Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Schnee117]

pubg has outsold super mario bros so I nominate Player Unknown himself to join smash

Not before... him

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

pubg has outsold super mario bros so I nominate Player Unknown himself to join smash

Careful, he’s going to sue Peach for using a frying pan

 

[Yacobo]

Well, that means Donkey Kong and Metroid shouldn't have got newcomers when neither of them are in a better position now than they were in 2013.

Yeah I forgot that they both have 7 characters and didn't have any hugely requested newcomers like FE did. My bad.

1) I pointed out to you that, indeed, at least 3-4 of the Fire Emblem characters we have in Smash are popular, or otherwise became popular after their inclusion. If you checked Fire Emblem fan polls, you’d probably regularly find Ike and Lucina in a good amount of them.

Again, popularity in comparison to other IPs.

2) Game development isn’t just a popularity contest. It comes down to a project plan, which includes a timeline of how much content can get added. Characters are picked based on bringing something new to the game, being a classic or being older. Lucina got in because, like Robin she was from the newest title and was easy to add based on Marth. She was also capable of satisfying fan demand, as there were definitely folks who wanted her. Believe me, I was in the support thread getting wrecked by supporters when I said she wouldn’t be a good newcomer.

Again, these aren't unique to Fire Emblem.

3) At the time of Smash 4, the focus was mostly on newer characters. K.Rool, Dixie, Ridley...not exactly new characters. There’s also the fact that it’s been speculated Sakurai didn’t realize how requested K.Rool actually was until the Ballot, which is where the costume and subsequent addition came from. At the time of Wii U, Ridley was seen as “requested, but too big” and made into a stage boss. This clearly changed with Ultimate.

And tons of other new games got shafted by FE. Even then there were retro newcomers (Mac and DH) and 3rd party characters were mostly old.

4) I certainly didn’t say you had to be grateful for Fire Emblem. Just that whining about it because you clearly don’t like the series isn’t going to change the fact that you’re unhappy with it. It’s also rather hasty to say any particular character from Fire Emblem at this point would be a clone when literally none of them use a sword as a main weapon, but also that a moveset =\= function or archetype. You can play Chrom the same way as Roy because of hitboxes. You can’t necessarily play Lucina the same way as Marth because of hitboxes. They may have similar moves, but they do not have the same function.

I've never once said that a 3H character would be a clone. I'm just saying that them not being a clone isn't something to be excited about. Having a new moveset is something we expect from every newcomer. Otherwise we'd be saying "Oh I'm suprised Banjo is unique despite not being from Fire Emblem"

 

[Will]

Yeah I forgot that they both have 7 characters and didn't have any hugely requested newcomers like FE did. My bad.

you underestimate how many people wanted chrom

 

[EricTheGamerman]

First of all, I'm not going to deny that 3H is a success. But its success along the other FE games is extremely exaggerated. It's not even in the top 10 best selling switch games(is unlikely to stay in the top 20 by the time switch is done getting new games imo) and wasnt even the 4th or 5th best selling switch title this year. It even lost out to the Links Awakening remake despite that games controversies.

Along with that 3H characters dont come close to getting requested as a lot of other front runners for smash despite the recency bias. So I dont see any reason to add a 3H rep.

Being on the Wii U, a flopped system, and still beating FE is a better indication than it winning on the same platform. Even then Splatoon 2 still sold more than 3 times as 3H, so there's that.

Even then, it's funny how you see it's unfair to compare a wii u game to 3ds when people are waving around Heroes when the majority of Nintendo Ips don't have a single mobile game. Totally a fair comparison.

Yes, a series that sold incredibly well on a continued upswing with the most well received Fire Emblem title in years by both fans and critics sold worse than ****ing Pokemon, Mario, and Zelda, so it's clearly undeserving of anything.

