Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Undella2]

To be honest, the main reason I'd prefer Magolor's addition over BWD's addition is that I think that Magolor's pretty neat.

I don't currently have anything against Bandana Waddle Dee, per se, I just like Magolor's design and whatnot a bit more.

I'd presume a similar sentiment is shared among many who would prefer a Kirby character such as Adeleine, Marx, Magolor, etc. over the Dee.

Anyway...

I've got a question, as I took a break from reading smash forums for a few months due to college classes and whatnot. How likely of an addition is Reimu seen as nowadays?

I have a friend who'd quite like to see her in, so I was wondering what her chances are roughly currently viewed as.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I see Toon Zelda a lot and I find it interesting. She's only a thing in the end game of Wind Waker (not including her time as Tetra) and then primarily exists in Spirit Tracks as a ghost. I might be forgetting something, but I'm curious what the motivation is for Toon Zelda specifically instead of Tetra, who shows up just as much.

Because Tetra is one specific instance of Toon Zelda where as Toon Zelda can cover all of her, the one from Four Swords, the one from Minish Cap and the one from Spirit Tracks. Granted it's usually Tetra, her use of the Light Bow as Zelda and Spirit Tracks Zelda that are used in conversation but I have seen one moveset where Toon Zelda uses the shield she gives Link in Minish cap as a tilt attack

 

[SharkLord]

I think the problem with Kirby newcomers is that they suffer from the same problem as Legend of Zelda that you have all the most prominent characters already in the game leaving you with a bunch of one and done characters. You have Link, Zelda and Ganondorf to Kirby, Metaknight and King Dedede. Kirby doesn't have it as bad since Bandana Dee seems like the obvious 4th choice by comparison but apart from him, everyone else stands out about as well as each other.

Yeah, that's the thing. Kirby at least has more continuity now, which benefits Bandana Dee, and to a lesser extent, Galacta Knight and Magolor. Zelda only really has, what, Impa?

To be honest, the main reason I'd prefer Magolor's addition over BWD's addition is that I think that Magolor's pretty neat.

I don't currently have anything against Bandana Waddle Dee, per se, I just like Magolor's design and whatnot a bit more.

I'd presume a similar sentiment is shared among many who would prefer a Kirby character such as Adeleine, Marx, Magolor, etc. over the Dee.

Anyway...

I've got a question, as I took a break from reading smash forums for a few months due to college classes and whatnot. How likely of an addition is Reimu seen as nowadays?

I have a friend who'd quite like to see her in, so I was wondering what her chances are roughly currently viewed as.

Agreed. I can't find any Kirby character I'd be unhappy with, I just like Bandana Dee more.

Anyways, Reimu's probably in the best place she's been in a while. Most of her competition's gone (Though Shantae's come back), and ZUN has stated that he wants Touhou in Smash. There was some talk about the doujin leak again in Reimu's support thread; General consensus is that it's gone on for too long to be very likely, but we can't count it out just yet due to the alleged release date. FP7 will probably put it to rest. That being said, a couple trademarks were filed, including an oddly specific one for the Hakurei Shrine, so...

Long story short, she's at least considered a legitimate contender at the moment.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Because Tetra is one specific instance of Toon Zelda where as Toon Zelda can cover all of her, the one from Four Swords, the one from Minish Cap and the one from Spirit Tracks. Granted it's usually Tetra, her use of the Light Bow as Zelda and Spirit Tracks Zelda that are used in conversation but I have seen one moveset where Toon Zelda uses the shield she gives Link in Minish cap as a tilt attack

Gotcha. I wasn't thinking about Minish Cap and Four Swords. I have a feeling she wouldn't be taken too well if she was pulled directly from Spirit Tracks. I would love it, but I don't think most would. A more Minish/Four Swords inspired Zelda would probably be a lot better.

