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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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WeirdChillFever

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Correction, this is the first time you've heard person (singular) objecting against BD.

I've certainly heard a lot of people dismiss him as boring before but usually always as part of a different topic or a responce to why they didn't include him an a list.
Saying Bandana Dee is not as unique moveset wise and looking for other characters from the series that could make a valid trade-off of importance for a more compelling moveset isn’t dismissing though. Everyone is entitled to their own subjective opinion as to what constitutes good character design or compelling moveset material and not liking Bandana Dee in that regard isn‘t dismissal, cause dismissal implies that the person in question is uneducated imo.
 

Opossum

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I would rather have Magolor over Dee just because I think Dee is comparatively pretty boring, but I also recognize that if any other Kirby character got in, it would and should be Dee.
 

Guybrush20X6

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Saying Bandana Dee is not as unique moveset wise and looking for other characters from the series that could make a valid trade-off of importance for a more compelling moveset isn’t dismissing though. Everyone is entitled to their own subjective opinion as to what constitutes good character design or compelling moveset material and not liking Bandana Dee in that regard isn‘t dismissal, cause dismissal implies that the person in question is uneducated imo.
Oh, not for the Kirby series. People making their top 10 characters lists, that sort of thing. Like saying Doomguy would be boring because he only shoots or Halo is a rippoff of Metroid.

you see?
“Kirby being like ARMS and the Dream Friends being more equal in importance than often said“ = I'm dissing BD. Why do I discuss anymore?
Because when people do point out ways that BD is different or more significant you dismiss them out of hand.
 
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Guybrush20X6

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Double post
 
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WeirdChillFever

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Oh, not for the Kirby series. People making their top 10 characters lists, that sort of thing. Like saying Doomguy would be boring because he only shoots or Halo is a rippoff of Metroid.
But then again, compared to All Possible Choices, saying Bandana Dee’s potential isn’t as enticing is not....wrong even. The examples you gave are based on being uneducated (Doom Guy can do more than shoot and Halo is not a Metroid rip-off), but judgement of moveset potential is entirely subjective. Sure, saying that Bandana Dee has a parasol would help but in the end, even with all the knowledge about Dee in the world, one could still decide that he’s not as interesting or likely.
 

Guybrush20X6

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But then again, compared to All Possible Choices, saying Bandana Dee’s potential isn’t as enticing is not....wrong even. The examples you gave are based on being uneducated (Doom Guy can do more than shoot and Halo is not a Metroid rip-off), but judgement of moveset potential is entirely subjective. Sure, saying that Bandana Dee has a parasol would help but in the end, even with all the knowledge about Dee in the world, one could still decide that he’s not as interesting or likely.
Fair enough but I can usually tell which ones are honest "he just wouldn't be interesting enough for me" and what ones are "hat goomba". My point was, that's usually the only place where I hear of him being discounted whereas other anti-character statements tend to be a lot more vocal.
 

Iko MattOrr

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Because when people do point out ways that BD is different or more significant you dismiss them out of hand.
I would agree with you and be sorry about it, but the dismissing is in both directions really. I say Marx, and now Marx is an unimportant one off. I explain why I think he's important and people dismiss it. etc.

But then again, compared to All Possible Choices, saying Bandana Dee’s potential isn’t as enticing is not....wrong even. The examples you gave are based on being uneducated (Doom Guy can do more than shoot and Halo is not a Metroid rip-off), but judgement of moveset potential is entirely subjective. Sure, saying that Bandana Dee has a parasol would help but in the end, even with all the knowledge about Dee in the world, one could still decide that he’s not as interesting or likely.
It's right, I mean, I don't see much potential in Bandana Dee and I don't like him very much, ok, but the problem is that in all this discussion I have never brought up this point, it's other people who brought it up for me and put it in my mouth. Anyway I agree, but I at least tried to avoid to talk about it, also because it was unrelated with the discussion.
 

Eldrake

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I wonder which fan rule Sakurai is going to smash into the blast zone next. My money is on the "Must have a game on Nintendo" fan rule.
 

SNEKeater

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I’ve stopped doing predictions for the most part, but instead go with semi-realistic wants. For the remaining characters, I think we’ll see:

5. The out there character no one expects could be anyone. I’m thinking a character from either Arc System Works or Koei Tecmo. The recent debunked rumor did give me the idea that Sol from Guilty Gear could be an interesting pick, though from what I’ve read, perhaps too much like Terry. And ARMS fulfills the role of a fighting game character in FP2. I’m less certain about Hayabusa, even though I think Koei Tecmo makes sense as the next new company to come into Smash. Also doesn’t work well for this category given how much speculation has been on him. Maybe Dyansty Warriors, though I don’t know if that conflicts with Sakurai’s stated aversion to adding real or historical people. A BlazBlue character perhaps. Either way, whomever it is, it’s someone I would currently give a 1-5% chance of being in, and as such hard to say with any confidence. I just know there is going to be at least one.
Sol doesn't resembles Terry at all, the only thing both would maybe share is some special moves being somewhat similar visually speaking. Beyond that they are really different and Sol in Smash would probably play very aggresive, especially if Sakurai decides to give him mechanics from his series.

