Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Digital Hazard]

I don't know about Bomberman but I'm sure why people are so confused about characters like Zero, Alucard, Chun-Li, etc not being playable when there just hasn't been a real precedent for secondary third party characters with fully unique movesets in Smash. The closest we got are Ken and Richter, who both got in as echo fighters/clones and took considerably less time to develop than someone like Alucard or Chun.

Like if someone like Eggman was playable, then sure it'd be weird/dumb if Alucard/Zero were only ATs, but as it currently stands...

To be fair Alucard was considered at some point before settling for the Belmonts.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The ATs didnt make it in, putting them in now just makes me wonder what the decisions was to include them in as Ats when you knew they were THIS close to getting in as DLC or were still in talks about fighter packs.

Probably because they didn't. They certainly weren't aware of DLC round 2 when they added Assist Trophies.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Reminder all! It is Tuesday and we all know what that means!

 

[Megadoomer]

Reminder all! It is Tuesday and we all know what that means!

I know that you're talking about the next tournament or spirit event announcement, but the first thing that came to mind was this:

 

[Icedragonadam]

Reminder all! It is Tuesday and we all know what that means!

Taco Tuesday!

Spoiler

JK. Guessing it'll be an Xenoblade HD spirit event with 3 pairs of Shulk's party with their new renders.

So something like:

Shulk, Fiora, and Melia.
Reyn and Sharla
Dunban and Riki

 

[Perkilator]

Did I ever ask if the ARMS palette swap argument was used even BEFORE their confirmation?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Did I ever ask if the ARMS palette swap argument was used even BEFORE their confirmation?

I dunno if you did, but I can tell you it did come up beforehand from what I remember. It was an argument for a very very long time.

Thankfully it'll be over in a few weeks~

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Did I ever ask if the ARMS palette swap argument was used even BEFORE their confirmation?

Not likely. I don't think anyone thought about it before, and it seems to only have com up due to people not wanting just Spring Man.

 

[Dinoman96]

It's crazy how we haven't had any all new spirits in about a month (since the Trials of Mana ones from last April).

 

[Knight Dude]

Remember when Pokken Tournament just put an Assist Pokémon into playable status in DLC?

If im honest i think Smash is the only game series that has bothered with this whole NPC situation, as i don't think other fighting games suffer from this.

It's cause character wars are kind of a deal with Smash. They probably shouldn't be. But when everyone has someone to root for, it's bound to happen. Even more so than other fighting and crossover games. Injustice, MK, and Street Fighter are also some examples of characters getting promoted.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

So... they only said the ARMS fighter would be revealed and released in June... didn’t say it would be on the same day.

what if early June REVEAL + mid to late June RELEASE???

 

[Speed Weed]

alright

imma pull a fun game here and say the very first third-party mentioned in this thread will be the next spirit event

checks

damn

bomberman gettin' further buried

 

[DarthEnderX]

Persona isn't "Final Fantasy Tactics" to "Final Fantasy," it's "Bravely Default" to "Final Fantasy."

No, hard disagree. Persona is still a spinoff in the MegaTen franchise. Bravely Default is NOT a Final Fantasy spinoff, despite having a Job System.

Megaten could be considered as the universe or a very wide family tree, to put it in a different way.

Or, more accurately, a "franchise". Which contains multiple subseries.

 

[Idon]

NieR and Drakengard are not considered different series, though. Or rather, they are, but nobody's going to deny that NieR is a spin-off of Drakengard. Just like nobody can deny that WarioWare is a spin-off of Mario.

I mean, it's not like people say Persona is a spin-off of SMT just because of the name. The entire concept of Persona is derived from Shin Megami Tensei if, hell, the female protagonist of the latter appears in P3. I think that places Persona firmly in SMT spin-off territory and not as just another franchise in the broader Megami Tensei family (personally I don't even consider Shin Megami Tensei to be a subseries of Megami Tensei but rather the main branch, much like Metal Gear Solid isn't a subseries within Metal Gear).

Final Fantasy Tactics is a great comparison because it's also a spin-off series that takes place in one world and one continuity whereas the main series switches between them.

Ugh, lemme address these points one by one, and then I'll leave it at that before it gets more off-topic than it already has.

Spoiler

• You could call Nier a spinoff lore-wise, but it's its own series and ergo "not Drakengard" which is the entire point of the conversation and why you won't see Drakengard music in 2B gets in and sticks to Nier content and vice-versa for Caim/Zero.
• The entire concept of Persona is Jungian psychology and personas. SMT: If is "what if an apocalypse with demons happened in a school setting" The only thing that gets carried over is the highschool setting.
• Tamaki Uchida appears in Persona 1 and 2, not 3.
• Just because you're part of the same timeline doesn't mean you're a spinoff of another series. For yet another comparison I have to make, Final Fight has Cody Travers and Guy are both popular characters in Street Fighter, and despite that none are spinoffs of the other. Not to mention Strider is no connected to that timeline via Zeku.
• Being tied to SMT:If doesn't mean **** for not being another branch as we have:
• Raidou Kuzunoha referencing SMT1, still a different subseries
• Devil Survivor also has a reference to SMT1, still a different subseries
• Digital Devil Saga has the exact same combat system, THE ACTUAL DEMI-FIEND AS A SUPER-BOSS AND DIRECTLY REFERENCES NOCTURNE, and it is still a different subseries.
• Final Fantasy Tactics takes place in Ivalice which is has FF12 tied to it. Also, Vagrant Story, which is another example, but we've seen enough. Beyond that point, it is directly referenced as an FF spinoff and gets featured in FF material like Dissidia.

