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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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I would love to make these challenger packs images for some characters I would love to see in.

Sadly my editing skills aren't good enough for that.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Missed opportunity to flip the image and make it look like it's screaming...Whatever that says.

I would love to make these challenger packs images for some characters I would love to see in.

Sadly my editing skills aren't good enough for that.
Doesn't look too difficult: Slap a bunch of images on there, and some text there and bam! Finished image. The hard part comes in having a photo editor...

I don't have a photo editor...

EDIT: If you're wondering how I made my avatar then...It's a screenshot of my "pixel art" in Microsoft Excel.

And I just realized I could have used Gimp for that instead...Ah well, methodical placement of "pixels" probably turned out better than drawing with a mouse would anyway.
 
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EricTheGamerman

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Sure, but that indicates that he wasn't popular enough to be prioritised as a full blown playable character, as we saw with K. Rool, Ridley and Banjo. Which unfortunately kinda shows that the character and series just isn't as big as Isaac supporters thought.

Though, maybe if Ultimate had more than just six non-echo newcomers, things could of been different...
The same can be said of all characters that didn't get added to be fair, priority decides everything in the Smash context. That said, I think it also makes sense within the context of the Ultimate base game lineup. Isaac would have required a proper "new series treatment" that brought along a stage, music, more Spirits, and maybe even an additional Assist Trophy. Only two new franchises were added in base Smash, and Splatoon was too huge to ignore alongside being a popular request (which is an element of Ultimate I think people forget, people wanted the Inklings super badly during the Smash 4 days) and Castlevania got the chance to get in finally after years of also being requested. The only other new stages we got were from Breath of the Wild and Super Mario Odyssey, so that keys us in to just what things were taking priority stage wise (not even Pokemon got a new stage). The remaining unique newcomers all come from more successful and classic franchises as well: Isabelle as the breakout hit from New Leaf and one of Nintendo's biggest characters of the 21st century and Incineroar to bring us a new Pokemon since it's the biggest media franchise in the world basically. Finally we have Ridley and King K. Rool, both of whom were requests that could be added individually without additional content and are from active and beloved series (Metroid Samus Returns was on the way at the time as was the port of Tropical Freeze as extra little bits of recency incentive). There's just not much room for Golden Sun or Isaac in base game. I don't really see how you can drop any of the additions made there.

When it comes to DLC, there's more opportunity, but I think everything in the first Fighter's Pass is now more successful than Golden Sun's entire run at the peak of its popularity. Sure, Banjo & Kazooie are dead, but they had some incredibly circumstances on their side and also were more successful than Golden Sun as well.

I don't even really think with newcomers added to base game Ultimate in addition to what we got that Isaac would necessarily be the first or second in line for those positions either. At the time of release it had been 8 years since Dark Dawn, and that game itself had only released 8 years after its predecessor. The Lost Age sold about half of what the original Golden Sun did and then Dark Dawn sold maybe a 1/3rd of what The Lost Age did unfortunately. It's just in an awkward place despite being a fan favorite... but the sales figures aren't there and I do remember that Nintendo made a fairly big deal about bringing Golden Sun back in the first place only for it to perform so poorly, so they did give it a solid try. Isaac and Golden Sun seem just super dependent on a revival that seems unlikely at this point.

Until Issac reaches Ridley or K. Rool levels of support, I can't say for certain that he'll be able to overcome his obscurity.

He's sort of like Geno in the sense that he has a lot of support, but that support is one of the only things going for him. Also makes it worse that Isaac comes from a franchise unrepresented on the roster. At least Geno is able to latch on to a successful franchise, and that franchise is the most iconic one Nintendo owns no less. Isaac has to rely on his own franchise's merit, which is tough when you pit it against other more relevant/iconic IPs.
If anything being from his own series would actually help Isaac in comparison to Geno. Like, Geno is hitching to Mario, but only out of absolute necessity and there's probably a fair case to be made he isn't even the most popularly requested Mario newcomer at this point with Waluigi continuing to gain steam and even Toad becoming a more often thought of pick. Like that doesn't put Isaac in a good position necessarily, but he's also not competing with other equally popular options from the same series with more history and "relevance."
 

