Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Deleted member]

Smashboards: But what if Dante becomes an oppressive metagame monster just like Bayonetta? We don't want another repeat of Smash 4 Bayonetta!

Also Smashboards: Let's have Vergil in Smash.

The day we get Spiral Swords in Smash is the day Smash Ultimate dies, and I will love it.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Smashboards: But what if Dante becomes an oppressive metagame monster just like Bayonetta? We don't want another repeat of Smash 4 Bayonetta!

Also Smashboards: Let's have Vergil in Smash to represent Capcom Vs.

Fighters Pass 2:

O. Sagat (Super Street Fighter II Turbo)
Iori & Orochi Chris & Diamon (The King of Fighters 98)
Yun (Street Fighter III: Third Strike)
Vergil (Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3)
Petshop (Jojo HFTF)
Mag ****in' Neto (Mahvel Baybee)

 

[Deleted member]

Fighters Pass 2:

O. Sagat (Super Street Fighter II Turbo)
Iori & Orochi Chris & Diamon (The King of Fighters 98)
Yun (Street Fighter III: Third Strike)
Vergil (Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3)
Petshop (Jojo HFTF)
Mag ****in' Neto (Mahvel Baybee)

Honestly if you don't buy this pass, you're not a true fighting game fan.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Strider Hiryu would be pretty ace, I feel like his character archetype and moveset goes so well with the fastpaced gameplay, and it'd probably be easier to justify basing him entirely off of MvC since his own series (is it even a series? I only know of the original game) is way smaller than the likes of Street Fighter, Mega Man and DMC.

I never played the original, only played the 2014 game and I've yet to beat it as I only started playing today but outside of the typical sword slashes he has a drop attack, sliding, robot animals, the rotating orbs that shoot projectiles, throwing knifes and a dash. The main gimmick of the game is moreso what plasma your sword has, which so far for my playthrough has one that reflects lasers, an explosive one that does more damage and can destroy shields easier and an ice one to freeze enemies. There's another one but I haven't unlocked it nor do I know what it does despite looking like a gravity themed attack
EDIT: The fourth power up is a sword beam

 

[Captain Shwampy]

It's SEGA's second most successful IP right now

That title belongs to Football Manager or Total War

 

[Seanapotamus]

Smashboards: But what if Dante becomes an oppressive metagame monster just like Bayonetta? We don't want another repeat of Smash 4 Bayonetta!

Also Smashboards: Let's have Vergil in Smash to represent Capcom Vs.

If either of them get in, it would only be a matter of time before EVO gets overrun by motivated players who main a Son of Sparda.

 

[SNEKeater]

I never played the original, only played the 2014 game and I've yet to beat it as I only started playing today but outside of the typical sword slashes he has a drop attack, sliding, robot animals, the rotating orbs that shoot projectiles, throwing knifes and a dash. The main gimmick of the game is moreso what plasma your sword has, which so far for my playthrough has one that reflects lasers, an explosive one that does more damage and can destroy shields easier and an ice one to freeze enemies. There's another one but I haven't unlocked it nor do I know what it does despite looking like a gravity themed attack
EDIT: The fourth power up is a sword beam

I was thinking on picking the Strider 2014 game, it is on sale on PS4, looks cool and fun and besides of that I'm in the mood for a 2D game of this style

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I was thinking on picking the Strider 2014 game, it is on sale on PS4, looks cool and fun and besides of that I'm in the mood for a 2D game of this style

It's basically a Metroidvania and the combat gives off that Dynasty Warriors euphoria for crashing through hordes of enemies

 

[SKX31]

I never played the original, only played the 2014 game and I've yet to beat it as I only started playing today but outside of the typical sword slashes he has a drop attack, sliding, robot animals, the rotating orbs that shoot projectiles, throwing knifes and a dash. The main gimmick of the game is moreso what plasma your sword has, which so far for my playthrough has one that reflects lasers, an explosive one that does more damage and can destroy shields easier and an ice one to freeze enemies. There's another one but I haven't unlocked it nor do I know what it does despite looking like a gravity themed attack

The gravity (Magnetic, whatever) themed weapon trades away spammability up close (which the other three, normal, fire and ice have) for range - the charged version can reach as far as 2-3 screens away (and activate switches for you from that far away). The magnetic kunai home in automatically and can be a godsend in certain situations (against swarms for example), and the magnetic dash stuns enemies it goes through.

