Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Dutch Raikuna]

Before I start, thought from your description that you're from Iceland. Turns out I'm wrong probably.

While I knew of the N64 I didn't know of Smash fully until the GCN launched and Melee was one of the launch titles. Me and my older brother got it on the spot.

Don't know why you thought I was from Iceland (I'm from Ireland) but hey I've been mistaken before. Also I can resonate with the getting it with the brother. My brother played Melee because of Mewtwo but I was far more into Smash.

To think that it's now been 21 years and this game has always been part of my love of video games. It introduced me to new franchises across Nintendo and other companies too - from Fire Emblem to Metal Gear, Golden Sun to Bayonetta. Many characters I've grown to want over the years of speculating like Ridley and King K. Rool made it in; the crazy dream wants of Joker, Cloud Strife and Banjo-Kazooie... And these crazy battles aren't going to be stopping any time soon. There's plenty of characters I'd still love to see be able to join Smash Bros; Phoenix Wright and Dante, Kazuma Kiryu and Reimu, but we now have well over 80+ characters. It's been quite the ride. Here's to many more battles in the future!

Your paragraph is perfect in how I love Smash Bros. As I use it as a reference point of my growth in gaming.

When Brawl came out in 2008, I was really into games like Super Mario 64 DS, just got into Pokemon and obsessed with the Tony Hawk's' games and more.

When Smash 4 released in 2014, I was really into Final Fantasy, Zero Escape, and just completed Persona 4 Golden a week before.

When Ultimate came out in 2018, I was knee deep in so many games across genres and platforms and stuff. From God of War to Octopath Traveler to Spider Man PS4 which I bought a week before in that year. I've grown up in video games.

 

[Lionfranky]

This looks like a fun template.

1. 2B (Drakengard / NieR) or Kiryu (Yakuza)
2. Doomguy (Doom)
3. Isaac (Golden Sun) or Geno (Super Mario RPG)
4. This one was too tough for me. Master Chief (Halo) maybe? They debuted over 15 years ago but I don't see people talk about Halo that much anymore even as new games keep getting released. Last time I heard any mainstream Halo discussion was Halo Reach. Basically I'm thinking in Terry terms, where they USED to be huge, and still are for that generation, but whose series has become more subdued in popularity over time.
5. Cinderace (Pokémon Sword and Shield)
6. ****ing uhhhh Enlightened One Byleth

Even low point aka Halo 5 sold way more than Doom 2016.

 

[Pinguino21v]

I was around since pre-Melee, and the thing about Geno's popularity during pre-Brawl is that it is vastly overstated. He was within the Top 10 most wanted characters, but usually at the lower end of that (around 8-10). He was about on par with Isaac in terms of requests. The likes of Sonic, Ridley, Diddy Kong, Wolf, Krystal, Mega Man, and King Dedede were a tier above him.

Thanks a lot for your writting. I'm keeping it saved for a later use.

 

[Ben Holt]

Even low point aka Halo 5 sold way more than Doom 2016.

But Doom is the grandfather of the genre, and of PC gaming as a whole.
Doom Slayer is to PC gaming what Mario is to console gaming, and what Pac-Man is to arcade gaming.

 

[Calamitas]

Oh Lord no, do you know the amount of people out there who hate:

1. Xenoblade Chronicles 2
2. Anime
3. Rex
4. Pyra's design
5. Swords in general

I'm fine with his inclusion, and might even argue he deserves it, but not for a single second do I think a sizeable chunk of people will not get really pissed at his inclusion.

Can confirm, if he were to make it in somehow, Rex would instantly be my most hated character in the game. In fact, in that scenario, I'd spearhead a movement to get him out of the game.
I'd call it "Rexit".

I'm just poking fun at how shill pick is only ever used when the character is disliked, though I do fear XBD will add bonus content to go "Hey guys it's Shoutychild Divingsuit from XB2!", So he'd shill that

Please, call him by his proper name: Brexit Xenobladechroniclestwo.

 

[cosmicB]

If this was asked a while back, apologies. What fighter do you think is going to be the first in the Second Pass that will get people to invest in it?