Also, Splatoon sold better than a **** ton of Nintendo games including: Every single Metroid, every single F-Zero, every Xenoblade, every Golden Sun, etc. It's just a really damn successful game on its own that tells you nothing about other franchises or their importance. Heroes has also outperformed every single mobile game Nintendo has released by 100s of millions in revenue, so it's worth bringing up. Dr Mario World, Mario Kart Tour, Super Mario Run, Animal Crossing Pocket Camp, and Dragalia Lost combined don't even compare to Heroes. So, yes, it's fair to bring up.

And furthermore, the Fire Emblem situation is directly the result of fans. People couldn't let Roy go and demanded Chrom be added in as a request, so you can directly implicate 2 of the 7 as the result of fan wants. Lucina is a fairly straightforward Echo as well, so that really gets us down to the 4 totally unique Fire Emblem characters and three of those are also beloved in the Smash fan base, so the only issue is Corrin really. And even then, Corrin is unique as hell and super fun to play, so the Fire Emblem thing is really just a non issue people like to yell at because their personal picks didn't make it in and they're unwilling to see how we arrived at 7 playable characters and only look at the mere existence of 7 playable Fire Emblem characters.

 

[BlueMonk]

Here's a topic for debate: Duck Hunt has outsold every Legend of Zelda game. Should Duck Hunt have more characters to match LoZ, or should LoZ have less characters, to match Duck Hunt?

 

[Yacobo]

It's not hard to have more Wii U sales when the competition you mention flatout didn't exist.

It was much harder for a Wii U game to sell as well as a 3DS game because of the lack of install base. That's why Smash 3DS sold much more than Wii U.

The reason the mobile comparison works is because Fire Emblem has beaten out Animal Crossing and not 1, not 2, but T H R E E Mario games. So by your logic, Mario and Animal Crossing are complete failures

It doesn't work because it doesn't make sense. If Mobile revenue was directly correlated to how big an IP was, the literall biggest video game IP of all time wouldn't be struggling so hard.

 

[Schnee117]

Here's a topic for debate: Duck Hunt has outsold every Legend of Zelda game. Should Duck Hunt have more characters to match LoZ, or should LoZ have less characters, to match Duck Hunt?

Solo Duck
Solo Dog
Solo Zapper
Solo Duck... 2
Solo Dog... 2

 

[Opossum]

Yes, a series that sold incredibly well on a continued upswing with the most well received Fire Emblem title in years by both fans and critics sold worse than ****ing Pokemon, Mario, and Zelda, so it's clearly undeserving of anything.

Also, Splatoon sold better than a **** ton of Nintendo games including: Every single Metroid, every single F-Zero, every Xenoblade, every Golden Sun, etc. It's just a really damn successful game on its own that tells you nothing about other franchises or their importance. Heroes has also outperformed every single mobile game Nintendo has released by 100s of millions in revenue, so it's worth bringing up. Dr Mario World, Mario Kart Tour, Super Mario Run, Animal Crossing Pocket Camp, and Dragalia Lost combined don't even compare to Heroes. So, yes, it's fair to bring up.

And furthermore, the Fire Emblem situation is directly the result of fans. People couldn't let Roy go and demanded Chrom be added in as a request, so you can directly implicate 2 of the 7 as the result of fan wants. Lucina is a fairly straightforward Echo as well, so that really gets us down to the 4 totally unique Fire Emblem characters and three of those are also beloved in the Smash fan base, so the only issue is Corrin really. And even then, Corrin is unique as hell and super fun to play, so the Fire Emblem thing is really just a non issue people like to yell at because their personal picks didn't make it in and they're unwilling to see how we arrived at 7 playable characters and only look at the mere existence of 7 playable Fire Emblem characters.

Minor nitpick, but Marth was also highly requested. He scored very well on Sakurai's Melee poll.

 

[BlueMonk]

Solo Zapper

fighter pack 5 is... YOU

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It was much harder for a Wii U game to sell as well as a 3DS game because of the lack of install base. That's why Smash 3DS sold much more than Wii U.



