Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

J. Bond

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 23, 2020
Messages
218
Okay, so changing topic, we all know that Phoenix Wright is a decently requested character and that a number of people have Saber in mind.

However, I'm curious, what other characters from visual novels would you guys think would make interesting choices?
Wright is my main choice plus Ayumi Tachibana (chances higher than ever if the remake gets localized) and Prof. Layton(that s a puzzle character too). Danganropa over PW is ****ing ridiculous I don't want to hear about that.
I do think Wright is hard to implement
I haven't played UMvC3 but in the gameplay I've seen his movement is a bit awkward, doesn't fit in well in a fighting game. But that's what Sakurai said for Villager I suppose.

You can't just declare something to be a bad argument just because you don't like it lmao. That's not how it works.
It does not adress there being 8 Fire Emblem characters
 
Last edited:

osby

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
17,481
Okay, so changing topic, we all know that Phoenix Wright is a decently requested character and that a number of people have Saber in mind.

However, I'm curious, what other characters from visual novels would you guys think would make interesting choices?
I think Kyle Hyde from Hotel Dusk would be a really interesting addition even if from a purely visual standpoint.
 

SNEKeater

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
1,892
Assuming Shinobi is teasing something (he's more about teasing than leaking, btw) it could be anything. We know 99% for sure that Sony and Microsoft will have some type of event this month, so the tweet doesn't have to be related to Nintendo.
Also, while Shinobi has certainly teased Nintendo related things in the past, afaik he's more of a fan of Sony/Microsoft games to put it in a way, he usually doesn't play a lot of Nintendo games (besides being a super fan of Golden Sun), so if anything I'd first assume his tease it's more related to PS5 and Series X than anything.

There's also a DC event I think where the new game from Rocksteady game is rumoured to be announced.
 

osby

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
17,481
Whatever happened to the good ol "Kid Icarus bias" days?
Same with Star Fox: It skipped an installment and Smash fans finally got that a franchise getting more characters than they want doesn't mean a hyper-obsession on Sakurai's part.
 

J. Bond

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 23, 2020
Messages
218
I think Kyle Hyde from Hotel Dusk would be a really interesting addition even if from a purely visual standpoint.
This too, his 2 games are underappreciated DS classics and if I recall he is the only moving trophy in Brawl, and is in as a spirit, would make for a good unexpected/joke character.
 

SNEKeater

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
1,892
They'll come back soon. Sakurai spoke to me personally and said Viridi, Hades, Medusa and Dog are the next 4 DLC characters.
Not even mad with this lineup.
I'll defend that Hades was robbed, he deserved to be a boss or something.
 

Idon

Smash Legend
Joined
May 24, 2018
Messages
15,917
Location
Underworld
NNID
Dark Slayer
Switch FC
Approaching Storm
Other underrepresented Nintendo franchises: "NO, YOU ALREADY HAD YOUR TURN TO GET A CHARACTER, WHEN IS IT OUR TURN!?"

Fire Emblem franchise:
1596308500582.png
 
Last edited:

cosmicB

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 28, 2019
Messages
648
Let us be realistic and serious:
Going from Dragon Quest to Tales is a ridiculous downgrade. Dragon Quest is the most iconic and influential JRPG series of all time together with FF. No offense to Tales fans but Tales is pretty much just the more popular of many anime JRPGs. Going from Hero to Lloyd is a comical downgrade. Awfully sticks out. Do we really need this literal anime swordsman?
Tales is a 20 million selling franchise. That's only 10 million behind Kingdom Hearts. Let's count the franchises that aren't as big already represented in Smash:

Metroid
Persona
Star Fox
Fire Emblem
Splatoon
Xeno

And those are just the ones listed in the highest selling game franchise list. It doesn't include long running stuff that never set the world on fire like Mother or stuff with little data like SNK stuff.

This isn't to say Lloyd or Yuri or Alphen or whoever is getting in or is more "deserving" than other characters, but to deny Tales iconic nature is absurd.
 

SNEKeater

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
1,892
Tales is a 20 million selling franchise. That's only 10 million behind Kingdom Hearts. Let's count the franchises that aren't as big already represented in Smash:

Metroid
Persona
Star Fox
Fire Emblem
Splatoon
Xeno

And those are just the ones listed in the highest selling game franchise list. It doesn't include long running stuff that never set the world on fire like Mother or stuff with little data like SNK stuff.

