Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

Direct Reactions

  • Boing!!

    Votes: 57 19.5%
  • Ramen

    Votes: 137 46.8%
  • Udon

    Votes: 25 8.5%
  • Soba

    Votes: 20 6.8%
  • They hired Vegeta to eat lunch...

    Votes: 127 43.3%
  • Sakurai has more TVs than I thought

    Votes: 49 16.7%
  • Sakurai has less TVs than I thought

    Votes: 22 7.5%
  • More Amiibo to empty my wallet!

    Votes: 53 18.1%
  • Not the Bethesda costume I was expecting...?

    Votes: 43 14.7%
  • FALCON LUNCH!!!

    Votes: 136 46.4%

  • Total voters
    293

Cosmic77

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 17, 2017
Messages
8,267
Location
On a planet far far away...
Switch FC
2166-0541-5238
Just compare the amount of KI content added in Smash 4 to Ultimate and you'll see why the complaints of overrepresentation stopped.

In a way, KI had it better in Smash 4. It wasn't completely neglected, as seen by the new Palutena's Guidance conversations, reworked movesets, and new voice clips. Still, it barely picked up any new tracks, all the Smash Run enemies are gone, Magnus is gone, and overall, it just feels like they've given up on trying to pass off Kid Icarus as one of Nintendo's more notable franchises. Back in Smash 4, it seemed like Pit was always front and center. Now it just feels like he's been brushed aside.
 

ZelDan

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
2,085
Location
New Hampshire
Just compare the amount of KI content added in Smash 4 to Ultimate and you'll see why the complaints of overrepresentation stopped.

In a way, KI had it better in Smash 4. It wasn't completely neglected, as seen by the new Palutena's Guidance conversations, reworked movesets, and new voice clips. Still, it barely picked up any new tracks, all the Smash Run enemies are gone, Magnus is gone, and overall, it just feels like they've given up on trying to pass off Kid Icarus as one of Nintendo's more notable franchises. Back in Smash 4, it seemed like Pit was always front and center. Now it just feels like he's been brushed aside.
Well, Pit was 1 of 3 characters that actually got a line of dialogue in WoL's intro. Outside of that though yeah I don't recall KI getting anything new.

I still decided to bring up the franchise though along with SF just to make a point that FE isn't the only one that is overrepresented, atleast from a sales/popularity standpoint or a "playable character per sales" standpoint, which maybe goes to shoe such metrics shouldn;t be so valued in the first place.
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
22,500
Location
Washington
Let's also not ignore the reason KI got a TON of stuff in Smash 4 was probably because it was easy as **** to just port the enemy models over from Uprising and touch them up/down a bit. Since it was the last game Sakurai had worked on before Smash 4, wouldn't surprise me if he just had a handful of the models laying around and just re-used them. I mean, why wouldn't you in his position? Even if KI isn't this big franchise, you have a TON of models you can re-use to fill space and add enemy variety, even if a majority of them are in no way iconic really.
 

MasterOfKnees

Space Pirate
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Messages
8,515
Location
Denmark
NNID
KneeMaster
Switch FC
SW-6310-1174-0352
I'd dispute Ike and Robin (and Lucina) being a promotional picks but if your definition of promotional in this case is "from most recent game" then I agree with the rest of it.
Yeah, some of the characters I labelled promotional picks would obviously have gotten in even by regular metrics, specifically Ike, Robin and Byleth, although maybe Byleth would have been part of Pass 2 instead of Pass 1 given how tight TH's release window made his inclusion. Reading my post again I think I come off as saying that most Fire Emblem characters made it in only for promotional reasons, which isn't true, some of them do have other qualities they'd likely have gotten in on either way, I mostly just wanted to point out that it was at least a significant factor that still played a role in their inclusions.

In truth I think Roy and Corrin are the only ones that unquestionably wouldn't be in Smash if not for their promotional potential, at least going by what Sakurai has said about their inclusions (and also Melee literally being Roy's debut game). Lucina is hard to tell since she's a clone, we can't really know if other potential clones were in contention and could potentially have leapfrogged her if there wasn't so much weight placed on recency, but there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that, so I'll give her a pass.
 
