Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Iko MattOrr]

I dunno. Magalor seems to take more design cues from Dark Matter then Marx. The eye is a dead giveaway.

And betrayal plots are not exclusive to Marx. That's like saying Taranza becoming a good guy is due to Dedede turning out to be good in Adventure.

I probably used the wrong word, though I did not mean design as visual design of the character, but design as a more general concept, game design, story design and the way how games are structured. Superstar is the game that influenced the series the most, and Marx is one of the major characters of Superstar, he represents the game.

Yes plot twists exist since Kirby's Adventure, but we got betrayals since Marx, and it became almost a constant after that, so much that you will never know if a character is bad or good until the end. In fact, Sectonia betrayed Taranza, who betrayed Sectonia after that... Susie betrayed his father by stealing the controls of Star Dream, Hyness betrayed the mage sisters by sacrifying them against their will, etc.
Marx and the events of Superstar influenced all the subsequent games a lot, even if you don't take gameplay into account.
Magolor's story in Kirby Wii, especially seems like a rewritten "Milky Way Wishes".

I repeat that there's a reason if he's still a fan favorite despite appearing only once.

All of the characters who have been chosen as Dream Friends are important for one reason or another, they have been selected to represent a mainlike game each, and the development team explicitly said that they didn't put the spin-off characters in because they wanted to represent only the main games.
On the other hand, there are some characters who aren't considered Dream Friends who are also important, such as Dark Matter and Chef Kawasaki (yes, he's more important than you think... when you think of food in Kirby, you think of Kawasaki).

Why is everyone fighting over my boy Dee?

I'm just saying that all the Dream Friends are important, and Bandana Waddle Dee is a Dream Friend too... it's just that the other ones aren't any less important than him, at least IMO.

 

[PSIGuy]

Looking at the Switch's best sellers list and upcoming games makes it really easy to imagine a pass that's 100% promotional/evergreen.

Seriously;

Pokémon Sword & Shield: 17.37m
Fire Emblem Three Houses: 2.87m
Ring Fit Adventure: 2.73m
Kirby Star Allies: 2.56m
Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze: 2.25m
ARMS: 2.1m
Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle: 2m
Xenoblade Chronicles 2: 1.73m
Captain Toad: 1.18m
Astral Chain: 1.08

Octopath Traveller: 2m
Minecraft: 1.85m

Metroid Prime 4
Bayonetta 3
Breath of the Wild 2

Bravely Default 2
No More Heroes 3
Shin Megami Tensei V

Some, like Pokémon and Kirby lend themselves to diverse possible choices. Any Gen 8 Pokémon would serve the dual purpose of promoting Pokémon -and- getting the sizable Pokémon fanbase to take another look at Smash (remember that Pokémon is more than just games). I think any of the guest characters from Star Allies could work since the point of Star Allies is bringing back all these old characters. Of course there's third party character options too and you could probably add on any third party company with a lot of Switch presence.

The downside to this I guess is we might legitimately not get another pick like Joker or Banjo. Especially when they could multitask appeasing requests doing marketing by adding Travis Touchdown or Rex or something similar.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I probably used the wrong word, though I did not mean design as visual design of the character, but design as a more general concept, game design, story design and the way how games are structured. Superstar is the game that influenced the series the most, and Marx is one of the major characters of Superstar, he represents the game.

Yes plot twists exist since Kirby's Adventure, but we got betrayals since Marx, and it became almost a constant after that, so much that you will never know if a character is bad or good until the end. In fact, Sectonia betrayed Taranza, who betrayed Sectonia after that... Susie betrayed his father by stealing the controls of Star Dream, Hyness betrayed the mage sisters by sacrifying them against their will, etc.
Marx and the events of Superstar influenced all the subsequent games a lot, even if you don't take gameplay into account.
Magolor's story in Kirby Wii, especially seems like a rewritten "Milky Way Wishes".

I repeat that there's a reason if he's still a fan favorite despite appearing only once.

But... plot twists, alignment shifts and betrayals can't be attributed to just Marx.

They are some of the most common plot points in writing. Your examples are just proof of how common they are!

Even then, if we wanna play that game, then Meta Knight is the first one who did it due to him helping Kirby in Adventure. The first major plot twist is Dedede being good in Adventure.

All of the characters who have been chosen as Dream Friends are important for one reason or another, they have been selected to represent a mainlike game each, and the development team explicitly said that they didn't put the spin-off characters in because they wanted to represent only the main games.
On the other hand, there are some characters who aren't considered Dream Friends who are also important, such as Dark Matter and Chef Kawasaki (yes, he's more important than you think... when you think of food in Kirby, you think of Kawasaki).

I'm not trying to say that Marx isn't a defining character of Super Star. Outside of maybe Dyna Blade, he's a perfect representative for the game.

But he hasn't affected the series as a whole very much.

Using that quote though, its also rather telling that Dedede, Meta Knight and Bandana Waddle Dee aren't representatives of any game in particular. It's almost like those three complete the main Kirby cast (alongside Kirby of course).

 

[NintenRob]

Let's not forget it was also those three who were in the game from the very beginning. Bandana Dee himself being your very first Dream Friend.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Using that quote though, its also rather telling that Dedede, Meta Knight and Bandana Waddle Dee aren't representatives of any game in particular. It's almost like those three complete the main Kirby cast (alongside Kirby of course).