I honestly have no clue who it could be. The optimist in me wants to see a high fan (Smash) request/demand to be first (Geno, Waluigi or Lloyd Irving), but it will more than likely be someone that turns heads like Joker did (Crash, Earthworm Jim or Sora)

EDIT: Mobile Game Character would be quite a head turner (Katalina or Euden) Lets get crazy!

I think Nintendo would want to replicate the shock people had from Joker. Something that wasn't on anyone's radar for a variety of reasons (being associated with Sony being the biggest) but was hype anyway.

The problem is the bar has been raised super high to encompass pretty much everyone at this point. Like I feel even first party competitor characters like Kratos or Master Chief wouldn't turn heads as much as Joker did just because we're expecting the unexpected, though those 2 alongside Sora would certainly get close.

I think someone that didn't seem to be in the cards like a borderline 4th party like Hatsune Miku would be the closest to replicating the effect, but her in particular would also make A LOT of people mad for other reasons. The next best thing would probably just be the 3 I listed above.

 

[Lionfranky]

But Doom is the grandfather of the genre, and of PC gaming as a whole.
Doom Slayer is to PC gaming what Mario is to console gaming, and what Pac-Man is to arcade gaming.

Legacy didn't stop Cloud getting in before Hero.

 

[Renmazuo]

Can confirm, if he were to make it in somehow, Rex would instantly be my most hated character in the game. In fact, in that scenario, I'd spearhead a movement to get him out of the game.
I'd call it "Rexit".



Please, call him by his proper name: Brexit Xenobladechroniclestwo.

Neither Elma nor Rex got in. You can rest now soldier, the war's over.

 

[ceterisparibus]

But Doom is the grandfather of the genre, and of PC gaming as a whole.
Doom Slayer is to PC gaming what Mario is to console gaming, and what Pac-Man is to arcade gaming.

We got Cloud/Ryu before anything like Terry/Hero (despite the latter having "more history" than the former. DQ started off earlier than FF), and i'm sure we didn't get Sonic/Snake because of their history - they were all included because they are the biggest icons and extremely popular in their respective genres.

I cannot say the same of DOOM - Halo makes much more sense in terms of commercial and critical success among the mainstream. It's like Virtua Fighter/Tekken or Dota/LoL comparisons - Dota/VF started the genre, but LoL/Tekken expanded so much more and became the symbol of their respective genres (MOBAs and 3D fighters).

 

[Deleted member]

I cannot say the same of DOOM - Halo makes much more sense in terms of commercial and critical success among the mainstream.

That is much, but then again, we won't know who exactly Sakurai will pick.

 

[Will]

I cannot say the same of DOOM - Halo makes much more sense in terms of commercial and critical success among the mainstream.

You didn't forget, did you?

 

[Calamitas]

Neither Elma nor Rex got in. You can rest now soldier, the war's over.

It ain't over 'til DLC is over.

 

[snowgolem]

You guys think we’ll be getting Ancient Soldier as a character for vol. 2?

 

[ceterisparibus]

View attachment 259027

You didn't forget, did you?

That doesn't answer my point - halo as a franchise is much bigger in terms of financial success and mainstream awareness, so naturally comparisons to it being the cloud/sonic/ryu equivalent is much stronger than say, doom.

 

[Dinoman96]

The same applies to Sonic, and to a lesser extent Mega Man as well.

Yeah but Sonic was confirmed for Brawl and Mega Man confirmed for Smash 4. I'm talking about characters that have been discussed since the Brawl (or Melee) era that had to wait until Ultimate (Ridley, K. Rool, B-K) or are still waiting (Geno).

 

[Deleted member]

Imagine that we get both Master Chief and Doomguy in.

 

[Schnee117]

Both Doom and Halo have big legacies in popularising and revolutionising the FPS genre and pitting them against each other is ****ing asinine

 

[Will]

That doesn't answer my point - halo as a franchise is much bigger in terms of financial success and mainstream awareness

Perhaps, but DOOM has a bigger legacy. There's no way to compare the two and find some clear winner between the two. They shine in areas they shine, and the other does the same in the opposite side of what they lack.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I cannot say the same of DOOM - Halo makes much more sense in terms of commercial and critical success among the mainstream. It's like Virtua Fighter/Tekken or Dota/LoL comparisons - Dota/VF started the genre, but LoL/Tekken expanded so much more and became the symbol of their respective genres (MOBAs and 3D fighters).