Cosmic77

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If anything being from his own series would actually help Isaac in comparison to Geno. Like, Geno is hitching to Mario, but only out of absolute necessity and there's probably a fair case to be made he isn't even the most popularly requested Mario newcomer at this point with Waluigi continuing to gain steam and even Toad becoming a more often thought of pick. Like that doesn't put Isaac in a good position necessarily, but he's also not competing with other equally popular options from the same series with more history and "relevance."
I disagree. Geno is associated with a franchise that's already on the roster, and that franchise just so happens to be Mario — Nintendo's heart and soul. Isaac is from a completely new franchise that's been dormant for several years, and there's no new games in sight. Since he's not a third-party either, I don't see what they stand to gain by adding him aside from pleasing the people who requested him (and that isn't really the most compelling argument since there are plenty of first-party options capable of doing that and a whole lot more).

I don't really care about either character (nor do I think either is likely), so it's not like this is a particularly biased take favoring one over the other. I just believe that the irrelevant character from a thriving franchise is in a better position than the irrelevant character from an irrelevant franchise.
 
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Unrelated to the current topic, but in the scenario where we get Ezio Auditores in Smash I would love It if they parodied his Soul Calibur trailer. More so the first half of It:


With Smash Ultimate being co-developed by Bandai Namco, I want to believe there would be no legal issues with said choice.
 

clearandsweet

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The same can be said of all characters that didn't get added to be fair, priority decides everything in the Smash context. That said, I think it also makes sense within the context of the Ultimate base game lineup. Isaac would have required a proper "new series treatment" that brought along a stage, music, more Spirits, and maybe even an additional Assist Trophy. Only two new franchises were added in base Smash, and Splatoon was too huge to ignore alongside being a popular request (which is an element of Ultimate I think people forget, people wanted the Inklings super badly during the Smash 4 days) and Castlevania got the chance to get in finally after years of also being requested. The only other new stages we got were from Breath of the Wild and Super Mario Odyssey, so that keys us in to just what things were taking priority stage wise (not even Pokemon got a new stage). The remaining unique newcomers all come from more successful and classic franchises as well: Isabelle as the breakout hit from New Leaf and one of Nintendo's biggest characters of the 21st century and Incineroar to bring us a new Pokemon since it's the biggest media franchise in the world basically. Finally we have Ridley and King K. Rool, both of whom were requests that could be added individually without additional content and are from active and beloved series (Metroid Samus Returns was on the way at the time as was the port of Tropical Freeze as extra little bits of recency incentive). There's just not much room for Golden Sun or Isaac in base game. I don't really see how you can drop any of the additions made there.

When it comes to DLC, there's more opportunity, but I think everything in the first Fighter's Pass is now more successful than Golden Sun's entire run at the peak of its popularity. Sure, Banjo & Kazooie are dead, but they had some incredibly circumstances on their side and also were more successful than Golden Sun as well.

I don't even really think with newcomers added to base game Ultimate in addition to what we got that Isaac would necessarily be the first or second in line for those positions either. At the time of release it had been 8 years since Dark Dawn, and that game itself had only released 8 years after its predecessor. The Lost Age sold about half of what the original Golden Sun did and then Dark Dawn sold maybe a 1/3rd of what The Lost Age did unfortunately. It's just in an awkward place despite being a fan favorite... but the sales figures aren't there and I do remember that Nintendo made a fairly big deal about bringing Golden Sun back in the first place only for it to perform so poorly, so they did give it a solid try. Isaac and Golden Sun seem just super dependent on a revival that seems unlikely at this point.



