Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

No extra information is needed. This game has failed.


I think the mimic fighter as a concept could be really cool.

*looks up the characters and finds out they just use the moveset of other characters at random*

But that...That's a waste of a slot. Did they not know the random button existed or something?

Technically they’re different from random in that they switch their fighting style each round

‘d

 

[Garteam]

Generally, it's true that the first character in a wave of Smash newcomers does signal a greater theme in that wave of newcomers:
- Adding characters that did well in the Smash 2 poll, while also experimenting with unconventional choices for a fighting game.
- Filling out the casts of the series already in Smash.
- Giving the spotlight to both Nintendo franchises without characters and characters gained relevance after Brawl's release.
- Bringing back cut veterans and showcasing big, iconic characters.
- Adding fan favourites that were highly requested among the core fanbase.
- Introducing more third parties that hail from generally smaller franchises that what had been seen before.

However, the important thing to note as that all of these themes can only be seen in hindsight. We can't say that Meta Knight is part of the theme of adding supporting characters without confirming that theme through additions like Diddy Kong, Zero Suit Samus, and King Dedede. Likewise, it's very easy to assume that because the first character fits this theme, those that follow must also fit the theme, when that's not true. Many thought Inkling would signify that we'd see more modern Nintendo characters like Rex, when that didn't happen. Likewise, many assumed that Joker's inclusion would also mean that the Fighter's Pass would mostly (or entirely) be recently created third parties with limited Nintendo connections. The following three third parties were all legacy characters, with 2 have strong historical ties to Nintendo and the third recently connecting with the Big N in the Switch's early days.

So, what does this mean for ARMS and Smash Speculation? ARMS likely does represent some greater theme for the roster, but we have no idea what that pattern that is. The ARMS character could be part of a trend of upgrading assists, upgrading spirits, generally more Nintendo, a greater emphasis on Switch content, and many more possible ideas. Alternatively, it could be multiple of these or none of these. The beginning of a speculation period requires a lot of guess work this early in the game. As such, I think proposing "big leap" characters that require certain conditions to be valid is fine and should be worth discussing beyond saying "yeah, but you're just assuming that". At the same time, nothing is guaranteed (beyond ARMS, of course), so hyping responsibly and not becoming permanently wed to certain ideas is also important.

 

[Schnee117]

Oh man, that'd be cool. I remember seeing that and getting so hype about it. I love Soul Calibur and Assassin's Creed.

But ooh, the pain playing that game. SCV was a steaming pile of ****.

Seriously, I've never seen a fighting game go well where the premise was "Let's cut 90% of the roster and replace them with younger, more hyperactive expies!" And then not only that, they combined that with "We had a story mode, but we ran out of time and chopped off half the story" and "You know how fun mimic fighters are? Here are *three* of them. One even used to have a unique moveset, but we gave it to this random kid so he could be a mimic! But it makes sense because now he's a *weapon master* and can use all the weapons!" and "This is the Good Guy. You know he is because we keep talking about him. Pay no attention to how many people he just killed or that he has the personality of a plank, he's the Good Guy and we all love him. Oh, and we'll make a second version of him to serve as a clone of this other beloved character we cut since y'all didn't like her right?"

[shudder]

At least SCVI brought the franchise back (and the first thing they did was cut all of the expies and reinstate the original characters). Pity they're releasing DLC characters on a slower timescale than Smash.

God I remember all the stuff about Raphael actually being Nightmare's host or something and Viola possibly being Amy which was cool **** that didn't come to fruition and then that Taki got cut because she'd be an older woman which is stupid. Patroklos being a butt monkey in a few FGC groups I'm in is fun though lol

Man, Ezio deserved a better SC game to be in.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

God I remember all the stuff about Raphael actually being Nightmare's host or something and Viola possibly being Amy and then that Taki got cut because she'd be an older woman. Patroklos being a butt monkey in a few FGC groups I'm in is fun though lol

God, Ezio deserved a better SC game to be in.