I feel like the comparisons here get a little muddy, because while I absolutely see where you're coming from, I wouldn't call Halo the FPS equivalent of Tekken or LoL, as for the past many years now it's been far outshined in popularity and sales by both CoD and BF, it's merely the most popular FPS that is in the conversation for Smash. 3D fighters and MOBAs maybe aren't the best examples either as they're technically offshoot genres of traditional fighters and RTS games respectively, so while Virtua Fighter and Dota are innovators within their subgenres, they didn't pave the way on a grander scale like Doom did, they're more comparable to whichever game kickstarted the Battle Royale craze (PUBG I guess?), which is a subgenre of FPS/TPS games.

I think it's hard to say which is more likely, I think Doom has the bigger legacy, but Master Chief is definitely more of a character than Doomguy imo, and I feel like that tends to count for something. It gets a bit more complicated by the genre's lack of popularity in Japan as well, it's difficult to tell which perspective Nintendo or Sakurai would approach it from. Either would be cool by me though, I'd probably prefer Master Chief myself, but I'm not that invested in FPS games to begin with.

 

[Deleted member]

On the topic of Máster Chief, I keep getting these videos reccomended by Youtube's algorythm.

 

[ceterisparibus]

Perhaps, but DOOM has a bigger legacy. There's no way to compare the two and find some clear winner between the two. They shine in areas they shine, and the other does the same in the opposite side of what they lack.

Do you think legacy was what got sonic/ryu/cloud into smash instead of their popularity (don't use terry/hero - they weren't the first to join)

I feel like the comparisons here get a little muddy, because while I absolutely see where you're coming from, I wouldn't call Halo the FPS equivalent of Tekken or LoL, as for the past many years now it's been far outshined in popularity and sales by both CoD and BF, it's merely the most popular FPS that is in the conversation for Smash. 3D fighters and MOBAs maybe aren't the best examples either as they're technically offshoot genres of traditional fighters and RTS games respectively, so while Virtua Fighter and Dota are innovators within their subgenres, they didn't pave the way on a grander scale like Doom did, they're more comparable to whichever game kickstarted the Battle Royale craze (PUBG I guess?), which is a subgenre of FPS/TPS games.

I think it's hard to say which is more likely, I think Doom has the bigger legacy, but Master Chief is definitely more of a character than Doomguy imo, and I feel like that tends to count for something. It gets a bit more complicated by the genre's lack of popularity in Japan as well, it's difficult to tell which perspective Nintendo or Sakurai would approach it from. Either would be cool by me though, I'd probably prefer Master Chief myself, but I'm not that invested in FPS games to begin with.

Virtua fighter/dota were indeed pioneers in their genre and created the way for their genres, so the comparison is apt - and no one was talking about a BF/COD char so i dunno why it was even raised.

 

[Schnee117]

Acting like Ryu has no legacy or even that it played no part in him being in Smash is funny to me.
Mans the king of crossovers and the original Street Fighter.

 

[Will]

Do you think legacy was what got sonic/ryu/cloud into smash instead of their popularity (don't use terry/hero - they weren't the first to join)

Do you think popularity was what got snake/pac-man/shulk into smash instead of their legacy (don't use mega man/ridley - they weren't the first to join)

 

[SvartWolf]

At least Doom is played and liked outside of the US

 

[Dinoman96]

At least Doom is played and liked outside of the US

Is it, though? It's not like DOOM is very popular in Japan, either.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Virtua fighter/dota were indeed pioneers in their genre and created the way for their genres, so the comparison is apt - and no one was talking about a BF/COD char so i dunno why it was even raised.

Let me put it like this: The notable games that Virtua Fighter inspired are Tekken, DoA and Soul Calibur, as well as a bunch of games based on existing series like DBZ, Naruto and Godzilla. The notable games that Dota inspired are LoL, HotS, HoN and Smite, and that's being generous. The games that Doom inspired however are countless, the FPS genre is arguably the most popular genre in western gaming, and is filled to the brim with various subgenres based off of it. As the godfather of the genre practically every FPS game owes something to Doom, you don't get much more influential than that.