 

[Royalty1702]

Obviously, I'm a Bandana Waddle Dee supporter and I have no problem with other Kirby characters making it in. My issue is with the ****posters. The moment I see Magolor joining Smash, I can already see the trolls coming out of their den to "dab on our graves" or whatever. Yes, some BWD supporters can be annoying (or even toxic, which I hate) toward Adeleine supporters or Marxists with the whole "Bandana Dee is the only one who can make it in!" but I think it's excusable because it's driven by hype, not malice (usually). I don't think being annoying is a good enough reason to **** all over one's grave after something they've been waiting for years doesn't happen.

My reason for wanting BWD in is because I love Waddle Dees. They are my favorite fictional species. Cute, careless, round, and what have you. I'm also a sucker for the whole "person who can be distingushed among the rest" trope. The best part about BWD is that he is incredibly basic because basicness is one of the ways how the Kirby series is recognized and one of my main criticisms of the more modern designs, like Magolor and Susie. Overdesigned, comparatively complex designs are cool when it comes to final boss characters but not when it comes to the playable heroes. There are exceptions here and there but for the most part, Kirby should be recognized by how basic it is, gameplay-wise and design-wise. To me, at least.

Back to BWD, his design is the biggest example of his basicness: slightly darker than your average Waddle Dee, choice of weapon (spear/parasol), and his bandana. Most Deetractors would list off more "well-designed" characters but, they miss the point of how BWD's bandana captures another part of what makes the Kirby series good: it's childish nature. It's a literal piece of cloth put on someone's head. It's the equivalent of a kid making a paper hat to make himself look different then everyone else without making any drastic changes. It's very childish and imaginative and that's what I see in BWD's design.

I can go on about BWD's appeal to me but I think you get the point. BWD moveset potential doesn't matter much to me. Sooner or later, we're gonna get another Spear user that isn't BWD and I'm gonna start seeing "Bandana Dee BTFO" and **** but I'm still going to keep supporting him.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Made this a long time ago, but I'd be down for a polearm user.
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE

 

[NeonBurrito]

BanDee's okay, my only issue is if Kirby gets more newcomers, I'd rather see one of these fellows make it in Smash first since "Spooky final boss" is an archetype deeply ingrained in Kirby to the point that I feel like it deserves a character.
View attachment 276443
I'm currently pushing for Dark Matter.

I've always thought that giving Kirby both Dark Matter and Bandana Waddle Dee would be a super great way to diversify the series. You get a Kumazaki-era character and a Shimomura-era character, a good guy with a new weapon and a bad guy completely different from the rest of the cast, etc.
Dark Matter in general is super underrated in terms of Smash speculation with how prominent he is in the series. Pretty much every final boss in the series aside from Marx has some sort of connection to him.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I love Planet Robobot and Susie could be like Tron Bonne.

But then who will Tron Bonne be like when SHE get's added?!

 

[SharkLord]

Made this a long time ago, but I'd be down for a polearm user.
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE
View attachment 276457

I find it interesting that between the two, they're not a "normal" polearm wielder. Bandana Dee would be unique in that most small fighters like Kirby and Pichu have pitiful range due to their small size, so a zoner with a small hitbox would be a new archtype. On Ganon's side, the guy would be pretty big and heavy, and I don't think we have a real "big guy" zoner, either. So far, we haven't had a middleweight polearm fighter around the Mario/Marth size range. Strange, isn't it?

 

[Perkilator]

Made this a long time ago, but I'd be down for a polearm user.
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE
View attachment 276457

Obviously, I'm a Bandana Waddle Dee supporter and I have no problem with other Kirby characters making it in. My issue is with the ****posters. The moment I see Magolor joining Smash, I can already see the trolls coming out of their den to "dab on our graves" or whatever. Yes, some BWD supporters can be annoying (or even toxic, which I hate) toward Adeleine supporters or Marxists with the whole "Bandana Dee is the only one who can make it in!" but I think it's excusable because it's driven by hype, not malice (usually). I don't think being annoying is a good enough reason to **** all over one's grave after something they've been waiting for years doesn't happen.

