Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[GoodGrief741]

To me, it'd be a way to say "Yeah promotions aren't happening at all", though we already know for a fact that people would refuse to believe it

I don't know Gwen, if the ARMS character is a non-Spirit even I would give up on promotions.

You know, nobody is saying that Sakura is likely or she should be in Smash. Someone claimed that she shouldn't be in Smash because of how obscure her series is and people pointed out that we already got series with similar or lower sale numbers in Smash. That's it.

Since I was the one, I figure I should reply, even though N3ON already covered most of what I have to say. The total sales numbers don't tell the whole story, I had previously looked at the series' sales and I knew that no game had crossed the million mark sales-wise, so already that total was reached not through big sales but through tons of releases. Adding to that, unlike other Japan-centric series like Dragon Quest, or Touhou for that matter, Sakura Wars never did achieve much success in the West, at all. I don't think a series that's a complete non-entity outside of one country should get into Smash.

Sakura Wars is an incredibly unique series, and it's big in Japan, I respect it for that. I just have a different standard for what I'm okay with joining Smash, that doesn't mean people can't disagree with it. But I don't think I'm wrong when labeling it as obscure with those qualities.

 

[Droodle]

This is Max Brass.

He objectively has the best smile in ARMS.

That is why he should be in Super Smash Brothers Ultimate for the Nintendo Switch.

Thank you for coming to my TED TALK.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

As weird as this may sound...

The bull shark from Maneater would be an cool character for Smash. Strange I know. Either the bull shark would flop around like in the game or just swim through the air.

 

[osby]

If im honest i think Smash is the only game series that has bothered with this whole NPC situation, as i don't think other fighting games suffer from this.

Assist characters in fighting games are pretty common, actually.

I don't see it as something Smash "suffers from", as it's a pretty good way to add more characters without reducing them to stage cameo roles.

 

[Speed Weed]

Assist characters in fighting games are pretty common, actually.

I don't see it as something Smash "suffers from", as it's a pretty good way to add more characters without reducing them to stage cameo roles.

i think he meant the whole upgrade debate and not the concept of assists itself

other fighting games don't give a ****, they add whoever they damn well please even if they have a role, and their fans are completely ok with it

afaik smash is the only one with this kind of divide in its community

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

i think he meant the whole upgrade debate and not the concept of assists itself

other fighting games don't give a ****, they add whoever they damn well please even if they have a role, and their fans are completely ok with it

afaik smash is the only one with this kind of divide in its community

It doesn't help that we got AT's first in Brawl, with no DLC in sight. With Smash severely character driven as something more of a "concept behind the series" than just being a crossover alone, and how important playable characters are too(as Smash 64 didn't even have Nintendo characters at first), it is treated as a bit more important than it needs to be. Then we finally had DLC in 4 that wasn't just "the ability to share or play online"(also the first time we got patches. Man, it'd have been nice if Brawl had that option), so it's the first time the thought of a character getting a playable role while still being an NPC role as is.

Come Ultimate and we have a far bigger chance, since there's no need to return Veterans, leaving a lot more wiggle room for character options. Besides that, Sakurai has noted that some Assist characters were "those who couldn't make it in as playable", creating a giant stigma that it's somehow a really bad role. When it's not remotely demeaning either, nor meant to be.

It's insane how bad it gets. ._.;

 

[Simplythe1]

View attachment 272773

@ All Spring Man stans: Does this really look like a face you can trust? Look at that scowl. He hides it behind his colorful mask and classic "boi-yoi-yoing!" catchphrase, but there's a maniac in those eyes.

This is Spring Man Slander and I won't stand for it, look at this Chad saving a lad like the under appreciated hero he is, if you want a maniac look no further than Dr Coyle herself

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

i think he meant the whole upgrade debate and not the concept of assists itself

other fighting games don't give a ****, they add whoever they damn well please even if they have a role, and their fans are completely ok with it

afaik smash is the only one with this kind of divide in its community

Yeah that's what i meant.

