Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Rie Sonomura]

Injustice 1 had Martian Manhunter, who was a stage cameo in the Watchtower, then became a playable character through DLC. I

njustice 2 something very similar happens when Black Manta was a stage hazard in the Atlantis stage, but he became DLC later. The stage hazard even remains the same no matter what too.

Street Fighter 5 had Kolin in a stage background, but she was added later on.

MK has somewhat similar examples, like Johnny Cage being in a background in MK11 if he isn't chosen. I want to say the Classic Smoke costume appears in MK9's Forest stage, even if you didn't buy that suit.

Don’t forget Android 17 in Dragon Ball FighterZ. Originally a part of... I think 18’s moveset, he later became playable via DLC

 

[SNEKeater]

Saying it's DQ-tier definitely feels like massive bias. It's still pretty big in Japan, especially for what is essentially indie titles made mostly by just one guy, but it's not that big.

If it was, we'd already have Reimu in Smash right now by this point.

I'm definitely not an expert of Touhou, but I don't think that last bit of your post is really necessary. You could apply that reasoning to any big franchise that isn't in Smash, japanese or not.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Some people do want this - I remember a whole Source Gaming article supporting the idea. Unless it's some kind of satire like "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

The concept doesn't make sense to me for a lot of reasons (removing a lot of really exciting characters, becoming unnecessarily restrictive in terms of character selection, setting the series back by roughly fifteen to twenty years, overreacting to some characters not having as positive of a reception as Sonic or Mega Man), but some people legitimately want third party characters to be removed and for Smash to go back to only having Nintendo content.

The funny thing about that article is that it was published just prior to Cloud and Bayonetta getting in, so it barely even got 2 months before Sakurai more or less start shattering his ideas, let alone before Ultimate just nuked them entirely.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't surprised by the lack of Bomberman discussions.

I mean, I understand that the AT makes him seem less likely, but I dunno. Wish more people would discuss him, especially if Spring Man gets in.

I mean, this is what Scoliosis Jones refers to when he talks about Assist Trophies not impacting one another. Nothing really changes for Bomberman if Spring Man gets in. Bomberman still got put pretty much on lower priority from the get go since Castlevania got the newcomer red carpet and Snake's return also was a huge sticking point of Ultimate's "Everyone is Here!" He's not always got the clearest moveset and he's also not really done much in the past couple years outside of Super Bomberman R, which was a nice, albeit fairly rough, return to Bomberman. There also just wasn't as much anger at him being an Assist Trophy as some other options TBH because people were just happy to see him and his Assist Trophy works pretty damn well in game as a representation fo him.

Don't get me wrong, Bomberman is THE assist trophy I would pick to upgrade if I only got one and he's an adorable little guy who is iconic in his own right alongside giving some much needed love to all too often forgotten Hudson Soft... but I just don't really see what has changed from him in such a way to make him particularly likely for a DLC upgrade.

 

[I.D.]

You know it’s funny

This thread seems to take Reimu as a potential contender VERY seriously it seems like, and she’s commonly brought up to discredit more out-there choices people don’t agree with

Like I’ve seen some people here even call her “Slept on” but everything said seems largely anecdotal and based off personal echo chambers

If someone could elaborate on why she’s allegedly so likely or a compelling character that people should be keeping an eye on, that’d be great, because I see people saying she and her franchise are Dragon Quest-tier levels of popularity in Japan and I don’t buy it for a minute

Reminder this poster sincerely believes Sakura Taisen to be a huge phenomenon in Japan.

 

[NintenZ]

She's big in Japan, but that's about it, and even then its not even close to dragon quest. But I agree, I don't see her as likely at all and it's kind of a sure someone would use her of all people to discredit someone's likeliness

It’s not even THAT big though, when I went there this summer I mostly saw it’s presence in the form of small little circles at Akihabara, it’s not like it had a theatrical film out at the time, a symphonic suite, was loaded with tons of merchandise, and had a convenience store modeled after it, it was just this thing that seemed to be enjoyed by a few circles there, which is fine but it’s nothing on the level of Dragon Quest.

Hell it doesn’t even have a cafe which if it was THAT popular in Japan it probably would’ve (even TED the bear by Seth McFarline had one)

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'm definitely not an expert of Touhou, but I don't think that last bit of your post is really necessary. You could apply that reasoning to any big franchise that isn't in Smash, japanese or not.

It was mostly a joke, but still, point is it's not DQ big.

For indie standards, yes, Touhou is definitely massive, but to compare it to DQ is just overexaggerating.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Reminder this poster sincerely believes Sakura Taisen to be a huge phenomenon in Japan.