It doesn't work because it doesn't make sense. If Mobile revenue was directly correlated to how big an IP was, the literall biggest video game IP of all time wouldn't be struggling so hard.

Wait so it works when it proves FE is peepee poopoo and needs to be removed from Smash but it doesn't work when it proves Fire Emblem is successful? Ok.


Anyway I'm 6 hours into Berseria and I can conclude her stage would be a snowy ass mountain with a wrecked ship, I'm not a leaker but I'd be VERY surprised if that didn't happen

 

[Schnee117]

fighter pack 5 is... YOU

FP5 confirmed stuff
im stuff

 

[Cutie Gwen]

fighter pack 5 is... YOU

You's just a Mii echo smh why even bother, should have been Darth Iron Goku

 

[lordvaati]

Difference is Mario is big enough of a franchise to justify getting more characters. FE has already crossed that line several times.

I think Sm4sh more than established 5 years ago that a franchise's status has no basis on the number of playable characters it receives.
And considering how Ultimate has every prior character in past installments inside with just new additions restrictions placed on FE getting more characters just comes off as pettiness at this point.

 

[Yacobo]

Yes, a series that sold incredibly well on a continued upswing with the most well received Fire Emblem title in years by both fans and critics sold worse than ****ing Pokemon, Mario, and Zelda, so it's clearly undeserving of anything.

If you paid attention you'd see that I'm saying it doesn't deserve 8 characters, not literally nothing.

Also, Splatoon sold better than a **** ton of Nintendo games including: Every single Metroid, every single F-Zero, every Xenoblade, every Golden Sun, etc. It's just a really damn successful game on its own that tells you nothing about other franchises or their importance

None of which have 7 characters in Smash.

Heroes has also outperformed every single mobile game Nintendo has released by 100s of millions in revenue, so it's worth bringing up. Dr Mario World, Mario Kart Tour, Super Mario Run, Animal Crossing Pocket Camp, and Dragalia Lost combined don't even compare to Heroes. So, yes, it's fair to bring up.

Again, if mobile game revenue is indicative of an ips success, then why is Mario struggling so hard?

And furthermore, the Fire Emblem situation is directly the result of fans. People couldn't let Roy go and demanded Chrom be added in as a request, so you can directly implicate 2 of the 7 as the result of fan wants

Wanted enough to justify getting in while that same IP already has so many characters? Especially Awakening which was already treated generously in 4?

Lucina is a fairly straightforward Echo as well, so that really gets us down to the 4 totally unique Fire Emblem characters and three of those are also beloved in the Smash fan base,

And even then, Corrin is unique as hell and super fun to play, so the Fire Emblem thing is really just a non issue people like to yell at because their personal picks didn't make it in and they're unwilling to see how we arrived at 7 playable characters and only look at the mere existence of 7 playable Fire Emblem characters.

So I can't criticize characters because they're no unique, but I also can't criticize them for being unique and taking dev time. Please tell me in what scenario I'm allowed to criticize FE newcomers because it seems like no matter what you don't think there's a fair criticism for them.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think Sm4sh more than established 5 years ago that a franchise's status has no basis on the number of playable characters it receives.
And considering how Ultimate has every prior character in past installments inside with just new additions restrictions placed on FE getting more characters just comes off as pettiness at this point.

What? People hating Fire Emblem is mere pettiness? Say it isn't so! Next you'll tell me most of the hate Captain Marvel got happened because she's a woman!

 

[osby]

It doesn't work because it doesn't make sense. If Mobile revenue was directly correlated to how big an IP was, the literall biggest video game IP of all time wouldn't be struggling so hard.

Fire Emblem sold well in 3DS, Switch, and mobile devices.

If none of this means anything about how big it is, then we have no big franchises in Smash.