Everyone use to rip on Patroklos so much, literally no one liked him lol. Viola was cool, I perfect her over Amy tbh.

also you have this like 15 year time jump and you don’t include Talim, one of the character it would still make sense to have around!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It's technically slightly different, because unlike playing a random character, a mimic character's moveset usually changes every round.

Technically they’re different from random in that they switch their fighting style each round

So it's random, but more. Kinda charming, but it still sounds mechanically uninteresting.

I still think characters that can turn into the other character mid-match or has a moveset that uses altered versions of other characters' moves are more interesting executions of the idea though.

You've never seen Street Fighter 3 then.

Even then people hated that game for years before it became the competitive staple it is today if I haven't been misinformed.

 

[7NATOR]

So it's random, but more. Kinda charming, but it still sounds mechanically uninteresting.

I still think characters that can turn into the other character mid-match or has a moveset that uses altered versions of other characters' moves are more interesting executions of the idea though.


Even then people hated that game for years before it became the competitive staple it is today if I haven't been misinformed.

No you're right. SF3 Bombed and was intially met with hate because alot of the Classic Roster were cut. Later on it became more loved and the SF3 characters usually get love today too, but there was a reaon SF4 decided to use the Classic characters in it's initial roster

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

No you're right. SF3 Bombed and was intially met with hate because alot of the Classic Roster were cut. Later on it became more loved and the SF3 characters usually get love today too, but there was a reaon SF4 decided to use the Classic characters in it's initial roster

It also became more loved since 3rd Strike had almost double the roster size of base SF3

Base SF3 was just underwhelming, Street Fighter Alpha had 18 on the roster and it released a year earlier. So it’s a mix of not having classic characters and just not having as much content in general.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Even then people hated that game for years before it became the competitive staple it is today if I haven't been misinformed.

You haven't. SF3 did a lot of things right.

Its roster, isn't one of them.

It also became more loved since 3rd Strike had almost double the roster size of base SF3

But still only had 4 SF2 charcters by the end.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Oh for the last time, an Assist Trophy can't become a fighter in the same game.

But Mamboo.

Spring Man.

He's the protagonist. He's the mascot.

It has to be him.

Protagonist/Mascot first.

Would you look at that, two "rules" at odds with eachother.

It's almost like these "rules" aren't actually written in stone, and are more like patterns that make logical sense in most contexts but are fully capable of having exceptions.

 

[Ben Holt]

- Filling out the casts of the series already in Smash.

I hope this philosophy comes back for third parties.
I wanna see Tails, Knux, Shadow, Eggman, Proto Man, Bass, X, Zero, Alucard, Trevor, Raiden, Jack Frost, Chun Li, Akuma, Sephiroth, Black Mage, Ms. Pac-Man, Slime, etc, etc, etc.

 

[osby]

Would you look at that, two "rules" at odds with each other.

It's almost like these "rules" aren't actually written in stone, and are more like patterns that make logical sense in most contexts but are fully capable of having exceptions.

Honestly.

"All patterns are ironclad rules so stop your support" is equally annoying and unreasonable as "one pattern is broken so every character is likely again". When dealing with probabilities, you should be careful about making absolute statements.

A lot of people go to opposite extremes and either treat fan "rules" as the word of god or write them off as complete fabrications, while the truth is they are somewhere in the middle.

 

[Ben Holt]

Honestly.

"All patterns are ironclad rules so stop your support" is equally annoying and unreasonable as "one pattern is broken so every character is likely again". When dealing with probabilities, you should be careful about making absolute statements.

A lot of people go to opposite extremes and either treat fan "rules" as the word of god or write them off as complete fabrications, while the truth is they are somewhere in the middle.

I'm still all but certain that Spring Man is our ARMS representative.

 

[GoodGrief741]

So to me it makes a lot of sense that they would want to improve their relationship with Nintendo considering that they dominate that marketplace.

This way even if their consoles aren't insanely successful in Japan, they can still put their lower graphical capacity games on the Switch and hope for some level of success.