Strider 2014's weaponry is a little different from Arcade Strider (NES Strider is a different beast entirely) and Strider 2 (which follows up on the arcade but has its own unique weapons). The weapon types and dash are 2014 things IIRC, for example, while 2 Strider has entirely mechanical robot animals and a super where he spams sword beams everywhere. Most attacks are the same through all games: the slide, animals, orbs (Oroborous, Capcom loves that word), kunai and general slashes. The first Arcade game is a trip though - especially the first level.

If Hiryu winds up in Smash (either as AT or character), I do believe he'll take mostly from Arcade + 2 (MvC Strider is mostly this out of tradition), with some 2014 and NES aspects thrown in as well.

I was thinking on picking the Strider 2014 game, it is on sale on PS4, looks cool and fun and besides of that I'm in the mood for a 2D game of this style

I fully recommend Strider 2014. It's a short but to-the-point Metroidvania / hack-and-slash (I don't consider it a platformer when the punishment for falling down is minimal health loss and that's it) and very enjoyable and tight with its design.

 

[Schnee117]

Smashboards: But what if Dante becomes an oppressive metagame monster just like Bayonetta? We don't want another repeat of Smash 4 Bayonetta!

Also Smashboards: Let's have Vergil in Smash to represent Capcom Vs.

Also SB: Let's have Zero, the OG Lightning Loops fighter.

Fighters Pass 2:

O. Sagat (Super Street Fighter II Turbo)
Iori & Orochi Chris & Diamon (The King of Fighters 98)
Yun (Street Fighter III: Third Strike)
Vergil (Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3)
Petshop (Jojo HFTF)
Mag ****in' Neto (Mahvel Baybee)

Needs more Toki

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Yeah, just want to throw in a few things based on what I read in the past five minutes.

Art style or design of a character doesn’t really matter much, especially in a crossover that has Mario (a shorter, rounder man will an abnormally shaped noise, head, and body parts) fighting Samus (intergalactic bounty hunter) fighting Snake (genetically enhanced super solider with typical human features) fighting Inklings (squid children) fighting Corrin (a sword user who can turn into a dragon) fighting Bayonetta (Umbra witch who can attack with her hair), among other things.

Like, the point of the crossover is to bring things that would never happen, together so that they can happen. That’s literally the point.
While I won’t point fingers, it really seems sometimes like people will say anything to make their preferred picks seem more likely. People said the same thing when Snake got cut from Smash and we got Mega Man and Pac-Man instead.

“Pac-Man and Mega Man seem more ‘Nintendo’, so it makes sense that they’re in the game. Snake doesn’t fit as much.”

I mean that’s great. But Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man aren’t Nintendo characters even if they’re cartoony.

Some of it sorta goes back to the whole thing with Nintendo purism, which is what basically started as this idea that 3rd parties should just stop altogether, as if adding hype-worthy characters from non-Nintendo characters was inherently worse than adding 3rd string side characters from Nintendo games.

I don’t know, everybody can have their preferences, but like, some of the reasons we come up with to make some characters not look good get silly. Unless we’re talking about keeping things PG, I don’t really think art style would have as huge of an impact when the entire roster already tells us otherwise.

 

[Deleted member]

Smashboards: But what if Dante becomes an oppressive metagame monster just like Bayonetta? We don't want another repeat of Smash 4 Bayonetta!

Also Smashboards: Let's have Vergil in Smash to represent Capcom Vs.

Definitely agree on the first point and why I'm so scared of him getting in in the first place. Not that I'm against the character or anything, but Smash's design philosophy makes them stay true to their home game.

Ultimate is already a balanced game yet it seems that they already want to ruin what is already their ideal roster balance.

 

[Flyboy]

Definitely agree on the first point and why I'm so scared of him getting in in the first place. Not that I'm against the character or anything, but Smash's design philosophy makes them stay true to their home game.

Ultimate is already a balanced game yet it seems that they already want to ruin what is already their ideal roster balance.

The cool and exciting thing about Sakurai and Ultimate's balance in general is that he can incorporate any character and have them be balanced. The only reason Bayonetta wasn't balanced in 4 was because by that point dev time had shifted to Ultimate and the 3DS had patch limits.

You really need to stop this. No character added to Smash is going to be inherently broken unless it's like, Master Hand or something.