Last edited:

PLATINUM7

Star Platinum
Joined
Nov 15, 2013
Messages
9,438
NNID
PLATINUM7
3DS FC
1246-8735-0293
Switch FC
2465-5306-3806
Let's also not ignore the reason KI got a TON of stuff in Smash 4 was probably because it was easy as **** to just port the enemy models over from Uprising and touch them up/down a bit. Since it was the last game Sakurai had worked on before Smash 4, wouldn't surprise me if he just had a handful of the models laying around and just re-used them. I mean, why wouldn't you in his position? Even if KI isn't this big franchise, you have a TON of models you can re-use to fill space and add enemy variety, even if a majority of them are in no way iconic really.
Sakurai confirmed this in Famitsu.
https://nintendoeverything.com/more...n-sounding-voices-difficulty-with-melee-data/
 

Swamp Sensei

Today is always the most enjoyable day!
GRimer
Joined
Jan 4, 2013
Messages
34,459
Location
Um....Lost?
NNID
Swampasaur
3DS FC
4141-2776-0914
Switch FC
SW-6476-1588-8392
we can't really know if other potential clones were in contention
Actually, the only competition she had was Alph.

Remember, Dr. Mario, Lucina and Dark Pit were originally going to be costumes in Smash 4 and only became clones due to extra time.
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
5,578
Location
Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
Not trying to start an argument, or call anybody out, I'm just genuinely curious

how come when people are complaining about the lack of Zelda characters, they will exclude clones as 'actual characters'
But when they're complaining about FE characters, they'll make sure to count all the clones out as if they were unique?
Well, to be fair, despite being clones, none of the Zelda characters are technically echoes.

But yes. Either Zelda has 6 characters and FE has 8, or Zelda has 4(3) characters and FE has 5.
snowgolem snowgolem This is because at 5 games and 6 characters in, they want The Legend of Zelda's characters to start branching out. The other two Links are the same entity as Link prime, and share the same basic moveset. Technically, Sheik and Zelda are the same entity as well, but they are at least completely different identities, so they often get a pass (though many would like Sheik to be replaced by Impa).

@both Truthfully, Echo Fighters are not officially counted as seperate fighters, while clones are. So officially, they both have only 6 characters, but this doesn't help either complaint, so it's always ignored. And yeah, Fire Emblem does have 8 entities and slots, but the whole idea behind Echo Fighters is that they're alternate costumes given their own unique animations and sometimes minor gameplay differences (Ken being the biggest outlier of this). But because they have their own slots, everyone treats them like full characters.

Just compare the amount of KI content added in Smash 4 to Ultimate and you'll see why the complaints of overrepresentation stopped.
I read K(iller) I(nstinct) so I was very confused for a moment. lol
 
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
1,127
Location
The Letter H
snowgolem snowgolem This is because at 5 games and 6 characters in, they want The Legend of Zelda's characters to start branching out. The other two Links are the same entity as Link prime, and share the same basic moveset. Technically, Sheik and Zelda are the same entity as well, but they are at least completely different identities, so they often get a pass (though many would like Sheik to be replaced by Impa).

@both Truthfully, Echo Fighters are not officially counted as seperate fighters, while clones are. So officially, they both have only 6 characters, but this doesn't help either complaint, so it's always ignored. And yeah, Fire Emblem does have 8 entities and slots, but the whole idea behind Echo Fighters is that they're alternate costumes given their own unique animations and sometimes minor gameplay differences (Ken being the biggest outlier of this). But because they have their own slots, everyone treats them like full characters.


I read K(iller) I(nstinct) so I was very confused for a moment. lol
I treat them as full characters so I can get as many FE characters as possible.
 

Dinoman96

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
1,516
Let's also not ignore the reason KI got a TON of stuff in Smash 4 was probably because it was easy as **** to just port the enemy models over from Uprising and touch them up/down a bit. Since it was the last game Sakurai had worked on before Smash 4, wouldn't surprise me if he just had a handful of the models laying around and just re-used them. I mean, why wouldn't you in his position? Even if KI isn't this big franchise, you have a TON of models you can re-use to fill space and add enemy variety, even if a majority of them are in no way iconic really.
Uprising was a game that had already borrowed a ton of stuff from Smash Bros., so it's only natural that Smash Bros. borrowed a lot of stuff from Uprising in return.
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
11,225
Location
London
Item wise, I wasn't too surprised that Smash was going to borrow a lot from Kid Icarus Uprising, heck some of them felt like they where deliberately designed with Smash in mind back when I played the game prior to Smash 4.

When I saw the Daybreak item for example, I pretty much expected it to become the next Dragoon item where you had to collect all three parts in order to use it.
And then there it was during one of Sakurai's Pic of the Day's if I recall.
 