My reason for wanting BWD in is because I love Waddle Dees. They are my favorite fictional species. Cute, careless, round, and what have you. I'm also a sucker for the whole "person who can be distingushed among the rest" trope. The best part about BWD is that he is incredibly basic because basicness is one of the ways how the Kirby series is recognized and one of my main criticisms of the more modern designs, like Magolor and Susie. Overdesigned, comparatively complex designs are cool when it comes to final boss characters but not when it comes to the playable heroes. There are exceptions here and there but for the most part, Kirby should be recognized by how basic it is, gameplay-wise and design-wise. To me, at least.

Back to BWD, his design is the biggest example of his basicness: slightly darker than your average Waddle Dee, choice of weapon (spear/parasol), and his bandana. Most Deetractors would list off more "well-designed" characters but, they miss the point of how BWD's bandana captures another part of what makes the Kirby series good: it's childish nature. It's a literal piece of cloth put on someone's head. It's the equivalent of a kid making a paper hat to make himself look different then everyone else without making any drastic changes. It's very childish and imaginative and that's what I see in BWD's design.

I can go on about BWD's appeal to me but I think you get the point. BWD moveset potential doesn't matter much to me. Sooner or later, we're gonna get another Spear user that isn't BWD and I'm gonna start seeing "Bandana Dee BTFO" and **** but I'm still going to keep supporting him.

My line of thinking exactly. I especially can't stand the ****posters who are either all for or against him.

 

[DarthEnderX]

BanDee's okay, my only issue is if Kirby gets more newcomers, I'd rather see one of these fellows make it in Smash first since "Spooky final boss" is an archetype deeply ingrained in Kirby to the point that I feel like it deserves a character.

No, what "spooky final boss" deserves, is to be a Boss. Which is why Marx already is.

 

[Perkilator]

No, what "spooky final boss" deserves, is to be a Boss. Which is why Marx already is.

What about Dark Matter Swordsman, huh?

 

[SharkLord]

What about Dark Matter Swordsman, huh?

I'd image Dark Matter Blade would be a pretty unique fighter. Their blade moves independent of their body, they have a pretty decent array f dark projectiles, and they could even sic some smaller Dark Matters on you as minions.

 

[Flyboy]

I love Planet Robobot and Susie could be like Tron Bonne. Just give her MvC3 Tron's level 3 as a final smash too

This is the big brain move. We get a character from the best modern Kirby game, a cool mech fighter with futuristic weapons, a Robobot stage like the Waddle Dee city...what's not to love?

Bandana Dee is a cutie and I love Dark Matter Blade as well, but I think some Robobot rep would be wonderful.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

I'd image Dark Matter Blade would be a pretty unique fighter. Their blade moves independent of their body, they have a pretty decent array f dark projectiles, and they could even sic some smaller Dark Matters on you as minions.

I threw together a moveset long ago that composited Robobot's clone with some other Kirby final bosses to best represent the spectrum of cycloptic nightmare monsters. The end result was essentially another Corrin, which I'd be all for.

Spoiler

 

[DarthEnderX]

What about Dark Matter Swordsman, huh?

What ABOUT him?

 

[Perkilator]

What ABOUT him?

Look at the other posts. They clearly stated their ideas for him.

 

[SharkLord]

I threw together a moveset long ago that composited Robobot's clone with some other Kirby final bosses to best represent the spectrum of cycloptic nightmare monsters. The end result was essentially another Corrin, which I'd be all for.

Spoiler

View attachment 276459

This is honestly really cool. While I'd prefer Bandana Dee and he's the most likely, I would really enjoy this moveset.

 

[SNEKeater]

Mother Brain has two canonical appearances not counting MB. The first Metroid and Super Metroid. Then there's Kraid who's appeared in the same games and was planned for Prime 1.

It would be cool if they bring back Kraid for Prime 4. Even if it doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of story and all, fighting Kraid in first person could be really really cool.