The reason I mentioned CoD and BF (and I even forgot CS) is because it shows that Halo isn't the definitive game in its genre like Tekken and LoL are to theirs. Obviously CoD, BF and CS aren't in the running for a Smash character, but just being the most popular FPS series that might get a character isn't all that prestigious by itself. Master Chief's bigger claim to fame is his status as Xbox's mascot more than anything else.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Is it, though? It's not like DOOM is very popular in Japan, either.

There's still
Australia
Europe
South America (where that user is located (Chile))
Africa
Asia

 

[Lionfranky]

Didn't Wolfenstein basically pave a structure for Doom? Then, how come Doom is talked more?

Both Doom and Halo have big legacies in popularising and revolutionising the FPS genre and pitting them against each other is ****ing asinine

It's usually Doom fans/fanboys talking **** at Halo's role in fps genre. I saw someone just saying Halo was mere a popular game back in day. And some people go as far as saying that Master Chief has little to no chance due to Japan factor, bur Doom Slayer has better chance when Doom has Japan problem far far worse. Talk about ignorance and hypocrisy. This is one of reasons what makes me hard to appreciate Doom.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Imagine that we get both Master Chief and Doomguy in.

Call it a feeling but I can see Master Chief getting playable and Doom Slayer being an Mii. I dunno why but probably given Nintendo's and Microsoft's relationship.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

>Geno's mii costume is still missing.
>People think he'll get in, in order to celebrate the relationship between Square Enix and Nintendo.
>No credible rumours for Sora.

C'mon we all know that Neku is clearly the best pick. He has the power of the hardcore KH fanbase backing him up, is a far more recent example of Square and Nintendo working together, is more relevant, and has loads of moveset potential.View attachment 259012
Neku with upgraded Geno mii costume has my vote. I"m only half joking, but Neku please.

Ah, I see you are a man of culture as well

is the TWEWY site still under that mystery maintenance or?

 

[OsirisOda]

Halo and DOOM are both amazing games in their own rights. Pretty sure neither are pretty popular in Japan but that may just be them never getting a proper following due to how much of a joke the XBOX is over there. Regardless of whatever country it's popular in, it can't be denied that both games were well recieved on all ends and sold over millions of copies. I'd say that's the golden standard of "genre defining."

Arguing over Halo and Doom, and which legacy holds more weight, is like comparing a glass of wine and a kamikaze cocktail. Clearly meant for different people within the FPS community.

 

[RileyXY1]

Didn't Wolfenstein basically pave a structure for Doom? Then, how come Doom is talked more?


It's usually Doom fans/fanboys talking **** at Halo's role in fps genre. I saw someone just saying Halo was mere a popular game back in day. And some people go as far as saying that Master Chief has little to no chance due to Japan factor, bur Doom Slayer has better chance when Doom has Japan problem far far worse. Talk about ignorance and hypocrisy. This is one of reasons what makes me hard to appreciate Doom.

Doom was far more popular. It was installed on more computers than WINDOWS 95. Wolfenstein also has Nazis and I don't think that Sakurai and Nintendo would want to put Nazi references in Smash.

 

[WeirdSandwich]

Didn't Wolfenstein basically pave a structure for Doom? Then, how come Doom is talked more?


It's usually Doom fans/fanboys talking **** at Halo's role in fps genre. I saw someone just saying Halo was mere a popular game back in day. And some people go as far as saying that Master Chief has little to no chance due to Japan factor, bur Doom Slayer has better chance when Doom has Japan problem far far worse. Talk about ignorance and hypocrisy. This is one of reasons what makes me hard to appreciate Doom.

Wolfenstein appeared earlier and proved that fast paced first person action games could work on PC, but while it was decently popular it did not reach the huge success of Doom. Doom simply reached more people and had a larger impact as a result. And Doom also introduced multiplayer deathmatch, modding, and speedrunning to PC.

Of course the mainstream popularity faded in the mid 2000s while the console FPS style that Halo pioneered took over. Yeah it's unfair to dismiss Halo as "just a popular game" since it's also hugely influential. But it's popularity and influence has also started to fade as COD, Overwatch, Fortnite, etc became popular.

In terms of smash speculation and current relevance to the gaming scene, I'd put Doom and Halo at pretty equal footing.