 

[Will]

Definitely agree on the first point and why I'm so scared of him getting in in the first place. Not that I'm against the character or anything, but Smash's design philosophy makes them stay true to their home game.

Ultimate is already a balanced game yet it seems that they already want to ruin what is already their ideal roster balance.

imagine being scared of funny woohoo pizza man

also dude it already happened before

 

[Cosmic77]

The only characters I think we really have to worry about are the last two or three, and it doesn't really matter who or what they are. They should patch those characters if they end up being broken, but we don't know how long updates will go on after the final amiibo release.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

i for one welcome our new funny woohoo pizza man overlord

 

[Will]

wouldnt the funny woohoo pizza man's fears just be joker?

everyone fears him and mains him for being the supposed best in the game

 

[Dinoman96]

also dude it already happened before

It's almost like people don't want them to repeat that mistake

 

[Will]

It's almost like people don't want them to repeat that mistake

I used to not want Meta Knight in Smash 4 because I hated how OP he was in Brawl. I was told "that's pretty dumb".

Now people don't want Dante because of PTSD Bayonetta in Smash 4? I gotta say, that's pretty dumb.

 

[SNEKeater]

Dante can't be in the game because Joker already has Rain Storm in his moveset, therefore Dante would be at best an echo of his son Joker

 

[Schnee117]

It's almost like people don't want them to repeat that mistake

It's almost like they should take issue with the devs and balancing team instead of the characters themselves because any character could wind up overpowered.

 

[Idon]

Dante can't be in the game because Joker already has Rain Storm in his moveset, therefore Dante would be at best an echo of his son Joker

A lame version of rainstorm granted. Only uses one gun and doesn't start spread out before closing in. SMH, Joker.

 

[Deleted member]

Definitely agree on the first point and why I'm so scared of him getting in in the first place. Not that I'm against the character or anything, but Smash's design philosophy makes them stay true to their home game.

Ultimate is already a balanced game yet it seems that they already want to ruin what is already their ideal roster balance.

We live in a world where Hero has over 20 special moves and that's still considered balanced. Somehow I don't think Dante is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

[Dinoman96]

Honestly, when it comes to characters like Dante and Bayonetta, there's the old saying: "in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king."

They just fundmentally have the upper hand over everyone else because, well, when you get right down to it, Smash Bros. especially the games after Melee don't have that many combos. It's typically 2-3 hits before we reset back to neutral. Basically the thing that made Bayo broken in Smash 4 was because that she could do all these crazy long lasting combos that no other character could do. Sakurai's solution to fixing her in Ultimate was, well, nerfing her so hard that she's not even fun to play anymore. I think that's a bit telling.

I dunno. I just think the likes of Dante and Bayo feel more at home at, say, Marvel vs. Capcom, where everyone has bull**** multi-million hit combos. But that's just me.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I'm so glad you all are talking about Sega characters because I've got a surprise for you all: my latest Smash Underdogs article is about none other than Axel Stone from Streets of Rage!

View attachment 263640
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To those who are just learning about it now, Streets of Rage (AKA Bare Knuckle Japan) is a beat 'em up series created by Sega in the early 90's. The games were very popular and Streets of Rage 2 is often considered to be the best game of its genre. This city brawler has also recently come out of retirement in Streets of Rage 4, which will be releasing this year.

Read the article and learn more about Axel here!​

Also I noticed there has never been an Axel support thread in the history of this site so I went ahead and fixed that.

TIL Japan calls Streets of Rage "Bare Knuckle", what a lame-ass name.

Aside from that, great post! SoR needs more love, hopefully you can do with it what you did with SNK (be that educate people or will it into existence, I'm not picky).

Yakuza and Kiryu would fit Smash so well even if it doesn't look like that for the people who never played the series. I'm completely onboard with him being in Smash. Not that I think he has a great shot, but it would be great.



If anything, I think Kiryu's biggest obstacle is that his series is called "Yakuza". Maybe it's just me being stupid, but I think that Nintendo wouldn't be very open to the idea of "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate x Yakuza", even if it's only for their public image. I don't think Kiryu himself of his potential moveset would be a problem, but the series name could be a small obstacle.

It's called Like a Dragon in Japan, so it probably wouldn't be a big deal.

 

[Idon]

You know what, I'm just gonna bring this up everytime the balance/Bayonetta argument is brought up.