I honestly don't think being an assist trophy really had much of an impact on Spring Man's exclusion. With Spring Man being in the initial line-up, getting used for a fake-out in the Min Min trailer, and Sakurai not mentioning Spring Man's assist trophy when discussing him in the Min Min direct, it seemed like he was just as eligible as anyone else.

Min Min's inclusion looks to be exactly what Sakurai says it was, a request from Yabuki. It's not a conspiracy against Spring Man or an embrace of Min Min as the new mascot over Spring Man, it's just putting a creator's favourite as a character in a crossover fighting game. There's no hard rule that the mascot has to be the first to get into a crossover, as is shown by Zero in MvC3, Mai in DoA6, and Akuma in Tekken 7. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I do think Sakurai may've started off by considering Spring Man, which would explain why he had the "Spring Man's not the protagonist, everyone's the protagonist!" conversation with Yabuki. He may've brought Spring Man to Yabuki precisely because he believed Spring Man was the protagonist and thusly a natural fit to represent ARMS, which would led Yabuki to say "well technically everyone is the protagonist, so maybe you should go with a fan favourite?". From there, Sakurai would naturally focus in on Ninjara and Min Min, with Yabuki giving his personal blessing to Min Min.

Granted, this is all just conjecture based on a few statements we don't know the full context of, so I could easily be wrong. I imagine Sakurai's upcoming Famitsu column(s) will provide a more detailed account of how exactly selecting Min Min went.
Tbf, Smash has been until this point a crossover game that always picks the mascot or the protagonist when it comes to add a new franchise. Other fighting games have different circumstances. Tekken isn't a crossover in it's nature despite having a few guests, for example.

I wonder if Min Min being a request from Yabuki was what Sakurai meant when he said the ARMS character was a special request.
I always assumed that since Min Min was announced. That wording was one of the things that made me think that the character could be Min Min, because we already knew Yabuki likes Min Min and that was a point that was frequently mentioned when people discussed if the character was her.
 
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WeirdChillFever

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I wonder which fan rule Sakurai is going to smash into the blast zone next. My money is on the "Must have a game on Nintendo" fan rule.
I already considered this one to be shaky. Cloud has no representation on Nintendo other than I think Theatrhythm and while Sakurai said that that appearance helped him, he didn’t make it seem like it would’ve stopped him dead in his tracks if he didn’t appear in that game.
 

Aetheri

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People arguing Bandana Dee's importance to the Kirby series as if :ultpiranha: doesn't exist.

That said, I'm pretty indifferent to him overall, perhaps he could be fun and unique but that could be said for just about any character anyways.
 

Shinuto

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So Question/Discusson Time:

Why did neither Shovel Knight, Cuphead, or Sans get in Smash at a true playable level?

Personally, I think the argument "It's because Nintendo doesn't view Indies as important enough" ignores much about their connections and support for indie gaming as a whole. All have made an impact with their success stories. Nintendo has been promoting indie titles for the better part of a decade now. Simple Eshop art at first but now we have full on directs focusing on them. We even had a crossover between the Crypt of the Necrodancer and Zelda.

These three are some of the most popular current indie titles. I personally think they weren't chosen due to being too recent. They have yet to cement themselves as long running popular series, for the most part they have one or 2 games to their name. I feel if one has to be chosen it has to be a character with decent popularity and has a legacy.

And the two indies I think fit that best are Reimu and Shantae. With Shantae fitting the best overall.
 

DuskFleur

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I already considered this one to be shaky. Cloud has no representation on Nintendo other than I think Theatrhythm and while Sakurai said that that appearance helped him, he didn’t make it seem like it would’ve stopped him dead in his tracks if he didn’t appear in that game.
There was also Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories on the GameBoy Advance, if you want to get technical about it.
 

Guybrush20X6

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I would agree with you and be sorry about it, but the dismissing is in both directions really. I say Marx, and now Marx is an unimportant one off. I explain why I think he's important and people dismiss it. etc.