King Dedede and Metaknight do represent a game though... Bandana Waddle Dee is the only exception and the excuse they used is that he represents the Waddle Dee speices because Waddle Dees are in every Kirby game including spinoffs, there's no Kirby game without at least a Waddle Dee.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

King Dedede and Metaknight do represent a game though... Bandana Waddle Dee is the only exception and the excuse they used is that he represents the Waddle Dee speices because Waddle Dees are in every Kirby game including spinoffs, there's no Kirby game without at least a Waddle Dee.

I mean, if he's the only one who doesn't represent a game, then him being a dream friend is special treatment then, right? The fact that he was advertised right alongside Dedede and Meta Knight kinda proves they think of them as a complete group.

 

[SharkLord]

Using that quote though, its also rather telling that Dedede, Meta Knight and Bandana Waddle Dee aren't representatives of any game in particular. It's almost like those three complete the main Kirby cast (alongside Kirby of course).

Let's not forget it was also those three who were in the game from the very beginning. Bandana Dee himself being your very first Dream Friend.

I think this best explains my train of thought. In Star Allies, he was part of the base game Dream Friends, alongside Meta Knight and Dedede. They were considered "basic" enough to be part of the base game, while all other Dream Friends added in updates were representing one certain game. Daroach, Magolor, and Gooey would've been part of the game at launch if they were considered a general part of Kirby and not a representative of one game in particular, but they're still associated with a single game and were held off until later.

King Dedede and Metaknight do represent a game though... Bandana Waddle Dee is the only exception and the excuse they used is that he represents the Waddle Dee speices because Waddle Dees are in every Kirby game including spinoffs, there's no Kirby game without at least a Waddle Dee.

Honestly, that only works in favor of BWD. Kirby games have always had Waddle Dees, therefore, a Waddle Dee would be a good representative of the franchise in Smash now that we have the main three.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I mean it's pretty clear that this discussion stems solely from the fact that Adeleine isn't seen as a very likely contender for Kirby reps because Bandana Dee is such a bigger character in the context of the series.

I love Adeleine and Marx and Magolor and I'd love to see them in Smash, but it's blatantly obvious, from the role he has in the games, to his popularity, that Bandana Dee is first in line if the series gets a fourth rep in Smash. To rail against that is wishful thinking, and to do so with such flimsy arguments just screams "I won't settle for any other conclusion".

 

[JCKirbs]

Using that quote though, its also rather telling that Dedede, Meta Knight and Bandana Waddle Dee aren't representatives of any game in particular. It's almost like those three complete the main Kirby cast (alongside Kirby of course).

That's basically what I'm getting at with Bandana Dee. He was part of the first set of Dream Friends since they all aren't tied to a specific game.
Every last one of the Dream Friends that followed were specifically tied to one or two games, and while they were important in their own respective games, they were practically dropped for the following games in favor of a different plot-line.

Bandana Dee has been present through several plot-lines, specifically in Modern Kirby. Granted, his roles varied between each game but he always made a genuine appearance in one way or the other. It's clear that HAL found a greater use for him, considering his true friendship with Kirby.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

I wouldn't mind Bandana Dee, But if we were to get a 4th Kirby character, My personal choice would have to be "Rick the Hamster"

He's my favorite Kirby character and he's "Plumpy".

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I mean, if he's the only one who doesn't represent a game, then him being a dream friend is special treatment then, right? The fact that he was advertised right alongside Dedede and Meta Knight kinda proves they think of them as a complete group.

To me it seems that the special treatment was recieved by the additional DLC characters instead. They got better movesets, more special stuff, exclusive levels, customized background and more, in fact, Bandana Waddle Dee, Metaknight and King Dedede were updated with the last DLC because their moveset felt outdated compared to the one of the other Dream Friends.

I mean it's pretty clear that this discussion stems solely from the fact that Adeleine isn't seen as a very likely contender for Kirby reps because Bandana Dee is such a bigger character in the context of the series.

I love Adeleine and Marx and Magolor and I'd love to see them in Smash, but it's blatantly obvious, from the role he has in the games, to his popularity, that Bandana Dee is first in line if the series gets a fourth rep in Smash. To rail against that is wishful thinking, and to do so with such flimsy arguments just screams "I won't settle for any other conclusion".

No, I did not even mention her on purpose. It's just that I'm annoyed that everyone thinks that Bandana Waddle Dee is the only possible Kirby character when he's not. And again, this is not necessarily because of Adeleine, it's in general. There are a lot of interesting characters from the Kirby series that are being ignored because people don't accept any discussion about Kirby characters who aren't Bandana Waddle Dee.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's clear that HAL found a greater use for him, considering his true friendship with Kirby.

That is one thing that Bandana Waddle Dee does that no other character provides. A recurring genuine buddy for Kirby.

Dedede is an ally and a friend, but he's more of a rival who doesn't really like Kirby.

Meta Knight is an ally and friend, but he's more of a mentor.

Bandana Waddle Dee is the only main character who hangs out with Kirby, because he likes him.

We've had other characters do this in the past like the animal friends, but they got phased out for some reason. Bandana Waddle Dee is still around.

To me it seems that the special treatment was recieved by the additional DLC characters instead. They got better movesets, more special stuff, exclusive levels, customized background and more, in fact, Bandana Waddle Dee, Metaknight and King Dedede were updated with the last DLC because their moveset felt outdated compared to the one of the other Dream Friends.

That seems more like unintentional power creep as opposed to special treatment.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm not trying to say that Marx isn't a defining character of Super Star. Outside of maybe Dyna Blade, he's a perfect representative for the game.

But he hasn't affected the series as a whole very much.