Really don't wanna retype this whole thing considering the argument is about as ubiquitous as it is completely wrong.

The things that made (and I want to stress the past tense here) Bayo broken aren't present in Dante.

Dante doesn't have:

• A divekick (normally) that bounces enemies up for more comboes
• A multi hitting aerial rising move
• A dodge that slows down time when time correctly
• A dodge that puts him out of danger when almost timed correctly
• A rushing move that slides from across the ground and flips the opponent up for continued combos
• An aerial rushing move that can be used to continue comboes
• Moves that when their button is held down, last indefinitely
• A portal that summons demons with giant hitboxes
• Easily done comboes that actually mirror comboes built into the source game.

The comparisons made between Bayonetta and Dante seem to come from a place of ignorance and appear to be based on surface level analyses like "they come from the same genre of game" and "they both have guns" in which case, I have to ask why Bandanna Waddle Dee doesn't have the same level of scrutiny as Brawl Meta Knight.

In short:
IF Dante is the last DLC character (he might not be) and
IF he is broken (he might not be),
it will be for different unique properties than Bayonetta.
And if you want me to take you seriously as to why you think a hypothetical Dante would be broken, I would suggest talking about those properties than these surface level Bayonetta comparisons.

That's not even to mention the fact that other popular characters like 2B, Kiryu, Sora, Ryu Hayabusa, whoever else are a mix of more powerful, more mobile, more ooppresive or a combination thereof in the context of their original games and aren't subject to the same scrutiny.

 

[Droodle]

The thing that made Bayo broken during that time was the absolute atrocious balancing within the team at the time. She just had some ridiculously over tuned stuff, and it's pretty clear that the smash team didn't test for ladder combos within her kit.

Think about it:
Cloud: Broken. God tier frame data, and could force others to approach, and hit like a truck.
Corrin: Broken. I think most people forget how broken Corrin's counter was ON RELEASE. You would be 1 shotting people if you countered an uncharged smash attack at 30%. Not as bad as the other 2 though.
Bayonetta: Same thing as the other two. OP witch time, and had some good frame data too. Once people figured out her comboes, she could just 0-KO at most percents.

It's pretty clear that the Smash 4 team lacked firepower (particularly in the balancing department) during the last couple DLC characters. This time, the game/DLC has been way better balanced with Joker being the only notable TOP TIER DLC character (and even then Joker is nowhere near as bad as Smash 4 Cloud or Bayo). A good chunk of people even called Joker underwhelming for a week or so during after release.

They'd probably manage Dante just fine. How I'd imagine he'd work is that he'd hit like a wet noodle until he got to a finisher-esque attack. He'd also be pretty low movement during his actual combos (compared to Bayonetta).

 

[TwiceEXE]

The year is 2022. Sword Bayonetta has been nerfed 16 times but is still the only viable character in the game. Sakurai attempted to offer platitudes to the fans by adding an additional free DLC character; yet another cereal mascot, Tony the Tiger. People took to twitter claiming Tony was the counter that was needed, but GIMR quickly put out a video showing that Sword Bayonetta simply had to press Down + B and even Tony got styled on.

Nintendo announces that the next Smash game will drop "Bros" from the title to prevent PTSD caused by the Forbidden One.

 

[Schnee117]

Nintendo announces that the next Smash game will drop "Bros" from the title to prevent PTSD caused by the Forbidden One.

Exodia Gang rise up

 

[Ivander]

Aight

Which Capcom rep would you guys pick specifically to represent the VS. series (Marvel vs. Capcom in particular) in terms of references and mechanics?

My vote would probably be Zero.

Morrigan would be the appropriate answer, considering people know more about her from the VS. series than they do Darkstalkers. Literally, however, that would be one of the 2 OCs from Marvel vs Capcom 2, being Ruby Heart(despite originally going to be a Darkstalkers character) and Amingo.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm so glad you all are talking about Sega characters because I've got a surprise for you all: my latest Smash Underdogs article is about none other than Axel Stone from Streets of Rage!

View attachment 263640
​

To those who are just learning about it now, Streets of Rage (AKA Bare Knuckle Japan) is a beat 'em up series created by Sega in the early 90's. The games were very popular and Streets of Rage 2 is often considered to be the best game of its genre. This city brawler has also recently come out of retirement in Streets of Rage 4, which will be releasing this year.

