Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Dinoman96]

I'd say a lot of the Kid Icarus hate died down when we moved to the Wii U version of Smash 4, which didn't have that much KI stuff at all.

The main reason it had so many trophies, Smash Run enemies, and whatever on 3DS was because they could easily port over all the assets from Uprising, with both games being made by Sakurai and also on 3DS.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

People have yet to come up for a reason for Zelda, Pokemon, and Mario getting so much content throughout smash history so I still don't see a reason not to believe popularity has something to do with it.

The point my snark was coming from is that overall success of a franchise is not the only factor in considering a character.

It is a factor. It's just not the only one. Other potential factors include how interesting the character can be in regards to gameplay, how many people it'll make happy, and could we feasibly slap an existing character's moveset onto the model while still staying true to the character.

 

[OrpheusTelos]

Every time you guys start arguing about Fire Emblem, Sakurai adds another character to the roster. We literally have enough for an entire season of DLC at this point, so I hope you enjoy your entire post-pass lineup of Byleth (male and female as separate fighters), Dimitri, Claude, Edelgard, Rhea, the Gatekeeper, and Ferdinand von Aegir

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I have dinner and a quick wash and people are still arguing about FE huh. How about we discuss something less controversial like idk, which female characters from franchises not yet in Smash we should have. I propose Velvet Crowe

But consider this:



Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

 

[Yacobo]

Because it's completely irrelevant. The entire point of what people are saying is that there isn't a direct correlation between series sales and number of characters, nor should there be.

Then why does Mario have so much content?

Unless you really think Earthbound is a third the size of Zelda. Because if you want franchises to be proportional, they all need to be.

Obviously it's impossible to get the representation perfect to how big every franchise is. The argument is that it shouldn't be taken to the extreme where FE has pushed it.

What makes more sense to you:

To get 6+ characters in Smash you have to literally be one of the biggest video game IPs ever?

or

To get 6+ characters in Samsh you have to literally be one of the biggest video game IPs ever or be Fire Emblem?

If Mario, Pokemon, or Zelda were around as big as FE they'd have like 2-3 characters at the most.


Also didn't see you guys argue how "irrelevant" popularity was when hyping up 3H's "amazing" sales, lmao.

 

[Opossum]

Every time you guys start arguing about Fire Emblem, Sakurai adds another character to the roster. We literally have enough for an entire season of DLC at this point, so I hope you enjoy your entire post-pass lineup of Byleth (male and female as separate fighters), Dimitri, Claude, Edelgard, Rhea, the Gatekeeper, and Ferdinand von Aegir

I see nothing wrong here. Not only do I get my favorite from Three Houses with Edelgard, but Ferdinand also gets in, so I get my second favorite too.

 

[Calamitas]

It's sad to see Magnus' AT cut, though.

Regardless, my biggest want for a FE character is a unique weapon(which helps, since that's what Three Houses has in spades).

He just has other business to attend to.

. . .God, I want a new Kid Icarus game. . .

 

[FightingGhost73]

But consider this:

View attachment 255380

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

As much as id love this, Smash is for good boys and girls

 

[Sari]

Whenever people trash on Fire Emblem and say that it doesn't deserve another character, all that does is make me want a Three Houses character even more.

Three Houses being one of the best games on Switch
Each House leader having 2 cool designs to choose from
Three Houses having a godly soundtrack
House leaders having tons of moveset potential through the use of battalions and other features in Three Houses
House leaders having weapons not represented through the current FE reps, while Byleth has a freaking whipsword
People hating on FE means that a new character would probably be a heel, and thus more fun to use

With all 6 points in place, my desire for a Three Houses rep grows ever stronger.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'd say a lot of the Kid Icarus hate died down when we moved to the Wii U version of Smash 4, which didn't have that much KI stuff at all.

The main reason it had so many trophies, Smash Run enemies, and whatever on 3DS was because they could easily port over all the assets from Uprising, with both games being made by Sakurai and also on 3DS.

Honestly I feel Uprising could use a port to the Switch. Would work wonders for the game I think. Maybe make a sequel again or something.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Obviously it's impossible to get the representation perfect to how big every franchise is. The argument is that it shouldn't be taken to the extreme where FE has pushed it.

What makes more sense to you:

To get 6+ characters in Smash you have to literally be one of the biggest video game IPs ever?

or

To get 6+ characters in Samsh you have to literally be one of the biggest video game IPs ever or be Fire Emblem?