Croagnurk was an Assist and yet became DLC. Android 17 was an Assist and became DLC after. Same goes for Stage cameos in games like Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter. or cameos in KOF.

Imagine if someone in the KOF community goes "oh **** Chris makes a cameo in KoF XV's Chile stage, guess he and his friends can't be DLC now". Nobody would even dare to say that. It's only Smash that suffers from this issue.

Smash has never been bothered by other limitations that show up in other fighters (Smash is the only series where the guest characters consistently come back, while in other fighting games they show up once and never again) so for Smash to limit itself with this didn't always made sense to me, especially now that we are getting an ARMS rep.

 

[Dinoman96]

I think the whole "BTFO culture" thing kinda plays it into it

A lot of people treat assist trophies and spirits as basically the ultimate humilation. Just look at all those creepy 4chan fanart of K. Rool violently eating/killing/beating up Ashley after he was confirmed as a fighter and she was confirmed as an AT.

As Goombaic said on the other page, there really are a lot of people that don't want the likes of Spring Man or Min Min upgraded because it'd supposedly give hope for spirited/assisted characters like Waluigi and Geno, both of which are frequently mocked amongst 4chan Smash discussions and they want those characters to forever remain "BTFO'd". Case in point this recent post:

 

[CaptainAmerica]

View attachment 272774
This is Max Brass.

He objectively has the best smile in ARMS.

That is why he should be in Super Smash Brothers Ultimate for the Nintendo Switch.

Thank you for coming to my TED TALK.

Now this is some reasoning I can get behind.

I expect we'll be getting most of the rest of the cast in as Spirits at this point, along with the Fighter Spirits of whoever's in. Do you think we'd get rereleases of the others, i.e. Twintelle and Twintelle (ARMS2) or whatever?

 

[Tako Tuesday]

This is Spring Man Slander and I won't stand for it, look at this Chad saving a lad like the under appreciated hero he is, if you want a maniac look no further than Dr Coyle herselfView attachment 272776

But how do we know he's not... throwing that poor child into the street? Just look at that face, that's the face of a BABY KILLER!

 

[Droodle]

I think the whole "BTFO culture" thing kinda plays it into it

A lot of people treat assist trophies and spirits as basically the ultimate humilation. Just look at all those creepy 4chan fanart of K. Rool violently eating/killing/beating up Ashley after he was confirmed as a fighter and she was confirmed as an AT.

As Goombaic said on the other page, there really are a lot of people that don't want the likes of Spring Man or Min Min upgraded because it'd supposedly give hope for spirited/assisted characters like Waluigi and Geno, both of which are frequently mocked amongst 4chan Smash discussions and they want those characters to forever remain "BTFO'd". Case in point this recent post:

View attachment 272778

Which in and of itself is a very flawed argument. Even if we get Springman or Min-Min it doesn't mean that we'll see anymore upgrades and even if we get Max Brass it doesn't mean that anyone won't get upgraded. I get that it effects people perception of certain characters chances, but the true "BTFO" would be if we get Spring-man with 0 upgrades or Max Brass with upgrades.

On a side note, Malos should have been an echo of Shulk.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

But how do we know he's not... throwing that poor child into the street? Just look at that face, that's the face of a BABY KILLER!

That would be a coincidence because I also throw objects by leaning forward and chucking them backward over the top of my head with both hands. One of these days I'm gonna throw my back out.

 

[Souless_shadow]

That would be a coincidence because I also throw objects by leaning forward and chucking them backward over the top of my head with both hands. One of these days I'm gonna throw my back out.

He could be swinging the child around before throwing to achieve maximum velocity before the child hits the car.

Does this fiend know no bounds!?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

This is Spring Man Slander and I won't stand for it, look at this Chad saving a lad like the under appreciated hero he is, if you want a maniac look no further than Dr Coyle herselfView attachment 272776

Obviously he grabbed the kid out of the car as it reversed and is about to yeet him offscreen. Look at that face!