Nintendo also improves their relationship with Microsoft (for future Smash characters/games/things of that nature). The good/improving relationship between Microsoft is the reason why games like Ori or Cuphead have made it onto the Switch (even if their improving relationship isn't solely due to Smash); there's a reason why Microsoft isn't putting them on the PS4.

Again: Microsoft isn't putting more games on Nintendo consoles. So if there isn't going to be a partnership between them, and Microsoft isn't going to be putting their games on Switch, what's the gain for either of the companies?

Sakurai saying "give the game (Banjo-Kazooie) a try on Xbox" for one.
Xbox was trending in Japan on Twitter because of this

Please, you can't be seriously suggesting that that had any impact on Xbox sales.

 

[Ben Holt]

Again: Microsoft isn't putting more games on Nintendo consoles. So if there isn't going to be a partnership between them, and Microsoft isn't going to be putting their games on Switch, what's the gain for either of the companies?

I think Vergeben leaked the Master Chief Collection on Switch once.
He's been wrong before, but he's been right more often than not.
It wouldn't blow my mind to see Halo, Banjo-Kazooie, or any other Microsoft IP come to Switch since they already brought Cuphead and Ori to Switch.

 

[osby]

I'm still all but certain that Spring Man is our ARMS representative.

I think he's a lot more likely than people give him credit for, but I'm still cautiously optimistic. I really like Spring Man but he's not a hill I want to die on.

 

[Ben Holt]

I think he's a lot more likely than people give him credit for, but I'm still cautiously optimistic. I really like Spring Man but he's not a hill I want to die on.

I'll die on this hill, but luckily I have the infinite lives cheat enabled.

 

[ZenythSmash]

I think Vergeben leaked the Master Chief Collection on Switch once.

just to correct, that's didn't come from him nor he claimed about that from his end (yet, unless i missed a FAQS/Reddit post).
Captain_Tsubusa/KingZell and another certain somebody i use to be acquaint with were one of the few people to hear peeps about Halo on the Switch.

and King_Zell was the first to publicly talk about it, which i was pretty shocked he was in the know as well once i heard about it from the old acquaintance firsthand.

 

[Ben Holt]

just to correct, that's didn't come from him nor he claimed about that from his end (yet, unless i missed a FAQS/Reddit post).
Captain_Tsubusa/KingZell and another certain somebody i use to be acquaint with were one of the few people to sound talks about Halo on the Switch.

King_Zell was the first to publicly talk about it and i was pretty shocked he was in the know as well once i heard about it from the old acquaintance firsthand.

Oh. Well, I never said that my memory was perfect. I just remembered that it was a well known leaker.

 

[Deleted member]

Both the protagonist and mascot fan-rules suck a lot if you are a Mortal Kombat fan.

Because Scorpion is the mascot, but Liu Kang tends to be considered the protagonist.

So if these fanrules really held any importance we would be discussing on a daily basis if they would add Liu Kang or Scorpion without ever reaching a conclussion.

 

[Ben Holt]

Both the protagonist and mascot fan-rules suck a lot if you are a Mortal Kombat fan.

Because Scorpion is the mascot, but Liu Kang tends to be considered the protagonist.

So if these fanrules really held any importance we would be discussing on a daily basis if they would add Liu Kang or Scorpion without ever reaching a conclussion.

Hence the word "or".
Pikachu is the mascot of Pokémon whereas Red is the protagonist, though Red came later.
Sakurai mentioned how if he couldn't get Hero, he'd have tried for Slime.
But it's the same issue with Tekken. They'll most likely go mascots in these instances, being Heihachi and Scorpion.

The reason this argument is brought up is because 90% of the time, mascot and protagonist are one in the same. Spring Man fits both roles, so he is the most likely ARMS representative.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I think Vergeben leaked the Master Chief Collection on Switch once.
He's been wrong before, but he's been right more often than not.
It wouldn't blow my mind to see Halo, Banjo-Kazooie, or any other Microsoft IP come to Switch since they already brought Cuphead and Ori to Switch.