This isn't to say Lloyd or Yuri or Alphen or whoever is getting in or is more "deserving" than other characters, but to deny Tales iconic nature is absurd.
But Tales is anime. And a JRPG. And both Yuri and Lloyd use swords. Therefore, it's a bad choice.
 

J. Bond

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 23, 2020
Messages
218
Tales is a 20 million selling franchise. That's only 10 million behind Kingdom Hearts. Let's count the franchises that aren't as big already represented in Smash:

Metroid
Persona
Star Fox
Fire Emblem
Splatoon
Xeno

And those are just the ones listed in the highest selling game franchise list. It doesn't include long running stuff that never set the world on fire like Mother or stuff with little data like SNK stuff.

This isn't to say Lloyd or Yuri or Alphen or whoever is getting in or is more "deserving" than other characters, but to deny Tales iconic nature is absurd.
You listed only Nintendo franchises + Persona which was in my view a horrible choice.
I'm not saying it's not iconic (with a rather liberal use of the word however) but it is not as iconic, important and classic as a lot of other franchises which is why I don't see it as a good choice and there is nothing wrong with people complaining about too many anime sword characters, that is a legitimate complaint, why would you shut it down. We essentially agree on Tales' status I think there is clearly a difference in the way we see Smash Bros. here, let's just leave it as such.
 
Last edited:

Animegamingnerd

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Messages
811
Location
Medford, Oregon
so here's the "tease" Shinobi did:
overall more a vague wish than a "tease"

...unless there was something else im missing?

*edit* also isn't TGS this month or next?
Considering we are suppose to know the release date and price for both the Series X and PS5 this month, since that will definitely be the big gaming news of the month to pay attention to.
 

PK-remling Fire

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 22, 2018
Messages
416
A shill pick isn't always a bad choice, but it's definitely a gamble with how well they'll be received. Popular mainstays like Ness, Captain Falcon, Marth, Lucas, and Lucario were shill picks at one point too with varying degrees of reception upon their release. Hell, due to shill picks smash can be attributed to series' like Fire Emblem being super popular and Mother/F-Zero still being in the public's consciousness, so the reasoning on 'why' is there.

I think the main success of a shill character can be attributed between design uniqueness, moveset variety, and how memorable their character is outside of the game they're trying to sell. There's a reason why we love Captain Falcon even if some of us have never touched an F-Zero game and why Incineroar has a new wellspring of popularity after his inclusion.
Shill picks aren't bad by default, though they need to not be treated like a commercial, which was why I think reveals akin to Corrin feel off.
 
Last edited:

Mushroomguy12

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
3,324
Won't even bother to discuss this with you wackos, would rather go to the Freddy support thread. (and I don't care if you think Freddy is a good choice!) Let's just leave it at that.
Let us be realistic and serious:
Going from Banjo-Kazooie to FNAF is a ridiculous downgrade. Banjo-Kazooie is the most iconic and influential bear focused series of all time together with Dangonronpa. No offense to FNAF fans but FNAF is pretty much just the more popular of many flavor of the month memey horror bear series. Going from Banjo to Freddy is a comical downgrade. Awfully sticks out. Do we really need this literal Chuck E. Cheese animatronic?
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
1,209
If there's a belief that Dragon Quest to "Tales of" is a downgrade to some but not to others, the only way to resolve this is to have an middlepoint game fighter so that we can properly transition from one to another. That way its not that much of a drop off while still allowing the beloved Namco franchise in.

Hmm, something in between Dragon Quest and Tales of... I got it:

 

osby

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
17,481
Any franchise is a downgrade after Pokemon so the obvious solution is no longer adding characters.

Then, this thread can stop pretending to be about newcomers and just fight over Fire Emblem until the next Smash game.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
8,627
On the subject of shill picks, I think the key to their reception is one that applies to all kinds of marketing: awareness. If people are aware they're being marketed to, their opinion will lean towards the negative from the start. So the trick is to advertise to people, while simultaneously hiding the fact that you are.

In the context of Smash, that basically means picking the right stuff to shill. If your character has other reasons to be in besides advertising, then people will probably latch on to those as the justification rather than the promotional aspect (or at least, the people who like the character will). Conversely, if nobody can think of any other reason for the character to be in, then they'll be seen as pure promotion, and thus a "shill pick". In that sense I think we can consider "shill" the polar opposite of a "deserving" character in the context of speculation.