 

[Schnee117]

FE bad, Dk good, gib reddit gold

 

[Yacobo]

Wait so it works when it proves FE is peepee poopoo and needs to be removed from Smash but it doesn't work when it proves Fire Emblem is successful? Ok.

Game sales comparison: Something we can compare every single Nintendo IP to. Games sold correlates with how many people cared enough about a game to purchase it especially for series that have been around for years

Mobile revenue comparison: Been around for less than 5 years, the majority of Smash ips don't have a single mobile game, doesn't correlate with how many people actually play the game. (Marios 200 million downloads compared to Heroes 14 million)

So yeah I'd argue that Heroes just proves that FE fans are willing to spend thousands of dollars on waifus.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Is now a good time or a bad time to mention that Fire Emblem gets an entire section dedicated to it on Nintendo of Japan’s website?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Game sales comparison: Something we can compare every single Nintendo IP to. Games sold correlates with how many people cared enough about a game to purchase it especially for series that have been around for years

Mobile revenue comparison: Been around for less than 5 years, the majority of Smash ips don't have a single mobile game, doesn't correlate with how many people actually play the game. (Marios 200 million downloads compared to Heroes 14 million)

So yeah I'd argue that Heroes just proves that FE fans are willing to spend thousands of dollars on waifus.

We need to get rid of everyone except the Pokemon. I'm sorry guys, but Yacobo is the authority on this and sales are all that matter, if you aren't at the top, you're unworthy. The patch FP5 comes in with will remove all non-Pokemon characters, please understand

 

[Yacobo]

Fire Emblem sold well in 3DS, Switch, and mobile devices.

If none of this means anything about how big it is, then we have no big franchises in Smash.

First of all it didn't sell on mobile, it's a free game.

Second the argument was never that it didn't sell well. Did any of you actually read my posts? It's that every IP doing as well as FE doesn't get nearly as rewarded in Smash. You have to be as big as Zelda to get what FE has in Smash right now, which is ridiculous.

 

[osby]

Is now a good time or a bad time to mention that Fire Emblem gets an entire section dedicated to it on Nintendo of Japan’s website?

That's because Sakurai bias even though he doesn't work in Nintendo anymore.

Just like the development team wanting Corrin in and composers working on FE tracks by their own will are Sakurai bias.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

First of all it didn't sell on mobile, it's a free game.

Second the argument was never that it didn't sell well. Did any of you actually read my posts? It's that every IP doing as well as FE doesn't get nearly as rewarded in Smash. You have to be as big as Zelda to get what FE has in Smash right now, which is ridiculous.

I'm going to be blunt about this.

Zelda should have died. It has a boring world with uninteresting characters and the series focuses on the most boring aspects of it's setting. "Oh no, our kingdom is under attack by an evil magic dude" Like wow, real interesting story telling. If I wanted to play a fun video game, I'd play Fire Emblem because that game allows you to recruit rabbit people, lesbians, godesses, Matthew Mercer, a Persian named Claude and a fish named Lilith who eats fish to defend your fort in multiplayer

 

[Dinoman96]

Kinda funny to have Lyn stand near Marth and Ike when she's just an AT in Smash while the other two are playable lol

 

[Yacobo]

Not even trying to address my points anymore I see. A bunch of people projecting that I'm saying that FE deserves literally nothing and other things despite everything starting out civil.

 

[Schnee117]

I'm going to be blunt about this.

Zelda should have died. It has a boring world with uninteresting characters and the series focuses on the most boring aspects of it's setting. "Oh no, our kingdom is under attack by an evil magic dude" Like wow, real interesting story telling. If I wanted to play a fun video game, I'd play Fire Emblem because that game allows you to recruit rabbit people, lesbians, godesses, Matthew Mercer, a Persian named Claude and a fish named Lilith who eats fish to defend your fort in multiplayer

delicious, finally some copypasta

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Here's a topic for debate: Duck Hunt has outsold every Legend of Zelda game. Should Duck Hunt have more characters to match LoZ, or should LoZ have less characters, to match Duck Hunt?

