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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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osby

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Regarding Sakura Wars, there's one last point I want to make: it has more contenders to go against than Banjo did. At best, the bear and bird only had to go against Halo and Minecraft - tough, for sure, but then look at how many Sega IPs are left in comparison. Puyo Puyo, Yakuza, Phantasy Star, Shenmue, Monkey Ball, etc. Question is: would Sakura Wars have an advantage over all of these?
You know, nobody is saying that Sakura is likely or she should be in Smash. Someone claimed that she shouldn't be in Smash because of how obscure her series is and people pointed out that we already got series with similar or lower sale numbers in Smash. That's it.

Also, Banjo wasn't going against anything. He was chosen for fan demand and possibly Nintendo connections. It's not like Sakurai pits all characters from a company against each other to decide which one will get in. That's why the "reps" mentality is so unhelpful to the speculation.
 

DarthEnderX

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Smash fans always attempt to portray those characters as ones with strong Nintendo ties. Snake, known for the timeless classics on the ps1 and ps2? "Well, AKSHUALY the most important game in the Metal Gear franchise is the NES one nobody likes talking about." Cloud, the goddamn poster boy of the ps1? "Well, AKSHUALY Final Fantasy was on Nintendo before that, so despite Cloud only bringing content that wouldn't be on Nintendo until 2019, he has Nintendo ties". Hell, I've seen people justify Joker as an SMT rep despite not referencing SMT at all
Yeah, those were all me.

And I certainly wasn't suggesting that Snake, Cloud, or Joker's Nintendo ties were STRONGER than their Playstation ties, just that their franchises ALSO have strong Nintendo ties. Strong like "Yeah, the first half-a-dozen games of that franchise were on Nintendo consoles". Which is pretty goddamn strong. They all just happened to get popular in the West on Playstation.

Persona and SMT are completely different series and only share monster designs and skill names.
Hmm...
1590511740643.png
 
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Rie Sonomura

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Posting from Octoling thread:
>Smash Bros and ARMS are prizes
>there’s an Octoling icon (except it’s the enemy ones from 1 & 2’s Hero Modes and not the playable ones from Octo Expansion, but still)

the plot thickens
it could just be a coincidence. Or....
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I honestly need a source on that he was part of the original plan.
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/15390/sakurai-speaks-on-brawl-character-development

"The first interesting tidbit he dropped during his talk was that the final character roster was essentially completed when the design document was finalized on July 7, 2005. That was, the character list was done 2½ years before the game was completed. Sakurai said the reasoning behind this was that he knew making additions later during development would be very difficult.

To prevent this master plan from becoming a problem in the long run, Sakurai's design was constructed with the goal of trying to include as much of it as possible within the allotted time. In that way, late cuts could be made without sacrificing the production schedule. The only exception to this plan was the late addition of Sonic. He was not added into the game until some time last year, though Sakurai didn't elaborate on how they incorporated him into the game relatively quickly."
 

3BitSaurus

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You know, nobody is saying that Sakura is likely or she should be in Smash. Someone claimed that she shouldn't be in Smash because of how obscure her series is and people pointed out that we already got series with similar or lower sale numbers in Smash. That's it.

Also, Banjo wasn't going against anything. He was chosen for fan demand and possibly Nintendo connections. It's not like Sakurai pits all characters from a company against each other to decide which one will get in. That's why the "reps" mentality is so unhelpful to the speculation.
The original poster was comparing her circumstances to Banjo. I'm only pointing out how they're not similar situations at all. That's it.

Banjo didn't go against anyone from the perspective of the selection itself. But there are reasons for that. I'm only questioning whether or not Sakura would have these reasons as well - an answer I'm legitimately curious about.

I never said anything about the selection being made per company. Please don't put words in my mouth.
 