It's right, I mean, I don't see much potential in Bandana Dee and I don't like him very much, ok, but the problem is that in all this discussion I have never brought up this point, it's other people who brought it up for me and put it in my mouth. Anyway I agree, but I at least tried to avoid to talk about it, also because it was unrelated with the discussion.
I never said that Marx was unimportant. Where the heck did that come from?
 

Cutie Gwen

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So Question/Discusson Time:

Why did neither Shovel Knight, Cuphead, or Sans get in Smash at a true playable level?

Personally, I think the argument "It's because Nintendo doesn't view Indies as important enough" ignores much about their connections and support for indie gaming as a whole. All have made an impact with their success stories. Nintendo has been promoting indie titles for the better part of a decade now. Simple Eshop art at first but now we have full on directs focusing on them. We even had a crossover between the Crypt of the Necrodancer and Zelda.

These three are some of the most popular current indie titles. I personally think they weren't chosen due to being too recent. They have yet to cement themselves as long running popular series, for the most part they have one or 2 games to their name. I feel if one has to be chosen it has to be a character with decent popularity and has a legacy.

And the two indies I think fit that best are Reimu and Shantae. With Shantae fitting the best overall.
Honestly? I think they just weren't considered until after the project plan was done. We know for a fact that Sans only got that mii costume due to Toby Fox and Sakurai running into each other and hanging out, pass 2 was likely already decided by then and Sakurai realized "holy **** I can get indie games represented like this"
 

RetrogamerMax

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On the topic of Bandana Dee: Regardless if you like him or not or whether you think he has any moveset potential or not, he is Kirby's 4th wheel and that can't be denied. He is always right there beside Kirby, Dedede, and Meta Knight on the covers, in games, ect.
 
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All Smash fans say is "BORING, UNIMPORTANT, HAT GOOMBA, OTHER KIRBY CHARACTERS ARE COOLER"
I just wanna fish for God's sake!
 

Jomosensual

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I'm team Marx for the next Kirby rep because Marx rules and BWD's moveset doesn't seem fun. Not sure if being a boss deconfirms though so I'm not exactly exciting it to happen in this game
 
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MooMew64

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To be quite honest, I don't really care who it is, I just desperately want another Kirby character.

Mainly so Sakurai can finally acknowledge that content past Air Ride besides music exists. Kirby's Final Smash is nice, but like...I want something a little more grand, lol.
 

Guybrush20X6

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Okay, to break away from today's Bandana Dee controver-see (I'm so sorry for the awful pun), what would be a good reveal trailer for Dig Dug?
It depends on whether he has the pump or not.
 

Phoenix Douchebag

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Agreed. It got me into Metroid, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade Chronicles, Castlevania, SNK's multiverse, etc., and that's just the actual fighters. About ahlf of my interests I first heard about through Smash speculation, actually.
I remember beign so interesed in Isaac i actually played Golden Sun 1 and 2 to get more familiar and hyped for Smash.

......im still waiting............
 

SharkLord

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Well we know there's going to be at least one 3rd party and Sakurai did speak of how 3rd party communications were more difficult in Lockdown.
I mean, it could also include the Miis, right? They've gotta speak with the owners for the Miis, too.
The only time you're allowed to get angry on the internet is about inconsequential discourse over the video game equivalent of a tangerine with a stick and a rag. That's common knowledge.
Whippity whine the nickname is mine
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Poor Bandanna Dee just had the bad fortune of becoming most prominent after the last Smash game (Brawl) that seemed to actually care about pulling anything contemporary from the Kirby series.
 

Dalek_Kolt

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BanDee's okay, my only issue is if Kirby gets more newcomers, I'd rather see one of these fellows make it in Smash first since "Spooky final boss" is an archetype deeply ingrained in Kirby to the point that I feel like it deserves a character.
1593277406973.png

I'm currently pushing for Dark Matter.
 

Staarih

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For some reason, my take on Bandana Dee is that he would "complete" the Kirby characters in Smash, similarly to how I felt with Ridley completing the Metroid characters (Dark Samus was a cherry on top of the cake). No idea why I have that feeling, must be my OCD kicking in or something lol. I have the same dilemma with DK and Dixie Kong - if they would get in, I'd be more than content with their series' (playable) representation.
 

SharkLord

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So Question/Discusson Time:

Why did neither Shovel Knight, Cuphead, or Sans get in Smash at a true playable level?

Personally, I think the argument "It's because Nintendo doesn't view Indies as important enough" ignores much about their connections and support for indie gaming as a whole. All have made an impact with their success stories. Nintendo has been promoting indie titles for the better part of a decade now. Simple Eshop art at first but now we have full on directs focusing on them. We even had a crossover between the Crypt of the Necrodancer and Zelda.