To be fair, Marx solidified the trend of Soul bosses despite not being the first of them (That goes to Drawcia but her Soul is fought right afterwards, not as a True Arena bonus) and Soul bosses re-use Marx's cutter attacks

To me it seems that the special treatment was recieved by the additional DLC characters instead. They got better movesets, more special stuff, exclusive levels, customized background and more, in fact, Bandana Waddle Dee, Metaknight and King Dedede were updated with the last DLC because their moveset felt outdated compared to the one of the other Dream Friends.

The reason for that is because the Dream Friends don't have copy abilities that they could just re-use like Dedede, Meta Knight and Bandana Dee. Bandana Dee's especially notable there because the Spear ability doesn't appear in Star Allies outside of him

 

[JCKirbs]

That seems more like unintentional power creep as opposed to special treatment.

I think it's even because of this "power creep" that makes nowadays so "Bandana Dee vs. The World" like.

People saw potential in the excess Dream Friends, and all of a sudden they're a perfect fit for Smash. Their level of significance, importance, or relevance compared to someone like Bandana Dee doesn't matter because they're "cooler" than him.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting other Kirby characters, but sometimes I feel that they're specifically brought up to bring someone like Bandana Dee to a lower level as if everything he has going for him means little to nothing.

I mean, how many times are characters like Marx brought up in their own right, instead of being used to tear Bandana Dee down?

That's just me, though.

 

[AEMehr]

I'd like to dispel the myth that Spring Man's strong prevelance was only used in promotional material and on the box. A lot of the stuff I'm talking about is unlockable artwork and lore within the game. These pictures were designed to flesh out the ARMS universe rather than promote the game. I'd also like to throw out there that Spring Man is pivotal to that world considering "Spring Man" is a title that is passed down implying that there is importance to the name. This is something Yabuki stated himself.

I'm not arguing that Spring Man deserved to be in Smash and Min Min didn't. I'm arguing that Spring Man is a significantly important character in the ARMS universe and not just the guy they put on the box/ads. This has nothing to do with Smash, I'm just sick of hearing the same misinformation that theres nothing special about Spring Man in the ARMS universe.

Yes I am familiar with the gallery. But PLAYING the game and READING about the game are two different things. The gallery calls him a hero a couple times, but that's fluff beyond what the game is actually presenting you. The 15 fighters lead their own journey, very few having any real personal connection among each other aside from Coyle having direct connections with a fifth of the cast. I mean sure they display he saved a kid's life from getting hit by a car, but Ninjara also saves a kid from getting crushed by a large potted plant. The Move Out photograph depicts Byte & Barq, Mechanica, Helix, Spring Tron, and Headlocke as the "ARMS Rangers" in a very heroic looking setting. I don't think it's within anybody's character to let harm befall anyone in this game, except maybe for Coyle if it's coming to Brass specifically.

Mr. Yabuki's statement on expanding the lore in the comic is something I literally mentioned. But that information itself isn't a part of the game's universe until it's finished and released. It's been long since the free comic book day pages were released, things so who really knows if that information will remain true when or if it is ever completed?

It's not a myth that Spring Man holds strong prevalence because they put him on the box. It's not a myth that he's not a major character in the game either, but EVERY character is a major character. They all have their own things going on. That's literally the point of an ensemble cast.
He's one of 15. Whether he's the third or the fourteenth to hold the mantle is irrelevant to the game itself, because all of the characters have situations of varying importance the drive their actions. Master Mummy's missing family, the discovery of Misango's tribe, Mechanica's journey to prove herself as a master technician (even potentially being an assistant for Dr. Coyle), etc.~

All of the characters are special, whether he holds any significance beyond that remains to be seen when we have something palpable to argue it.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

So having a nice and unique gameplay, or more content, is now some sort of "power creep", and it's somehow a bad thing? I don't understand.

I think it's even because of this "power creep" that makes nowadays so "Bandana Dee vs. The World" like.

People saw potential in the excess Dream Friends, and all of a sudden they're a perfect fit for Smash. Their level of significance, importance, or relevance compared to someone like Bandana Dee doesn't matter because they're "cooler" than him.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting other Kirby characters, but sometimes I feel that they're specifically brought up to bring someone like Bandana Dee to a lower level as if everything he has going for him means little to nothing.

I mean, how many times are characters like Marx brought up in their own right, instead of being used to tear Bandana Dee down?

That's just me, though.

Trust me, it happens more often that Bandana Dee is used to tear down other characters than the other way. Each time I mention other Kirby characters as possible options the reaction is always "but they are one offs, unimportant, blah blah".
So it would be nice if that practice would stop first.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

It shouldn't be that hard to see that Bandana Dee has become the Kirby cast's "Sixth Ranger", as it were.

He's been a recurring main character for several games straight at this point and has been playable in a good chunk of them. He's newer than the other three, but he's definitely a mainstay.

 

[JCKirbs]

So having a nice and unique gameplay, or more content, is now some sort of "power creep", and it's somehow a bad thing? I don't understand.



Trust me, it happens more often that Bandana Dee is used to tear down other characters than the other way. Each time I mention other Kirby characters as possible options the reaction is always "but they are one offs, unimportant, blah blah".
So it would be nice if that practice would stop first.

That's the thing, though.

When you think about the bigger picture, should someone like Bandana Dee actually be shoved aside for someone like Daroach, who has only played a significant role in Squeak Squad?
Or any of the other Dream Friends who played significant roles, but only in specific games while Bandana Dee has established himself as more than just a one and practically done?