Last edited:

SKX31

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
1,193
Location
Sweden
And because of his melee fanbase.
reppin' Shroomed out here, lets go. (Sure, he doesn't play the Doctor anymore, but still.) I really wouldn't be surprised if Shroomed helped fuel the Doctor's Melee fanbase though since he's a pro with pretty good results with the character.


(Yeah, I know a lot of his results were after Smash 4 entered development, but even before that he helped the Doctor's popularity quite a bit.)

Actually, the only competition she had was Alph.

Remember, Dr. Mario, Lucina and Dark Pit were originally going to be costumes in Smash 4 and only became clones due to extra time.
There is an interesting question to be asked here - whether Alph-as-a-clone would be Ken/Lucina different (as in having different properties that affect their playstyles) or have more minor differences a la Dark Pit (outside of the FS, Dark Pit's only remaining differences is that his arrows travel much more straight and Electroshock KO earlier).
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
5,578
Location
Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
There is an interesting question to be asked here - whether Alph-as-a-clone would be Ken/Lucina different (as in having different properties that affect their playstyles) or have more minor differences a la Dark Pit (outside of the FS, Dark Pit's only remaining differences is that his arrows travel much more straight and Electroshock KO earlier).
Likely the latter. Unless they were to differentiate him with Brawl Olimar's 6 Pikmin and Up Special (or give Olimar's new moves to back to Alph instead) he wouldn't likely have anything to differentiate himself with, as his Rock Pikmin would probably act the same as Olimar's Purple Pikmin.

EDIT: Perhaps they'd do a bit less damage in exchange for more durability, but that's about it, and would probably mean he's an objectively worse character since Pikmin are quite expendable with the current design.
 
Last edited:

Dinoman96

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
1,516
In hindsight, I do think choosing Lucina and Dark Pit as the alts-turned-characters over Alph made sense.

Both Pit and Marth are some of the most basic movesets in Smash, so making simple clones out of them was a cinch. Meanwhile Olimar is much more complicated with his Pikmin, and the character barely even functioned in the 3DS version.
 
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
3,074
Revealing Byleth and the ARMS character back-to-back wasn't the problem. In all honesty, both feel like standard additions to the roster.

Hate me for saying it, but revealing four third-parties back-to-back is what's to blame. People have the mentality that Smash DLC is synonymous with third-parties, even though there's nothing that suggests that. Now all of the shill pick characters that people were predicting back in 2018 before Joker existed are controversial, even though a lot of people at that time were mentally prepared and ready to accept reps for ARMS, XC2, 3H, and SwSh.

I'm hoping that Byleth and ARMS will be enough to steer people back to the ways of base roster speculation, because in hindsight, Nintendo choosing an ARMS rep isn't that unexpected. We were just blinded by patterns, which is why I believe it would've been best to reveal Byleth somewhere in the middle of the first pass instead of making him dead last when everyone was expecting third-party #5.
Why are you so determined to ignore the context of first parties and push the "too many third parties was bad for expectations" thing you seem intent on pushing. Byleth was the 8th Fire Emblem character, they weren't going to be universally beloved no matter when they showed up. And as I've been over it time and time again, ARMS itself isn't particularly exciting for a lot of people and is just a solid addition to an addition people are more apathetic about. ARMS isn't a universally beloved IP by any stretch of the imagination either.

If Byleth had been Golden Sun and ARMS had been Waluigi, people wouldn't have nearly had the muted to negative reactions they've had with regards to Byleth and ARMS back to back, so it's not really a third party issue. It's a "This is the 8th Fire Emblem character" followed by "A semi controversial new IP" issue that just people aren't terribly excited for. Sure, it could have blindsided people still because sure, they were expecting a third party, but that in of itself wouldn't be a huge issue for a most of the upset and angry people if it was someone other than Byleth. Most people don't actually care about being wrong in Smash speculation that much and move on to the next bit of speculation, but Byleth and ARMS, for all the fans they have, were always going to lean towards more controversial picks, and together were naturally going to deflate momentum, not because they weren't third party picks (and I won't deny that for some people that may be the case), but more so because they themselves are picks with additional context and bits of non hype.

