smash)

Even though this poll is similar to most of the polls before it. It is still interesting to see some more data laid out with an even larger sample size

KFAD wasn't a meme, but I will agree that it's the only reason he's requested. Appearantly he's pretty insignificant in the JSR games.

Furret is a total meme though. I'm suprised that it's the most popular Pokemon on the list (and one of two)

 

[Jomosensual]

Actually. He did.

It was a rule during Brawl and we have had no statements that it's changed.

If Joker and Cloud are in(especially Joker) it feels like it's dead. The fact we're talking about a cameo as an alt skin counting or not feels like we're stretching it to the point where it legit doesnt matter.

 

[SharkLord]

That big ballot from awhile back wrapped up, here are the results

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Heavy being number one is not something I expected. The account that runs the poll used to be a TF2 for Smash account, so the sample size is a little biased, but I still think it means there's a bigger TF2 for Smash fanbase than anyone expected. DJ Professor K is also really interesting, I wonder if the King's fans will stick around for much longer?

(also Grovyle in the top 50! I thought I was alone...)

I'm pretty happy with how my most wanteds placed. Bandana Dee getting so close to the Top Five is really impressive, considering how he's a first-party supporting protagonist in a third-party dominated speculation scene, especially with the whole "Hat Goomba" stigma. Reimu getting into the Top 15, as well as surpassing recent successes and long-running legends like Dante, 2B, and Master Chief is a major success for a Japan-based indie series, and Klonoa getting voted at all is a small miracle.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

That big ballot from awhile back wrapped up, here are the results

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Heavy being number one is not something I expected. The account that runs the poll used to be a TF2 for Smash account, so the sample size is a little biased, but I still think it means there's a bigger TF2 for Smash fanbase than anyone expected. DJ Professor K is also really interesting, I wonder if the King's fans will stick around for much longer?

(also Grovyle in the top 50! I thought I was alone...)

awww, Elma's not there anymore, she was before...

BUT NEKU. AT 13. YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

 

[SharkLord]

awww, Elma's not there anymore, she was before...

BUT NEKU. AT 13. YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

I think once Ballot Man said Elma's the only one to have been raided, so he may have deducted points accordingly.
As a side note, I find Heavy to be quite the darkhorse victor, especially with how much he shot up. Aside from Ballot Man's accound previously being Demoman For Smash, he apparently also posted the poll on Reddit, where there was a lot of TF2 fans. Dunno if it was the TF2 subreddit or just a lot of TF2 fans on the site.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think once Ballot Man said Elma's the only one to have been raided, so he may have deducted points accordingly.
As a side note, I find Heavy to be quite the darkhorse victor, especially with how much he shot up. Aside from Ballot Man's accound previously being Demoman For Smash, he apparently also posted the poll on Reddit, where there was a lot of TF2 fans. Dunno if it was the TF2 subreddit or just a lot of TF2 fans on the site.

From what I'm reading, he didn't post the poll on Reddit. Someone else did. https://twitter.com/FNSeasonSmash/status/1289719006899838978

Not that I disagree that it looks awkward to have such a massive vote jump in just four days.

 

[WaddleMatt]

That big ballot from awhile back wrapped up, here are the results

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Heavy being number one is not something I expected. The account that runs the poll used to be a TF2 for Smash account, so the sample size is a little biased, but I still think it means there's a bigger TF2 for Smash fanbase than anyone expected. DJ Professor K is also really interesting, I wonder if the King's fans will stick around for much longer?

(also Grovyle in the top 50! I thought I was alone...)

This poll is ****ing bull**** lol, the guy was obsessed with being the biggest poll ever, I bet it was botted to ****. The fact Heavy grew to 1.5k more votes this quickly is ridiculous, there is no way in hell that Heavy is the most wanted Smash character and I say this as someone who loves TF2. People can use the silent majority argument but you can't possibly convince me that he has a silent majority when you see how prolific the other characters in the top 10 are and how Smash fanbases are as a whole. Also don't forget the guy running the ballot literally used to be the guy running a TF2 Smash Support Account.

 

[Garteam]

That big ballot from awhile back wrapped up, here are the results

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Heavy being number one is not something I expected. The account that runs the poll used to be a TF2 for Smash account, so the sample size is a little biased, but I still think it means there's a bigger TF2 for Smash fanbase than anyone expected. DJ Professor K is also really interesting, I wonder if the King's fans will stick around for much longer?

(also Grovyle in the top 50! I thought I was alone...)

Seeing Leon in this list hurts. I know it was the spirits or nothing, but Resident Evil not getting a playable rep seems like a wasted opportunity.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I just stopped trusting individual polls a long time ago. It's better to look at trends than one poll.

To be honest, the only polls I trust are from Shorts.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Actually-Hold on a minute now. He's an angel, and if you die and become and angel...
Holy *** Pit is actually ****ing undead what the ****

Now I'm wondering who Pit was before he died.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Now I'm wondering who Pit was before he died.

An idiot.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Now I'm wondering who Pit was before he died.

Greece's own Kid Icarus.

...Why else would he be such a dork?

 

[GoodGrief741]

An idiot.

Well then it's good to know dying young didn't change that aspect of him.