Trevenant

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Hold on a minute:

> Other fighting games promote characters
> Smash Bros. LORE gets quickly messed up with multiple of the same characters appearing anyway, having multiple of the same spirits, and a lot of spirits are based on a character who’s a fighter with the spirit canonically being the same character
> Assist Trophy characters are also Spirits, meaning they shouldn’t be able to assist because they’re dead
> Smash 4 Mewtwo and Lucas
> Chrom

Yet somehow promotions are seen as nearly 100% not gonna happen?

Though admittedly if the ARMS character isn’t a promotion - despite Spring Man and the spirits being the most-popular and maybe best representative of the game, meaning this would be kinda suspicious - then yeah I’d start having very little expectations for all of the characters I want except Steve, since Minecraft isn’t in Smash yet, of course.

This isn’t to say I wouldn’t like whoever the ARMS character is, though; they’re all kinda cool, just even ignoring promotion stuff I would personally like Spring Man or Min Min the best. Helix and Dr. Coyle would also be cool, though.
If you meant me, i would just like to say I absolutely tried my best to not get people to misinterpret what I meant by adding hypothetical and such due to how it is quite improbable that it's one that isn't present in game. I'm still fairly confident it's Spring Man. I haven't really seen anyone say they won't or can't happen unless I missed a user
 

SKX31

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Didn’t they later patch in the Awakening fanfare for Chrom though?
They did, yes, in Patch 3.0.0. They also cleaned up his on-screen appearance and clapping animation in 3.1.0 (the sheath wasn't properly on).

Before that (2.0.0.) they nerfed Chrombos by reducing Up-B's knockback. At launch it was low-key busted and competitive people gave Chrom a lot of flak because of that.
 
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TheCJBrine

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If you meant me, i would just like to say I absolutely tried my best to not get people to misinterpret what I meant by adding hypothetical and such due to how it is quite improbable that it's one that isn't present in game. I'm still fairly confident it's Spring Man. I haven't really seen anyone say they won't or can't happen unless I missed a user
Oh, no, I saw your post, but I was speaking in general for everyone. Your post alongside others did kinda cause me to think about it further I guess, and add the ARMS part about how I’d feel if the character wasn’t already ingame, since that was all you were asking, but I was still speaking in general to everyone and I knew you were just asking the hypothetical thing :p

Also, I know no one here has been saying “they 100% can’t happen,” but some do seem to write them off as being close to that, which is why I said “near 100%,” and some people outside of these boards do claim “100% not happening” with some trying to drill it into people’s heads :S
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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I haven't really seen anyone say they won't or can't happen unless I missed a user
I have seen exactly one person who was like "lul you think we're getting Assist Trophy promotions" and everyone else was like "dude. Spring Man is the most likely choice at face value. You can't deny it's a possibility".
 
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Rie Sonomura

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You know in hindsight

I joked, “What if Spring Man were the first AT promotion in the same game instead of Waluigi or Isaac”

now to think it actually might happen...

still backing Min Min more tho
 

Dinoman96

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4chan threads about Smash/the ARMS character still seem pretty convinced that spirits and ATs still deconfirm

So many of them keep pushing for **** like Max Brass just because he's not an AT/spirit
 

NonSpecificGuy

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Posting from Octoling thread:


it could just be a coincidence. Or....
Mario Tennis Aces is a prize too though. This is definitely a coincidence. If not just people looking to far into things and pulling the usual “THIS MUST MEAN SMASH...” thing.
 

Goombaic

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Mario Tennis Aces is a prize too though. This is definitely a coincidence. If not just people looking to far into things and pulling the usual “THIS MUST MEAN SMASH...” thing.
I'm pretty sure it's a yearly tournament anyway, so there's not much meaning to it.
So many of them keep pushing for **** like Max Brass just because he's not an AT/spirit
Also because they hate Waluigi and Geno.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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4chan threads about Smash/the ARMS character still seem pretty convinced that spirits and ATs still deconfirm

So many of them keep pushing for **** like Max Brass just because he's not an AT/spirit
He's also the Champion of the tournaments and the host for the in-game story.