 

[SKX31]

This is Spring Man Slander and I won't stand for it, look at this Chad saving a lad like the under appreciated hero he is, if you want a maniac look no further than Dr Coyle herself

Obviously he grabbed the kid out of the car as it reversed and is about to yeet him offscreen. Look at that face!

The worst part about that picture is the kid losing the Spring Man hat mid-swing. The kid's obviously desperately reaching for that hat. Is Spring Man really going to be so inconsiderate as to lose both fans and perfect merchandising opportunities?

 

[ZelDan]

Obviously he grabbed the kid out of the car as it reversed and is about to yeet him offscreen. Look at that face!

Oh.

Well, we could always use another villain rep with Springman then.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The SMT title for Persona was something only added outside of Japan by Atlus USA at certain point, trying to attract fans.

Fair enough.

If anything Persona is part of the Megami Tensei universe just like Digital Devil Saga or even Catherine, not Shin Megami Tensei

Well, that's what I said originally anyway.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

He could be swinging the child around before throwing to achieve maximum velocity before the child hits the car.

Does this fiend know no bounds!?

Obviously he grabbed the kid out of the car as it reversed and is about to yeet him offscreen. Look at that face!

I'm ded. lol

The worst part about that picture is the kid losing the Spring Man hat mid-swing. The kid's obviously desperately reaching for that hat. Is Spring Man really going to be so inconsiderate as to lose both fans and perfect merchandising opportunities?

Ah, but see. Now the kid has to buy a new hat. *taps temple*

 

[Idon]

Every single day someone brings up "BUT AMERICAN TITLE HAS 'SHIN MEGAMI TENSEI ON THE TITLE'" I die a little inside.

How many times to how many people do I have to explain this ****?

It's a marketing stunt by Atlus USA trying to tie all Megaten Atlus games together regardless if they're the same series or not and that system hasn't even been used in like 12 years.

 

[Opossum]

Some people do want this - I remember a whole Source Gaming article supporting the idea. Unless it's some kind of satire like "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

The concept doesn't make sense to me for a lot of reasons (removing a lot of really exciting characters, becoming unnecessarily restrictive in terms of character selection, setting the series back by roughly fifteen to twenty years, overreacting to some characters not having as positive of a reception as Sonic or Mega Man), but some people legitimately want third party characters to be removed and for Smash to go back to only having Nintendo content.

Reading those sorts of things is hilarious because of how poorly they aged. Hell, Simon and Banjo, as well as Snake's return, got explicitly name-dropped in that thing.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

A few people touched on it here before, but I think there's still a reflection to be had within the argument of how "upgrades" of Assist Trophies and Spirits would work. I've dialed back my skepticism a bit around the topic, but I'm still of the idea that it's not a "one size fits all" concept, if you will. It's not of the mindset to say, "Wow, you want THAT character?" but more along the lines of, "What are the individual likelihoods of individual characters getting upgraded?" I think that's the better question, and it doesn't necessarily require personal preference.
---
When it comes to Spring Man, there's a few things here to consider.

1. When it comes to ARMS, there's no "main character" but based on advertisements and evidently the way Nintendo looks at the characters, Spring Man and Ribbon Girl are typically at the forefront.

2. No series in Smash has ever had a non-mascot of a particular game/series as their first character to join Smash
3. First party newcomer DLC (except for , who is an exception based on originally being planned for base roster) has been promotional in nature and has, as have all series with playable characters in Smash, stuck with the protagonists or mascots for their particular games.

