Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

I thought they said the new fighters would get the whole shebang. Was it just that each one would get a stage & music?


Huh. I could've sworn Roy's game was localized. The more you know.

Blazing Blade is a prequel to Roy's game and he himself makes a cameo in it

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Yes we do and we're getting them.

Well you could say the same about echoes then. TBH, we didn't need any video game to begin with, but it's always been nice to have.

Though in all honesty it really depends on which echoes would hypothetically get in, in terms of how excited I would be.

 

[wynn728]

Well there's definitely a market for them. Otherwise they wouldn't keep making them.

People are just buying them just to have them, rarely anyone are using the Mii Costumes (that aren't Sans or Cuphead). Hell, rarely anyone even use Mii Fighters. I know so many people just buy these costume just to never use them.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

People are just buying them just to have them, rarely anyone are using the Mii Costumes (that aren't Sans or Cuphead). Hell, rarely anyone even use Mii Fighters. I know so many people just buy these costume just to never use them.

Anecdotal evidence does not mean people aren't excited for them.

It's fine if you dislike them, but your sample size isn't evidence they have tons of hatred.

I love them because I can't make tons of cool character combinations otherwise. I haven't bought any of the DLC ones yet cause of a lack of a bundle, so it takes too long to get each individually. It's odd how they won't do that at all, but it could be some licensing-related stuff as is. Smash 4 might've been lucky in that regard.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Though in all honesty it really depends on which echoes would hypothetically get in, in terms of how excited I would be.

Uniqueness would be a big factor for me. I mean, of course an Echo Fighter's not gonna have a unique moveset, but they should at least put an interesting spin on the existing one they copy.

Or to put it another way, more of this:
Less of this:

People are just buying them just to have them, rarely anyone are using the Mii Costumes (that aren't Sans or Cuphead). Hell, rarely anyone even use Mii Fighters. I know so many people just buy these costume just to never use them.

Even if this is true beyond your anecdote, that still causes the Mii costumes to be profitable, thus giving Nintendo the incentive to make more.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Ahh yes the one thing I NEED to survive, more fictional characters in this fighting game.

No, we don't NEED them. They're great to have but no, we never NEEDED more characters in the game.

Well I do need them so I can complete my roster so there you go.

Well you could say the same about echoes then. TBH, we didn't need any video game to begin with, but it's always been nice to have.

Though in all honesty it really depends on which echoes would hypothetically get in, in terms of how excited I would be.

Echo Fighters were only ever made because they wanted to increase the roster size but with this many characters, it's unnecessary.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I haven't bought any of the DLC yet, but I don't know if I'd go for Miis just for being Miis. I really don't play them at all, but I'll admit that the Skull Kid one looks so good that it almost feels like playing him. Almost.

Tails on the other hand... Ugh.

I would like some other DLC as well - maybe new stages (I've been waiting for a Tetris stage since we got those remixes in Brawl, and we really need some more hardcore looking stages) or character costumes (the Twilight Princess costumes back, please. And the Dorf's Hyrule Warriors one). And yeah, if they threw us some echoes, I'm all for that. I'm still all in for Tails being a great Chrom-level Sonic echo.

I'm a bit annoyed that there are loads of good intense songs, while most stages are nice happy World 1's - Mario has this bad, and there are way too many FE songs for the few FE stages. I'm also overloading the Find Mii stage since it's the only 'Generic' music stage that looks intense, so all of the intense songs are there.

I haven't bought any of the DLC yet, but I'm definitely gonna get some of it. Mii costumes though aren't making me excited. I'll probably get Sans - not because I have a connection to Undertale, but because the Megalovania remix is fire - and I'm definitely getting some of the characters at least.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Fair enough, but I don't think you're dealing with the full reality here either, but you're approaching this from a rather pessimistic "didn't sell, doesn't matter", instead of going through why it didn't sell. It's easy to say that the only reason Dark Dawn failed was because fans "didn't show up", when there's a lot more to it than that - same as with Chibi-Robo (which we already talked about) and Advance Wars (which considering the FE revival, is not IS' bigger priority right now). So really, it seems more like the devs don't want to do it for reasons other than a case of "too risky, wouldn't sell". And again - the reason you don't see more evidence of Smash helping franchises is because they stopped doing it post-Brawl. The only two first parties newcomers after it without a game in "current" or "past" gens were and . That's it.

