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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Cap'n Jack

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I think Banjo had more demand due to his ties with Nintendo in what is still at its core a Nintendo crossover game.

Going forward as Smash is starting to pull in characters with little to no ties to Nintendo such as Snake, Cloud, and most of all Joker, I could see a strong case for Sakura if this character truly is as big as Banjo, just for Sega and not Nintendo.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I think Banjo had more demand due to his ties with Nintendo in what is still at its core a Nintendo crossover game.

Going forward as Smash is starting to pull in characters with little to no ties to Nintendo such as Snake, Cloud, and most of all Joker, I could see a strong case for Sakura if this character truly is as big as Banjo, just for Sega and not Nintendo.
Smash fans always attempt to portray those characters as ones with strong Nintendo ties. Snake, known for the timeless classics on the ps1 and ps2? "Well, AKSHUALY the most important game in the Metal Gear franchise is the NES one nobody likes talking about." Cloud, the goddamn poster boy of the ps1? "Well, AKSHUALY Final Fantasy was on Nintendo before that, so despite Cloud only bringing content that wouldn't be on Nintendo until 2019, he has Nintendo ties". Hell, I've seen people justify Joker as an SMT rep despite not referencing SMT at all
 

Dinoman96

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I do think the Cloud thing that has some foundation as Sakurai mentioned that his inclusion was based upon the strong fan demand for there to be a Final Fantasy character in Smash. He did briefly consider other candidates like Terra but ultimately went with Cloud due to him being the most popular and well known protagonist.
 
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Slime Master

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I know next to nothing about Sakura Wars, but "she's a samurai with a mech" is all I need to know I'd be hype for Sakura. I was very disappointed when I realized Bowser Jr. is technically our first mech character.
 

Trevenant

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Question, hypothetically if the ARMS character is one that isn't present in the game in any form, what would you think that means for spirits, AT's etc at least within the realm of speculation?
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Hell, I've seen people justify Joker as an SMT rep despite not referencing SMT at all
Terry: "I may be representing my series of origin, but I brought all of my King of Fighters friends along too! Well...Except for Mai. She got dress coded. But I also brought tracks from other games as well. Including Metal Slug!

Joker "I brought a whole bunch of Persona 5 songs, and a few from the yellow and blue ones...And that one that one from the game I can't remember the color of...What's that? What about SMT? What's an SMT?"
 
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osby

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Terry: "I may be representing my series of origin, but I brought all of my King of Fighters friends along too! Well...Except for Mai. She got dress coded. But I also brought tracks from other games as well. Including Metal Slug!
Joker "I brought a whole bunch of Persona 5 songs, and a few from the yellow and blue ones...And that one that one from the game I can't remember the color of...What's that? What about SMT? What's an SMT?"
To be fair, Terry canonically is a part of King of Fighters which is a company-wide crossover by itself that covers Terry's debut series.

Persona and SMT are completely different series and only share monster designs and skill names.
 

SKX31

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Smash fans always attempt to portray those characters as ones with strong Nintendo ties. Snake, known for the timeless classics on the ps1 and ps2? "Well, AKSHUALY the most important game in the Metal Gear franchise is the NES one nobody likes talking about." Cloud, the goddamn poster boy of the ps1? "Well, AKSHUALY Final Fantasy was on Nintendo before that, so despite Cloud only bringing content that wouldn't be on Nintendo until 2019, he has Nintendo ties". Hell, I've seen people justify Joker as an SMT rep despite not referencing SMT at all
This sentiment has me wondering what would happen in case a franchise with absolutely no prior ties with Nintendo gets in (Valve's stuff, Kratos, LoL just as quick examples). Yes, I know a lot of people are partial to TF2 / Chell because of their relative similarities to Nintendo, but I can only imagine the reactions to / the mental gymnastics as a result of that.
 

Digital Hazard

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This sentiment has me wondering what would happen in case a franchise with absolutely no prior ties with Nintendo gets in (Valve's stuff, Kratos, LoL just as quick examples). Yes, I know a lot of people are partial to TF2 / Chell because of their relative similarities to Nintendo, but I can only imagine the reactions to / the mental gymnastics as a result of that.
"AKSHUALLY their company developed this obscure retro title/chip for old console, so it's okay, they have ties with Nintendo's history after all!"
 

Goombaic

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To me, it'd be a way to say "Yeah promotions aren't happening at all", though we already know for a fact that people would refuse to believe it
I doubt even Sakurai's word would convince people in that scenario. There will always be someone saying "there's no way (insert spirit) is deconfirmed. Sakurai's gonna change his mind like he did with Ridley, just watch!"
 