If Mario, Pokemon, or Zelda were around as big as FE they'd have like 2-3 characters at the most.

To get 6+ characters you have to have enough characters and fan demand to support it.

And for the record, Fire Emblem has 5 characters and 2 Echo Fighters. Two of these characters (and tangentially, one of the Echo Fighters) are only here because "Everyone is Here!".

 

[Yacobo]

I don't unders

I'd say a lot of the Kid Icarus hate died down when we moved to the Wii U version of Smash 4, which didn't have that much KI stuff at all.

The main reason it had so many trophies, Smash Run enemies, and whatever on 3DS was because they could easily port over all the assets from Uprising, with both games being made by Sakurai and also on 3DS.

Even on the Wii U version(and Ultimate) there's Palutena's Guidance. Uprising's content was pretty ridiculous for what it was.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Even on the Wii U version(and Ultimate) there's Palutena's Guidance. Uprising's content was pretty ridiculous for what it was.

Good. The more content the better I'd say. Even if it doesn't appeal to me specifically.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The reason Kid Icarus hate slowly vanished is because the franchise has gotten nothing whereas Fire Emblem is still getting games, and Smash fans can't bring it to themselves to throw shade at franchises not getting games anymore as that would dismiss all their favourites

 

[Yacobo]

To get 6+ characters you have to have enough characters and fan demand to support it.

FE lacking the latter.

And for the record, Fire Emblem has 5 characters and 2 Echo Fighters. Two of these characters (and tangentially, one of the Echo Fighters) are only here because "Everyone is Here!".

But they got in Smash 4 where everyone certainly wasn't there. I'd understand the "Everyone is here" argument if they didn't add yet another character and are probably going to put in someone from 3H.

 

[Schnee117]

Whenever people trash on Fire Emblem and say that it doesn't deserve another character, all that does is make me want a Three Houses character even more.

Three Houses being one of the best games on Switch
Each House leader having 2 cool designs to choose from
Three Houses having a godly soundtrack
House leaders having tons of moveset potential through the use of battalions and other features in Three Houses
House leaders having weapons not represented through the current FE reps, while Byleth has a freaking whipsword
People hating on FE means that a new character would probably be a heel, and thus more fun to use

With all 6 points in place, my desire for a Three Houses rep grows ever stronger.

Dread it
Run from it

Three Houses still arrives

 

[Opossum]

Then why does Mario have so much content?



Obviously it's impossible to get the representation perfect to how big every franchise is. The argument is that it shouldn't be taken to the extreme where FE has pushed it.

What makes more sense to you:

To get 6+ characters in Smash you have to literally be one of the biggest video game IPs ever?

or

To get 6+ characters in Samsh you have to literally be one of the biggest video game IPs ever or be Fire Emblem?

If Mario, Pokemon, or Zelda were around as big as FE they'd have like 2-3 characters at the most.


Also didn't see you guys argue how "irrelevant" popularity was when hyping up 3H's "amazing" sales, lmao.

"B-BUT MARIO!"

"But" nothing. There are more series in Smash than just Mario, in case you haven't noticed. All together, excluding third parties since that's a whole other can of worms, and excluding the Miis since they're labeled as the "Smash" series, there are 23 Nintendo franchises with characters in Smash. And guess what? If you want to compare the number of characters to series sales, there are tons of outliers, and even more if you make the sales proportional and not just put them in order.

All of this goes to show that you can't come to a conclusion based on, at most, three of the twenty three data points.

But it's clear your mind has long since been made. I checked your post history since it isn't very long and most of the posts stem from this debate, and lo and behold your very first post was also you complaining about the number of Fire Emblem characters. As such, nobody is going to be changing their mind here, and so I won't continue past this.

 

[Yacobo]

Good. The more content the better I'd say. Even if it doesn't appeal to me specifically.

It's less of not just appealing to me and putting in a ridiculous amount of content in from a single game that the majority of people playing smash have never played.

 

[pokemonfan32]

i have a feeling that challenger pack 5 will be kos-mos

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Put it this way.
There are four logical reasons to add, or withhold, a character.
1. Relevancy/Fanbase/Reaction.
Basically, if a character is relevant enough (ie Joker) or has a big enough fanbase (ie Banjo) then it has some merit as a roster pick. Then again, Piranha Plant and Wii Fit were added as surprise additions, to get interesting reactions.
2. Gameplay.
If a character is fun to play, and has an interesting moveset, then they make sense. Look at Bayo - she plays pretty much as she does in her original game. It's also why characters like Wii Fit are interesting, because it works based on the source material in an inventive and original way.
3. Legal Stuff.
If licencing can't be solved, the character's not likely to get in. That's why Bond wasn't in Melee. However, it can (in cases) work the other way too, I suppose.
4. Development.
Clone characters are easy to add - hence Falco, Ganondorf and Pichu being in at all to an extent. If a character is easier to develop, then they make sense as a roster pick - so having characters like Lucina and Chrom makes sense.