My original point is that there used to be more exceptions being made per game. Does that mean every old franchise will get revitalized solely on the fact they are now in Smash? Absolutely not (where's my R.O.B. MK II, Sakurai). Do they need additional facts besides Smash to truly shine? Certainly! But the idea here is that there used to be a space for less conventional choices, but now all the element of risk is entirely focused on third parties - not a bad thing per se, but when even your so-called "unorthodox" picks need to either be a relative big hitter in its generation () or yet another pick from Nintendo's biggest franchise ()... it does make me think we're missing out.

Again, as I've said previously, we can do postmortems all day of those franchises... but the current state of those franchises (and future plans) are what helps determine what is going to get in or not be included in Smash is what I'm saying. Such things can be a positive or a negative to a franchise's chances of getting into Smash, and that's what I'm talking about when I say the current outlook for Golden Sun in Smash isn't that great. It just independently has a lot of negatives on it with what seems to be one positive in the form of fan demand. How they got to where they are today isn't as relevant to the selection process as where they are today and what they were at their peaks. And specifically, dead/niche franchises have a tendency to come back when they have an extra positive in a committed developer stepping in and committing to them.

The space for less conventional choices has almost always been occupied by Sakurai's pet projects, not really overall risks with the intention of trying to restart a franchise. Plus, there's such a considerable difference between how much smaller the world of Smash was when Melee released and Smash was just starting to become a thing, to Ultimate's absurd 20 million in sales that we're seeing these days that is already eclipsing the vast majority of released titles. And that sort of reality also has an impact on how characters are chosen when your fan base opens up that wide and appeals to so many people.

I'll emphasize once more that I don't think that necessarily every fighter in Smash needs to be the biggest and the best of everything. There's certainly places for smaller fighters and more unorthodox picks, but I do think it's interesting to examine how we arrived towards a tendency to include the bigger icons and focus on third party "risk" as opposed to Nintendo, and why it specifically is such a difficult process to incorporate the remaining Nintendo franchises. Especially in DLC where you're putting a lot of weight on any given character to carry the game for a few months and have to act as its own independent product for all intensive purposes.

 

[snowgolem]

Why tf is Deadpool in fortnite? I walked in on my brother playing and he’s playing as Deadpool?? I swear we’re probably gonna get Dio in Fortnite before we get someone as obvious as Waluigi in Smash

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Evil Trapezium:

Well I do need them so I can complete my roster so there you go.

Also Evil Trapezium:

Echo Fighters were only ever made because they wanted to increase the roster size but with this many characters, it's unnecessary.

...
...
...
Wat?

 

[GoodGrief741]

This and the licensing costs required to use quite a few songs like Mr. Batty Twist and Rock 'n Roll (Mild)/Rock 'n Roll (Spicy).

I dunno, everyone thought that was a problem for Earthbound and it turned out to be a non-issue. They're probably protected legally as parody or under fair use.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

People are just buying them just to have them, rarely anyone are using the Mii Costumes (that aren't Sans or Cuphead). Hell, rarely anyone even use Mii Fighters. I know so many people just buy these costume just to never use them.

I'd prefer a $1 costume I only use once over any lootbox nonsense.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I dunno, everyone thought that was a problem for Earthbound and it turned out to be a non-issue. They're probably protected legally as parody or under fair use.

It was an actual issue. That's why it took a severely long time to get on the VC in the first place. Tons of copyright problems. And mostly because the IP owner doesn't like changes to his IP beyond translations, and even dislikes the jokes being translated wrong. He's very fickle about the Mother series.

EarthBound Beginnings also was hard to localize because of the copyrighted song issues. Back when EarthBound released, copyright stuff was way more lax. Note that these songs aren't parodies or fair use whatsoever. They're barely different from the original and cannot be protected that way. There's tons of parody songs in the world(like Weird Al Yankovik's collection). This isn't one of those cases. A good way to put it is they didn't do anything to the song but change the format of how it sounds. It's the same song through and through, with the same background bits. Removing the lyrics isn't a parody factor. Now if they added their own lyrics at the time, they're actual parodies.