Used to believe that too, but then notorious cool guy Phil Spencer went out and voiced his irritation about people expecting every Xbox game to go on the Switch, and telling people that for now they won't be doing that anymore. If the head of Xbox says they ain't doing it, then they ain't doing it. MCC on Switch was probably just another Star Fox Grand Prix.

 

[Ben Holt]

Used to believe that too, but then notorious cool guy Phil Spencer went out and voiced his irritation about people expecting every Xbox game to go on the Switch, and telling people that for now they won't be doing that anymore. If the head of Xbox says they ain't doing it, then they ain't doing it. MCC on Switch was probably just another Star Fox Grand Prix.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Switch Pro rumors brought about the lack of the Master Chief Collection.
As it stands, Switch is effectively between a decent gaming tablet and a powerful console, but if Nintendo comes out in 2021 with a Switch Pro and a "Power Dock" that brings it closer to PS5 and Series X, then Microsoft might see Nintendo as a competitor again.

Either that, or Microsoft is like, "No skin off our ass to put Banjo in Smash, and our indie games aren't exactly system sellers, but Halo is OUR BRAND!!!"

 

[Spongeboob]

That first one may end up spawning a good amount of memes

Spoiler: Crazy!

Both the protagonist and mascot fan-rules suck a lot if you are a Mortal Kombat fan.

Because Scorpion is the mascot, but Liu Kang tends to be considered the protagonist.

So if these fanrules really held any importance we would be discussing on a daily basis if they would add Liu Kang or Scorpion without ever reaching a conclussion.

I think I remember Boon stating that he'd love to have Scorpion? Although it might've been in regards to Mortal Kombat in general getting in...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifm5hfoqobY
obligatory GORE WARNING BECAUSE IT'S MORTAL KOMBAT
also timeskip for 2:20 for results

Spoiler: In retrospect...

"...Sub-Zero as an echo fighter"

Also, imagine in Mortal Kombat...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

For the most part, the protagonist(or a class representing the protagonist like Villager, Pokemon Trainer, and Hero), come along first.

Mascots are often chosen(in most fighting games, but mascot clearly takes backseat often to the protagonist as is), but there's generally a good reason for that. Pokemon Trainer was impossible to do at the time of 64, and possibly not doable even during Melee. There's also no real information to suggest he even was thinking on Pokemon Trainer till Brawl. There's a rumor about him considering it during Melee, but not even that for Smash 64.

Generally, with the mascot/protagonist first, it's more around what is most feasible, and the general gameplay can often be represented very well with a protagonist. That's why Villager was the logical option over a mascot. Sometimes it's personal preference, like Hero, since he doesn't stand out moveset-wise as is in some way that it's impossible for Slime to do all the same stuff. Coupled with a vastly easier to create assets, and it wasn't exactly a hard choice. There's always context. In the case of ARMS, a good chunk of characters work, but the 3 most important(Ribbon Girl, Spring Man, and Dr. Coyle) make the most sense as a core representation of the gameplay. Being a fan favorite is nice, but there's more to it than that.

 

[Mamboo07]

Spoiler: Crazy!

View attachment 271609

I think I remember Boon stating that he'd love to have Scorpion? Although it might've been in regards to Mortal Kombat in general getting in...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifm5hfoqobY
obligatory GORE WARNING BECAUSE IT'S MORTAL KOMBAT
also timeskip for 2:20 for results

Spoiler: In retrospect...

"...Sub-Zero as an echo fighter"
View attachment 271620
Also, imagine in Mortal Kombat...

CEILING KROC!

 

[CureParfait]

Honestly, Unpopular Opinion, but i think if we get anymore AT Promotions after Spring Man (If he is Promoted), I think Isaac is most likely one. More than Waluigi, More than Shadow, More than Bomberman, More than Shovel Knight, More than Skull Kid

If that was the case I think Waluigi and Isaac have an equal chance of being upgraded to playable.

 

[zeldasmash]

Just wanna say how much I love Beastman's F-Zero Machine, Hyper Speeder AKA the coolest looking machine in the game.