 

[Icedragonadam]

Just in a few days a lot of questions will be answered.

- What will the stage layout look like with 6 or more stages downloaded?
- Who will be buffed or nerfed?
- What will be Min Min's Classic Mode?
- Will the Smash Intern accidentally leak a character/s in the 8.0.0 version?
- Why am I talking like an Action Cartoon narrator?

 

[Aetheri]

It would be cool if they bring back Kraid for Prime 4. Even if it doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of story and all, fighting Kraid in first person could be really really cool.

That would be cool. Also if the Prime Trilogy happens to be a Definitive Edition they could bring him to Prime 1 like was intended as well.

Its about time Kraid makes his official return! #FreeKraid

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Yeah, that's the thing. Kirby at least has more continuity now, which benefits Bandana Dee, and to a lesser extent, Galacta Knight and Magolor. Zelda only really has, what, Impa?

Found a great concept for her.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/dbggw7

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

That would be cool. Also if the Prime Trilogy happens to be a Definitive Edition they could bring him to Prime 1 like was intended as well.

Its about time Kraid makes his official return! #FreeKraid

I've had...awful ideas if Sakurai decided to pull from Metroid for his next joke character.

 

[SKX31]

I find it interesting that between the two, they're not a "normal" polearm wielder. Bandana Dee would be unique in that most small fighters like Kirby and Pichu have pitiful range due to their small size, so a zoner with a small hitbox would be a new archtype. On Ganon's side, the guy would be pretty big and heavy, and I don't think we have a real "big guy" zoner, either. So far, we haven't had a middleweight polearm fighter around the Mario/Marth size range. Strange, isn't it?

I count as a big guy zoner, because in competitive matches the Crown is one of his best tools and due to how his normals work. The high endlag he generally has require K. Rool players to play patiently and get punishes whenever they can. (I just think Rool has one core issue too many, but he's certainly playable and can be effective in the right situation.)*

Beast Ganon as a big guy zoner can work following Rool's example somewhat.

*(I kinda think one could buff his Up-B's horizontal reach slightly and it would help him a lot since his Up-B is one of those core issues - he's extremely susceptible off stage.)

It would be cool if they bring back Kraid for Prime 4. Even if it doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of story and all, fighting Kraid in first person could be really really cool.

Then again, Nintendo's never been too much of a sticker for continuity (Ridley just keeps being rebuilt, no matter how many times he explodes). So I don't think bringing back Kraid would be too much of an issue.

 

[cosmicB]

I mean, we technically broke that with back in Smash 4.

The rule was must have appeared on a Nintendo platform, and no character has broken that yet. If you want to get super technical like counting official Minecraft stuff, not even Master Chief falls into this category anymore. I would say 2B counts, but I'm probably not remembering a skin in some game available on Switch.

 

[Deathcarter]

I think the problem with Kirby newcomers is that they suffer from the same problem as Legend of Zelda that you have all the most prominent characters already in the game leaving you with a bunch of one and done characters. You have Link, Zelda and Ganondorf to Kirby, Metaknight and King Dedede. Kirby doesn't have it as bad since Bandana Dee seems like the obvious 4th choice by comparison but apart from him, everyone else stands out about as well as each other.

Kirby's issue is the same as every franchise outside of Pokemon (the franchise with by far the most potential for popular newcomers) and Fire Emblem (a series who's last two newcomers were DLC which operates under different principles) post-Brawl: unique character "slots" are at a premium and Nintendo/Sakurai simply prioritize new franchises over adding secondary characters from existing franchises. Only Mario characters are able to overcome this handicap and even in their case, Bowser Jr. barely made the deadline for the Smash 4 base roster and Plant actually ended up missing Ultimate's.

 

[SharkLord]

I count as a big guy zoner, because in competitive matches the Crown is one of his best tools and due to how his normals work. The high endlag he generally has require K. Rool players to play patiently and get punishes whenever they can. (I just think Rool has one core issue too many, but he's certainly playable and can be effective in the right situation.)*

Beast Ganon as a big guy zoner can work following Rool's example somewhat.