I don't necessarily condone a thorough tearing down of any character, and while you have the ability to root for any character you like, I don't exactly see what (particularly subjective) arguments make any other Kirby character as much as a "next in line" choice as Bandana Dee aside from "they look cooler" and "moveset potential", besides maybe one or two exceptions.

 

[NintenRob]

To me, having another Dream Friend before Bandana Dee, would be like if Bandana Dee himself got in before King Dedede.


Or if Zant got in before Ganondorf.

Rosalina before Luigi

 

[Iko MattOrr]

That's the thing, though.

When you think about the bigger picture, should someone like Bandana Dee actually be shoved aside for someone like Daroach, who has only played a significant role in Squeak Squad?
Or any of the other Dream Friends who played significant roles, but only in specific games while Bandana Dee has established himself as more than just a one and practically done?

I don't necessarily condone a thorough tearing down of any character, and while you have the ability to root for any character you like, I don't exactly see what (particularly subjective) arguments make any other Kirby character as much as a "next in line" choice as Bandana Dee aside from "they look cooler" and "moveset potential", besides maybe one or two exceptions.

Piranha Plant can happen. Was it next in line? No, Waluigi was, thouth Piranha Plant happend.

Three Mage Sisters could be chosen over Bandana Dee because they're from the latest game, just like Fire Emblem and Pokèmon characters usually are chosen
Magolor could be chosen over Bandana Dee because it's Kumazaki's favorite character
Adeleine could be chosen over Bandana Dee because there are rumors that Sakurai hates her and Sakurai wants to debunk those rumors
Rick, Kine and Coo could be chosen over Bandana Dee because they were main characters in two mainline classic games
Daroach could be chosen over Bandana Dee because they decided to surprise the fans and take the one that nobody would expect
Dark Meta Knight could be chosen over Bandana Dee because maybe Sakurai found a way to make a unique playstyle out of his mirrors gimmick

etc etc etc...

It's not like Bandana Waddle Dee is the only option, you know that Sakurai likes to break the patterns and be unpredictable.
Look at how Spring Man being the cover boy did mean nothing and they went with Min Min instead, and the other option was Ninjara (not even Ribbon Girl, and not Max Brass nor Dr Coyle that were the two characters who were seen as more important than the others for story reasons).
Min Min was probably chosen out of popularity (even if they say it was because of Yabuki), so maybe they will choose Bandana Waddle Dee out of popularity too, but people should realize that it's not the only possible outcome, and popularity is not the only factor, nor is the fact that he appeared in a couple more games than your average Kirby character.

 

[osby]

Adeleine could be chosen over Bandana Dee because there are rumors that Sakurai hates her and Sakurai wants to debunk those rumors

I've never heard of any rumors like that. And even if there were and Sakurai could pick the DLC characters on his own, why would he care about proving a few trolls wrong? People claim that Sakurai hates their faves all the time, anyway.

No offense but that's a bigger reach than the ARMS cast combined.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I've never heard of any rumors like that. And even if there were and Sakurai could pick the DLC characters on his own, why would he care about proving a few trolls wrong? Also, people claim that Sakurai hates their fave all the time.

No offense but that's a bigger reach than the ARMS cast combined.

It's actually a rumor that existed in the Kirby fanbase and sometimes it's still brought up nowasays.
I personally don't believe in that.

Apparently Sakurai said that he didn't want human characters in the Kirby anime when it was still in production, and people interpreted it as "no Adeleine" when IMO it was just that he didn't want the Kirby anime to be one of those cliche anime where the human kid finds the characters of the game and they live in the real world like Sonic X and similars.

 

[TechPowah]

You are trying REEEAAAALLLL hard to dunk on Bandana Dee ngl

 

[RaintheCriminalWhirlwind]

Um, are we forgetting about a Bugsnax rep?

 

[JCKirbs]

Piranha Plant can happen. Was it next in line? No, Waluigi was, thouth Piranha Plant happend.

Three Mage Sisters could be chosen over Bandana Dee because they're from the latest game, just like Fire Emblem and Pokèmon characters usually are chosen
Magolor could be chosen over Bandana Dee because it's Kumazaki's favorite character
Adeleine could be chosen over Bandana Dee because there are rumors that Sakurai hates her and Sakurai wants to debunk those rumors
Rick, Kine and Coo could be chosen over Bandana Dee because they were main characters in two mainline classic games
Daroach could be chosen over Bandana Dee because they decided to surprise the fans and take the one that nobody would expect
Dark Meta Knight could be chosen over Bandana Dee because maybe Sakurai found a way to make a unique playstyle out of his mirrors gimmick

etc etc etc...

It's not like Bandana Waddle Dee is the only option, you know that Sakurai likes to break the patterns and be unpredictable.
Look at how Spring Man being the cover boy did mean nothing and they went with Min Min instead, and the other option was Ninjara (not even Ribbon Girl, and not Max Brass nor Dr Coyle that were the two characters who were seen as more important than the others for story reasons).
Min Min was probably chosen out of popularity (even if they say it was because of Yabuki), so maybe they will choose Bandana Waddle Dee out of popularity too, but people should realize that it's not the only possible outcome, and popularity is not the only factor, nor is the fact that he appeared in a couple more games than your average Kirby character.

Plant was pretty unexpected, but he was chosen because Sakurai knew that people would still recognize Plant, so he was free to make him the unexpected non-hero nor main villain character that he wanted.