Look, it isn't tone, story, characters, tenuous plot connections, and least of all quality that determines if a game has the "SMT" moniker, becuase it's an arbitrary title.
Which is why actual spinoffs like SMT:If, SMT: Nine, SMT: Imagine, and even the damn mobile gacha game SMT:Dx2 vary wildly in all the above qualities.

TL;DR, look at this box:

And this conversation sums up why to this day I still can't look up SMT in google images and bet met with Joker's dumbass grin.

No, hard disagree. Persona is still a spinoff of the MegaTen series. Bravely Default is NOT a Final Fantasy spinoff, despite having a Job System.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

It's cause character wars are kind of a deal with Smash. They probably shouldn't be. But when everyone has someone to root for, it's bound to happen. Even more so than other fighting and crossover games. Injustice, MK, and Street Fighter are also some examples of characters getting promoted.

May you mention some examples? Just for curiosity sake.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

May you mention some examples? Just for curiosity sake.

For Street Fighter, Ed appears in the story mode, and is now a full character complete with a stupid looking redesign and another character (other than M. Bison and Balrog) that's tied to him.

 

[DarthEnderX]

View attachment 272816

Well, the Wikipedia pages for MegaTen and Persona both say Persona is a MegaTen spinoff. So I'll take their word over yours.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Well, the Wikipedia pages for MegaTen and Persona both say Persona is a MegaTen spinoff. So I'll take their word over yours.

Wikipedia isn't exactly reliable though. Every teacher I've met recommends the site as a jumping off point for other sources but will not accept the site itself as a source.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Wikipedia isn't exactly reliable though. Every teacher I've met recommends the site as a jumping off point for other sources but will not accept the site itself as a source.

Granted, but I still choose believe Wikipedia over a guy on a message board.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Well, the Wikipedia pages for MegaTen and Persona both say Persona is a MegaTen spinoff. So I'll take their word over yours.

I've had my fair share of edit wars in that site to know it's not the best place for sources and facts. Hell, the website itself admits it's not a reliable source of information.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Granted, but I still choose believe Wikipedia over a guy on a message board.

Fair enough.

I've had my fair share of edit wars in that site to know it's not the best place for sources and facts. Hell, the website itself admits it's not a reliable source of information.

I remember someone telling me that there was a student who plagiarized Wikipedia for a PowerPoint. The result was that one of the slides said "So and so is an actress with a nice butt" or something probably even more inappropriate. Not sure if it really happened though. I mean, it was middle school, but you'd still have to be pretty dumb (and/or lazy) to do something like that.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't surprised by the lack of Bomberman discussions.

I mean, I understand that the AT makes him seem less likely, but I dunno. Wish more people would discuss him, especially if Spring Man gets in.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

If you want to say "Persona is Megaten" then sure, they're under the same VERY WIDE umbrella.
If you want to say "Persona is Shin Megami Tensei" then no, that's only applicable to games that, y'know, have "Shin Megami Tensei" in the name.

Persona isn't "Final Fantasy Tactics" to "Final Fantasy," it's "Bravely Default" to "Final Fantasy." or a better example, "Nier" to "Drakengard." They share a lot of elements like enemies, spell names, weapons, and whatnot, but they're not the same series.

Wasn't Nier explicitly a sequel to one of Drackengard's simultaneously whackier and more depressing endings?

 

[Gribbo]

For Street Fighter, Ed appears in the story mode, and is now a full character complete with a stupid looking redesign and another character (other than M. Bison and Balrog) that's tied to him.

And if you REALLY want to go back, in Street Fighter 2, M. Bison, Balrog, Vega, and Sagat were non-playable boss characters until the Champion Edition.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Probably because they didn't. They certainly weren't aware of DLC round 2 when they added Assist Trophies.

They had extra fighter slots, but I don't believe character planning for FP2 was in the works at the time.

Also, I wonder why no one's considered this as a reason why Smash 4 didn't have any promoted ATs as DLC: It was harder to think of at the time when:

• There were certain veterans people wanted back
• Ridley and Chrom, NPCs that people did want promoted, were not ATs
• K. Rool was in high demand
• Phil Spencer approved of voting for Banjo & Kazooie on the ballot, causing support for them to be revived

 

[Speed Weed]

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't surprised by the lack of Bomberman discussions.

I mean, I understand that the AT makes him seem less likely, but I dunno. Wish more people would discuss him, especially if Spring Man gets in.

the sight of bomberman as an at on that june afternoon was HEARTBREAKING, i tell ya

"Yup, it's him!" i cri evrytim

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't surprised by the lack of Bomberman discussions.