Also, there's generally a reason for the third parties are synonymous with third parties: Of the unique fighters added to Smash via DLC, 7 of the 11 have been third parties. It doesn't mean all DLC will be third parties, but like, yeah, people are going to associate DLC with primarily third parties after that kind of situation. Even if they add another Nintendo character, it's still not ever going to drive discussion back to base game because base game and DLC should fundamentally be looked at differently as they are different things, and people aren't frankly too keen to start limiting the scope of Smash across the board even if some people prefer that.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
550
Location
Jacksonville, Fl
NNID
SpectreJordan
I wonder if Sakurai is inspired by the post launch support of Street Fighter V/Tekken 7 when it comes to Smash.

Another season of SFV content was just announced despite everyone thinking that game was done. I’m hoping we’ll get a similar situation with Smash, atleast a third Fighters Pass.

I may be a bit greedy & I’ll totally understand if Sakurai/the Smash team want to stop after FP2. But, as a huge game lover even outside of Nintendo, I really do want this game to become the Ultimate celebration of gaming.
 

Rie Sonomura

octos are babey don't @ me
Premium
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
10,563
Location
Deepsea Metro
NNID
RieSonomura
Switch FC
SW-4976-7649-4666
I wonder if Sakurai is inspired by the post launch support of Street Fighter V/Tekken 7 when it comes to Smash.

Another season of SFV content was just announced despite everyone thinking that game was done. I’m hoping we’ll get a similar situation with Smash, atleast a third Fighters Pass.

I may be a bit greedy & I’ll totally understand if Sakurai/the Smash team want to stop after FP2. But, as a huge game lover even outside of Nintendo, I really do want this game to become the Ultimate celebration of gaming.
I’d like that too but I can only imagine one more pass with four characters OR four more individual DLC if the WoL slots/game crashing after 91 roster spaces (no stacked Echoes) is anything to go by. Idk if that’s a hardware or software issue but it would seem 91 is the absolute upper limit for the roster for now
 

Eldrake

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
579
I wonder if Sakurai is inspired by the post launch support of Street Fighter V/Tekken 7 when it comes to Smash.

Another season of SFV content was just announced despite everyone thinking that game was done. I’m hoping we’ll get a similar situation with Smash, atleast a third Fighters Pass.

I may be a bit greedy & I’ll totally understand if Sakurai/the Smash team want to stop after FP2. But, as a huge game lover even outside of Nintendo, I really do want this game to become the Ultimate celebration of gaming.
The SFV season is probably more of a special case that happened because of the pandemic and it wasn't not quite something that Capcom had plans for. As I understand it, the pandemic makes it difficult to start new projects (such as SFVI or whatever the Street Fighter team might have planned), but it's still relatively easy to continue development on pre-existing projects, like SFV. I wouldn't count on the same circumstances happening for Smash Bros.

Can FP3 happen? Sure, the chances are low, but maybe Sakurai will be inspired for some reason. Will it happen for the same reasons as SFV's new season? Probably not.
 

SKX31

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
1,193
Location
Sweden
Likely the latter. Unless they were to differentiate him with Brawl Olimar's 6 Pikmin and Up Special (or give Olimar's new moves to back to Alph instead) he wouldn't likely have anything to differentiate himself with, as his Rock Pikmin would probably act the same as Olimar's Purple Pikmin.

EDIT: Perhaps they'd do a bit less damage in exchange for more durability, but that's about it, and would probably mean he's an objectively worse character since Pikmin are quite expendable with the current design.
The "damage / durability" tradeoff wouldn't neccessarily make him an objectively worse character. Because surviving Pikmin get flowers and the latching mechanic means that the opponent needs to deal with the Pikmin anyway. It's a good idea really (sure, it might be overtuned or whatever, but that's an execution problem). And as seen with Marth / Lucina, who's "better" from a competitive lens depends on the game and how mechanics are implemented. In Smash 4 Marth's better because tippers are more consistent there and Smash 4 favored early KOs. In Ultimate Lucina's better because it favors consistency and Marth's tippers are unreliable. Again, competitive lens.

Reworking Olimar to an extent can work too - one problem is that Olimar's commander status means his animations are similar between attacks and make it difficult to tell which attack he's using. He'd be more visually interesting if he lunged himself head-first as his F-Smash together with his Pikmin, but that's just me. (Also, that would be OOC. But that's kinda in flux anyway.)

Brawl's 6 Pikmin though... nah, I don't wanna see online Alphs farm purples / whites / rocks. Don't think many casuals or competitive people would prefer that either.

I wonder if Sakurai is inspired by the post launch support of Street Fighter V/Tekken 7 when it comes to Smash.