One example of successful promotion was Isabelle. Her trailer was literally framed as an announcement for a new Animal Crossing, and immediately followed by the actual announcement. It was impossible not to associate the two things or to speak about one without the other, so it put a huge spotlight on the game. Regardless, few will argue that if New Horizons wasn't in development, Isabelle wouldn't, or shouldn't, have been in, so the promotion was seen more as just killing two birds with one stone. Plus, Animal Crossing was seen as both a franchise that could use the promotion, and the extra characters. That, to me, is the example to follow (of course, there's other examples of promotion done right, but Isabelle might be the best modern one).
 

Cosmic77

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 17, 2017
Messages
8,902
Location
On a planet far far away...
Switch FC
2166-0541-5238
Tales is a 20 million selling franchise. That's only 10 million behind Kingdom Hearts. Let's count the franchises that aren't as big already represented in Smash:

Metroid
Persona
Star Fox
Fire Emblem
Splatoon
Xeno

And those are just the ones listed in the highest selling game franchise list. It doesn't include long running stuff that never set the world on fire like Mother or stuff with little data like SNK stuff.

This isn't to say Lloyd or Yuri or Alphen or whoever is getting in or is more "deserving" than other characters, but to deny Tales iconic nature is absurd.
I understand your point, but I don't think you should go by sales alone when judging how "big" a series is.

Splatoon shouldn't be included in this list, because while it hasn't surpassed Tales yet, I'd definitely say it's the bigger franchise. Tales has been around since the mid 90's, and it's accumulated about 20 million sales. Splatoon is five years old, and it's already past 15 million.
 

SharkLord

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
2,957
Location
Pangaea, 250 MYA
Any franchise is a downgrade after Pokemon so the obvious solution is no longer adding characters.

Then, this thread can stop pretending to be about newcomers and just fight over Fire Emblem until the next Smash game.
Y'know what? Let's just cut off development for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate and switch over to Fire Emblem Calibur. There's enough characters to pull that off, really.
 

AreJay25

May or May Not Be Pac-Man
Joined
Mar 4, 2015
Messages
6,734
Location
Location
If only every character was like Ice Climbers. One single game that came out over 30 years ago, so they can't even shill anything because they don't even have a franchise.
 

Icedragonadam

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
3,702
Switch FC
SW-5227-6397-6112
If only every character was like Ice Climbers. One single game that came out over 30 years ago, so they can't even shill anything because they don't even have a franchise.
That explains why they sob instead of clap after every loss of a match.
 

Arcanir

An old friend evolved
Joined
Jul 8, 2013
Messages
5,850
Location
Getting geared up for the 20th
NNID
Shoryu91
3DS FC
4253-4855-5860
A shill pick isn't always a bad choice, but it's definitely a gamble with how well they'll be received. Popular mainstays like Ness, Captain Falcon, Marth, Lucas, and Lucario were shill picks at one point too with varying degrees of reception upon their release. Hell, due to shill picks smash can be attributed to series' like Fire Emblem being super popular and Mother/F-Zero still being in the public's consciousness, so the reasoning on 'why' is there.

I think the main success of a shill character can be attributed between design uniqueness, moveset variety, and how memorable their character is outside of the game they're trying to sell. There's a reason why we love Captain Falcon even if some of us have never touched an F-Zero game and why Incineroar has a new wellspring of popularity after his inclusion.
Shill picks aren't bad by default, though they need to not be treated like a commercial, which was why I think reveals akin to Corrin feel off.
Minor note, but I wouldn't call the first three shill picks, they existed before their inclusion and didn't come out to promote a future game.

With that said, timing and circumstances around their inclusion is also something to consider. Lucario for instance is a very popular Pokemon in that fandom and even had people wanting him in Brawl, but he got backlash because he got in while a major fan favorite Mewtwo got cut. That led to a lot of people hating him for daring to 'replace' their preferred character, and that backlash followed him even up until Mewtwo's return with Smash 4's DLC. By contrast, while Ness was originally meant to be cut for Lucas, the former still returned alongside the latter so he didn't have to worry about any backlash from that aspect.