No. Sales are not a factor for a character's addition. All they do is help judge popularity. Also, Duck Hunt has exhausted its entire character pool, even if we were considering the entire Light Gun series while The Legend of Zelda still has a bunch of notable characters that could be up for consideration.

Semi-related but still on topic, The Legend of Zelda series's issue with getting characters is that Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are the only ones that appear consistently throughout the series. Impa's appearances have become more and more frequent, but she's still usually an old lady who can't take part in any of the action. Vaati has appeared only twice, Tingle is pretty divisive as a character due to his very Japanese style of comedy, and Midna and Girahim have only one appearance in a non spin-off title. None of these characters have managed to break out of the fan bubble surrounding The Legend of Zelda series.

That being said I don't think adding any of the previously mentioned characters (except for maybe Tingle) would be a bad thing.

 

[Schnee117]

No. Sales are not a factor for a character's addition. All they do is help judge popularity. Also, Duck Hunt has exhausted its entire character pool, even if we were considering the entire Light Gun series while The Legend of Zelda still has a bunch of notable characters that could be up for consideration.

issa joke friendo

 

[Deleted member]

That being said I don't think adding any of the previously mentioned characters (except for maybe Tingle) would be a bad thing.

How dare you, Tingle is the best option for a Zelda character.

 

[Dinoman96]

Kinda funny to have Lyn stand near Marth and Ike when she's just an AT in Smash while the other two are playable lol

To follow up on this, on the Fire Emblem page, they actually have a segment dedicated to the FE characters that appear in Smash Ultimate...including the assist trophies.

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/fe/characters/smashbros/index.html

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

How dare you, Tingle is the best option for a Zelda character.

*Gets added in as a Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland character.*

 

[Yacobo]

>Mario and Pokemon having more characters than everyone else since 64

"nah sales have LITERALLY NOTHING to do with smash representation despite me using FE's popularity as an argument 2 posts ago"

 

[Deleted member]

*Gets added in as a Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland character.*

The absolute best timeline.

 

[RandomAce]

I’m not even surprised that we started the new year with another FE arguement, but still...

The sad thing is, it’s always the same type of person that always makes a fuss over FE in Smash and brings up the same points every time, so much so that you can accurately predict how the conversation will go. Like, at this point you have to just let the troll be and ignore him.

 

[Guynamednelson]

To follow up on this, on the Fire Emblem page, they actually have a segment dedicated to the FE characters that appear in Smash Ultimate...including the assist trophies.

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/fe/characters/smashbros/index.html

And it has Chrom looking in the opposite direction from everyone else.

 

[lordvaati]

First of all it didn't sell on mobile, it's a free game.

Second the argument was never that it didn't sell well. Did any of you actually read my posts? It's that every IP doing as well as FE doesn't get nearly as rewarded in Smash. You have to be as big as Zelda to get what FE has in Smash right now, which is ridiculous.

Much like Pokemon GO it makes it's money through in game purchases...and it makes a lot.

I think what many need to come to terms with here is Fire Emblem is to Nintendo what Green Lantern was to DC: an under the radar brand that struggled to make profits but when on the verge to cancellation saw a massive resurgence and is now one of thir forefront brands they promote in modern times. Discrediting the successes of the series is completely pointless, as is acting like the IP is still the niche game it was in the early 2000s.

 

[Schnee117]

And it has Chrom looking in the opposite direction from everyone else.

They swapped Chrom and Lucina around smh

 

[Opossum]

And it has Chrom looking in the opposite direction from everyone else.

In fairness, he's gotta show off the branded arm. The drawbacks of an asymmetric design.

 

[Deleted member]

To follow up on this, on the Fire Emblem page, they actually have a segment dedicated to the FE characters that appear in Smash Ultimate...including the assist trophies.

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/fe/characters/smashbros/index.html

I don't remember this character in Smash...