A lot of people seem to be under the assumption that any Japanese game that is much more popular there than in the West, or at least their favorite one, is DQ-tier.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Reminder this poster sincerely believes Sakura Taisen to be a huge phenomenon in Japan.

Found the Touhou fan

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

A lot of people seem to be under the assumption that any Japanese game that is much more popular there than in the West, or at least their favorite one, is DQ-tier.

If every game that did better there was DQ-tier, then DQ itself wouldn't really be a "phenomenom" if it was just one among many, so the term "DQ tier" we've thrown in this discussion would have literally no meaning.

 

[Lamperouge]

Injustice 1 had Martian Manhunter, who was a stage cameo in the Watchtower, then became a playable character through DLC. I

njustice 2 something very similar happens when Black Manta was a stage hazard in the Atlantis stage, but he became DLC later. The stage hazard even remains the same no matter what too.

Street Fighter 5 had Kolin in a stage background, but she was added later on.

MK has somewhat similar examples, like Johnny Cage being in a background in MK11 if he isn't chosen. I want to say the Classic Smoke costume appears in MK9's Forest stage, even if you didn't buy that suit.

I know that Kolin appeared in the story mode for SF5 but I don't think she was originally a background character. Alex was the one who started out as a background cameo before being added as DLC.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You know it’s funny

This thread seems to take Reimu as a potential contender VERY seriously it seems like, and she’s commonly brought up to discredit more out-there choices people don’t agree with

Like I’ve seen some people here even call her “Slept on” but everything said seems largely anecdotal and based off personal echo chambers

If someone could elaborate on why she’s allegedly so likely or a compelling character that people should be keeping an eye on, that’d be great, because I see people saying she and her franchise are Dragon Quest-tier levels of popularity in Japan and I don’t buy it for a minute

I think a good way to put it would be...

Halo/Doom = Dragon Quest

Huge in one region and influential on the genre and gaming as a whole.

Banjo Kazooie = Tohou

Beloved smaller IP and very popular in one region. Influential, but not genre defining.

 

[PeridotGX]

A lot of people seem to be under the assumption that any Japanese game that is much more popular there than in the West, or at least their favorite one, is DQ-tier.

I wonder if Japanese fans have an equivalent to this?

"Shovel Knight is totally gonna be in. Over in the states, it's as big as Doom!"

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Halo/Doom = Dragon Quest

Doom != Dragon Quest. The series died and only revived not too long ago.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Doom != Dragon Quest. The series died and only revived not too long ago.

And yet the popularity and influence stayed.

I don't think anyone would argue that Doom lost any value as an IP.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Doom != Dragon Quest. The series died and only revived not too long ago.

He meant in terms of impact on gaming as a whole.

Also, just because a series is dead doesn't mean it's not popular anymore. Because by that logic, every fan of a dead franchise would be a fraud.

 

[NintenZ]

A lot of people seem to be under the assumption that any Japanese game that is much more popular there than in the West, or at least their favorite one, is DQ-tier.

While I agree with this statement the person you were quoting was literally just saying that to instigate so I’d just recommend ignoring.

I think a good way to put it would be...

Halo/Doom = Dragon Quest

Huge in one region and influential on the genre and gaming as a whole.

Banjo Kazooie = Tohou

Beloved smaller IP and very popular in one region. Influential, but not genre defining.

Yeah that’s honestly a really good way to put it, it’s more of a cult thing that, while it made a big splash in areas, wasn’t a dealbreaker that completely broke the walls of it’s genre.

 

[Cosmic77]

I get that some characters are vastly more popular in certain regions than others, but I think Nintendo would like the characters they choose to have some kind of notable presence in most regions.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yeah that’s honestly a really good way to put it, it’s more of a cult thing that, while it made a big splash in areas, wasn’t a dealbreaker that completely broke the walls of it’s genre.

Yup.

Just like Sakura Wars.

 

[I.D.]

While I agree with this statement the person you were quoting was saying that to instigate so I’d just recommend ignoring.

Pointing out blatant hypocrisy isn't instigating. Funny that you accuse others of inflating their character's popularity while you go around trying to convince people of the amazing phenomenon of Sakura Taisen in Japan because it had one cafe that closed 12 years ago due to the waning popularity of the series.