There's no secret Fire Emblem agenda, nor is Sakurai actively trying to piss you off - he is sinking his heart and soul into pleasing millions of fans across the globe. So what if you were salty at Dragon Quest representation, or Fatal Fury representation - there were people who had dreamed of characters like the Luminary or Terry to be in Smash. That's why K. Rool is in the game, and Isabelle, and Ridley, and why everyone returned in Ultimate, and why Sakurai even makes any effort at all - Sakurai wants to please people.

Anybody else remember the times when we were all excited that Ridley was actually getting into Smash, regardless of whether we were Metroid fans or not? Of people not being salty because a character got in? That's what this speculation should be - fun, not arguing about the supposed oversaturation of Fire Emblem content for the 9000th time.

Sakurai isn't personally trying to offend you, he's trying to please you. He's not trying to start an argument - in essence, Smash Bros is a way to end arguments! Just... don't take the existence of franchise representation in a crossover game personally, okay?

 

[RileyXY1]

FE lacking the latter.


But they got in Smash 4 where everyone certainly wasn't there. I'd understand the "Everyone is here" argument if they didn't add yet another character and are probably going to put in someone from 3H.

Two of the 6 FE characters in Smash 4 are DLC.

 

[StormC]

I have dinner and a quick wash and people are still arguing about FE huh. How about we discuss something less controversial like idk, which female characters from franchises not yet in Smash we should have. I propose Velvet Crowe

I want Velvet but I sadly think Sakurai will deem her not fit for good boys and girls.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I want Velvet but I sadly think Sakurai will deem her not fit for good boys and girls.

It's ok we'll give her the village and theme park mascot costumes instead

 

[XorahnGaia]

I don't know if someone has already brought up the new placeholder Switch SKUs from Gamestop, it's usually a somewhat reliable indicator that a Direct is coming soon

There was a problem fetching the tweet

.

This chart shows how big was the timegap between new SKUs showing up and past Directs

Spoiler

Source:https://www.reddit.com/user/MPw13/c...and_actual/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

 

[Yacobo]

"B-BUT MARIO!"

Because none of you are able to come up with a single reason for Marios content other than it's popularity. I've given you multiple chances to answer.

"But" nothing. There are more series in Smash than just Mario, in case you haven't noticed. All together, excluding third parties since that's a whole other can of worms, and excluding the Miis since they're labeled as the "Smash" series, there are 23 Nintendo franchises with characters in Smash. And guess what? If you want to compare the number of characters to series sales, there are tons of outliers, and even more if you make the sales proportional and not just put them in order.

There are outliers but none stick out nearly as much as FE.

But it's clear your mind has long since been made. I checked your post history since it isn't very long and most of the posts stem from this debate, and lo and behold your very first post was also you complaining about the number of Fire Emblem characters. As such, nobody is going to be changing their mind here, and so I won't continue past this.

I feel like I'm more open minded about this than the side that somehow believes that I think FE has never sold well despite saying it has multiple times(sometimes in the beginning of my post)

 

[Schnee117]

Every time you guys start arguing about Fire Emblem, Sakurai adds another character to the roster. We literally have enough for an entire season of DLC at this point, so I hope you enjoy your entire post-pass lineup of Byleth (male and female as separate fighters), Dimitri, Claude, Edelgard, Rhea, the Gatekeeper, and Ferdinand von Aegir

Nah I think there's room for more.
Time for the Seteth and Flayn team, Raphael and Ignatz team, Deduesday, Dorothea and Petra team and a Shamir and Catherine team.

 

[Cosmic77]

Deciding whether or not I should check back on this thread be like:

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Anyway if Velvet looked like this in Smash all the people who hate sword users would stop and praise Velvet and try to play her platformer games

 

[Calamitas]

It's less of not just appealing to me and putting in a ridiculous amount of content in from a single game that the majority of people playing smash have never played.