Which basically makes him important to the current storyline, just like Dr. Coyle is. So... it's not necessarily just cause lol no AT/Spirit. If he wasn't important at all, they'd just go after Dr. Coyle then. The only two who play a role in the story that isn't a "whoever you choose as a protagonist".
 

Goombaic

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He's also the Champion of the tournaments and the host for the in-game story.

Which basically makes him important to the current storyline, just like Dr. Coyle is. So... it's not necessarily just cause lol no AT/Spirit. If he wasn't important at all, they'd just go after Dr. Coyle then. The only two who play a role in the story that isn't a "whoever you choose as a protagonist".
They also love bringing up that this has been the title screen since the last update.
 

NintenZ

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I'd say it's pretty obscure outside Japan. It's only had two titles localized, ten years apart, and it would be generous to say the first one "underperformed". Honestly I'm not sure how you can argue it isn't obscure outside Japan.

Within Japan it's definitely another story, there it's not obscure, but I wouldn't hold out hope for a series with as little western recognition as this one.

And it's nowhere near as prevalent as Dragon Quest is in the west (or the east), before someone makes that comparison.
Niche in the West sure, but when has that stopped other series before?

Fire Emblem never had a game released overseas before Melee, but the characters were still included regardless and it helped jumpstart the series coming overseas starting with the 7th game, Lucas is in Smash despite Mother 3 not being released here and likely won't be released here for a long time, and both of Bayonetta's games underperformed (This is taking into account the first game selling over 1m copies) and she still made it in as the alleged Ballot winner nonetheless.

And considering Sakura Wars has gotten a cafe, a dedicated store, stage shows, multiple TV series, radio dramas, a theatrical film, a **** ton of crossover appearances, and is still influential on games to this day like Persona, Mass Effect, and even modern Fire Emblem itself, I'd say the impact the series has had is pretty notable, hell it was even one of the first SEGA IPs to come to Nintendo systems and had a Game Boy Color model because of it's sheer popularity.

My thought process is that Smash could be used as a tool to help the series overseas as it's worked for many other franchises, SEGA seems to be really pushing the series right now, correct? Something like Smash I imagine which has a huge install base and loads of other beloved gaming franchises would absolutely help boost it into the limelight here, while it would probably be generally accepted by Japanese audiences. I think as long as they market her well and she's fun to play that's what matters most.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Tbh if you do a Resi character with more limited resources like Banjo but for every special that can be pretty fun. The longer you stay alive the lower the amount of ammo you'll typically have
So Robin then? :troll:

That wasn't quite what I meant (it was more of a jab at heavies), but I don't disagree with you. Another cool thing you could do is instead of sticking depleted resources on a timer like Robin, force the character to search for resources. You could even make it so that the Special Moves change depending on what you find, though that might be a bit too complicated.
 

TheCJBrine

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They also love bringing up that this has been the title screen since the last update.
After seeing this and realizing their story importance thanks to other posts and remembering some stuff from the trial, I think I'm gonna still have a good amount of hope for characters like Geno if either of these two are chosen. Would still prefer Spring Man or Min Min though.
 

SNEKeater

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Aight, I'm going to say it.

In terms of quality games, Rayman > Crash.
I'd even go as far as to say that the Rayman 2D platformers match or exceed Mario's. Seriously, try Origins and Legends if you haven't.

In terms of demand, they're both really close but I think Rayman has a more active fanbase; although Crash is a far bigger character overall.

That said, while I do think both of them would go for a simpler playstyle like Banjo; I still think Rayman has more room for moveset/character potential.

That's why I think Rayman should get in before Crash in terms of Smash. I still think Steve is more likely than either of them though.
It's your opinion and it's okay, but I'm not expecting characters getting in before others because their games are better.
If you ask me, while fun, the 3D Rayman games aren't really incredible. Legends and Origins are really good, especially Legends, which is a great game in my opinion.

For me, between the Crash OG trilogy and 3D Rayman games I'd take the first ones any day. Easy decision for me.