 

[Knight Dude]

You know it’s funny

This thread seems to take Reimu as a potential contender VERY seriously it seems like, and she’s commonly brought up to discredit more out-there choices people don’t agree with

Like I’ve seen some people here even call her “Slept on” but everything said seems largely anecdotal and based off personal echo chambers

If someone could elaborate on why she’s allegedly so likely or a compelling character that people should be keeping an eye on, that’d be great, because I see people saying she and her franchise are Dragon Quest-tier levels of popularity in Japan and I don’t buy it for a minute

I guess. I'll admit to not know much about Touhou, but I guess it makes a lot of sense to mention the series in the same breath as Shantae and Shovel Knight, since all those series are indie ones. And the former two are pretty popular among Smash fans.

 

[NintenZ]

Yup.

Just like Sakura Wars.

Bruh

(Please tell me you’re joking cause I’ve explained this pretty thoroughly)

 

[Ben Holt]

Pointing out blatant hypocrisy isn't instigating. Funny that you accuse others of inflating their character's popularity while you go around trying to convince people of the amazing phenomenon of Sakura Taisen in Japan because it had one cafe that closed 12 years ago due to the waning popularity of the series.

Yea dude, you're kinda instigating.
It's ok to disagree, but being a prick about it will only make you look bad.

 

[BernkastelWitch]

People bringing up Touhou again? It's always interesting when people bring it up at least. I won't say it's "Dragon Quest" levels but it's more like Banjo-Kazooie levels, maybe barely higher due to Touhou having more games.

And honestly Touhou is a rare Indie series that has been around since 1997, making it one of the, if not the oldest Indie series around. I can't think of many more indie games or series that have been around that long. And the fact that due to ZUNs relaxed copyright made it into one of the largest Doujin series around essentially made it a bit of a pop culture thing in Japan, at least when the Windows era games blew up. Hell, a lot of would-be developers got inspired by Touhou, including the likes of Toby Fox and even former Nintendo developers worked on a few Touhou fangames.

It's always a treat seeing it being discussed in Smash and not treated like this "Unknown Boogeyman". I still think Reimu or any Touhou content is still possible, especially since ZUN seems to like the idea and literally all it would take for negotiations would be Sakurai giving him a nice, cold beer(I wish I was exaggerating or joking about this) which makes Reimu, compared to a few other 3rd parties that are brought up very easy to negotiate on.

The only question is if there'd be interest in Nintendo and Sakurai for anything Touhou related in Smash or not. But it's good to see support for Reimu and Touhou have been gradually building up recently.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Maybe I've just been under a rock but I'm surprised to see a Touhou character discussion, here.

I know it's quite popular around here, but I haven't seen people seriously considering any of it's characters for Smash before. That I can recall, anyway.

...Yeah, I probably just haven't noticed it.

 

[Ben Holt]

I feel like if we get a playable Indie character, Shovel Knight will be first in line.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Bruh

(Please tell me you’re joking cause I’ve explained this pretty thoroughly)

I'm not.

I think they're both in the same tier as a smaller but influential IP.

That's not a slam on either series. Both are valuable IPs to own.

The biggest difference is that Touhou uses the IP differently and expands in ways Sakura Wars doesn't, while Sakura Wars focuses more on games.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Maybe I've just been under a rock but I'm surprised to see a Touhou character discussion, here.

I know it's quite popular around here, but I haven't seen people seriously considering any of it's characters for Smash before. That I can recall, anyway.

...Yeah, I probably just haven't noticed it.

I'm pretty sure the only reason it's ever gotten some actual talk is because of that music "leak"

Before that, Smash x Touhou talk was next to nonexistent.

 

[BernkastelWitch]

Maybe I've just been under a rock but I'm surprised to see a Touhou character discussion, here.

I know it's quite popular around here, but I haven't seen people seriously considering any of it's characters for Smash before. That I can recall, anyway.

...Yeah, I probably just haven't noticed it.

It's one of those things that seemed impossible at first until Ultimate came around and like other characters like Doom Guy and whatnot, is seen as a possibility. I don't think I've seen anyone want Doom Guy during the Brawl or SSB4 days at least.

And Touhou support has been growing a bit too.

 

[Knight Dude]

Don’t forget Android 17 in Dragon Ball FighterZ. Originally a part of... I think 18’s moveset, he later became playable via DLC

I think someone mentioned Android 17's situation before. I guess Normal Goku would count as such too, the updated model was in Bardock's Dramatic Finish against Frieza.

I know that Kolin appeared in the story mode for SF5 but I don't think she was originally a background character. Alex was the one who started out as a background cameo before being added as DLC.

I forgot about Alex. But I thought Kolin was in the Russian stage with the Bear. Still, Story modes or stages, the point is that cameo characters in fighting games get added later at a semi-regular pace.