4. I would argue that being an NPC isn't as strong of an argument anymore considering Chrom, this entire time, is a playable character AND final Smash. Meaning, you can summon Chrom to beat up Chrom, and then after you win, can have Chrom clap for Robin and Chrom in the victory screen. Now obviously, this is an exception, but could easily apply to ARMS as well when in tandem with point #2. There's also the fact that certain AT's are turned off for certain stages, meaning Spring Man could easily be switched off when playable Spring Man is on the field...or not.
---
Now, this isn't to say that "upgrades" can't happen, but I think it has more to do with context. Spring Man as an Assist Trophy upgrade isn't the same as Waluigi as an Assist Trophy upgrade. ARMS is an IP with little content in Smash overall, and it can bring plenty that is new to the game, including a playable mascot in a mascot fighter. Waluigi is not the main character/mascot of his home series, nor is he from a series that could use a boost in the publicity generator that is Super Smash Bros. It's a very different situation.

It doesn't mean Waluigi can't get an upgrade to playable as well...it just means that Waluigi would need an alternate path to becoming an upgrade. Could popularity be it? Perhaps, however I personally don't think popularity is some "be all end all" quality that gets folks into Smash. Isaac is from a series with no playable content in Smash, but Golden Sun is a dormant series. Adding Isaac as an "upgrade" wouldn't work as well with upcoming releases or IP that Nintendo is pushing, which is what Point #3 suggests, with us only getting Byleth and Corrin as DLC newcomers from Nintendo.

Now, it's not to say that a character that doesn't fit those criteria couldn't be DLC. It could happen. But based on what we can refer to, why would it? I mean no disrespect, and I am completely open to conversation about certain picks and why they specifically could be DLC picks. But frankly, "moveset potential" and "Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't ever happen" aren't exactly amazingly strong arguments in my humble opinion. (I'd say popularity as well, but popularity can matter in tandem with other factors imho.) Those are points that could be in favor of any character and therefore don't work as an advantage to any particular character, at least from my perspective.
---
Anyway, I think the biggest factor with upgrades will depend upon how a Spring Man "upgrade" is discussed by Sakurai or a speaker in a presentation. If they don't make a big deal out of that? Maybe it won't mean anything going forward. If Sakurai says something that skirts the line of "Was an assist trophy, but I guess you could say this is a special case"? We might have to consider that as a blow to upgrades.

I don't think he'd ever outright say, "Yes, it's happening more often!" or, "Nope, sorry!", but I think inferences are key here.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I would love for either Max Brass or Dr. Coyle.

Max Brass given he'd make for an unique heavyweight character and also gives me All-Might vibes.

Dr. Coyle being we'd be getting more female villains into the roster.

 

[DarthEnderX]

trying to tie all Megaten Atlus games together regardless if they're the same series or not and hasn't been used in 12 years.

All MegaTen Atlus games are the same franchise, even if they're different spinoff series.

Persona is to Megami Tensei what Final Fantasy Tactics is to Final Fantasy.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

But frankly, "moveset potential" and "Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't ever happen" aren't exactly amazingly strong arguments in my humble opinion.

The latter argument is only strong in opposition to "it has never happened, so it won't ever" which is a pretty dumb argument in the first place.

 

[Idon]

All MegaTen Atlus games are the same franchise, even if they're different spinoff series.

Persona is to Megami Tensei what Final Fantasy Tactics is to Final Fantasy.

If you want to say "Persona is Megaten" then sure, they're under the same VERY WIDE umbrella.
If you want to say "Persona is Shin Megami Tensei" then no, that's only applicable to games that, y'know, have "Shin Megami Tensei" in the name.

Persona isn't "Final Fantasy Tactics" to "Final Fantasy," it's "Bravely Default" to "Final Fantasy." or a better example, "Nier" to "Drakengard." They share a lot of elements like enemies, spell names, weapons, and whatnot, but they're not the same series.

 

[SNEKeater]

Well, that's what I said originally anyway.