Yeah, the Hyper Speeder is a really cool machine. The Red Gazelle, Black Bull, Fat Shark, Big Fang, Blue Falcon, Death Anchor, Fire Stingray and Iron Tiger are also really awesome machines design wise. If you count Climax, then the Panzer Emerald, Dragon Bird, Hyper Death Anchor and Moon Shadow also look really cool.

 

[Deleted member]

Found a rumor from a LONG time ago now (November of 2018) and looking back at it, it's been right about everything; including a Fire Emblem 3 Houses rep. The rep they claimed was Edelguard, but seeing as how that was the last of Wave 1, it's feasible that they changed their minds part way through; similar to how they were thinking of using Decidueye for the pokemon rep, then changed their minds and went with Incineroar in the end.

Here's the original screenshot of the leak which. There's basically only 1 new thing that we're unaware of though, Sylux. Seems that, if it were true, they would have been blindsided by Terry, but 4 out 5 ain't half-bad. Just thought it was worth considering since there's basically nothing else to discuss here but the same cycle of 'post your wishlist' every 3 pages.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Found a rumor from a LONG time ago now (November of 2018) and looking back at it, it's been right about everything; including a Fire Emblem 3 Houses rep. The rep they claimed was Edelguard, but seeing as how that was the last of Wave 1, it's feasible that they changed their minds part way through; similar to how they were thinking of using Decidueye for the pokemon rep, then changed their minds and went with Incineroar in the end.

Here's the original screenshot of the leak which. There's basically only 1 new thing that we're unaware of though, Sylux. Seems that, if it were true, they would have been blindsided by Terry, but 4 out 5 ain't half-bad. Just thought it was worth considering since there's basically nothing else to discuss here but the same cycle of 'post your wishlist' every 3 pages.

There you have it guys. Sylux confirmed. We now know who are among the remain 5 DLC fighters.

 

[Will]

Found a rumor from a LONG time ago now (November of 2018) and looking back at it, it's been right about everything; including a Fire Emblem 3 Houses rep. The rep they claimed was Edelguard, but seeing as how that was the last of Wave 1, it's feasible that they changed their minds part way through; similar to how they were thinking of using Decidueye for the pokemon rep, then changed their minds and went with Incineroar in the end.

Here's the original screenshot of the leak which. There's basically only 1 new thing that we're unaware of though, Sylux. Seems that, if it were true, they would have been blindsided by Terry, but 4 out 5 ain't half-bad. Just thought it was worth considering since there's basically nothing else to discuss here but the same cycle of 'post your wishlist' every 3 pages.
View attachment 271623

can't believe the ARMS rep was going to be Sylux the whole time

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Watch that Pass 2 consists of 1st parties only.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Found a rumor from a LONG time ago now (November of 2018) and looking back at it, it's been right about everything; including a Fire Emblem 3 Houses rep. The rep they claimed was Edelguard, but seeing as how that was the last of Wave 1, it's feasible that they changed their minds part way through; similar to how they were thinking of using Decidueye for the pokemon rep, then changed their minds and went with Incineroar in the end.

Here's the original screenshot of the leak which. There's basically only 1 new thing that we're unaware of though, Sylux. Seems that, if it were true, they would have been blindsided by Terry, but 4 out 5 ain't half-bad. Just thought it was worth considering since there's basically nothing else to discuss here but the same cycle of 'post your wishlist' every 3 pages.
View attachment 271623

The last part makes me think this was another faker with lucky guesses. I think people assumed it was fake, anyway; I remember it being brought up before.

edit: the way the first part is worded is fishy too. Really just seems like a typical fake leaker with some luck.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Imagine this being the Season 2 Pass.

Spring Man
Paper Mario
Sylux
Gen 8 Pokemon
Rex
Waluigi

 

[osby]

Found a rumor from a LONG time ago now (November of 2018) and looking back at it, it's been right about everything; including a Fire Emblem 3 Houses rep. The rep they claimed was Edelguard, but seeing as how that was the last of Wave 1, it's feasible that they changed their minds part way through; similar to how they were thinking of using Decidueye for the pokemon rep, then changed their minds and went with Incineroar in the end.