Worth noting that parody and fair use is a sliding scale too in how it works. It's a lot up to the discretion of the Judges and IP owners on what counts. It's not an actual hard rule. It got to the point where people have tried to sue Fanfic creators. Those thankfully were treated as fair use because it's clearly not just a rip-off/stealing the work. But the fact that it even happened is insane. Blame Nintendo, who were stupidly overprotective, and in a bad way. Fangames can be done thing(namely hacks), but fanfiction and fanart? Oy.

 

[GoodGrief741]

It was an actual issue. That's why it took a severely long time to get on the VC in the first place. Tons of copyright problems. And mostly because the IP owner doesn't like changes to his IP beyond translations, and even dislikes the jokes being translated wrong. He's very fickle about the Mother series.

EarthBound Beginnings also was hard to localize because of the copyrighted song issues. Back when EarthBound released, copyright stuff was way more lax. Note that these songs aren't parodies or fair use whatsoever. They're barely different from the original and cannot be protected that way. There's tons of parody songs. This isn't one of those cases.

Source? From what I remember all this turned out to be baseless.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Source? From what I remember all this turned out to be baseless.

Give me a bit.

I'm trying to find a proper article beyond some noted legal terminology on fan sites. Though please note my edit. Only thing I found is that it was confirmed there was tons of legal work done by Nintendo's lawyers, but I haven't found a proper source on that. I'm finding nothing to suggest it's a fabrication.

Yeah, it seems like it's a rumor at best. Though I can see why people believe it. The music is pretty much the same bar a lack of lyrics. You aren't adding new content, a key part of how parodies work. So with an understanding of parody rules, people came to the conclusion it was a reason. It's not actually baseless, but it does lack outright evidence. That should explain the situation a bit better.

So my bad, but it's likely the rumor is actually real too since it has a lot of basis in reality. Not that it proves the rumor real. With a lot of songs blatantly being ripped off, there's a good chance they took care of the legal issues beforehand and it taking a while easily attributes to that. A lack of evidence on that, of course. It's purely theorycraft, but as I said, it's based upon actual reality too.

 

[MBRedboy31]

People are just buying them just to have them, rarely anyone are using the Mii Costumes (that aren't Sans or Cuphead). Hell, rarely anyone even use Mii Fighters. I know so many people just buy these costume just to never use them.

Back in Smash 4, I had a couple Miis that I used often that respectively used the Business Suit and the outfit part of the Fox costume. I ported them to Ultimate too, but those costumes are included for free in Ultimate.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

tfw I bought the DQ Martial Artist outfit to make a more accurate Min Min Mii mere days before the ARMS Smash confirmation

but aside from that, I absolutely use Mii costumes, Especially in Smash 4. Bought a fair amount of them there. At 75 cents, they're a pretty harmless investment. It's quite a simple thing to spend your spare eshop change and gold points on when you don't have enough for an actual game.

 

[wynn728]

Anecdotal evidence does not mean people aren't excited for them.

It's fine if you dislike them, but your sample size isn't evidence they have tons of hatred.

I love them because I can't make tons of cool character combinations otherwise. I haven't bought any of the DLC ones yet cause of a lack of a bundle, so it takes too long to get each individually. It's odd how they won't do that at all, but it could be some licensing-related stuff as is. Smash 4 might've been lucky in that regard.

Never said they have tons of hatred (unless your favorite characters gets turn into one, then you just become a joke like K. Rool back in Smash 4 and Rex), just not many care for them. Again, barely anyone are playing as the Mii Fighters so why is all this support going into the least played characters?

I'd prefer a $1 costume I only use once over any lootbox nonsense.

And I would rather pay $3 for a character alt than paying 75 cents for a bootleg version of a character.

Even if this is true beyond your anecdote, that still causes the Mii costumes to be profitable, thus giving Nintendo the incentive to make more.

Yeah, they're only profitable because the Smash Fan are so rabid that they're will to buy an kind of DLC no matter what just so they can support the game despite never having an interest of using those costumes, which in turns makes the developers continue to focus on making more Mii Costume that will never be used instead of shifting focus on something that's more appealing. It's just an endless cycle of creating content that nobody have an interest of using just so they can give some kind of support. These are the same people who also who believe Sakurai can do no wrong and will defend every single decision ever made by him.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Evil Trapezium:

Also Evil Trapezium:

...
...
...
Wat?