Another season of SFV content was just announced despite everyone thinking that game was done. I’m hoping we’ll get a similar situation with Smash, atleast a third Fighters Pass.

I may be a bit greedy & I’ll totally understand if Sakurai/the Smash team want to stop after FP2. But, as a huge game lover even outside of Nintendo, I really do want this game to become the Ultimate celebration of gaming.
Agreed fully. My viewpoint may be colored by my experiences with live-service games, but such games can have very long and fruitful life spans. To use a more "minor" example: SMITE was released in 2014. And their upcoming character (god)? Cthulhu. And that reveal generated a lot of hype, even if SMITE's not as "big" as its competitors. Can "finished" games also have long lifespans? Yes, MvC2, StarCraft I and Melee prove it, as do single player games like SM64 and OoT. Live-service does have a potential positive in keeping people invested with new stuff though (which is why it's become so common in todays video game landscape).

There's also the (small) possibility of an Ultimate DX or whatever, if Nintendo doesn't feel it's worth developing Smash 6 for the next console.
 

Perkilator

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
2,659
Location
San Clemente, California
"People only hate first party DLC because we're used to third parties when the reality is that Nintendo characters can be just as, if not more exciting than the third party DLC!"

The first party DLC:
:ultcorrinf::ultpiranha::ultbyleth:
Hey, at least we're breaking the mold a little bit with ARMS.
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
5,578
Location
Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
Because surviving Pikmin get flowers and the latching mechanic means that the opponent needs to deal with the Pikmin anyway. It's a good idea really (sure, it might be overtuned or whatever, but that's an execution problem).
As a reskin of the Purple Pikmin (and keeping true to source material) Rock Pikmin wouldn't latch on at all so the extra durability doesn't really help damage output like it would for Pikmin that do. What does flowering actually do? I know it helps them keep up with Olimar (but as a defensive character he doesn't really move around much anyways) but that's about it. If it raised their damage as well, then it could mean that they can survive longer than Olimar's Purple Pikmin, and therefore be a more reliable source of damage, which would be a fair tradeoff.

Reworking Olimar to an extent can work too - one problem is that Olimar's commander status means his animations are similar between attacks and make it difficult to tell which attack he's using. He'd be more visually interesting if he lunged himself head-first as his F-Smash together with his Pikmin, but that's just me. (Also, that would be OOC. But that's kinda in flux anyway.)
Nah, the Pikmin need to be Olimar's source of power. They really just need to make Olimar's animations more distinct. Though with his giant head, stubby arms, and the Pikmin mucking up his silhouette, I can see why that'd be difficult.

"People only hate first party DLC because we're used to third parties when the reality is that Nintendo characters can be just as, if not more exciting than the third party DLC!"

The first party DLC:
:ultcorrinf::ultpiranha::ultbyleth:
I know you're probably just talking newcomers, but I still feel like leaving out :ultmewtwo:, :ultlucas:, & :ultroy: in this argument is cherry picking.

EDIT: It still means half of the 1st parties were divisive, but I don't think it's accurate to say all of them were.
 
Last edited:

zumaddy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
314
*laughs in maining Corrin, Byleth and Pirahna Plant happily*

So with Pokemon DLC coming on the 17th, do you think a potential Smash presentation is specifically going to be the week before/after or it won't affect the timing schedule at all?
 
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
3,074
I know you're probably just talking newcomers, but I still feel like leaving out :ultmewtwo:, :ultlucas:, & :ultroy: in this argument is cherry picking.

EDIT: It still means half of the 1st parties were divisive, but I don't think it's accurate to say all of them were.
I don't think comparing cut veterans to newcomers is really a good way to look at things. They're just so radically different in how Smash approached DLC for 4 from a veteran perspective to how they approached newcomers, and Smash Ultimate did away with the concept of veteran DLC completely by including everyone up front. Veterans to true newcomers are really two completely different things.

Also one of the veterans is the a large source of people's anger towards sword fighters and Fire Emblem since he embodies everything people complain about with both except blue hair, but he's from Melee so it doesn't count /s
 

Cosmic77

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 17, 2017
Messages
8,267
Location
On a planet far far away...
Switch FC
2166-0541-5238
Every time someone suggests Biff, I ask myself how he'd attack since he has no springy arms of his own.

And then I remember this image.

DAKOPqOVYAAaeOz.jpg


*laughs in maining Corrin, Byleth and Pirahna Plant happily*

So with Pokemon DLC coming on the 17th, do you think a potential Smash presentation is specifically going to be the week before/after or it won't affect the timing schedule at all?
Probably won't effect the timing at all. Nintendo has been known to have presentations the same week as new releases.