Read the article and learn more about Axel here!​

Also I noticed there has never been an Axel support thread in the history of this site so I went ahead and fixed that.

I'm honestly believing a Beat Em Up rep will be in Vol 2 as the next (and probably last) legacy character for Ultimate, but the only question I had was whether if the Beat Em Up franchise in question would be either Double Dragon or Streets of Rage.

Either way, I wouldn't oppose Axel and the Lee brothers. My preferences may be for the latter since there's a lot more nostalgic value for Double Dragon, but the former would also be great nonetheless.

 

[Kokiden]

Smashboards: But what if Dante becomes an oppressive metagame monster just like Bayonetta? We don't want another repeat of Smash 4 Bayonetta!

Also Smashboards: Let's have Vergil in Smash to represent Capcom Vs.

Can't say I have a problem with this tbh.

That is, Dante being oppressive, or Vergil getting in (and maybe, perhaps, being oppressive too...)

Besides, we're talking about the team that think Bayonetta is balanced in Ultimate. None of the characters in the game are overly oppressive anyway so I don't think that will be an issue.

The day we get Spiral Swords in Smash is the day Smash Ultimate dies, and I will love it.

I will too actually lol.

 

[Opossum]

What if we got Mike Haggar?

 

[DarthEnderX]

What if we got Mike Haggar?

Less for him since Incineroar stole all his moves. But still want him.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What if we got Mike Haggar?

His gimmick is that when he does his Lariat special, he takes 25% damage but it does a raw 60 on sweetspot

 

[Guynamednelson]

Less for him since Incineroar stole all his moves. But still want him.

I'd be more willing to give him a chance than Incineroar.

 

[3BitSaurus]

The thing that made Bayo broken during that time was the absolute atrocious balancing within the team at the time. She just had some ridiculously over tuned stuff, and it's pretty clear that the smash team didn't test for ladder combos within her kit.

Think about it:
Cloud: Broken. God tier frame data, and could force others to approach, and hit like a truck.
Corrin: Broken. I think most people forget how broken Corrin's counter was ON RELEASE. You would be 1 shotting people if you countered an uncharged smash attack at 30%. Not as bad as the other 2 though.
Bayonetta: Same thing as the other two. OP witch time, and had some good frame data too. Once people figured out her comboes, she could just 0-KO at most percents.

It's pretty clear that the Smash 4 team lacked firepower (particularly in the balancing department) during the last couple DLC characters. This time, the game/DLC has been way better balanced with Joker being the only notable TOP TIER DLC character (and even then Joker is nowhere near as bad as Smash 4 Cloud or Bayo). A good chunk of people even called Joker underwhelming for a week or so during after release.

They'd probably manage Dante just fine. How I'd imagine he'd work is that he'd hit like a wet noodle until he got to a finisher-esque attack. He'd also be pretty low movement during his actual combos (compared to Bayonetta).

Along with what you said, development for Ultimate had already entered its initial phase back then. This may have played a role in the team not being able to balance the characters.

I think there's more about being OP than just being good. Joker is still a good character, but he requires a lot of skill to use at high level. Not just anyone can be MKLeo.

Being OP also implies that the character is relatively easy to pick up, in many cases. One example from other fighting games that always comes up is Cable in MvC2. Some particular team comps involving him can practically wall you out with little to no effort.

 

[Kokiden]

Ultimate is already a balanced game yet it seems that they already want to ruin what is already their ideal roster balance.

The only way for them to ruin the game is by nerfing characters now.

Like you said, it's balanced. So stop nerfing **** I say.

You really need to stop this. No character added to Smash is going to be inherently broken unless it's like, Master Hand or something.

This. Every DLC character so far has been fine.

They're devoting their undivided attention to creating and balancing these new DLC fighters.

They're not going to release an OP Son of Sparda as much as I'd love that.

 

[Sari]

What if we got Mike Haggar?

I mentioned it on a profile post earlier today, but I had a dream last night where Mike Haggar got confirmed for Smash (most likely a result of me doing my SoR write-up). Honestly I'd be totally down for Haggar.

I wonder how everyone else would feel about his inclusion though; on one hand he's Mike Haggar, but on the other hand his inclusion could hurt the chance of other Capcom characters.

 

[BZL8]

I still stand by Dante because of Itsuno's wink-wink nudge-nudge comments.