Garteam

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Sakura could be a really cool character in Smash, we have yet to see a deal wielder or a katana user (unless you count Eight, which is kind of a stretch). She'd also be our second character to use a mech after Bowser Jr.

How likely is she to join? She's a bit of a longshot. A fourth Sega rep is far from guaranteed and even then she has competition with Kiryu, Arle, or a second Sonic character for that role. Sakura Shinguji (the character in the first four games that most people are tossing around) also doesn't appear in the new Sakura Wars game, so she couldn't really be a promotional pick (even then, I'd be somewhat surprised if Nintendo were to choose a character to deliberately promote a game only available on an opposing console).

Question, hypothetically if the ARMS character is one that isn't present in the game in any form, what would you think that means for spirits, AT's etc at least within the realm of speculation?
Honestly, spirits/assist trophy promotions would basically be dead in the water. Sakurai would really have to go out of his way to get an ARMS character that isn't one of the 5 spirits, suggesting he does view some issue with the idea of promoting base game content.

I'd be pretty surprised if Sakurai was putting that limit on himself, though. It's not like fighting games promoting base game NPCs in the DLC is unheard of, especially when there's a high demand for that character. DBFZ made Android 17 playable after he got a signal boost from the Tournament of Power arc, despite being also being an assist for Android 18.
 

Megadoomer

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Question, hypothetically if the ARMS character is one that isn't present in the game in any form, what would you think that means for spirits, AT's etc at least within the realm of speculation?
If they went out of their way to not include any of the ARMS characters that are spirits or assist trophies, it would almost certainly mean that they're ruled out for DLC options.

I'd find that weird, since (a) it would mean ignoring basically every single popular/major ARMS character from the base game (I'd assume it would be Max Brass or Dr. Coyle, since from what I can tell, they seem to be the only major ones out of the five that were added through updates), and (b) characters having trophies already wasn't an issue for Smash 4, but on the plus side, it means that the first character from a particular series doesn't have to be the protagonist or mascot, which would significantly raise the chances for plenty of villains or side characters.
 
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osby

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How likely is she to join? She's a bit of a longshot. A fourth Sega rep is far from guaranteed and even then she has competition with Kiryu, Arle, or a second Sonic character for that role. Sakura Shinguji (the character in the first four games that most people are tossing around) also doesn't appear in the new Sakura Wars game, so she couldn't really be a promotional pick (even then, I'd be somewhat surprised if Nintendo were to choose a character to deliberately promote a game only available on an opposing console).
I think Sakura is unlikely as they come but isn't that exactly what they did when adding Joker?

Like, I don't think Joker was picked to promote anything but Nintendo obviously doesn't care about console wars that much. Hell, Sakurai outright used Banjo to promote Xbox.
 

Digital Hazard

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I doubt even Sakurai's word would convince people in that scenario. There will always be someone saying "there's no way (insert spirit) is deconfirmed. Sakurai's gonna change his mind like he did with Ridley, just watch!"
Smash fans still latch to Sakurai saying he would have liked Geno to appear in Brawl long ago while also applying he has changed his mind on other characters to justify promotions, no matter how farfetched it'd sound.

He even mentioned while cutting the Ice Climbers in Smash 4 that they tend to prioritize more active and recent series yet people still refuse to acknowledge relevancy is a factor on a number of choices, even if not the end of all (:ultkrool::ultbanjokazooie:) to justify 'X obscure character'.

Some even are ignoring now that Nintendo is choosing the DLC to say "Sakurai likes pleasing the fans", and while I don't doubt he had some inputs in choices, guy's still a freelancer who is working under a AAA company.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I doubt even Sakurai's word would convince people in that scenario. There will always be someone saying "there's no way (insert spirit) is deconfirmed. Sakurai's gonna change his mind like he did with Ridley, just watch!"
We still see this when people argue about third parties so you're right. This fanbase refuses to listen to Sakurai saying he could not give less of a **** about console wars multiple times after all
 

Digital Hazard

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Like, I don't think Joker was picked to promote anything but Nintendo obviously doesn't care about console wars that much. Hell, Sakurai outright used Banjo to promote Xbox.
I disagree on not promoting anything. Atlus loves to milk whatever current Persona instalment. Smash is the biggest crossover in gaming history. Nintendo gets a character from a highly praised and well-selling game from modern times in their game that calls attention from an audience a bit out of Nintendo fans, Persona 5 gets more exposure.
 

Garteam

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I think Sakura is unlikely as they come but isn't that exactly what they did when adding Joker?