That's assuming whatever they're doing for ARMS airs the same week. Point is, if it was planned for the same week as the SwSh DLC, then I don't think they'd change it. The two can coexist.
 

Cutie Gwen

Lovely warrior
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
55,026
Location
Somewhere out there on this big blue marble
As a reskin of the Purple Pikmin (and keeping true to source material) Rock Pikmin wouldn't latch on at all so the extra durability doesn't really help damage output like it would for Pikmin that do. What does flowering actually do? I know it helps them keep up with Olimar (but as a defensive character he doesn't really move around much anyways) but that's about it. If it raised their damage as well, then it could mean that they can survive longer than Olimar's Purple Pikmin, and therefore be a more reliable source of damage, which would be a fair tradeoff.


Nah, the Pikmin need to be Olimar's source of power. They really just need to make Olimar's animations more distinct. Though with his giant head, stubby arms, and the Pikmin mucking up his silhouette, I can see why that'd be difficult.


I know you're probably just talking newcomers, but I still feel like leaving out :ultmewtwo:, :ultlucas:, & :ultroy: in this argument is cherry picking.

EDIT: It still means half of the 1st parties were divisive, but I don't think it's accurate to say all of them were.
Veterans were already playable characters in the past, which gives them an edge above newcomers, if a potential newcomer doesn't get in, fans will be sad but we may not feel anything. Cutting a veteran though? You saw how many people were upset about the ****ing Ice Climbers who nobody would have cared about had they never gotten in Smash.
Hey, at least we're breaking the mold a little bit with ARMS.
You mean the character Nintendo didn't have the confidence to announce 2 months ago when by all means, Mewtwo and Joker proved that they could have shown a render or something
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
5,578
Location
Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
I don't think comparing cut veterans to newcomers is really a good way to look at things. They're just so radically different in how Smash approached DLC for 4 from a veteran perspective to how they approached newcomers, and Smash Ultimate did away with the concept of veteran DLC completely by including everyone up front. Veterans to true newcomers are really two completely different things.

Also one of the veterans is the a large source of people's anger towards sword fighters and Fire Emblem since he embodies everything people complain about with both except blue hair, but he's from Melee so it doesn't count /s
I disagree. If we're looking at 1st party DLC as a whole, they have to be considered as well.

Also Roy's considered to be as different from Marth as Robin is now and the only criticism he really falls under is the Down Special Counter what 'chu mean?

Every time someone suggests Biff, I ask myself how he'd attack since he has no springy arms of his own.
He actually does have ARMS. I don't think he's ever shown using them like the playable characters do, but you can see that they're segmented just like everyone else's ARMS are when they're not stretching out. Also, I believe it's been explicitly stated somewhere.
 

Trevenant

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 24, 2020
Messages
463
Every time someone suggests Biff, I ask myself how he'd attack since he has no springy arms of his own.

And then I remember this image.

View attachment 273521



Probably won't effect the timing at all. Nintendo has been known to have presentations the same week as new releases.

That's assuming whatever they're doing for ARMS airs the same week. Point is, if it was planned for the same week as the SwSh DLC, then I don't think they'd change it. The two can coexist.
Various bits of official art suggest he has the ARMS phenomena and I still think it's kinda weird they just sorta put him with the other ARMS characters. It probably was to remind people of his announcer role but I still think it was weird.

I can only imagine how much fun you could have with a character the size of Pikachu with range that puts the Belmonts to shame.
 
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
3,074
I disagree. If we're looking at 1st party DLC as a whole, they have to be considered as well.

Also Roy's considered to be as different from Marth as Robin is now and the only criticism he really falls under is the Down Special Counter what 'chu mean?
I don't think newcomers and veterans should be compared. Veterans are characters that the Smash fandom becomes instantly protective of and thus considerably more hype in their inclusions. In a normal world, Roy would never ever be considered anything important, but just by being in Melee once, he instantly became a fan favorite that people actively chose to vote for and he stayed one of the more requested fighters. Being a Smash veteran changes the entire conversation around the character in question. People talk about wanting them back on the roster constantly if they're not there, and Smash's commitment to mostly preserving the roster gives fans a lot of longing when one character isn't in. I mean, veterans aren't new characters Nintendo is actively picking, they're characters Nintendo is choosing to return to the roster after being previously in Smash. And like, I wouldn't have counted Snake equally if he had come back in Smash 4 DLC.