The ARMS character was a complete toss-up for a franchise that only got started 2 years ago, so again they could effectively use the “everyone’s the main character” tactic to choose any character they wanted, since they (theoretically) intentionally made no strides to make any character(s) in particular stand out from the rest of the cast (besides Max and Coyle maybe, but they’re literally just final bosses with more screen-time because of that).

In comparison, it would personally feel like a waste if a Kirby character specifically was only included for a temporary surprise factor, especially in comparison to one who was rallied for quite some time, along with being more recognizable.
Kirby is not like Pokemon or Fire Emblem that have their main characters swapped out for every game.
There’s much more consistency with who could/should be recognized more prominently in a game like Smash.

Therefore, I definitely think that popularity/notability will factor into the choice of DLC characters from a franchise like Kirby.

 

[ZelDan]

Despite liking the Kirby franchise I can't say I have that much interest in seeing another rep from it.

If there had to be another rep though I'd want it to be either Bandana Waddle Dee or Dark Matter.

 

[Shroob]

It just dawned on me that after Min Min, we'll have 2 empty spaces left on the bottom row of the CSS, assuming all bought DLC characters + all 3 mii fighters.


This means that starting with FP9, Jigglypuff will finally be pushed back up to be with the Original 12(+Dark Samus).

 

[N3ON]

Despite liking the Kirby franchise I can't say I have that much interest in seeing another rep from it.

You seem to share this sentiment with Sakurai.

People can go on about Bandana Dee all they want, and it's true he's obviously next in line if you take an objective look at the series. But this is one series Sakurai doesn't look at objectively. And despite being a popular character for a while now, Sakurai's shown absolutely zero interest in even acknowledging the demand with a role above the most basic possible. Even with the ballot.

It's true he's not calling the shots currently, but I also don't see Nintendo in a rush to put BWD in either.

It just dawned on me that after Min Min, we'll have 2 empty spaces left on the bottom row of the CSS, assuming all bought DLC characters + all 3 mii fighters.


This means that starting with FP9, Jigglypuff will finally be pushed back up to be with the Original 12(+Dark Samus).

I just hope the final roster isn't an ugly shape like the last one was. Though the CSS is already pretty messed up just by the unintuitive ordering.

 

[Shroob]

You seem to share this sentiment with Sakurai.

People can go on about Bandana Dee all they want, and it's true he's obviously next in line if you take an objective look at the series. But this is one series Sakurai doesn't look at objectively. And despite being a popular character for a while now, Sakurai's shown absolutely zero interest in even acknowledging the demand with a role above the most basic possible. Even with the ballot.

It's true he's not calling the shots currently, but I also don't see Nintendo in a rush to put BWD in either.


I just hope the final roster isn't an ugly shape like the last one was. Though the CSS is already pretty messed up just by the unintuitive ordering.

Depends on if we get those final 4 World of Light spots used.

If we do, that'd put us at 90 characters + random, making a perfect 13x7 Rectangle.


Otherwise, the bottom row is going to have a lot of empty space.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I think it's a bit hopeful to think that every Dream Friend is in the running to get in Smash, outside of Star Allies none of them have featured in more than two mainline games, and most of them were in just one game. Kirby has a pretty clear hierarchy and constantly moves on from side characters and villains, that's why it's such a big advantage for Bandana Dee to be a reoccuring character, he's the only one who's managed to become that since the original trio. Characters becoming Dream Friends does not guarantee their future in the series either, Star Allies was very much focused on fan service (perhaps to make up for how lackluster the actual game is), but it's likely to be something that they leave behind when they move into future games, as they've done with so many modes in the series.

I personally don't find a Kirby newcomer very likely for FP2, there's some demand for it, but not so much that it stands out as a really popular request, and at present Nintendo don't have much to gain from pushing the series compared to other options (Pokémon, Xenoblade, Zelda). However, if we were to get one, I'm 90% certain it'd be Bandana Dee, he beats every other potential Kirby character in just about every regard except moveset potential, and even that is subjective.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I may not inherently support Bandana Dee, but he objectively should have been added back in 4. Problem is, he wasn't, not even in the context of appearances. This was one of the many missteps for that game's roster.

However, I don't think this continued "next-in-line" style of thinking is healthy either. There's been a lot of support for other characters within the franchise that has propped up in the years after Smash 4, and ignoring that progression feels about as meaningless as the minimal callbacks Kirby gets to non-Sakurai games in Smash.

Need I remind everyone that Rosalina got in over Toad? Objectivity clearly doesn't mean much when the director brushes away logic for his own purposes.

 

[N3ON]

I may not inherently support Bandana Dee, but he objectively should have been added back in 4. Problem is, he wasn't, not even in the context of appearances. This was one of the many missteps for that game's roster.

However, I don't think this continued "next-in-line" style of thinking is healthy either. There's been a lot of support for other characters within the franchise that has propped up in the years after Smash 4, and ignoring that progression feels about as meaningless as the minimal callbacks Kirby gets to non-Sakurai games in Smash.

I would be reluctant to categorize any other Kirby character as having a lot of popularity, at least for a sustained period of time. Around when he was added to Star Allies, Marx got popular, but then that faded quickly as well. Magolor has popularity in Japan, but besides being unilateral, it's declined greatly from what it was, and never challenged Bandana Dee's. It's also hindered by his no-longer-recent, non-Sakurai game.

So if the progression are intermittent spikes, I'm not sure that's particularly meaningful. Zelda also has intermittent spikes, and I'd be surprised if those lead to anything either.