 

[Andwooooo]

I mentioned this in the Geno thread shortly after Byleth ruined a lot of people’s days, but here is a tweaked version of my FP2 prediction:

6 - Lloyd Irving - If honestly believe that Lloyd was meant to be the closer for the first fighter’s pass as a thank you to Namco, but he was swapped for Byleth when it was decided to do another one (even Sakurai knows that another FE rep can’t sell a pass). Sakurai already mentioned that if there ever was to be a Tales rep, it’d be Lloyd. He’s essentially the Cloud of the series, and his move set is very easy to translate. Heihachi is also a possibility since his costume is missing, but Sakurai has also said he wasn’t able to make him work. Slate another JRPG protagonist to start things off. I just wish they’d get Scott Menville back for his voice. Revealed Feb/Mar 2020. Unless Sakurai wises up and decides to tell us one or two fighters right when the pass goes on sale.

7 - Doom Slayer - I’m one of the dummies who still believe in the Cacomallow leak, so Doom Slayer is a no brainer to me. I don’t really have any horse in the race for the ol’ Doomguy, but I think he’d be a wild choice. Revealed E3 2020–beginning of the Direct just like Hero.

8 - Geno - As much as I’d LOVE for him to be FP7 because of the synergy with his game name, I just don’t see Sakurai being that clever with release order. Geno’s one of the last of the heavily requested characters not to be present in the game (spirit notwithstanding). Sakurai’s wanted him in since Brawl and his Mii costume is suspiciously absent despite having a perfect opportunity to be in since Hero. Personally, I always believed that he was going to be a bonus fighter outside of the pass, but now that we’ve got six more characters, there’s no reason to not give him songs and a stage too. Like. BK, he’s going to also be revealed at E3–end of the direct this time.

9 - Ryu Hyabasa - My original list had Waluigi in it, but even then I doubted an Assist Trophy promotion. Ryu shares a lot in common with Terry as a “who’s this guy” kind of pick. Ninja Gaiden is one of the last classic games with no representation, and he just fits. Better than Waluigi, personally. Ryu will be the first character revealed in 2021.

10 - Either Sora or Master Chief - Still can’t pick between the two of them. Nintendo wants them both, but will probably go with the lowest bidder. They’ll also wait until E3 2021 so they can win it very easily. Both characters have great move set potential, but I’m giving the Chief more of an edge here, partly because Microsoft and Nintendo have been very friendly lately, but mostly because I think Disney will charge more.

11 - We’re going out with another wimper here, which is why I’m thinking it’ll be Elma. Aside from 2 spirits, Xenoblade X has no Smash representation at all which is silly, because the music is incredible at the very least. I expect that, as soon as the Xenoblade remaster is released, Nintendo will announce another one for X, giving them a reason to advertise. Revealed Holiday 2021.

JRPG > Regional favorite > Fan favorite > Retro hero (who’s in a fighting game) > [Bonus] > Shill RPG pick with swappable weapons

FP10 is the only outlier, but only because Nintendo gets two E3s to advertise DLC instead of just one. It’s like poetry, it rhymes.

 

[Lacrimosa]

If Sora gets in then Disney probably wants 80% of the revenue the Fighter's Pass makes.
Can't imagine Nintendo strikes a deal with Disney.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I mentioned this in the Geno thread shortly after Byleth ruined a lot of people’s days, but here is a tweaked version of my FP2 prediction:

6 - Lloyd Irving - If honestly believe that Lloyd was meant to be the closer for the first fighter’s pass as a thank you to Namco, but he was swapped for Byleth when it was decided to do another one (even Sakurai knows that another FE rep can’t sell a pass). Sakurai already mentioned that if there ever was to be a Tales rep, it’d be Lloyd. He’s essentially the Cloud of the series, and his move set is very easy to translate. Heihachi is also a possibility since his costume is missing, but Sakurai has also said he wasn’t able to make him work. Slate another JRPG protagonist to start things off. I just wish they’d get Scott Menville back for his voice. Revealed Feb/Mar 2020. Unless Sakurai wises up and decides to tell us one or two fighters right when the pass goes on sale.

7 - Doom Slayer - I’m one of the dummies who still believe in the Cacomallow leak, so Doom Slayer is a no brainer to me. I don’t really have any horse in the race for the ol’ Doomguy, but I think he’d be a wild choice. Revealed E3 2020–beginning of the Direct just like Hero.