No, Megami Tensei and Shin Megami Tensei are 2 different things.
Megaten could be considered as the universe or a very wide family tree, to put it in a different way. Inside that universe you can find Shin Megami Tensei, Persona, Digital Devil Saga, Devil Summoner, and more.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

No, Megami Tensei and Shin Megami Tensei are 2 different things.
Megaten could be considered as the universe or a very wide family tree, to put it in a different way. Inside that universe you can find Shin Megami Tensei, Persona, Digital Devil Saga, Devil Summoner, and more.

So is it like a multiverse or something?

 

[Digital Hazard]

So is it like a multiverse or something?

The way I see it, look at it in the same way in that Super Mario, Donkey Kong, WarioWare/Land and Yoshi's Island all are different series in the same universe.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The way I see it, look at it in the same way in that Super Mario, Donkey Kong, WarioWare/Land and Yoshi's Island all are different series in the same universe.

Sooo they are basically the same then? I'm confused.

EDIT: Or at the very least I wouldn't see why you wouldn't want SMT content to come with Joker if it's all canonical with each other.

 

[osby]

So is it like a multiverse or something?

Probably, most of them aren't officially connected so it's mostly just a lot of different continuities that use similar themes and concepts.

Sooo they are basically the same then? I'm confused.

EDIT: Or at the very least I wouldn't see why you wouldn't want SMT content to come with Joker if it's all canonical with each other.

All Persona games take place in one continuity, same with Digital Devil Saga games, Raidou Kuzunoha games, etc. Meanwhile, pretty much all SMT games have their own timelines different from each other and other Megami Tensei games. SMT very much not canonical with Persona.

Also, most of the SMT content is created by people who no longer work in the Persona development team so I imagine it's easier to not bother with it.

 

[Digital Hazard]

Sooo they are basically the same then? I'm confused.

EDIT: Or at the very least I wouldn't see why you wouldn't want SMT content to come with Joker if it's all canonical with each other.

Compare the 2D Mario, Yoshi, Wario and Donkey Kong platformers. All share similarities and take place in the same universe, but each has their own mechanics and world themings and tones that justify them being seen as separate series.

By the looks of it, SMT, Persona, Catherine and others pretty much are the same: Take place in the universe, share similarities, but have their own stories not connected to one another and their own different mechanics and tones.

 

[SNEKeater]

So is it like a multiverse or something?

Well, maybe? I haven't played every Megaten game. I've only played Persona and Shin Megami Tensei. But it's really simple. If you have played Final Fantasy, is something like that. Each FF game is completely different from each other and the mainline games aren't related to other entries, yeah? Except for sharing elements such as enemies, recurring bosses, spells, certain creatures like the chocobos, and more.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Probably, most of them aren't officially connected so it's mostly just a lot of different continuities that use similar themes and concepts.



All Persona games take place in one continuity, same with Digital Devil Saga games, Raidou Kuzunoha games, etc. Meanwhile, pretty much all SMT games have their own timelines different from each other and other Megami Tensei games. SMT very much not canonical with Persona.

Also, most of the SMT content is created by people who no longer work in the Persona development team so I imagine it's easier to not bother with it.

Oh ok. The example of the Donkey Kong, Wario Land/WarioWare, and Yoshi's Island series confused me since their main characters are seen as Super Mario characters to the point where some question why they're labeled as being separate. That and all of them exist within Super Mario's cannon, which makes them bad examples if neither is the case for the Megaten games.

 

[GoodGrief741]

If you want to say "Persona is Megaten" then sure, they're under the same VERY WIDE umbrella.
If you want to say "Persona is Shin Megami Tensei" then no, that's only applicable to games that, y'know, have "Shin Megami Tensei" in the name.

Persona isn't "Final Fantasy Tactics" to "Final Fantasy," it's "Bravely Default" to "Final Fantasy." or a better example, "Nier" to "Drakengard." They share a lot of elements like enemies, spell names, weapons, and whatnot, but they're not the same series.

NieR and Drakengard are not considered different series, though. Or rather, they are, but nobody's going to deny that NieR is a spin-off of Drakengard. Just like nobody can deny that WarioWare is a spin-off of Mario.