Like, I don't think Joker was picked to promote anything but Nintendo obviously doesn't care about console wars that much. Hell, Sakurai outright used Banjo to promote Xbox.
I moreso meant the idea of Sakura as a deliberate "We want to put some light on a new release" character a-la Corrin or Byleth. Joker kinda does this with Persona 5, but I don't think promoting that game was the intention behind Joker's inclusion, whereas this hypothetical inclusion of Sakura would have promoting the new Sakura Wars game at the forefront of her inclusion.
 

Droodle

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Aight, I'm going to say it.

In terms of quality games, Rayman > Crash.
I'd even go as far as to say that the Rayman 2D platformers match or exceed Mario's. Seriously, try Origins and Legends if you haven't.

In terms of demand, they're both really close but I think Rayman has a more active fanbase; although Crash is a far bigger character overall.

That said, while I do think both of them would go for a simpler playstyle like Banjo; I still think Rayman has more room for moveset/character potential.

That's why I think Rayman should get in before Crash in terms of Smash. I still think Steve is more likely than either of them though.
 

BernkastelWitch

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Okay, at this point, I gotta ask: who even said this? Did I miss someone's vitriolic post or something?

I keep hearing people make this point, and yet I believe the number of people I've found on SB actually preaching this can be counted on one hand.
We still see this when people argue about third parties so you're right. This fanbase refuses to listen to Sakurai saying he could not give less of a **** about console wars multiple times after all
The fanbase refuses to listen to a lot of stuff Sakurai says. Remember when he said that he prefers if a character is fun than if they're recognizable and people are still using "Niche" as an argument against a character, for example?
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Honestly I think a wholly non Nintendo affiliated character like Master Chief would be the definitive all bets are off revelation in terms of potential Smash characters (other than non-gaming 4th parties). With stuff Cloud and Joker there have always been weird tenuous titles like Theatrhythm/Chain of Memories or Persona Q2 which muddied up the waters in terms of whether not not their existence played a factor. There's been just enough ambiguity and wiggle room to debate either way; but someone like a Kratos would leave very little room for argument.
 

Cutie Gwen

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The fanbase refuses to listen to a lot of stuff Sakurai says. Remember when he said that he prefers if a character is fun than if they're recognizable and people are still using "Niche" as an argument against a character, for example?
To be fair, the wording can mean "Being recognizable matters, but being fun matters just as much"
 

Garteam

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Okay, at this point, I gotta ask: who even said this? Did I miss someone's vitriolic post or something?

I keep hearing people make this point, and yet I believe the number of people I've found on SB actually preaching this can be counted on one hand.
Silly 3BitSaurus, of course there's people with this opinion! In fact, here's a picture of one:
 
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TheCJBrine

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Hold on a minute:

> Other fighting games promote characters
> Smash Bros. LORE gets quickly messed up with multiple of the same characters appearing anyway, having multiple of the same spirits, and a lot of spirits are based on a character who’s a fighter with the spirit canonically being the same character
> Assist Trophy characters are also Spirits, meaning they shouldn’t be able to assist because they’re dead
> Smash 4 Mewtwo and Lucas
> Chrom

Yet somehow promotions are seen as nearly 100% not gonna happen?

Though admittedly if the ARMS character isn’t a promotion - despite Spring Man and the spirits being the most-popular and maybe best representative of the game, meaning this would be kinda suspicious - then yeah I’d start having very little expectations for all of the characters I want except Steve, since Minecraft isn’t in Smash yet, of course.

This isn’t to say I wouldn’t like whoever the ARMS character is, though; they’re all kinda cool, just even ignoring promotion stuff I would personally like Spring Man or Min Min the best. Helix and Dr. Coyle would also be cool, though.
 
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Dinoman96

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My headcanon is that assist trophies are actually wandering spirits that temporarily restore their bodies by possessing an AT capsule

True story
 

Digital Hazard

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The fanbase refuses to listen to a lot of stuff Sakurai says. Remember when he said that he prefers if a character is fun than if they're recognizable and people are still using "Niche" as an argument against a character, for example?
I'd rather say they're very selective in what to listen and what not to.
Hold on a minute:

> Other fighting games promote characters
> Smash Bros. LORE gets quickly messed up with multiple of the same characters appearing anyway, having multiple of the same spirits, and a lot of spirits are based on a character who’s a fighter with the spirit canonically being the same character
> Assist Trophy characters are also Spirits, meaning they shouldn’t be able to assist because they’re dead
> Smash 4 Mewtwo and Lucas
> Chrom

Yet somehow promotions are seen as nearly 100% not gonna happen?