Echo Fighters only reason to exist to expand the roster, they are unnecessary. However unique fighters provide a unique playstyle.

What's not to get?

 

[Lamperouge]

I've only bought the Sans costume because hurr durr SANSUNDERTALE memes, but I never really use it. At least the song is nice.

While I don't really count it due to the outfit being bundled with a pass that most people probably bought solely for the character packs, I'll sometimes use the Rex costume when I feel like hurting.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

to Ultimate's absurd 20 million in sales that we're seeing these days that is already eclipsing the vast majority of released titles.

Ultimate’s sales figure is actually around 17 million.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Never said they have tons of hatred (unless your favorite characters gets turn into one, then you just become a joke like K. Rool back in Smash 4 and Rex), just not many care for them. Again, barely anyone are playing as the Mii Fighters so why is all this support going into the least played characters?

Really, I see a lot of care for them too.

It's just not on your end. People like Mii costumes. There's discussion every time a DLC character comes up. The Shovel Knight fanbase actually is proud to have a Shovel Knight costume. Not every costume is remotely not-cared about as you put it. Rex is like... kind of the only one people actively dislike as a whole, due to why it's in. And that's the only one with bad context towards it. The rest? They're all just good stuff to have fun and give references to other characters. And the only ones kind of unpopular generally beyond that are some of the hats that feel like wearing the skin of a person compared to being actually decent as a costume(K. Rool, Isabelle, etc.) Those do actually look bad. The rest, not so much. Geno was an amazing costume, as is actually most of them. Slime Hat is one of the few hat-only that was met well, mostly due to Hero already being there so it was the only proper way to represent the blob outside of a playable character, while still being high quality(well, all the costumes are anyway) and having great jiggle physics, showing off some cool moments in gaming.

I see tons of shots of Mii Fighters over and over again online. Clearly they're cared about a lot because it's talked about a lot. So I really don't see what you're saying is actually a thing. Mii Fighters were not heavily played online in Smash 4 due to being unable to do in certain kind of matches. I don't even remember if you can fully play them in all online modes in Ultimate either. Can somebody confirm that? It's also kind of hard to consistently figure out a build to play online in various matches due to having custom moves compared to others who have a clear moveset. When you actually are being ranked for your performance, you need a solid character you can practice with, not taking the time to figure out a perfect set up that may or may not work.

They're complicated characters and were even banned in tourneys due to not having a core moveset. Of course they aren't being seen as played much. They're banned in some cases.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah, they're only profitable because the Smash Fan are so rabid that they're will to buy an kind of DLC no matter what just so they can support the game despite never having an interest of using those costumes, which in turns makes the developers continue to focus on making more Mii Costume that will never be used instead of shifting focus on something that's more appealing. It's just an endless cycle of creating content that nobody have an interest of using just so they can give some kind of support. These are the same people who also who believe Sakurai can do no wrong and will defend every single decision ever made by him.

I don't think whales have that much power with normal DLC price models. Not everyone's gonna buy all of the Mii Costumes, but evidentally enough people find at least specific ones appealing enough to make the purchase. It's not really the cycle of doom you're making it out to be.

Echo Fighters only reason to exist to expand the roster, they are unnecessary. However unique fighters provide a unique playstyle.

What's not to get?

Well first, I didn't get all that from "I want to complete the roster. Also adding characters is unnecessary.". Second, I think Echo Fighters have quite a bit of value. Their movesets may not be unique to them, but they can add a different flavor to it, either with characterization (pretty much all of them) or putting a spin on the playstyle (Chrom has different combo trees & Ken is a rushdown character).

Honestly, I think DLC Echo Fighters would be the best of the lot due to pressures to make them enticing.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Slime Hat is one of the few hat-only that was met well, mostly due to............... ............................................................................................. having great jiggle physics, showing off some cool moments in gaming.

Well yes, there was indeed great care put into making the Slime Hat memorable and a high quality addition for good boys and girls of different ages.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well yes, there was indeed great care put into making the Slime Hat memorable and a high quality addition for good boys and girls of different ages.

I know you're joking around, but the point stands that they accomplished a lot with it. They created a new lifelike Mii Costume, a huge step up from previous stuff. They captured the character extremely well.