Yeah, those were all me.

And I certainly wasn't suggesting that Snake, Cloud, or Joker's Nintendo ties were STRONGER than their Playstation ties, just that their franchises ALSO have strong Nintendo ties. Strong like "Yeah, the first half-a-dozen games of that franchise were on Nintendo consoles". Which is pretty goddamn strong. They all just happened to get popular in the West on Playstation.


Hmm...
View attachment 272769
The SMT title for Persona was something only added outside of Japan by Atlus USA at certain point, trying to attract fans. If I'm not mistaken putting SMT in games beyond mainline SMT titles began after Nocturne, which was an acclaimed game and the most popular entry at the moment. If I remember correctly Digital Devil Saga and Persona 3 were the first games to be renamed, having "Shin Megami Tensei" in the title.

If we go back to the first Playstation, you can see that Persona 1 or Persona 2 IS and EP never had SMT as part of their names:



If anything Persona is part of the Megami Tensei universe just like Digital Devil Saga or even Catherine, not Shin Megami Tensei (SMT: Nocturne, SMT IV, SMT IV: Apocalypse...)
 
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Hinata

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He's also the Champion of the tournaments and the host for the in-game story.

Which basically makes him important to the current storyline, just like Dr. Coyle is. So... it's not necessarily just cause lol no AT/Spirit. If he wasn't important at all, they'd just go after Dr. Coyle then. The only two who play a role in the story that isn't a "whoever you choose as a protagonist".
If we're talkin' importance to the story, I feel like Dr. Coyle has more relevance. Like, yeah, Max Brass is the champion and host of the ARMS tourney, but that's really all he has going for him. He's just the final boss, and even then he doesn't hold that title in the current build of the game unless you play on lower difficulties.

Meanwhile, Dr. Coyle has been getting pushed hardcore ever since she was added. A lot of unexplained questions in the ARMS lore were given the explanation of "she did it", they recently added backstory to basically everything in the form of scientific notes written by her, and she's the reason 3 of the fighters in the roster even exist.

Don't get me wrong, both Max Brass and Dr. Coyle have relevance to the story in their own way, as they're both the only constants in everyone's route, but Dr. Coyle edges out the commish in my eyes.

i fully admit i'm biased towards coyle though
 

Digital Hazard

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Regarding the second point, though, while they may represent different things about a character, they’re still canonically the same, so it’s still weird that they’re somehow spirits. There’s also Classic Pit, Super Sonic, and K. Rool’s alter-egos.
Thing is that they are still representing a different aspect of the character, while the default Fighter Spirit, the one that can only be obtained in Classic and the Shop, is a representation of the character in their playable state, and thus are only aesthetic and unusable, being able to swap them for their Ultimate artwork.

One thing is to have a spirit of Bayonetta when she was a child as a support spirit. It's another to have two Fighter Spirits of her representing her playable states as costumes from her games and Smash.

This along Piranha Plant not having a spirit in the base game is the main reason why so many have jumped to saying that spirits deconfirm, because no exception has been seen so far, albeit it could still change in the future. We will likely know when we get the ARMS character or later.

And no, the Cuphead spirits don't count, swapping one character for another means nothing when, let's say, Rex could be upgraded and he appears in his spirit fight; it's pretty much insignificant.
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/15390/sakurai-speaks-on-brawl-character-development

"The first interesting tidbit he dropped during his talk was that the final character roster was essentially completed when the design document was finalized on July 7, 2005. That was, the character list was done 2½ years before the game was completed. Sakurai said the reasoning behind this was that he knew making additions later during development would be very difficult.

To prevent this master plan from becoming a problem in the long run, Sakurai's design was constructed with the goal of trying to include as much of it as possible within the allotted time. In that way, late cuts could be made without sacrificing the production schedule. The only exception to this plan was the late addition of Sonic. He was not added into the game until some time last year, though Sakurai didn't elaborate on how they incorporated him into the game relatively quickly."
Thanks for this.
 