I just think veterans and newcomers are fundamentally different things, and I think even Smash 4's DLC reflects that with how the veterans barely got any content with them and were priced lower than unique newcomers that all got more content in the game with them. Veterans and Newcomers were clearly treated differently in Nintendo's eyes as well from just a DLC perspective.
 

Megadoomer

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
5,772
Switch FC
SW 0351 1523 9047
"People only hate first party DLC because we're used to third parties when the reality is that Nintendo characters can be just as, if not more exciting than the third party DLC!"

The first party DLC:
:ultcorrinf::ultpiranha::ultbyleth:
Yeah, it seems pretty telling that, out of the DLC newcomers, the first party ones have been the least exciting (at least for me). I get that Piranha Plant was an opportunity for the developers to do a fun, unexpected little bonus while showing that they can make any character work and stretching their creative muscles, but Corrin felt like blatant promotion (their game wasn't even released outside of Japan when they were announced), and Byleth seems like the blandest possible option out of the main characters of Three Houses. (the character turned out all right, but only because they had to heavily borrow from the other main characters)

On their own, they were kind of lackluster or odd at first glance. Compared to :4ryu::4cloud::4bayonetta::ultjoker::ulthero3::ultbanjokazooie::ult_terry:, it seems extremely clear (at least from my perspective) which DLC newcomers are more exciting.
 
Last edited:

Cosmic77

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 17, 2017
Messages
8,267
Location
On a planet far far away...
Switch FC
2166-0541-5238
You mean the character Nintendo didn't have the confidence to announce 2 months ago when by all means, Mewtwo and Joker proved that they could have shown a render or something
I don't think a lack of confidence has anything to do with the weird reveal. If anything, revealing which series F6 is coming from three months ahead of release shows more confidence than what they did with the previous character. Byleth's reveal and release was only twelve days apart.

Besides, I'm not really sure how a character model changes anything aside from us knowing who the character was. With the exception of Mewtwo, every DLC character so far had a proper reveal trailer before we got to see their model, their stage, or anything else relevant to their inclusion. My guess is that the animated trailer wasn't ready yet, so rather than keep us in the dark until June, they threw us a bone and semi-revealed the character.
 

Cutie Gwen

Lovely warrior
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
55,026
Location
Somewhere out there on this big blue marble
I don't think a lack of confidence has anything to do with the weird reveal. If anything, revealing which series F6 is coming from three months ahead of release shows more confidence than what they did with the previous character. Byleth's reveal and release was only twelve days apart.

Besides, I'm not really sure how a character model changes anything aside from us knowing who the character was. With the exception of Mewtwo, every DLC character so far had a proper reveal trailer before we got to see their model, their stage, or anything else relevant to their inclusion. My guess is that the animated trailer wasn't ready yet, so rather than keep us in the dark until June, they threw us a bone and semi-revealed the character.
That's fine and dandy, but at the end of the day, I want to know what exactly I'm being asked to buy. We've been able to buy the second pass for nearly 5 months yet despite getting a tease of who it could be, we don't have the actual identity, I want to know who's available for purchase so I can know if I truly want the character or have confidence in the past. By not telling me what exactly they're selling, why should I buy it? It's also why I dislike "How do you feel about X rep?" To use an example, if they went "A Sword and Shield Pokemon is coming to Smash!" I'd hesitate as it COULD be one I like, but it could also be one I don't care about at all like Pinkurchin or whatever it's called. I don't often buy DLC, so I feel I have the right to know what I'm spending my hard earned minimum wage on
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
5,578
Location
Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
Veterans were already playable characters in the past, which gives them an edge above newcomers, if a potential newcomer doesn't get in, fans will be sad but we may not feel anything. Cutting a veteran though? You saw how many people were upset about the ****ing Ice Climbers who nobody would have cared about had they never gotten in Smash.
I don't think newcomers and veterans should be compared. Veterans are characters that the Smash fandom becomes instantly protective of and thus considerably more hype in their inclusions. In a normal world, Roy would never ever be considered anything important, but just by being in Melee once, he instantly became a fan favorite that people actively chose to vote for and he stayed one of the more requested fighters. Being a Smash veteran changes the entire conversation around the character in question. People talk about wanting them back on the roster constantly if they're not there, and Smash's commitment to mostly preserving the roster gives fans a lot of longing when one character isn't in. I mean, veterans aren't new characters Nintendo is actively picking, they're characters Nintendo is choosing to return to the roster after being previously in Smash. And like, I wouldn't have counted Snake equally if he had come back in Smash 4 DLC.
The fact that more people were predisposed to like them doesn't change the fact that they were 1st party DLC that people liked.
EDIT: People were predisposed to liking the Inklings, but if they were DLC instead of Corrin you'd be counting them as well.