8 - Geno - As much as I’d LOVE for him to be FP7 because of the synergy with his game name, I just don’t see Sakurai being that clever with release order. Geno’s one of the last of the heavily requested characters not to be present in the game (spirit notwithstanding). Sakurai’s wanted him in since Brawl and his Mii costume is suspiciously absent despite having a perfect opportunity to be in since Hero. Personally, I always believed that he was going to be a bonus fighter outside of the pass, but now that we’ve got six more characters, there’s no reason to not give him songs and a stage too. Like. BK, he’s going to also be revealed at E3–end of the direct this time.

9 - Ryu Hyabasa - My original list had Waluigi in it, but even then I doubted an Assist Trophy promotion. Ryu shares a lot in common with Terry as a “who’s this guy” kind of pick. Ninja Gaiden is one of the last classic games with no representation, and he just fits. Better than Waluigi, personally. Ryu will be the first character revealed in 2021.

10 - Either Sora or Master Chief - Still can’t pick between the two of them. Nintendo wants them both, but will probably go with the lowest bidder. They’ll also wait until E3 2021 so they can win it very easily. Both characters have great move set potential, but I’m giving the Chief more of an edge here.

11 - We’re going out with another wimper here, which is why I’m thinking it’ll be Elma. Aside from 2 spirits, Xenoblade X has no Smash representation at all which is silly, because the music is incredible at the very least. I expect that, as soon as the Xenoblade remaster is released, Nintendo will announce another one for X, giving them a reason to advertise. Revealed Holiday 2021.

JRPG > Western/Japanese favorite > Fan request > Retro hero (who’s in a fighting game) > [Bonus] > Shill RPG pick with swappable weapons

FP10 is the only outlier, but only because Nintendo gets two E3s to advertise DLC instead of just one. It’s like poetry, it rhymes.

I think X has like 5 spirits actually - Elma (whose unlock conditions are very unique), Lin, Lao, Tatsu and the Skell. They’re all listed under OG Xenoblade Chronicles tho and there’s no X music so even though Elma IS a Spirit, she has all that in her favor

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

11 - We’re going out with another wimper here, which is why I’m thinking it’ll be Elma.

You see wimper, I see personal highlight

 

[Andwooooo]

I think X has like 5 spirits actually - Elma (whose unlock conditions are very unique), Lin, Lao, Tatsu and the Skell. They’re all listed under OG Xenoblade Chronicles tho and there’s no X music so even though Elma IS a Spirit, she has all that in her favor

Oh weird, I didn’t see the other three when I looked up the spirits.

You see wimper, I see personal highlight

Oh, I absolutely agree. But I don’t see her inclusion shocking the world in the way that Master Chief would.

But it’s so crazy to me that she wasn’t included in the base game, especially since Sakurai had no plans to put in Rex. Like, Nintendo loves Elma and even gave her a DLC mission in a game she wasn’t even in.

 

[Pinguino21v]

Every single DLC character so far have been at least known, or even renowned in Japan; even Banjo who was mostly a western pick, or Terry. Even the "better" Mii costumes Sans and Cuphead are liked in Japan.

I really don't see it change, especially for Doom or Halo, that have nearly no presence in Japan.

On the contrary, and strangely enough, I was seeing Rayman having a chance after Byleth presentation. However, on second thought, the release of Ubisoft's Mii costumes with the FP5 and not with Rayman at a later date leads me to believe that, no, Rayman won't be upgraded.

If Microsoft is still there for the second pass, I'm 95% sure it will be for Steve.

 

[Deleted member]

I personally feel that the legacy a character has to Nintendo isn't nearly as important as the series the character represents. Cloud for example although first appearing on the PS1 and having very minimal appearances on Nintendo consoles, Final Fantasy has an everlasting legacy on Nintendo consoles for over 3 decades. Cloud was chosen as a fighter because he's the default face of the series and rightfully so.

Banjo and Kazooie's another good example. Although being owned by Microsoft now, the legacy of the BK series is associated to the N64 era and that's why they were chosen over other Microsoft IPs. So I have a little more faith in DOOM than I do for Halo. That's just me though. Not saying the legacy a series has to Nintendo should be a huge or the only factor to justify a character getting in but I think it does help the case for some characters.