If anything being from his own series would actually help Isaac in comparison to Geno. Like, Geno is hitching to Mario, but only out of absolute necessity and there's probably a fair case to be made he isn't even the most popularly requested Mario newcomer at this point with Waluigi continuing to gain steam and even Toad becoming a more often thought of pick. Like that doesn't put Isaac in a good position necessarily, but he's also not competing with other equally popular options from the same series with more history and "relevance."
What you say is true and very valid, but it's predicated on the assumption that Camelot is not right now working on a Golden Sun game for the Switch.

Also to this statement:

> When it comes to DLC, there's more opportunity, but I think everything in the first Fighter's Pass is now more successful than Golden Sun's entire run at the peak of its popularity.

While true about FP1, things seem far more favorable when you consider FP2 starting off with Arms.
 

Koopaul

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That said with this exception, I find Spirits more likely to be promoted.
Possibly. It seems odd for them to be like "We changed our minds, we want them in the game now." ARMS seems to be a case of "we always wanted them in the game but it was too late." So even Spirits I'm a bit skeptical of.

Unless there's a new game that is coming out and Nintendo wants to promote it. Like, hypothetically, a new Rhythm Heaven is in the works so Karate Joe is one of the Challenger Packs. But otherwise I don't see them upgrading any Spirits.

Basically, I don't think they're going to upgrade AT or Spirits arbitrarily. There needs to be a reason.
 
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King Sonnn DeDeDoo

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I couldn't think of a character that could represent Barry, so just imagine you literally fight him.

I think Resident Evil has more than enough content that it could bring even with the spirit event much like Pokemon, but it isn't a series I really want in the game so I'll just leave it off with this.
Hey this is a really good mock up! Nemesis would be super cool and the spirit list is fitting and the music is goo-

Capture.PNG


Oh nooo.....
 

Cosmic77

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Also to this statement:

> When it comes to DLC, there's more opportunity, but I think everything in the first Fighter's Pass is now more successful than Golden Sun's entire run at the peak of its popularity.

While true about FP1, things seem far more favorable when you consider FP2 starting off with Arms.
To be fair, ARMS has already sold better than any of the three Golden Sun games, and it seems like Nintendo has plans for it in the future.

It's no Splatoon, but I wouldn't say it's a sign of the second pass being full of niche games that barely sold.
 

Mamboo07

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I couldn't think of a character that could represent Barry, so just imagine you literally fight him.

I think Resident Evil has more than enough content that it could bring even with the spirit event much like Pokemon, but it isn't a series I really want in the game so I'll just leave it off with this.
Awesome, Nemesis in Smash would be so cool.
NEUTRAL: Roar
SIDE: Flamethrower
UP: Rocket Jump
DOWN: Earth Shatter
FINAL SMASH: His final form
 

Scoliosis Jones

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As I and others have said, just because one series we thought was out of the running is getting a playable character does not mean we’re “more likely” to get a fighter that was previously a non-playable character.

It’s an individual basis thing. What works for one does not work for all. We’ve kinda been over this.

I get being excited at the prospect, but it doesn’t mean it’s any more likely than it was prior to the ARMS reveal.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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As I and others have said, just because one series we thought was out of the running is getting a playable character does not mean we’re “more likely” to get a fighter that was previously a non-playable character.
Well...In the case of Assist Trophies, they are more likely because now they're nonzero assuming Spring Man is the fighter.


And if he's not then nothing really changes.
 

ZelDan

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I mean, I don't think I've seen anyone in this thread specifically be like " OH MAN IF SPRINGMAN IS ADDED THEN *insert fan-favorite AT here* IS A LOCK!"

I'm sure people are acting that way in other corners of the internet but I don't think I've seen it in this thread specifically.
 

Perkilator

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Well...In the case of Assist Trophies, they are more likely because now they're nonzero assuming Spring Man is the fighter.


And if he's not then nothing really changes.
Maybe only in the Assist department. In the Spirits department, however? Depending on who gets in, this could signal that either Spirits can be promoted or series repped by Spirite are still on the table (at least for the base game).
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Well...In the case of Assist Trophies, they are more likely because now they're nonzero assuming Spring Man is the fighter.