Though admittedly if the ARMS character isn’t a promotion - despite Spring Man and the spirits being the most-popular and maybe best representative of the game, meaning this would be kinda suspicious - then yeah I’d start having very little expectations for all of the characters I want except Steve, since Minecraft isn’t in Smash yet, of course.

This isn’t to say I wouldn’t like whoever the ARMS character is, though; they’re all kinda cool, just even ignoring promotion stuff I would personally like Spring Man or Min Min the best. Helix and Dr. Coyle would also be cool, though.
Thing is that we don't know precisely how the character selection process works, and for those mentioned ones there can be loopholes added to counter.

>No promotion has been done in the same game; Little Mac, Isabelle, Charizard, Dark Samus, Palutena, etc., weren't promoted in the same game they debuted.
>None of the multiple spirits of one character represents the same thing, it's one thing to have a spirit of Mario as a baby and another using a rock power up.
>Never heard this one admittedly, so dunno.
>Veterans whose data could be carried over, especially easier with the latter, and no DLC in Ultimate so far was an upgrade, unless you really want to count a 8-bit Piranha Plant in Mushroom Kingdom stage
>Chrom's an Echo who was likely added late in development by taking advantage of them needing to model him for Robin's FS anyway, as evidenced by some animations in his model being a bit off and initially using the regular Fire Emblem victory theme instead of the Awakening one Lucina and Robin use.

Now I am not saying promotions can't happen, nor I am affirming any of these are really factors since we can't truly know, but it's understandable a number of people just don't think promotions are going to happen.
 

Rie Sonomura

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I'd rather say they're very selective in what to listen and what not to.

Thing is that we don't know precisely how the character selection process works, and for those mentioned ones there can be loopholes added to counter.

>No promotion has been done in the same game; Little Mac, Isabelle, Charizard, Dark Samus, Palutena, etc., weren't promoted in the same game they debuted.
>None of the multiple spirits of one character represents the same thing, it's one thing to have a spirit of Mario as a baby and another using a rock power up.
>Never heard this one admittedly, so dunno.
>Veterans whose data could be carried over, especially easier with the latter, and no DLC in Ultimate so far was an upgrade, unless you really want to count a 8-bit Piranha Plant in Mushroom Kingdom stage
>Chrom's an Echo who was likely added late in development by taking advantage of them needing to model him for Robin's FS anyway, as evidenced by some animations in his model being a bit off and initially using the regular Fire Emblem victory theme instead of the Awakening one Lucina and Robin use.

Now I am not saying promotions can't happen, nor I am affirming any of these are really factors since we can't truly know, but it's understandable a number of people just don't think promotions are going to happen.
Didn’t they later patch in the Awakening fanfare for Chrom though?
 

Mushroomguy12

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To me, it'd be a way to say "Yeah promotions aren't happening at all", though we already know for a fact that people would refuse to believe it
On the flip side of the coin, if the ARMS character WAS a character that was present in the game, there would still be hardcore anti-promotion people screaming that it was the exception and not the rule and there would certainly be no more promotions left.
 
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Digital Hazard

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Didn’t they later patch in the Awakening fanfare for Chrom though?
Yep, but it wasn't on the game's launch for unknown reasons, thus people tend to assume Chrom was rushed in development, along what I said before plus still being part of Robin's Final Smash and appearing in one of their vistory poses like in Smash 4.

Again, this is an assumption, but it doesn't looks fully unbelieavable.
 

Opossum

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>Chrom's an Echo who was likely added late in development by taking advantage of them needing to model him for Robin's FS anyway, as evidenced by some animations in his model being a bit off and initially using the regular Fire Emblem victory theme instead of the Awakening one Lucina and Robin use.
Please stop conflating "added late" with "completed late." Those are two very different things, and Chrom's situation absolutely fits the latter more than the former.

Biggest example of the difference was in Brawl. Wolf was completed last, but Sonic was added last.
 

Megadoomer

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Silly 3BitSaurus, of course there's people with this opinion! In fact, here's a picture of one:
Some people do want this - I remember a whole Source Gaming article supporting the idea. Unless it's some kind of satire like "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

The concept doesn't make sense to me for a lot of reasons (removing a lot of really exciting characters, becoming unnecessarily restrictive in terms of character selection, setting the series back by roughly fifteen to twenty years, overreacting to some characters not having as positive of a reception as Sonic or Mega Man), but some people legitimately want third party characters to be removed and for Smash to go back to only having Nintendo content.
 