With FE, Corrin and Byleth kind of fell into that trap as well. With Corrin they followed Cloud who was a very hype character for many, they also followed Roy who was also in the DLC so there was already that fatigue factor, were revealed at a presentation where a lot of people were expecting their fan favorites to get in, Fates wasn't released in the west yet so a lot of fans didn't know much about them, and they were among the final two characters released for Smash 4's DLC. That, on top of Fates being a controversial game and Corrin themselves having mixed reception (well, mostly M!Corrin, F!Corrin does well on polls) was just a perfect recipe for a poor reception. Byleth was better off since they're not the final character for DLC (just the original pack) and Three Houses was released worldwide and was more popularly received, but they did still have that factor of them not meeting the expectations set by the fandom so a lot of fans were disappointed with them when they felt they were getting someone like Dante.
 
Last edited:

Curious Villager

Puzzles...
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
11,410
Location
London
By contrast, while Ness was originally meant to be cut for Lucas, the former still returned alongside the latter so he didn't have to worry about any backlash from that aspect.
Tbf there was that one period of time when Lucas was announced and Sakurai made that one infamous vague "up until now" statement that got a number of fans confused and worried that Ness might have been replaced by Lucas. Some even thinking he outright was at the time.

Just thought I'd mention that.
 
Last edited:

tehponycorn

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Messages
8,905
Location
The Shadow World
NNID
tehponycorn
3DS FC
4253-3486-4603
Kid Icarus Uprising really needs an HD Switch Port.

Please Nintendo I'm left-handed and can't revisit the game due to the controls.
 

cosmicB

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 28, 2019
Messages
648
You listed only Nintendo franchises + Persona which was in my view a horrible choice.
I'm not saying it's not iconic (with a rather liberal use of the word however) but it is not as iconic, important and classic as a lot of other franchises which is why I don't see it as a good choice and there is nothing wrong with people complaining about too many anime sword characters, that is a legitimate complaint, why would you shut it down. We essentially agree on Tales' status I think there is clearly a difference in the way we see Smash Bros. here, let's just leave it as such.
19 out of 76 fighters are sword fighters if we count the Pits, 13 of which are unambiguously anime. The "ew, too many anime swordfighters" complaint never made sense to me. The next 5 DLC characters could all be anime swordfighters (I could even think of great choices off the top of my head to fill those spots) and they'd still be underrepresented.

And I really don't see what you're saying with the "not AS iconic" stance. Of the DLC fighters so far, Tales would be the 2nd most iconic one there is only being beaten by Dragon Quest. We're talking about one of the most historically important ARPG franchises out there.
 

SKX31

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
2,058
Location
Sweden
If only every character was like Ice Climbers. One single game that came out over 30 years ago, so they can't even shill anything because they don't even have a franchise.
Luckily, the Ice Climbers have gotten a new job since Melee.

Grab combo experts.

Top_10_Wobbles_Insane_Ice_Climbers_Plays_2_-_Super_Smash_Bros.gif


Kid Icarus Uprising really needs an HD Switch Port.

Please Nintendo I'm left-handed and can't revisit the game due to the controls.
There are probably other things a HD Switch port of that game could benefit from too, hmm...

Maybe making Palutena / Pittoo playable in more stages in that game? Spitballing ideas, but still.
 

MooMew64

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 4, 2019
Messages
4,063
Location
HHGregg
Kid Icarus Uprising really needs an HD Switch Port.

Please Nintendo I'm left-handed and can't revisit the game due to the controls.
This this this.

The game is held back so much by the hardware it's on. Put it on the Switch and it's an instant 10/10 game.

Also you could put Viridi in Smash too while you're at it, Nintendo.
 

Teeb147

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
9,634
I wouldn't mind if 1 more swordfighter was in the pass somewhere, but I'd at this point I think we do have enough of them :p
 

Arcanir

An old friend evolved
Joined
Jul 8, 2013
Messages
5,850
Location
Getting geared up for the 20th
NNID
Shoryu91
3DS FC
4253-4855-5860
Tbf there was that one period of time when Lucas was announced and Sakurai made that one infamous vague "up until now" statement that got a number of fans confused and worried that Ness might have been replaced by Lucas. Some even thinking he outright was at the time.

Just thought I'd mention that.
Which that's true, there was still resistance to that line and some didn't take kindly to the idea that Ness could be replaced. So there probably still would've been backlash if the cut did go through as originally planned, though whether it would've been up to Lucario's level is another matter of debate.
 
Top Bottom