*(I kinda think one could buff his Up-B's horizontal reach slightly and it would help him a lot since his Up-B is one of those core issues - he's extremely susceptible off stage.)

Oh dangit, completely blanked on K.Rool. What I mean to say is that Ganon would be the first large character with long-reaching normals, like Corrin or the Belmonts. K.Rool is based around his projectile specials, which exempt him from the long-range normals group. His projectiles still have the same general weakness and properties of projectiles, like reflectability or not having anything connecting to the character, while Ganon's trident wouldn't be reflectable and would deal damage a large area in front of him, presumably all at once.
What I meant, in short, was that we'd get Bandana Dee or Ganon before we got a "traditional" spear/polearm user, if that makes sense.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The rule was must have appeared on a Nintendo platform, and no character has broken that yet. If you want to get super technical like counting official Minecraft stuff, not even Master Chief falls into this category anymore. I would say 2B counts, but I'm probably not remembering a skin in some game available on Switch.

It was never even a rule either. The "rule" thing was an old mistranslation.

Sakurai calls it a courtesy, as in "it'd be nice" at best.

Requiring a Nintendo appearance is purely a fanrule and nothing more.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

It was never even a rule either. The "rule" thing was an old mistranslation.

Sakurai calls it a courtesy, as in "it'd be nice" at best.

Requiring a Nintendo appearance is purely a fanrule and nothing more.

I read someone's post who hard-subscribed to this dumb rule to justify why Cloud and Joker were allowed to make it in Smash but Master Chief/2B/whoever weren't.

Like, oh yeah, Sakurai was definitely thinking about how the GBA Chain of Memories game and the dancing spinoff on 3DS were the lynchpins in getting some of the biggest JRPG characters in Smash and not the quality/impact of their games.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Made this a long time ago, but I'd be down for a polearm user.
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE

I would find Bandana Dee to be more likely given the fan demand for him. Also although Ganon can use an spear, his main weapon of use is an trident.

 

[cosmicB]

It was never even a rule either. The "rule" thing was an old mistranslation.

Sakurai calls it a courtesy, as in "it'd be nice" at best.

Requiring a Nintendo appearance is purely a fanrule and nothing more.

Fair enough.

It doesn't change the fact that, whether real or not, it's never been broken. At this point, there's not many characters in standard speculation that even COULD break it. Pretty much Sony properties and that's it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Fair enough.

It doesn't change the fact that, whether real or not, it's never been broken. At this point, there's not many characters in standard speculation that even COULD break it. Pretty much Sony properties and that's it.

Well, yeah. That's true. But yeah, cameos are just as much as any other kind of appearance.

But that's what happens when tons of crossovers are a thing, heh.

Of course, that's Sakurai's thing. He doesn't really care all that much. It's worth taking into account cause trying to get a character is a bit easier sometimes if they already had a Nintendo appearance. Nintendo on the other hand might be looking more for "does it help our business". Persona Q (I forget the full name) is good timing for Joker, but Sakurai would've shrugged at that anyway since it's Persona 5 in itself that matter. That's why the 3DS game is completely unmentioned. It just happened to come out before Smash, not after.

 

[Deathcarter]

There's no hard rule against characters primarily associated with rival which is why we have but note that the former two have had Sakurai explicitly cite outside demand for their inclusion (fan demand in Cloud's and Kojima himself for Snake) and that Joker ended up being an exception in context of the Fighter Pass (the other fighters being a 1st party, a former 1st party, a 3rd party heavily associated with Nintendo, and a console agnostic company known for their arcade glory days). I feel that characters in the vain of 2B or Kiryu if they get into Smash will still be an exception to the rule rather than anything denoting a trend towards 3rd Parties characters with minimal Nintendo presence.

 

[Faso115]

When a character breaks a rule, that character was a mistake

So Joker and Cloud where a mistake.

Smash Ultimate was a mistake.