You also just described Earthbound, lmao.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The reason Kid Icarus hate slowly vanished is because the franchise has gotten nothing whereas Fire Emblem is still getting games, and Smash fans can't bring it to themselves to throw shade at franchises not getting games anymore as that would dismiss all their favourites

Imagine if the roster consisted only of living franchises. *shudders*

FE lacking the latter.


But they got in Smash 4 where everyone certainly wasn't there. I'd understand the "Everyone is here" argument if they didn't add yet another character and are probably going to put in someone from 3H.

You underestimate Fire Emblem's popularity. Lemme give you a breakdown:
Practically transcends his own series in terms of popularity.
A fan favorite character from a breakout hit of a game that didn't cost too many resources.
A veteran. That's all you need to have a ton of fan demand from Smash fans.
The most requested character from Fire Emblem Awakening. Many thought they would add him to Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3Ds/Wii U before Robin's reveal. Also didn't cost too many resources.
An incredibly popular character from a major game in the series.
(One of) The main protagonist(s) of the game that put the series into the mainstream.
A hated character from a divisive set of three games that sold pretty well anyways. The only pick here that's not great.

Because none of you are able to come up with a single reason for Marios content other than it's popularity. I've given you multiple chances to answer.

Bowser Jr. was added because he's a notable character from the series and Sakurai had an idea that made him unique to play, at least in concept.

 

[zeldasmash]

Because none of you are able to come up with a single reason for Marios content other than it's popularity. I've given you multiple chances to answer.

There are outliers but none stick out nearly as much as FE.

I feel like I'm more open minded about this than the side that somehow believes that I think FE has never sold well despite saying it has multiple times(sometimes in the beginning of my post)

1) My dude, Mario is Mario. Mario is likely the single most important video game franchise and the entire industry nowadays owes it's existence to it. There wouldn't be a Smash Bros. without Mario. Pure and simple.

2) Fire Emblem became extremely popular when Awakening released in both the US & Japan and both of them wanted new entrants from the game. Awakening is the game that made Fire Emblem a franchise about to meet it's demise to one of Nintendo's bigger moneymakers of the 2010's and the cast of characters is one of the primary reasons. Corrin is so far the only outlier, but it's mostly to the US.

FE lacking the latter.

Are you sure about that? Fire Emblem's roster is mostly comprised of fan favorites aside from Corrin. Marth is a fan favorite, Ike is a fan favorite, Chrom is a fan favorite, Lucina is a fan favorite, Robin is a fan favorite. Roy isn't as much of a FE fan favorite, but his fanbase has been growing and him being a Smash veteran is big and IS a Smash fan favorite which can extend to his FE fanbase as well. And when it comes to other characters that aren't playable Smash that are fan favorites and are quite frequently requested? Lyn, Hector, Anna, Tharja, Byleth, Dimitri, Edelgard, Micaiah, etc. Fire Emblem more then meets the criteria.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You also just described Earthbound, lmao.

Fun fact, Earthbound hasn't been officially released in Europe until less than a decade ago, took until the Wii U to get that mediocre **** here

 

[OrpheusTelos]

Nah I think there's room for more.
Time for the Seteth and Flayn team, Raphael and Ignatz team, Deduesday, Dorothea and Petra team and a Shamir and Catherine team.

Man all these arguments and still no sign of my girl Bernie. Hopefully we'll get her the next time we have this argument :/

 

[Yacobo]

You also just described Earthbound, lmao.

Uprising in Smash 4:
Pit's moves getting changed to be more accurate to Uprising
2 new characters
Multiple items
2 Assist trophies
Palutena getting unique customs
Palutenas Guidance
Large amount of Smash Run enemies
2, really ambitious stages
One of the only series to get character specific win quotes

There's probably something else I'm forgetting.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Man all these arguments and still no sign of my girl Bernie. Hopefully we'll get her the next time we have this argument :/

Bernie can't handle the stress of arguments so we chose to leave her out so she can do her favourite stuff in her room completely undisturbed

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Spoiler: Fire Emblem, a bit of Kid Icarus, and here and there. Post is too long on its own, so spoilered

The neat thing about FE and KI content is they both make a lot of sense. Fire Emblem didn't start getting content magically, it got more content because the series grew as well. It was relevant and took a while to get more than 2 characters per game. In fact, Smash 4 is an outlier in a way; Marth was supposed to be in Smash 64. It would've had 1 FE character. Melee went as planned, bar being lucky to get a bunch of clones(which accounted for 2/5 of the Zelda characters, no less!), and then Brawl was meant to have Roy back. Lucina was a lucky Echo and was going to just be an alt as well. So at most, without the Echoes, FE would have 5 at this point(that includes Chrom).