I mean, it's not like people say Persona is a spin-off of SMT just because of the name. The entire concept of Persona is derived from Shin Megami Tensei if, hell, the female protagonist of the latter appears in P3. I think that places Persona firmly in SMT spin-off territory and not as just another franchise in the broader Megami Tensei family (personally I don't even consider Shin Megami Tensei to be a subseries of Megami Tensei but rather the main branch, much like Metal Gear Solid isn't a subseries within Metal Gear).

Final Fantasy Tactics is a great comparison because it's also a spin-off series that takes place in one world and one continuity whereas the main series switches between them.

 

[Ace C.R.O.S.S.]

Probably, most of them aren't officially connected so it's mostly just a lot of different continuities that use similar themes and concepts.



All Persona games take place in one continuity, same with Digital Devil Saga games, Raidou Kuzunoha games, etc. Meanwhile, pretty much all SMT games have their own timelines different from each other and other Megami Tensei games. SMT very much not canonical with Persona.

Also, most of the SMT content is created by people who no longer work in the Persona development team so I imagine it's easier to not bother with it.

SMT: if is connected to the Persona Series tough...

 

[Knight Dude]

If we're still doing the "Last game you play adds a character thing", I just finished Mega Man Xtreme again. So I guess that'd mean adding in Mega Man X, but maybe he mostly uses moves from that game? It'd be more fun to take from Multiple games either way. Though yesterday I had played Mario World for a while. Not sure how "Mario #3, but not even Paper Mario" would go down with people, other than riots I mean.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh ok. The example of the Donkey Kong, Wario Land/WarioWare, and Yoshi's Island series confused me since their main characters are seen as Super Mario characters to the point where some question why they're labeled as being separate. That and all of them exist within Super Mario's cannon, which makes them bad examples if neither is the case for the Megaten games.

It also doesn't help how far the spin-offs go.

It basically started off as Donkey Kong Arcade -> Mario Bros. -> Super Mario -> Mario Land -> Wario Land -> WarioWare for one set.

Then there's, keeping in mind the first two as normal; Super Mario -> Yoshi's Story.

And finally Donkey Kong Arcade -> Donkey Kong Country.

And that's just the core franchises. Super Mario RPG in itself spun off from Super Mario, and that basically has Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi as separate spin-offs from the Square-Enix RPG. Diddy Kong Racing could be seen as a spin-off of Mario Kart or a spin-off of Donkey Kong Country. There's also the various Wario random games like Wario World and Master of Disguise which are clearly spin-offs of Wario Land. Confusing, no?

 

[blackghost]

i'm just not for an upgrade especially when AT characters like alucard, zero, and bomberman were decided to be ATs instead of full fighters. The ATs didnt make it in, putting them in now just makes me wonder what the decisions was to include them in as Ats when you knew they were THIS close to getting in as DLC or were still in talks about fighter packs.

someone said spring man is objectively the most popular that really isnt true. epspeically when we have arms characters polls from in-game Arms (aka the people whose opinion we can trust) says its Min-min.

no matter what Arms character gets in it will set precedence: villain first, AT upgrade, or non main character first and fan favorite in instead.

lastly anyone that is still pushing the whole "nintendo ties" argument needs to go back to 2008. thats not a requirement. perhaps it mattered in the past but smash has evolved to everyone that is videogame character, redefined a genre, or has an actual large fanbase not just internet chatter.

 

[Dinoman96]

I don't know about Bomberman but I'm sure why people are so confused about characters like Zero, Alucard, Chun-Li, etc not being playable when there just hasn't been a real precedent for secondary third party characters with fully unique movesets in Smash. The closest we got are Ken and Richter, who both got in as echo fighters/clones and took considerably less time to develop than someone like Alucard or Chun.

Like if someone like Eggman was playable, then sure it'd be weird/dumb if Alucard/Zero were only ATs, but as it currently stands...