Videogames were a mistake.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I think the must have Nintendo presence is no hard rule. The only hard rule is that they're videogame characters or are interpretations of characters that originated in a game like Konami's Dracula or Nintendo's Henry Flemming.

Which also opens the door to Creepy Watson come to think of it.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

Crash Bandicoot is one of the biggest names being tossed around regarding Smash speculation and he was the de facto mascot of Sony's Playstation brand and still heavily associated to it this very day despite being a multiplatform franchise for nearly 20 years.

I still see some people say, "It's not gonna happen he's owned by Sony"

Oh Yeah? Then why the hell does the box art say Activision and both N.Sane Trilogy and CTR: Nitro Fueled are already on Nintendo and Xbox?

Not to mention during the direct Sakurai's TV setup he has not just Nintendo consoles, But Playstation's and even a freaking Xbox.

The man does not believe in console wars and plays all games regardless of brand and company.

Which is why I hope Crash Bandicoot and Master Chief make it in so he can further establish that.

 

[Knight Dude]

Not to mention, I don't think Vault Boy will be the last we've heard of WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?! level Mii costumes.

Maybe it's because I don't play Fallout, but I didn't think "Whaaaaaaat" and more "oh, okay, I guess Todd Howard gets something."

Guys guys...

We're probably not going to get another Kirby character anyways.

Let a guy dream tho.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Anyways, Reimu's probably in the best place she's been in a while. Most of her competition's gone (Though Shantae's come back), and ZUN has stated that he wants Touhou in Smash. There was some talk about the doujin leak again in Reimu's support thread; General consensus is that it's gone on for too long to be very likely, but we can't count it out just yet due to the alleged release date. FP7 will probably put it to rest. That being said, a couple trademarks were filed, including an oddly specific one for the Hakurei Shrine, so...

Long story short, she's at least considered a legitimate contender at the moment.

Could you give me a source on that?

 

[N3ON]

Look at it practically though, rule or not, no character without at least some sort of appearance on a Nintendo system seems like they'd be in the cards anyway. You can debate the validity of the rule, but that seems like getting caught in the weeds when you consider the lack of plausible candidates to whom it'd actually apply.

The only characters that are ever broached in conversation with lacking Nintendo appearances are those from Sony and Valve. And neither of those companies are exactly providing frontrunners, to put it mildly. They're rarely even seriously raised without some precipitating ""leak"".

The rule was must have appeared on a Nintendo platform, and no character has broken that yet. If you want to get super technical like counting official Minecraft stuff, not even Master Chief falls into this category anymore. I would say 2B counts, but I'm probably not remembering a skin in some game available on Switch.

2B has a skin in Phantasy Star Online 2. So if Master Chief counts, she does too.

There's no hard rule against characters primarily associated with rival which is why we have but note that the former two have had Sakurai explicitly cite outside demand for their inclusion (fan demand in Cloud's and Kojima himself for Snake) and that Joker ended up being an exception in context of the Fighter Pass (the other fighters being a 1st party, a former 1st party, a 3rd party heavily associated with Nintendo, and a console agnostic company known for their arcade glory days). I feel that characters in the vain of 2B or Kiryu if they get into Smash will still be an exception to the rule rather than anything denoting a trend towards 3rd Parties characters with minimal Nintendo presence.

Sakurai said that of the FF characters, Cloud was the most popular. He didn't say demand for Cloud was overwhelming. The decision to add a FF character predated the decision to add Cloud, popularity was only a factor within the series.

People revise history with Cloud to make it seem like he was a particularly popular choice within the fanbase, when he wasn't.

 

[TechPowah]

Joker ended up being an exception in context of the Fighter Pass (the other fighters being a 1st party, a former 1st party, a 3rd party heavily associated with Nintendo, and a console agnostic company known for their arcade glory days).

I dunno that sounds like they're ALL exceptions to me compared to base roster, except for Byleth
but being the one not-exception is sort of an exception in its own right