Need I remind everyone that Rosalina got in over Toad? Objectivity clearly doesn't mean much when the director brushes away logic for his own purposes.

That's kind of my point.

 

[JCKirbs]

I think it's a bit hopeful to think that every Dream Friend is in the running to get in Smash, outside of Star Allies none of them have featured in more than two mainline games, and most of them were in just one game. Kirby has a pretty clear hierarchy and constantly moves on from side characters and villains, that's why it's such a big advantage for Bandana Dee to be a reoccuring character, he's the only one who's managed to become that since the original trio. Characters becoming Dream Friends does not guarantee their future in the series either, Star Allies was very much focused on fan service (perhaps to make up for how lackluster the actual game is), but it's likely to be something that they leave behind when they move into future games, as they've done with so many modes in the series.

I personally don't find a Kirby newcomer very likely for FP2, there's some demand for it, but not so much that it stands out as a really popular request, and at present Nintendo don't have much to gain from pushing the series compared to other options (Pokémon, Xenoblade, Zelda). However, if we were to get one, I'm 90% certain it'd be Bandana Dee, he beats every other potential Kirby character in just about every regard except moveset potential, and even that is subjective.

No one is ever a definite lock, so I’d even say that the stars basically have to align in exactly the right way in in order for a Kirby rep to even be considered at this point.

Fire Emblem got it right twice with conveniently timed releases for certain entires into the franchise, and it helps that each game tells a new tale.

Best case scenario would involve Nintendo wanting to promote the next Kirby game since it’ll apparently be the “pinnacle of the series”. If Bandana Dee has a playable role, that would probably encourage them to give him a spot in Smash for promotional purposes along with a stage, music, and spirits coming from that game as well (and maybe other bits of Modern Kirby sprinkled in).

It’s a long shot, but who knows?
Bandana Dee hasn’t been that shy of a playable position before.

I may not inherently support Bandana Dee, but he objectively should have been added back in 4. Problem is, he wasn't, not even in the context of appearances. This was one of the many missteps for that game's roster.

However, I don't think this continued "next-in-line" style of thinking is healthy either. There's been a lot of support for other characters within the franchise that has propped up in the years after Smash 4, and ignoring that progression feels about as meaningless as the minimal callbacks Kirby gets to non-Sakurai games in Smash.

Need I remind everyone that Rosalina got in over Toad? Objectivity clearly doesn't mean much when the director brushes away logic for his own purposes.

Honestly, if it wasn’t for Star Allies and people posting the Dream Friends’ fresh, new renders everywhere, I couldn’t imagine how much support some characters would get based on their minimal amount of notability in the franchise nowadays.
Granted, they still had important roles within their respective games.

Also, popularity is key.
If you asked people if they wanted Rosalina in Smash over Toad, who would be there to say no?
I’ve never once heard an uprising for Toad in Smash, nor as a popular character in general.
Therefore, I’m not surprised that Sakurai capitalized on Rosalina’s ongoing popularity within the Mario franchise.

On the other hand, Bandana Dee started to consistently have both popularity and notability on his side instead of one or the other as time went on.

 

[NeonBurrito]

popularity is not the only factor, nor is the fact that he appeared in a couple more games than your average Kirby character.

Bandana Waddle Dee has appeared in:

• Super Star Ultra
• Return to Dream Land
• Triple Deluxe
• Rainbow Curse
• Planet Robobot
• Team Kirby Clash Deluxe
• Battle Royale
• Star Allies
• Super Kirby Clash
• Cameo / minor appearances in Super Star, Mass Attack, and Kirby's Dream Collection

Adeleine (using her as an example because you mentioned her) on the other hand, has made an appearance in:

• Crystal Shards
• Star Allies
• Cameo / minor appearances in Planet Robobot and Super Kirby Clash

If appearing in almost every single Kirby game in the past decade when he only started making major appearances in 2008 is what you consider only "a couple more games than your average Kirby character", then I have zero clue what you think qualifies as being a main character in a series.
I'm not trying to say that Bandana Waddle Dee would have to be the Kirby pick or that he's the best one or whatever, but you're really trying to downplay his existence here. There's a reason why HAL chose to put him in the spotlight for their 40th Anniversary poster, alongside the other three core characters of the series.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Bandana Waddle Dee has appeared in:

• Super Star Ultra
• Return to Dream Land
• Triple Deluxe
• Rainbow Curse
• Planet Robobot
• Team Kirby Clash Deluxe
• Battle Royale
• Star Allies
• Super Kirby Clash
• Cameo / minor appearances in Super Star, Mass Attack, and Kirby's Dream Collection

Adeleine (using her as an example because you mentioned her) on the other hand, has made an appearance in:

• Crystal Shards
• Star Allies
• Cameo / minor appearances in Planet Robobot and Super Kirby Clash

If appearing in almost every single Kirby game in the past decade when he only started making major appearances in 2008 is what you consider only "a couple more games than your average Kirby character", then I have zero clue what you think qualifies as being a main character in a series.
I'm not trying to say that Bandana Waddle Dee would have to be the Kirby pick or that he's the best one or whatever, but you're really trying to downplay his existence here. There's a reason why HAL chose to put him in the spotlight for their 40th Anniversary poster, alongside the other three core characters of the series.

Here we go again with the appearance lists fight.