These three are some of the most popular current indie titles. I personally think they weren't chosen due to being too recent. They have yet to cement themselves as long running popular series, for the most part they have one or 2 games to their name. I feel if one has to be chosen it has to be a character with decent popularity and has a legacy.

And the two indies I think fit that best are Reimu and Shantae. With Shantae fitting the best overall.
Shovel Knight came too late. The roster was finalized at the end of 2015, and it would've been too early to tell how popular Shovel Knight would be. Sans and Cuphead were probably just not planned, and so they took advantage of their proportions to make some PreMiiums.

The Shovel Knight part also kinda applies to BWD. At the time the roster was finished, he had two playable appearances, a food giver role, and some cameos. It's better than what most Kirby characters can say, but it's still not that much. After the roster was finalized, his headcount pretty much doubled, getting two more playable roles, another food giver role, and some more cameos. He's solidified himself as the fourth main character now, but he hadn't done that back then.
All Smash fans say is "BORING, UNIMPORTANT, HAT GOOMBA, OTHER KIRBY CHARACTERS ARE COOLER"
I just wanna fish for God's sake!
I never realized he could do that.

...Screw it, that's his grab now. No ifs, ands, or buts.
 

StrawHatX

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I often forget how cool the characters in the Kirby series are. I’m shocked it hasn’t gotten a new rep since Dedede.
 

Guybrush20X6

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For some reason, my take on Bandana Dee is that he would "complete" the Kirby characters in Smash, similarly to how I felt with Ridley completing the Metroid characters (Dark Samus was a cherry on top of the cake). No idea why I have that feeling, must be my OCD kicking in or something lol. I have the same dilemma with DK and Dixie Kong - if they would get in, I'd be more than content with their series' (playable) representation.
There's a lot of characters that I also feel have an air of "completing" a series.

Toad and Waluigi from Mario
Toon Zelda and a different version of Ganon from Zelda
Generation 3, 5 and 8 Pokemon
Dixie Kong and Cranky Kong from DK
Poochie and/or Kamek from Yoshi
Slippy, Peppy and Krystal from Star Fox
Bandanna Dee from Kirby

And that's just the original series. Only one that I'd say has all the characters it needs based on my very odd gut feeling is Metroid.
 

SharkLord

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There's a lot of characters that I also feel have an air of "completing" a series.

Toad and Waluigi from Mario
Toon Zelda and a different version of Ganon from Zelda
Generation 3, 5 and 8 Pokemon
Dixie Kong and Cranky Kong from DK
Poochie and/or Kamek from Yoshi
Slippy, Peppy and Krystal from Star Fox
Bandanna Dee from Kirby

And that's just the original series. Only one that I'd say has all the characters it needs based on my very odd gut feeling is Metroid.
To be fair, Metroid's design means it'll have an inherently minimalist cast. The only characters that have appeared more than twice are Samus, Ridley, Dark Samus, and maybe Mother Brain if we count the creations based on her, like MB and the Aurora Units.
 
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There's a lot of characters that I also feel have an air of "completing" a series.

Toad and Waluigi from Mario
Toon Zelda and a different version of Ganon from Zelda
Generation 3, 5 and 8 Pokemon
Dixie Kong and Cranky Kong from DK
Poochie and/or Kamek from Yoshi
Slippy, Peppy and Krystal from Star Fox
Bandanna Dee from Kirby

And that's just the original series. Only one that I'd say has all the characters it needs based on my very odd gut feeling is Metroid.
I see Toon Zelda a lot and I find it interesting. She's only a thing in the end game of Wind Waker (not including her time as Tetra) and then primarily exists in Spirit Tracks as a ghost. I might be forgetting something, but I'm curious what the motivation is for Toon Zelda specifically instead of Tetra, who shows up just as much.
 

Aetheri

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To be fair, Metroid's design means it'll have an inherently minimalist cast. The only characters that have appeared more than twice are Samus, Ridley, Dark Samus, and maybe Mother Brain if we count the creations based on her, like MB and the Aurora Units.
Mother Brain has two canonical appearances not counting MB. The first Metroid and Super Metroid. Then there's Kraid who's appeared in the same games and was planned for Prime 1.
 

Evil Trapezium

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I think the problem with Kirby newcomers is that they suffer from the same problem as Legend of Zelda that you have all the most prominent characters already in the game leaving you with a bunch of one and done characters. You have Link, Zelda and Ganondorf to Kirby, Metaknight and King Dedede. Kirby doesn't have it as bad since Bandana Dee seems like the obvious 4th choice by comparison but apart from him, everyone else stands out about as well as each other.
 
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