Kid Icarus was lucky to get 2 characters(Palutena was the initial plan), and the 3DS version got some extra content simply because it was easy to port over from Uprising. This is why the 3DS version overall is filled with content in general, easy to port models and such. Sure, it doesn't have a few Stage Bosses that the Wii U version has(Ridley was planned, same with Metal Face, at some point).

So these don't come out of nowhere. Some series are lucky to get one, and some have content other than playable characters. FE has a good amount of characters(4 fully unique, one that's still a semi clone, and 2 that are echoes, with only one of those echoes having a slightly different move). But it also has barely any unique stages, just being as generic as possible, no regular items beyond an AT, though it has a nice amount of music. The series is brimming full of new characters with different personalities, abilities, and weapons. It's also an extremely successful franchise. Keep in mind it's only barely below Pokemon and Mario in terms of characters(and Mario and Pokemon have significantly more stages and items too! It's far more represented than FE ever was at any point. In fact, until 4, FE had a terribly low amount of content. But the franchise wasn't doing well at that point, so that makes some sense. Inactive franchises or those who have an uncertain future can lose some content. That's one(of many possible) reason why Wolf was cut in 4. StarFox had nothing coming out as of late, and they moved his specials over to Fox's customs, so some of it was still kept at least. It's odd he didn't return as DLC, but then you remember that Zero got delayed beyond the DLC period, so it had no promotional value. He's also significantly more different from Fox than Lucas is from Ness, though to be fair they're both very unique, just one is a bit more unique overall in comparison). These things are all factors to begin with.

Let's keep in mind that Brawl and Ultimate are so far the only times FE got 1 new character. Likewise, 4 only got one new one in base that was unique, with Lucina being a type of clone(eventually labeled an Echo, though other Echoes may have different circumstances than Lucina and Dark Pit being costume upgrades. The closest they relate to costumes for the other ones that we know of is they removed the "similar" costumes when adding them, not that they were hard costumes in the first place. Though to be fair, it's doubtful it was similar to 4's case, as Sakurai planned out the base roster from the start. The only one we don't know if they were meant for DLC immediately or was moved to that is PP, since the data around its inclusion is very strange. It was worked on during the base game's development, which easily is what's needed to release it fairly early on in the next year. This is also why it has a Palutena's Guidance because of the timing. Other DLC was worked on too late for that to occur).

That said, having a FE character as DLC 5 would be a good thing for another reason; it would show that the whole "it must be 3rd party" mindset is gone, since that was never stated as is. The current choices are all unique weapon users, which would make it a non-clone option(in fact, Ultimate is the first time that FE got a newcomer that was only a clone. Every other game had a unique newcomer(Smash 64 had nobody, but was going to have unique too) and sometimes a new clone. Worth noting that of all the Smash games, there was never more than one new clone added for FE either).

 

[Yacobo]

1) My dude, Mario is Mario. Mario is likely the single most important video game franchise and the entire industry nowadays owes it's existence to it. There wouldn't be a Smash Bros. without Mario. Pure and simple.

And why is that?

2) Fire Emblem became extremely popular when Awakening released in both the US & Japan and both of them wanted new entrants from the game. Awakening is the game that made Fire Emblem a franchise about to meet it's demise to one of Nintendo's bigger moneymakers of the 2010's and the cast of characters is one of the primary reasons. Corrin is so far the only outlier, but it's mostly to the US.

And again, it doesn't even come remotely close to the other franchises with 6+ characters.

You underestimate Fire Emblem's popularity. Lemme give you a breakdown:

How about showing that they're popular in comparison to other series characters?

 

[Naoyatodo]

I don't know if someone has already brought up the new placeholder Switch SKUs from Gamestop, it's usually a somewhat reliable indicator that a Direct is coming soon

There was a problem fetching the tweet

.

This chart shows how big was the timegap between new SKUs showing up and past Directs

Spoiler

Source:https://www.reddit.com/user/MPw13/c...and_actual/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

It was posted before, but it was buried in about 5 pages of arguments about FE, so I wouldn't blame you.

 

[Schnee117]

Man all these arguments and still no sign of my girl Bernie. Hopefully we'll get her the next time we have this argument :/

She's looking after Piranha Plant.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

As much as id love this, Smash is for good boys and girls

Give her a longer skirt and the black void.

Her costume is far less egregious than Mai's.