Let's make another example:

• Kirby's Dream Land 2, main characters, playable if you ride them
• Kirby's Dream Land 3, main characters, playable if you ride them
• Kirby Star Stacker, the blocks in the main gameplay, in-game artworks
• Kirby Super Star Stacker, the blocks in the main gameplay, in-game artworks
• Kirby 64, stone transformation that's actually useful for finding collectables (you have to use the animal's special skills)
• Canvas Curse, cameos in the Paint Panic minigame
• Mass Attack, cameo in the gameover screen of Kirby Quest
• Return to Dream Land, cameo as stone transformation
• Dream Collection, cameo as stone transformation
• Triple Deluxe, they attack you in one stage of Kirby Fighters, that's named after one of the animals... they also have keychains in the game
• Robobot: stone cameo and stickers
• Team Kirby Clash Deluxe, cameo in the city
• Battle Royale, cameo in the crowd
• Star Allies, playable Dream Friends and other content
• Super Kirby Clash, cameo in the city and sticker
• Rainbow Curse, cameo during the vehichle transformations

Bonus:

• Relatively important characte in the Kirby anime
• Rick appears in a Satellaview game

So, by this logic, the Kirby newcomer is Rick, Kine and Coo, it definitely appeared more in the series than even Bandana Dee, and was main character in at least 4 games (if we count Star Stackers blocks as main role), two of which are main series games. Bandana dee was (arguably) a main character only in one of the main series games where he was in, despite being in a total of 4, and in the 3DS ones he doesn't even appear in the cutscenes, since he's not part of the story.

Too easy with Adeleine who's been away for almost 20 years for wathever reason eh? Especially ignoring that she was Ado in KDL3 and lore doesn't matter, same person lore-wise or not, the character was the same.

Talking of Kirby in the Smash community is disgusting, the bias for bandana dee is just ridicolous.

 

[Vintage Creep]

Why has it become fashionable to take a dump on the ballot?
Because a of a few meme picks?

Because literally only my opinion matters and democratic vote is totally useless since Sakurai should ask myself directly.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Here we go again with the appearance lists fight.

Let's make another example:

• Kirby's Dream Land 2, main characters, playable if you ride them
• Kirby's Dream Land 3, main characters, playable if you ride them
• Kirby Star Stacker, the blocks in the main gameplay, in-game artworks
• Kirby Super Star Stacker, the blocks in the main gameplay, in-game artworks
• Kirby 64, stone transformation that's actually useful for finding collectables (you have to use the animal's special skills)
• Canvas Curse, cameos in the Paint Panic minigame
• Mass Attack, cameo in the gameover screen of Kirby Quest
• Return to Dream Land, cameo as stone transformation
• Dream Collection, cameo as stone transformation
• Triple Deluxe, they attack you in one stage of Kirby Fighters, that's named after one of the animals... they also have keychains in the game
• Robobot: stone cameo and stickers
• Team Kirby Clash Deluxe, cameo in the city
• Battle Royale, cameo in the crowd
• Star Allies, playable Dream Friends and other content
• Super Kirby Clash, cameo in the city and sticker
• Rainbow Curse, cameo during the vehichle transformations

Bonus:

• Relatively important characte in the Kirby anime
• Rick appears in a Satellaview game

So, by this logic, the Kirby newcomer is Rick, Kine and Coo, it definitely appeared more in the series than even Bandana Dee, and was main character in at least 4 games (if we count Star Stackers blocks as main role), two of which are main series games. Bandana dee was (arguably) a main character only in one of the main series games where he was in, despite being in a total of 4, and in the 3DS ones he doesn't even appear in the cutscenes, since he's not part of the story.

Too easy with Adeleine who's been away for almost 20 years for wathever reason eh? Especially ignoring that she was Ado in KDL3 and lore doesn't matter, same person lore-wise or not, the character was the same.

Talking of Kirby in the Smash community is disgusting, the bias for bandana dee is just ridicolous.

Call me naive, but I don't see what's disgusting about that.

And it's not a clean comparison either. Rick, Kine & Coo were (unfortunately) left at the side of the road in the games following the SNES era, first for combination powers in 64, then from all games onward taking on Kirby Super Star's control mechanics making companion to change up powers redundant. It's only natural that a character is forgotten over time, I've been campaigning for Krystal for ages so I should know.

 

[NeonBurrito]

Here we go again with the appearance lists fight.

Let's make another example:

• Kirby's Dream Land 2, main characters, playable if you ride them
• Kirby's Dream Land 3, main characters, playable if you ride them
• Kirby Star Stacker, the blocks in the main gameplay, in-game artworks
• Kirby Super Star Stacker, the blocks in the main gameplay, in-game artworks
• Kirby 64, stone transformation that's actually useful for finding collectables (you have to use the animal's special skills)
• Canvas Curse, cameos in the Paint Panic minigame
• Mass Attack, cameo in the gameover screen of Kirby Quest
• Return to Dream Land, cameo as stone transformation
• Dream Collection, cameo as stone transformation
• Triple Deluxe, they attack you in one stage of Kirby Fighters, that's named after one of the animals... they also have keychains in the game
• Robobot: stone cameo and stickers
• Team Kirby Clash Deluxe, cameo in the city
• Battle Royale, cameo in the crowd
• Star Allies, playable Dream Friends and other content
• Super Kirby Clash, cameo in the city and sticker
• Rainbow Curse, cameo during the vehichle transformations

Bonus:

• Relatively important characte in the Kirby anime
• Rick appears in a Satellaview game

So, by this logic, the Kirby newcomer is Rick, Kine and Coo, it definitely appeared more in the series than even Bandana Dee, and was main character in at least 4 games (if we count Star Stackers blocks as main role), two of which are main series games. Bandana dee was (arguably) a main character only in one of the main series games where he was in, despite being in a total of 4, and in the 3DS ones he doesn't even appear in the cutscenes, since he's not part of the story.