 

[Deleted member]

INB4 this week’s Spirit Event is Touhou.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm pretty sure the only reason it's ever gotten some actual talk is because of that music "leak"

Before that, Smash x Touhou talk was next to nonexistent.

Nah it was.

Reimu has always been a dark horse suggestion in Japan.

They just weren't treated seriously til the ballot.

 

[Mr. Robotto]

Touhou is definitely massive.... Indie-wise.
I'd definitely compare it to something like Undertale. They're both very big to grant them a TON of Internet presence, there are sites and countless communities dedicated to both fandoms, yet you won't see much of either outside of the Internet.
Keep in mind that Touhou is constantly getting referenced and contains countless of memes on big sites like Nico Nico Douga (a Japanese video-sharing site like YouTube), just like how Undertale keeps getting referenced and memed on by countless big YouTubers. They both get constant remixes by fans as well and both communities are very active till this day. They're also both massive Indie-hits made by one person (or a VERY small team in Undertale's case).

To say that Touhou is as big as Dragon Quest, an AAA title that has shaped JRPGs as a whole and still remains to be cultural phenomenon in Japan, is ludicrous. But is it big? Yeah, Undertale-big. There are still way bigger IPs in Japan that are not repped in Smash yet, that's for sure. (SERIOUSLY WHERE IS MACHI)
As someone that visits Japan regularly for family-purposes, I hope this answers some questions.

 

[NintenZ]

I'm not.

I think they're both in the same tier as a smaller but influential IP.

That's not a slam on either series. Both are valuable IPs to own.

The biggest difference is that Touhou uses the IP differently and expands in ways Sakura Wars doesn't, while Sakura Wars focuses more on games.

That’s fair but what I was saying was at one point it was much bigger, on the level of Final Fantasy as a matter of fact, and it had a wider impact on triple-A games was what I meant but my words are being twisted by someone in this thread as if I‘ve been saying something entirely different.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Nah it was.

Reimu has always been a dark horse suggestion in Japan.

They just weren't treated seriously til the ballot.

In Japan, yes. But what about us Westerners?

 

[KingofPhantoms]

It's one of those things that seemed impossible at first until Ultimate came around and like other characters like Doom Guy and whatnot, is seen as a possibility. I don't think I've seen anyone want Doom Guy during the Brawl or SSB4 days at least.

And Touhou support has been growing a bit too.

There was a little bit of talk about Doom Guy back then, but it was really minimal.

I'm pretty sure the only reason it's ever gotten some actual talk is because of that music "leak"

Before that, Smash x Touhou talk was next to nonexistent.

A leak I wouldn't know about, admittedly.

I've been fed up with leaks ever since the Grinch happened. Couldn't care less about them anymore, whether they're legit or otherwise.

Nah it was.

Reimu has always been a dark horse suggestion in Japan.

They just weren't treated seriously til the ballot.

...Okay, yeah, that's fair lol.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Touhou is definitely massive.... Indie-wise.
I'd definitely compare it to something like Undertale. They're both very big to grant them a TON of Internet presence, there are sites and countless communities dedicated to both fandoms, yet you won't see much of either outside of the Internet.
Keep in mind that Touhou is constantly getting referenced and contains countless of memes on big sites like Nico Nico Douga (a Japanese video-sharing site like YouTube), just like how Undertale keeps getting referenced and memed on by countless big YouTubers. They both get constant remixes by fans as well and both communities are very active till this day. They're also both massive Indie-hits made by one person (or a VERY small team in Undertale's case).

To say that Touhou is as big as Dragon Quest, an AAA title that has shaped JRPGs as a whole and still remains to be cultural phenomenon in Japan, is ludicrous. But is it big? Yeah, Undertale-big. There are still way bigger IPs in Japan that are not repped in Smash yet, that's for sure. (SERIOUSLY WHERE IS MACHI)
As someone that visits Japan regularly for family-purposes, I hope this answers some questions.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone made that joke before but...

Domo arigato, Mr. Robotto.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Banjo Kazooie = Tohou

I just threw up a little...

 

[Digital Hazard]

Look, I like Touhou, but it mostly survives by thriving on fanmade content rather than official game sales.

It's big and popular, but only in one country, and even then objectively less so than a lot of AAA stuff, and not so much by official material.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I just threw up a little...

I mean, if I wanna get REALLY picky...

I can say Touhou still gets games...

But, I like Banjo more so... I won't.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Yea dude, you're kinda instigating.
It's ok to disagree, but being a prick about it will only make you look bad.

You're expecting people in newcomer speculation, the same people who treat their opinions as undeniable facts, to not be pricks? That's a little too unrealistic man. Would be nice though