And if he's not then nothing really changes.
That’s my point though. The circumstances around Spring Man are not the same for a character like Isaac, for example.

Considering the circumstances aren’t the same, then how exactly does that help Isaac? The answer is, more or less, that it doesn’t.

Sure, an Upgraded Spring Man might suggest an AT could be upgraded. But that assumes part of the reason for the upgrade was, “Hey, let’s upgrade an Assist Trophy!” And not, “Hey I think this is a great opportunity to garner interest in ARMS.” If the reasoning is the latter, then that, frankly, is specific to ARMS. Another upgrade would need criteria to itself to being upgraded then, I would think.

I see what you mean when you say the odds are “better than zero”, but I still am unsure that I agree on that.
 
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Hadokeyblade

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I mean, I don't think I've seen anyone in this thread specifically be like " OH MAN IF SPRINGMAN IS ADDED THEN *insert fan-favorite AT here* IS A LOCK!"

I'm sure people are acting that way in other corners of the internet but I don't think I've seen it in this thread specifically.
All I've ever said is "if assists are on the table then put Shadow"
 

7NATOR

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Honestly, Unpopular Opinion, but i think if we get anymore AT Promotions after Spring Man (If he is Promoted), I think Isaac is most likely one. More than Waluigi, More than Shadow, More than Bomberman, More than Shovel Knight, More than Skull Kid

Oh for the last time, an Assist Trophy can't become a fighter in the same game.
Well let's see if this post ages like Milk, or Ages like Wine
 

CaptainAmerica

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Unrelated to the current topic, but in the scenario where we get Ezio Auditores in Smash I would love It if they parodied his Soul Calibur trailer. More so the first half of It:


With Smash Ultimate being co-developed by Bandai Namco, I want to believe there would be no legal issues with said choice.
Oh man, that'd be cool. I remember seeing that and getting so hype about it. I love Soul Calibur and Assassin's Creed.

But ooh, the pain playing that game. SCV was a steaming pile of ****.

Seriously, I've never seen a fighting game go well where the premise was "Let's cut 90% of the roster and replace them with younger, more hyperactive expies!" And then not only that, they combined that with "We had a story mode, but we ran out of time and chopped off half the story" and "You know how fun mimic fighters are? Here are *three* of them. One even used to have a unique moveset, but we gave it to this random kid so he could be a mimic! But it makes sense because now he's a *weapon master* and can use all the weapons!" and "This is the Good Guy. You know he is because we keep talking about him. Pay no attention to how many people he just killed or that he has the personality of a plank, he's the Good Guy and we all love him. Oh, and we'll make a second version of him to serve as a clone of this other beloved character we cut since y'all didn't like her right?"

[shudder]

At least SCVI brought the franchise back (and the first thing they did was cut all of the expies and reinstate the original characters). Pity they're releasing DLC characters on a slower timescale than Smash.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Sure, an Upgraded Spring Man might suggest an AT could be upgraded. But that assumes part of the reason for the upgrade was, “Hey, let’s upgrade an Assist Trophy!” And not, “Hey I think this is a great opportunity to garner interest in ARMS.” If the reasoning is the latter, then that, frankly, is specific to ARMS. Another upgrade would need criteria to itself to being upgraded then, I would think.
Which is why most people go with the angle of popularity for...well all of them actually. I think it has merit for Waluigi since he seems to be the most popular of the Assist Trophies, and still appears in stuff that isn't Smash.

I see what you mean when you say the odds are “better than zero”, but I still am unsure that I agree on that.
Why would it not? If Spring Man were to become a fighter, it would mean that already being an Assist Trophy is not a death sentence for a character, and they can be considered for this pass. I don't really see how an Assist Trophy also being a character doesn't make this a thing unless they were to explicitly state that this is an exception, which I doubt they'd do even if they weren't going to add a new Assist Trophy character.