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Hinata

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dbr9sxm-7e6a01b6-0ffe-4fec-9ea3-cbe67692c9c6.png

@ All Spring Man stans: Does this really look like a face you can trust? Look at that scowl. He hides it behind his colorful mask and classic "boi-yoi-yoing!" catchphrase, but there's a maniac in those eyes.
 

TheCJBrine

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If we're talkin' importance to the story, I feel like Dr. Coyle has more relevance. Like, yeah, Max Brass is the champion and host of the ARMS tourney, but that's really all he has going for him. He's just the final boss, and even then he doesn't hold that title in the current build of the game unless you play on lower difficulties.

Meanwhile, Dr. Coyle has been getting pushed hardcore ever since she was added. A lot of unexplained questions in the ARMS lore were given the explanation of "she did it", they recently added backstory to basically everything in the form of scientific notes written by her, and she's the reason 3 of the fighters in the roster even exist.

Don't get me wrong, both Max Brass and Dr. Coyle have relevance to the story in their own way, as they're both the only constants in everyone's route, but Dr. Coyle edges out the commish in my eyes.

i fully admit i'm biased towards coyle though
Doesn't Coyle have some sort of grudge against Max Brass? Sounds like there's some sort of background between them.

Thing is that they are still representing a different aspect of the character, while the default Fighter Spirit, the one that can only be obtained in Classic and the Shop, is a representation of the character in their playable state, and thus are only aesthetic and unusable, being able to swap them for their Ultimate artwork.

One thing is to have a spirit of Bayonetta when she was a child as a support spirit. It's another to have two Fighter Spirits of her representing her playable states as costumes from her games and Smash.

This along Piranha Plant not having a spirit in the base game is the main reason why so many have jumped to saying that spirits deconfirm, because no exception has been seen so far, albeit it could still change in the future. We will likely know when we get the ARMS character or later.
That makes sense, though Super Sonic is technically playable temporarily.

I don't think basegame spirits really matter at all, though. I think it'd be weird if they did. Piranha Plant didn't have one because he was being developed alongside the basegame, or at least some of it - and some characters still have other artwork they could use, or they could even just have their Ultimate renders like Cloud, Wii Fit Trainer and Robin.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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...she's the reason 3 of the fighters in the roster even exist.
That's impressive. I never knew someone could be the reason for their own existence. :troll:

@ All Spring Man stans: Does this really look like a face you can trust? Look at that scowl. He hides it behind his colorful mask and classic "boi-yoi-yoing!" catchphrase, but there's a maniac in those eyes.
Oh he trustworthy. You just pissed him off.
 

osby

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View attachment 272773

@ All Spring Man stans: Does this really look like a face you can trust? Look at that scowl. He hides it behind his colorful mask and classic "boi-yoi-yoing!" catchphrase, but there's a maniac in those eyes.
Keep saying how bad my taste in characters is, it only makes my opinions worse.
 

Hinata

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Doesn't Coyle have some sort of grudge against Max Brass? Sounds like there's some sort of background between them.
She does. Every character has a picture at the end of the arcade mode route, showing what they were doing after winning the ARMS Grand Prix.

Dr Coyle's CG is a ripped up picture of her and Max Brass hanging out taped back together.
 

Goombaic

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What they're neglecting to tell you though, is that literally all of the DLC characters got a title screen so...

I think the point is that the title screen typically showed a "main character" against the newcomer. Spring Man against Max Brass, Ribbon Girl against Lola Pop, Ninjara against Misango, and Max Brass against Dr Coyle. I don't believe little things like that make Max Brass more likely and they're probably ****posts as well, but it is what they say.
 

Hinata

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That's impressive. I never knew someone could be the reason for their own existence. :troll:
Helix and Springtron were made by her, and she's the reason Master Mummy was revived.