Too easy with Adeleine who's been away for almost 20 years for wathever reason eh? Especially ignoring that she was Ado in KDL3 and lore doesn't matter, same person lore-wise or not, the character was the same.

You're artificially stretching your list out with minor appearances and cameos, not any sort of major role. Stone transformations aren't prominent appearances, in the same way that Megaton Punch is not a prominent appearance for Bandana Waddle Dee in Kirby Super Star and a sticker for Adeleine isn't a prominent appearance in Robobot. if you boil the Animal Friends list down to actual roles that aren't just cameos, you get something like:

• Dream Land 2
• Dream Land 3
• Crystal Shards (if you really want to count the one Crystal Shard that requires you to use Stone Rick)
• Super Stacker
• Super Star Stacker
• Star Allies

It's a list that fares better for sure, but it's still less than Bandana Waddle Dee's, especially considering they started getting spotlight way back in '95.

Talking of Kirby in the Smash community is disgusting, the bias for bandana dee is just ridicolous.

Have you ever considered that maybe just people like Bandana Waddle Dee? When a character shows up often in a series, people tend to grow fond of that character. It isn't "bias" as much as it is people just wanting to support a character they like.

 

[Shroob]

Here we go again with the appearance lists fight.

Let's make another example:

• Kirby's Dream Land 2, main characters, playable if you ride them
• Kirby's Dream Land 3, main characters, playable if you ride them
• Kirby Star Stacker, the blocks in the main gameplay, in-game artworks
• Kirby Super Star Stacker, the blocks in the main gameplay, in-game artworks
• Kirby 64, stone transformation that's actually useful for finding collectables (you have to use the animal's special skills)
• Canvas Curse, cameos in the Paint Panic minigame
• Mass Attack, cameo in the gameover screen of Kirby Quest
• Return to Dream Land, cameo as stone transformation
• Dream Collection, cameo as stone transformation
• Triple Deluxe, they attack you in one stage of Kirby Fighters, that's named after one of the animals... they also have keychains in the game
• Robobot: stone cameo and stickers
• Team Kirby Clash Deluxe, cameo in the city
• Battle Royale, cameo in the crowd
• Star Allies, playable Dream Friends and other content
• Super Kirby Clash, cameo in the city and sticker
• Rainbow Curse, cameo during the vehichle transformations

Bonus:

• Relatively important characte in the Kirby anime
• Rick appears in a Satellaview game

So, by this logic, the Kirby newcomer is Rick, Kine and Coo, it definitely appeared more in the series than even Bandana Dee, and was main character in at least 4 games (if we count Star Stackers blocks as main role), two of which are main series games. Bandana dee was (arguably) a main character only in one of the main series games where he was in, despite being in a total of 4, and in the 3DS ones he doesn't even appear in the cutscenes, since he's not part of the story.

Too easy with Adeleine who's been away for almost 20 years for wathever reason eh? Especially ignoring that she was Ado in KDL3 and lore doesn't matter, same person lore-wise or not, the character was the same.

Talking of Kirby in the Smash community is disgusting, the bias for bandana dee is just ridicolous.

Disgusting is a bit of a strong word.


At the end of the day, it boils down to legacy versus recency.


Adeleine for example, has legacy, but after Crystal Shards, she was more or less dropped from existing outside of cameos until Star Allies.

Same can be said of the animal buddies. After Kirby 3, their roles were relegated to cameos more or less, until Star Allies.



Likewise, over the last ten or so years(Holy **** Return to Dreamland is almost a ten year old game now?), Bandanna Dee has been pushed as basically being the 4th wheel of the "group", while also taking up the supporting role that a character like Adeleine used to fulfill in mainline games where Dee isn't playable. Comparing Dee's role in games like Triple Deluxe or Robobot to how Adeleine worked in 64, the comparisons are very obvious.


There's 'bias', because frankly, the Kirby team wants the fanbase to consider Bandanna Dee to be important, that's why they put him in pretty much everything nowadays, be it in a playable role or supporting role.



This conversation seems hilariously overtly hostile for no reason at all.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

You're artificially stretching your list out with minor appearances and cameos, not any sort of major role. Stone transformations aren't prominent appearances, in the same way that Megaton Punch is not a prominent appearance for Bandana Waddle Dee in Kirby Super Star and a sticker for Adeleine isn't a prominent appearance in Robobot. if you boil the Animal Friends list down to actual roles that aren't just cameos, you get something like:

• Dream Land 2
• Dream Land 3
• Crystal Shards (if you really want to count the one Crystal Shard that requires you to use Stone Rick)
• Super Stacker
• Super Star Stacker
• Star Allies

It's a list that fares better for sure, but it's still less than Bandana Waddle Dee's, especially considering they started getting spotlight way back in '95.

I'm pretty sure that at least Kirby Fighters Deluxe (which I forgot) shouldd be added to the list since they have a whole stage dedicated to them. Maybe Triple Deluxe too if you count the same stage in the minigame version of the same game.

Have you ever considered that maybe just people like Bandana Waddle Dee? When a character shows up often in a series, people tend to grow fond of that character. It isn't "bias" as much as it is people just wanting to support a character they like.

You can like bandana dee without downplaying and occasionally trashtalking the other characters though, and it's not specifically refered to you but to everyone who kills the discussion each time a Kirby character is mentioned because Bandana Dee is superior.