But Mamboo.

Spring Man.

He's the protagonist. He's the mascot.

It has to be him.

Protagonist/Mascot first.
Michael please. An intelligent conversation this does not make.
 
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Oh man, that'd be cool. I remember seeing that and getting so hype about it. I love Soul Calibur and Assassin's Creed.

But ooh, the pain playing that game. SCV was a steaming pile of ****.

Seriously, I've never seen a fighting game go well where the premise was "Let's cut 90% of the roster and replace them with younger, more hyperactive expies!" And then not only that, they combined that with "We had a story mode, but we ran out of time and chopped off half the story" and "You know how fun mimic fighters are? Here are *three* of them. One even used to have a unique moveset, but we gave it to this random kid so he could be a mimic! But it makes sense because now he's a *weapon master* and can use all the weapons!" and "This is the Good Guy. You know he is because we keep talking about him. Pay no attention to how many people he just killed or that he has the personality of a plank, he's the Good Guy and we all love him. Oh, and we'll make a second version of him to serve as a clone of this other beloved character we cut since y'all didn't like her right?"

[shudder]

At least SCVI brought the franchise back (and the first thing they did was cut all of the expies and reinstate the original characters). Pity they're releasing DLC characters on a slower timescale than Smash.
I hope to be able to play SCVI soon!

I have seen Gameplays of It and It looks fun alongside the guests they included!!!

There's also the character creator thing which is awesome.
 

7NATOR

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Oh man, that'd be cool. I remember seeing that and getting so hype about it. I love Soul Calibur and Assassin's Creed.

But ooh, the pain playing that game. SCV was a steaming pile of ****.

Seriously, I've never seen a fighting game go well where the premise was "Let's cut 90% of the roster and replace them with younger, more hyperactive expies!" And then not only that, they combined that with "We had a story mode, but we ran out of time and chopped off half the story" and "You know how fun mimic fighters are? Here are *three* of them. One even used to have a unique moveset, but we gave it to this random kid so he could be a mimic! But it makes sense because now he's a *weapon master* and can use all the weapons!" and "This is the Good Guy. You know he is because we keep talking about him. Pay no attention to how many people he just killed or that he has the personality of a plank, he's the Good Guy and we all love him. Oh, and we'll make a second version of him to serve as a clone of this other beloved character we cut since y'all didn't like her right?"

[shudder]

At least SCVI brought the franchise back (and the first thing they did was cut all of the expies and reinstate the original characters). Pity they're releasing DLC characters on a slower timescale than Smash.
At least the Devil Jin Moveset in that game was cool. very epic
 

DarthEnderX

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But like I said...his popularity on the ballot only resulted in him being an AT. Whereas K. Rool and Ridley were made playable.
You mean the ballot where you don't actually know where he placed on it, because Nintendo never released the results?

For all you know, K. Rool and Ridley got 10x as many votes as Isaac, and that's why they're playable, and he's not.

Would it necessarily have to be SquareEnix doing the remake?
Seems like the perfect project for AlphaDream. Especially since the director of SMRPG's was on that team.

If only they hadn't, ya know, gone bankrupt...
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Seriously, I've never seen a fighting game go well where the premise was "Let's cut 90% of the roster..."
No extra information is needed. This game has failed.

"You know how fun mimic fighters are? Here are *three* of them.
I think the mimic fighter as a concept could be really cool.

*looks up the characters and finds out they just use the moveset of other characters at random*

But that...That's a waste of a slot. Did they not know the random button existed or something?
 

DarthEnderX

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*looks up the characters and finds out they just use the moveset of other characters at random*

But that...That's a waste of a slot. Did they not know the random button existed or something?
It's technically slightly different, because unlike playing a random character, a mimic character's moveset usually changes every round.

Seriously, I've never seen a fighting game go well where the premise was "Let's cut 90% of the roster and replace them with younger, more hyperactive expies!"
You've never seen Street Fighter 3 then.
 
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