So, 3 characters.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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If we're talkin' importance to the story, I feel like Dr. Coyle has more relevance. Like, yeah, Max Brass is the champion and host of the ARMS tourney, but that's really all he has going for him. He's just the final boss, and even then he doesn't hold that title in the current build of the game unless you play on lower difficulties.

Meanwhile, Dr. Coyle has been getting pushed hardcore ever since she was added. A lot of unexplained questions in the ARMS lore were given the explanation of "she did it", they recently added backstory to basically everything in the form of scientific notes written by her, and she's the reason 3 of the fighters in the roster even exist.

Don't get me wrong, both Max Brass and Dr. Coyle have relevance to the story in their own way, as they're both the only constants in everyone's route, but Dr. Coyle edges out the commish in my eyes.

i fully admit i'm biased towards coyle though
Oh, I think her shot is a bit better, though to be honest I think the Mascots are the most likely right now.

But yeah, technically speaking Max Brass is supposed to be a previous protagonist since he's the "winner", so that could also be why some may gravitate towards him to justify the mascot/protagonist first rule too. Thankfully I don't remember anyone specifically doing that anyway.

Besides, you have 4 pretty cool character options. And to answer your other post, I think Spring Man is a trustworthy guy. I generally prefer a mascot or main character(protagonist/villain/player character) for the first rep. I mostly lean towards the latter than the former, but there are exceptions. Gameplay is a factor too. So you have Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Max Brass, and Dr. Coyle as all unique viable characters that could get in.

...I could go on, but eh, I don't think the others really have much of a chance. I don't feel popularity is enough to get a first character for a franchise in. Unless popularity made them the de facto mascot before they the franchise was looked into(like Nightmare and Fulgore are for Soul Calibur and Killer Instinct within the first few years of release).
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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But yeah, technically speaking Max Brass is supposed to be a previous protagonist since he's the "winner", so that could also be why some may gravitate towards him to justify the mascot/protagonist first rule too. Thankfully I don't remember anyone specifically doing that anyway.
It's also worth noting that if ARMS 2 is a thing, there's a chance that Min Min will take his spot as champion if the last Party Crash Bash was supposed to be like the last Splatfest.
 

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That makes sense, though Super Sonic is technically playable temporarily.

I don't think basegame spirits really matter at all, though. I think it'd be weird if they did. Piranha Plant didn't have one because he was being developed alongside the basegame, or at least some of it - and some characters still have other artwork they could use, or they could even just have their Ultimate renders like Cloud, Wii Fit Trainer and Robin.
I don't think that counts much since it's just a Final Smash and barely... Albeit the fight against him is Sonic spamming his Final Smash.

And yeah, it's why I think it could change in this FP, I just always try to keep my expectations low, despite being a Shantae and Bandana Dee supporter myself.

P.S. Robin's a weird case... I don't get why they didn't use their Awakening in-game portraits like they did with Garon and Tharja...
 
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Phoenix Douchebag

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I'd be pretty surprised if Sakurai was putting that limit on himself, though. It's not like fighting games promoting base game NPCs in the DLC is unheard of, especially when there's a high demand for that character. DBFZ made Android 17 playable after he got a signal boost from the Tournament of Power arc, despite being also being an assist for Android 18.
Remember when Pokken Tournament just put an Assist Pokémon into playable status in DLC?

If im honest i think Smash is the only game series that has bothered with this whole NPC situation, as i don't think other fighting games suffer from this.
 

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If I'm being honest, I think that if we don't get an AT promotion, Max Brass is the most likely. He's the in-universe mascot of ARMS, making him an important figure, and the closest we could get to a "main character" if we don't count those who appear in the game already.

In terms of his playstyle, his gimmick of buffing up at low health means he could switch to a heavy weight at low health, making him harder to kill, and having perma charged ARMS making him more deadly.

Compared to someone like Dr. Coyle, whose gimmicks invole levitating and getting a 3rd arm, Max Brass' gimmick I feel is more "pure", which I think would be better to represent ARMS in it's purest form.
 
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