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3BitSaurus

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This sentiment has me wondering what would happen in case a franchise with absolutely no prior ties with Nintendo gets in (Valve's stuff, Kratos, LoL just as quick examples). Yes, I know a lot of people are partial to TF2 / Chell because of their relative similarities to Nintendo, but I can only imagine the reactions to / the mental gymnastics as a result of that.
As someone who wants a LoL character in, I've pretty much accepted that not everyone will be a fan. But that's alright. Not everyone, especially the casual Smash fanbase, which outnumbers us, should feel forced to try something just because a character is there. Ultimately, it's up to them.

The fanbase refuses to listen to a lot of stuff Sakurai says. Remember when he said that he prefers if a character is fun than if they're recognizable and people are still using "Niche" as an argument against a character, for example?
Uh... didja mean to quote me on the RTC thread?
 

osby

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On the flip side of the coin, if the ARMS character WAS a character that was present in the game, there would be hardcore anti-promotion people screaming that it was the exception and not the rule and there would certainly be no more promotions left.
"ARMS is an exception" is oversimplifying things but Nintendo adding a Switch title as DLC doesn't necessarily mean they are focusing on satisfying old fan requests.

Rather than turning the promotion argument into a "us vs them" debate, it makes more sense to look at which characters might benefit from this.
 

Digital Hazard

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Please stop conflating "added late" with "completed late." Those are two very different things, and Chrom's situation absolutely fits the latter more than the former.

Biggest example of the difference was in Brawl. Wolf was completed last, but Sonic was added last.
Wasn't Wolf a very late addition? After all he's not in SSE.
 

osby

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Some people do want this - I remember a whole Source Gaming article supporting the idea. Unless it's some kind of satire like "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

The concept doesn't make sense to me for a lot of reasons (removing a lot of really exciting characters, becoming unnecessarily restrictive in terms of character selection, setting the series back by roughly fifteen to twenty years, overreacting to one character not having as positive of a reception as Sonic or Mega Man), but some people legitimately want third party characters to be removed and for Smash to go back to only having Nintendo content.
I love how all "Sakurai will cut every character I dislike" comments from Smash 4 period aged like milk:

Can the team really afford to try and include third party characters, dealing with the legality and the extra content needed for these series? In fact, the easiest way to maintain a large roster is cut third party characters from the mix.
 
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3BitSaurus

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Some people do want this - I remember a whole Source Gaming article supporting the idea. Unless it's some kind of satire like "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
I mean... considering how often this kinda thing gets conflated with just "wanting more first parties", you'd think it was more than just a handful of individuals. But it's not.

And the point was made during a specific event in the RTC thread, when no one had done so, hence my post.

Regarding Sakura Wars, there's one last point I want to make: it has more contenders to go against than Banjo did. At best, the bear and bird only had to go against Halo and Minecraft - tough, for sure, but then look at how many Sega IPs are left in comparison. Puyo Puyo, Yakuza, Phantasy Star, Shenmue, Monkey Ball, etc. Question is: would Sakura Wars have an advantage over all of these?
 

TheCJBrine

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I'd rather say they're very selective in what to listen and what not to.

Thing is that we don't know precisely how the character selection process works, and for those mentioned ones there can be loopholes added to counter.

>No promotion has been done in the same game; Little Mac, Isabelle, Charizard, Dark Samus, Palutena, etc., weren't promoted in the same game they debuted.
>None of the multiple spirits of one character represents the same thing, it's one thing to have a spirit of Mario as a baby and another using a rock power up.
>Never heard this one admittedly, so dunno.
>Veterans whose data could be carried over, especially easier with the latter, and no DLC in Ultimate so far was an upgrade, unless you really want to count a 8-bit Piranha Plant in Mushroom Kingdom stage
>Chrom's an Echo who was likely added late in development by taking advantage of them needing to model him for Robin's FS anyway, as evidenced by some animations in his model being a bit off and initially using the regular Fire Emblem victory theme instead of the Awakening one Lucina and Robin use.

Now I am not saying promotions can't happen, nor I am affirming any of these are really factors since we can't truly know, but it's understandable a number of people just don't think promotions are going to happen.
Yeah, these all make sense. I do understand why people don’t expect them, though they do seem to be written off a little too easily - then there are some rude people pushing “they’re disconfirmed” as hard fact outside of these boards :S

Regarding the second point, though, while they may represent different things about a character, they’re still canonically the same, so it’s still weird that they’re somehow spirits. There’s also Classic Pit, Super Sonic, and K. Rool’s alter-egos.
 
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