Here's the original screenshot of the leak which. There's basically only 1 new thing that we're unaware of though, Sylux. Seems that, if it were true, they would have been blindsided by Terry, but 4 out 5 ain't half-bad. Just thought it was worth considering since there's basically nothing else to discuss here but the same cycle of 'post your wishlist' every 3 pages.
View attachment 271623

I have a hard time believing this.

Even if you ignore how they somehow missed Terry (easily the least common prediction in the first pass), a SE character and a Three Houses characters aren't really groundbreaking predictions. I also find it weird how they got both of them wrong when as far as we know Byleth and Hero were Nintendo's first choices. And Banjo was in literally every other "leak" before his reveal. Joker is the only one who stands out as an inconvenient pick.

I guess it's worth keeping an eye on, but it becomes less impressive when you realize they only got 2 characters out of 6 reveals right and so many things don't add up. Also, why we got Terry and ARMS before Sylux if he was planned so early?

 

[Deleted member]

Watch that Pass 2 consists of 1st parties only.

I don’t know about anyone else, but I’d be more then okay with this.

 

[Eldrake]

Imagine this being the Season 2 Pass.

Spring Man
Paper Mario
Sylux
Gen 8 Pokemon
Rex
Waluigi

This pass is 7/10 for me. Swap Gen 8 Pokemon out for Adeleine, and I'd consider this pass 9/10.

 

[BernkastelWitch]

Both the protagonist and mascot fan-rules suck a lot if you are a Mortal Kombat fan.

Because Scorpion is the mascot, but Liu Kang tends to be considered the protagonist.

So if these fanrules really held any importance we would be discussing on a daily basis if they would add Liu Kang or Scorpion without ever reaching a conclussion.

While I also brought up Tekken, Danganronpa, and arguably Dynasty Warriors as three other possible franchises that may have issues with this protagonist/mascot fan rule, I completely forgot about Mortal Kombat. Even if that is unlikely to get a rep in Smash, I still want to believe Scorpion would be picked since he's the mascot of MK and one of the franchises more popular characters even if he ain't a protagonist.

So I guess that would make four series that could possibly break this fan rule.

 

[Kotor]

Found a rumor from a LONG time ago now (November of 2018) and looking back at it, it's been right about everything; including a Fire Emblem 3 Houses rep. The rep they claimed was Edelguard, but seeing as how that was the last of Wave 1, it's feasible that they changed their minds part way through; similar to how they were thinking of using Decidueye for the pokemon rep, then changed their minds and went with Incineroar in the end.

Here's the original screenshot of the leak which. There's basically only 1 new thing that we're unaware of though, Sylux. Seems that, if it were true, they would have been blindsided by Terry, but 4 out 5 ain't half-bad. Just thought it was worth considering since there's basically nothing else to discuss here but the same cycle of 'post your wishlist' every 3 pages.
View attachment 271623

Why bring up something from 2018. Made in the context of the first fighter's pass?

Before Joker's reveal, there were some people who thought the Fighter Pass would just be "shill picks." I guess in that regard it makes sense to think there'd be a FE rep, but the whole "Fighter Pass is all Third Party" mentality blinded everyone. Plus, most people expected that if Three Houses was gonna get a character, it would've been for Volume 2. Three Houses may have originally intended to release in 2018, but I doubt some people were aware of that.

And Sylux is just people saying "Sylux is gonna be in MP4" so much that it feels like his appearance is expected despite the lack of official information from before and after the restart of development saying anything in that regard. It's all just people clinging on to a comment made by Tanabe years ago.

 

[MagnesD3]

Imagine this being the Season 2 Pass.

Spring Man
Paper Mario
Sylux
Gen 8 Pokemon
Rex
Waluigi

Paper Mario and Waluigi make this a win for me

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Imagine this being the Season 2 Pass.

Spring Man
Paper Mario
Sylux
Gen 8 Pokemon
Rex
Waluigi

Ngl, that'd be... kinda underwhelming compared to the first pass

Selection feels painfully safe in comparison, and not even a single third party?