Plus, it's the first proper jiggle physics. And we shouldn't expect any other kind to follow. XD

 

[Deleted member]

Haven't bought a single mii costume. Still pretty funny how Undertale and Cuphead are actually in Smash Bros though.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Well first, I didn't get all that from "I want to complete the roster. Also adding characters is unnecessary."

I never said that adding characters in general was unnecessary. I said adding echo fighters was unnecessary because all they add to the game is to expand the roster size and due to the amount of characters we have already, that makes them unnecessary.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I bought the Sans and Cuphead mii costumes mostly for the music, but in the end I think I never heard them in game. While they are both excellent music, they really don't fit that well on any stages that they can play on.

 

[Krankees]

I bought Sans because there's no way I was gonna pass up having Megalovania in smash.

 

[Opossum]

I never said that adding characters in general was unnecessary. I said adding echo fighters was unnecessary because all they add to the game is to expand the roster size and due to the amount of characters we have already, that makes them unnecessary.

I think the issue was this.

You said they were unnecessary. But, you said additional DLC *is* necessary because you wanted a complete roster. However, that would mean that hypothetical echo DLC is both necessary to own and unnecessary at the same time. The conclusion to draw from this would be that DLC characters, regardless of the echo status, become necessary once they exist. However, that wasn't the point of the original post you responded to, which said that additional DLC in general didn't need to exist.

Basically the confusion started because you changed the argument.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

So the results of the last “poll” I did were pretty close, so I figured I’d do another poll.

Pick the 1 character you want to see get added to Smash the most.

 

[PLATINUM7]

So the results of the last “poll” I did were pretty close, so I figured I’d do another poll.

Pick the 1 character you want to see get added to Smash the most.

View attachment 269133

Sora

Didn't realise you made it one character at first.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

So the results of the last “poll” I did were pretty close, so I figured I’d do another poll.

Pick the 1 character you want to see get added to Smash the most.

View attachment 269133

Crash Bandicoot

I think the issue was this.

You said they were unnecessary. But, you said additional DLC *is* necessary because you wanted a complete roster. However, that would mean that hypothetical echo DLC is both necessary to own and unnecessary at the same time. The conclusion to draw from this would be that DLC characters, regardless of the echo status, become necessary once they exist. However, that wasn't the point of the original post you responded to, which said that additional DLC in general didn't need to exist.

Basically the confusion started because you changed the argument.

I didn't change any argument but whatever man. I'm not going to continue since everyone is getting confused.

 

[chocolatejr9]

So the results of the last “poll” I did were pretty close, so I figured I’d do another poll.

Pick the 1 character you want to see get added to Smash the most.

View attachment 269133

I'll go with Rex.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

So the results of the last “poll” I did were pretty close, so I figured I’d do another poll.

Pick the 1 character you want to see get added to Smash the most.

View attachment 269133

Sorry Crash and Phoenix, have to go with Master Chief

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

So the results of the last “poll” I did were pretty close, so I figured I’d do another poll.

Pick the 1 character you want to see get added to Smash the most.

View attachment 269133

Definitely Phoenix.

 

[Deleted member]

So the results of the last “poll” I did were pretty close, so I figured I’d do another poll.

Pick the 1 character you want to see get added to Smash the most.

View attachment 269133

I'm going to play Kingdom Hearts this week, so this might change...

But I'll say Rex for now.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

So the results of the last “poll” I did were pretty close, so I figured I’d do another poll.

Pick the 1 character you want to see get added to Smash the most.

Can't choose between Crash and Phoenix.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So the results of the last “poll” I did were pretty close, so I figured I’d do another poll.

Pick the 1 character you want to see get added to Smash the most.

View attachment 269133

Chief is the only one I have massive interest for. Though I do like most of the rest. As I don't play Xenoblade in general, well, Rex does nothing for me. Or at least watched LP's/parodies/etc. I have more interest in DMC and KH too.

Albeit I only outright played Crash and Halo, but one doesn't need to play to entirely like a character, heh.

 

[Calamitas]

So the results of the last “poll” I did were pretty close, so I figured I’d do another poll.

Pick the 1 character you want to see get added to Smash the most.

View attachment 269133

Phoenix, then.