I just think veterans and newcomers are fundamentally different things, and I think even Smash 4's DLC reflects that with how the veterans barely got any content with them and were priced lower than unique newcomers that all got more content in the game with them. Veterans and Newcomers were clearly treated differently in Nintendo's eyes as well from just a DLC perspective.
This was the case with Corrin as well (he got two music tracks, but they didn't charge more for it). The 3rd parties cost more because they required an entirely new stage, and had licensing costs.
 
Last edited:

SKX31

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
1,193
Location
Sweden
As a reskin of the Purple Pikmin (and keeping true to source material) Rock Pikmin wouldn't latch on at all so the extra durability doesn't really help damage output like it would for Pikmin that do. What does flowering actually do? I know it helps them keep up with Olimar (but as a defensive character he doesn't really move around much anyways) but that's about it. If it raised their damage as well, then it could mean that they can survive longer than Olimar's Purple Pikmin, and therefore be a more reliable source of damage, which would be a fair tradeoff.


Nah, the Pikmin need to be Olimar's source of power. They really just need to make Olimar's animations more distinct. Though with his giant head, stubby arms, and the Pikmin mucking up his silhouette, I can see why that'd be difficult.
Oh yes, forgot actually that Purples / Rocks don't latch. And further on, turns out that the flowering is also just aesthetic. I'll fully admit to that mistake myself - I'm not the only one who made that mistake. MewtwoKing and Salem both thought that Brawl Olimar's Pikmin become "super-God" when they flower in their Brawl tierlist.* Probably because in the Pikmin games that has an effect, and people kind of assumed it did despite no evidence.

Whelp. Here's Olimar player Myran's beginner guide - no changing damage / knockback stuff depending on budding. Likewise, his Brawl moveset does not mention budding having an effect at all.

And yeah, reworking his animations is going to be difficult, not denying that.

*(EDIT: M2K and Salem both played Brawl for years and still missed that. Everyone makes mistakes.)
 
Last edited:

Cutie Gwen

Lovely warrior
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
55,026
Location
Somewhere out there on this big blue marble
The fact that more people were predisposed to like them doesn't change the fact that they were 1st party DLC that people liked.
EDIT: People were predisposed to liking the Inklings, but if they were DLC instead of Corrin you'd be counting them as well.


This was the case with Corrin as well (he got two music tracks, but they didn't charge more for it). The 3rd parties cost more because they required an entirely new stage, and had licensing costs.
Here's the thing though, had Snake been DLC, I wouldn't have counted him either, not to mention when people talk about potential characters these days, nobody's asking for any veterans because we got them all, meaning it doesn't feel like anyone's missing.

Corrin was still more expensive than the veterans last I checked, meaning the stage is the real inflater
 

Rie Sonomura

octos are babey don't @ me
Premium
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
10,563
Location
Deepsea Metro
NNID
RieSonomura
Switch FC
SW-4976-7649-4666
Say, doesn’t Nintendo of America usually have something posted by now? Something’s up... I have tweet notifications on for them and haven’t seen anything since I got up
 

Cosmic77

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 17, 2017
Messages
8,267
Location
On a planet far far away...
Switch FC
2166-0541-5238
That's fine and dandy, but at the end of the day, I want to know what exactly I'm being asked to buy. We've been able to buy the second pass for nearly 5 months yet despite getting a tease of who it could be, we don't have the actual identity, I want to know who's available for purchase so I can know if I truly want the character or have confidence in the past. By not telling me what exactly they're selling, why should I buy it? It's also why I dislike "How do you feel about X rep?" To use an example, if they went "A Sword and Shield Pokemon is coming to Smash!" I'd hesitate as it COULD be one I like, but it could also be one I don't care about at all like Pinkurchin or whatever it's called. I don't often buy DLC, so I feel I have the right to know what I'm spending my hard earned minimum wage on
Well, I'll just say the same thing people said when others were complaining about Byleth.

You shouldn't have prepurchased the pass if there were certain characters you knew you weren't committed to buying.
 
Top Bottom