I mean, I understand that the AT makes him seem less likely, but I dunno. Wish more people would discuss him, especially if Spring Man gets in.

I think its the same reason Simon had a lull of support despite doing well in the ballot.

The current state of Konami has made some people give up hope.

The support is there, but its quiet.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

So... they only said the ARMS fighter would be revealed and released in June... didn’t say it would be on the same day.

what if early June REVEAL + mid to late June RELEASE???

Its possible they could reveal the ARMS rep on the 11th to coincide when E3 was meant to come out this year then release said ARMS rep on the 16th.

Still suspecting ARMS rep will be revealed and released at the same time on the 16th.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Its possible they could reveal the ARMS rep on the 11th to coincide when E3 was meant to come out this year then release said ARMS rep on the 16th.

Still suspecting ARMS rep will be revealed and released at the same time on the 16th.

I'm gonna be honest, I don't think they're gonna stick to an E3 release date.

It's gonna be whenever they're done and ready.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I'm gonna be honest, I don't think they're gonna stick to an E3 release date.

It's gonna be whenever they're done and ready.

First to third week of June is when I expect it. Can't see it being any further then that.

And so far I'm thinking the 16th date is probably true so another three weeks to go.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I am a simple man, I see Brass talk, I give likes

 

[I.D.]

Wasn't Nier explicitly a sequel to one of Drackengard's simultaneously whackier and more depressing endings?

If by "explicit" you mean you have to dig into text only lore.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I am a simple man, I see Brass talk, I give likes

Who is John-117? I'd look it up but I'd probably get a Bible verse.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Who is John-117? I'd look it up but I'd probably get a Bible verse.

It's Master Chief bro

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It's Master Chief bro

I don't think I've never heard that, but very few people call him that, and I've never touched a Halo game so that's why I didn't know/remember.

 

[Knight Dude]

May you mention some examples? Just for curiosity sake.

Injustice 1 had Martian Manhunter, who was a stage cameo in the Watchtower, then became a playable character through DLC.

Injustice 2 something very similar happens when Black Manta was a stage hazard in the Atlantis stage, but he became DLC later. The stage hazard even remains the same no matter what too.

Street Fighter 5 had Kolin in a stage background, but she was added later on.

MK has somewhat similar examples, like Johnny Cage being in a background in MK11 if he isn't chosen. I want to say the Classic Smoke costume appears in MK9's Forest stage, even if you didn't buy that suit.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Injustice 1 had Martian Manhunter, who was a stage cameo in the Watchtower, then became a playable character through DLC. I

njustice 2 something very similar happens when Black Manta was a stage hazard in the Atlantis stage, but he became DLC later. The stage hazard even remains the same no matter what too.

Street Fighter 5 had Kolin in a stage background, but she was added later on.

MK has somewhat similar examples, like Johnny Cage being in a background in MK11 if he isn't chosen. I want to say the Classic Smoke costume appears in MK9's Forest stage, even if you didn't buy that suit.

MK9 also has Skarlet, iirc. Being a cameo at the Coliseum stage before DLC.

 

[NintenZ]

You know it’s funny

This thread seems to take Reimu as a potential contender VERY seriously it seems like, and she’s commonly brought up to discredit more out-there choices people don’t agree with

Like I’ve seen some people here even call her “Slept on” but everything said seems largely anecdotal and based off personal echo chambers

If someone could elaborate on why she’s allegedly so likely or a compelling character that people should be keeping an eye on, that’d be great, because I see people saying she and her franchise are Dragon Quest-tier levels of popularity in Japan and I don’t buy it for a minute

 

[MrMcNuts]

You know it’s funny

This thread seems to take Reimu as a potential contender VERY seriously it seems like, and she’s commonly brought up to discredit more out-there choices people don’t agree with

Like I’ve seen some people here even call her “Slept on” but everything said seems largely anecdotal and based off personal echo chambers

If someone could elaborate on why she’s allegedly so likely or a compelling character that people should be keeping an eye on, that’d be great, because I see people saying she and her franchise are Dragon Quest-tier levels of popularity in Japan and I don’t buy it for a minute

She's big in Japan, but that's about it, and even then its not even close to dragon quest. But I agree, I don't see her as likely at all and it's kind of a sure someone would use her of all people to discredit someone's likeliness

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You know it’s funny

This thread seems to take Reimu as a potential contender VERY seriously it seems like, and she’s commonly brought up to discredit more out-there choices people don’t agree with

Like I’ve seen some people here even call her “Slept on” but everything said seems largely anecdotal and based off personal echo chambers

If someone could elaborate on why she’s allegedly so likely or a compelling character that people should be keeping an eye on, that’d be great, because I see people saying she and her franchise are Dragon Quest-tier levels of popularity in Japan and I don’t buy it for a minute

Saying it's DQ-tier definitely feels like massive bias. It's still pretty big in Japan, especially for what is essentially indie titles made mostly by just one guy, but it's not that big.

If it was, we'd already have Reimu in Smash right now by this point.