Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Yacobo]

I really hope you're pushing for a full Animal Crossing pass then, or else this would be entirely hypocritical. Because Animal Crossing would, objectively, be big enough to get six characters. And yet, lo and behold, a vocal segment of the fanbase complained when Isabelle got in.

So what, does franchise size only matter when it's a franchise you like? To me, it's clear that franchise size means nothing when compared to franchise activity. If F-Zero was the one with seven characters I could understand complaints.

I wouldnt be against the idea of animal crossing getting more characters, because unlike FE it's not grossly overrepresented Not sure where you thought I would or where you're even going with this argument.

Ti the f zero point, it's okay to criticize a franchise for being overrepresented for how popular it is when it isn't FE?

 

[Will]

90s

11 unique slots

Zelda took 1

2000s

23 unique slots (wolf fans could make an argument for 24)

Zelda took 2


2010s

29 unique slots

Zelda took 0

>we've literally only gotten one new zelda character in smash in the past decade

i dont know how to take that

 

[Yacobo]

you're allowed to say you just don't want a 3H character, it's a valid opinion

You act as if it's the ridiculous opinion when the other side went from "fe is popular enough" to "popularity doesnt matter anyway" as soon as the comparisons to other ips started.

 

[nessdeltarune00]

it’s likely next week for a direct

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Looks like my 1/8 theory may have been right on the money.


Time to go dark to avoid FP5 leaks.

 

[Will]

Looks like my 1/8 theory may have been right on the money.


Time to go dark to avoid FP5 leaks.

Oh, you choose now to leave? You stayed for the 500 other supposed FP5 leaks.

 

[3BitSaurus]

New year. New decade. Same old FE debates.

I love that people keep going back to that same discussion even though you can just... you know, ignore posts you don't agree with. Guess it's the need to "win" internet discussions talking, huh.

Keep being you, Newcomer Thread. Happy new year.

it’s likely next week for a direct

I think last time we got one of these was about weeks before the E3 Direct, if memory serves. So I think we're looking at mid-to-late January at the latest.

Gotta say, I find it really interesting that we have idea about who it is yet. Whichever company the character is from, it seems like they're really good at keeping info locked down,

 

[Opossum]

I wouldnt be against the idea of animal crossing getting more characters, because unlike FE it's not grossly overrepresented Not sure where you thought I would or where you're even going with this argument.

Ti the f zero point, it's okay to criticize a franchise for being overrepresented for how popular it is when it isn't FE?

You're grossly misrepresenting my point. My point is that F-Zero is a small, dead franchise, so I could understand complaints if Fire Emblem was in that position since Sakurai even said it's important for franchises to have a future.

I've always been a firm believer that franchise size doesn't matter so long as we get good characters out of it. That, and there's more to a franchise than just characters, to the point where I actually wouldn't say Fire Emblem is well represented due to its god awful stage selection, with only one of its three stages being an actual named location from the games.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

We should just put all the 3H characters in Smash, even Cyril as much as it pains me

 

[Calamitas]

Look at all those SKUs that came out yesterday, the SEGA Saturn approach is certainly a bold choice

Actually, yeah, good point. Why are these for yesterday? Shouldn't they be for the 31st of December 2020?

In retail it can be like, one week up to a few weeks, from personal experience never more than a month.

Ah, interesting. I also just looked up how long that took for the September Direct, and back then it was only two weeks. So if this is legit, then Direct soon.

 

[SneakyLink]

On the bright side, no spirit killings this weekend.

Event Tourney themed around Melee.

 

[Yacobo]

You're grossly misrepresenting my point. My point is that F-Zero is a small, dead franchise, so I could understand complaints if Fire Emblem was in that position since Sakurai even said it's important for franchises to have a future.

I've always been a firm believer that franchise size doesn't matter so long as we get good characters out of it. That, and there's more to a franchise than just characters, to the point where I actually wouldn't say Fire Emblem is well represented due to its god awful stage selection, with only one of its three stages being an actual named location from the games.

Sakurai also said "The character being fun to play is more important than being recognizable" "FE has too many characters" etc. so literally no matter what argument you're trying to make there's probably a Sakurai quote that will help it. That argument looks silly after the ginormous amount of content Uprising got in 4 and 7 years after it came out there's not a single sign of it getting another game.

"Good characters" is too vague of a statement to argue with, sorry.

To the last point, there's several I could make. Like how FE isn't bad off in this department at all. In Ultimate FE got more music remixes than any other IP, 2 new assist trophies, an item, the 3rd most amount of spirits, more unique victory tunes. Other franchises got less despite not having 7 characters.

But I'd like to question how the non character content only comes up when this debate happens, and why FE fans request more characters instead of more items, stages, etc?

 

[nessdeltarune00]

Oh, you choose now to leave? You stayed for the 500 other supposed FP5 leaks.

And they all turned out to be fake anyways, lol. Now we are completely in the dark atm, and since 1/8 is looking very likely, I’ll finally commit to it now.

(Also, I missed the KOS-MOS VGA thing because I avoided the internet on the week of the VGAs)

 

[SKX31]

And why is Mario's nintendos flagship? I find it hard to believe that pokemon are added solely for moveset potential when we got 3 shill human like reps in a row.

And a game selling 2 million on a console with multiple 10+ million sellers isn't impressive and the demand for any 3h character doesnt come remotely close to the most requested characters.

Besides the fact that success is a relative thing, it's also worth considering the fact that Fire Emblem's become a very important franchise and not just because of sales numbers. It's been a consistent presence for Nintendo since Melee, it's been on a upward trajectory most of the time and Heroes helped give Nintendo the confidence to dive into the mobile sphere further. The series has been consequential - it's one reason why Nintendo's been wanting to push it.

It's okay to just say you don't like FE characters - but going through mental hoops ain't gonna accomplish much.

Event Tourney themed around Melee.

With the Melee items to-

*Noticed that the list of items includes the Smash Ball*

SAKURAI!

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Not all series have the same amount of quality, recognizable, or requested characters.

Fire Emblem has more “main characters” to choose from compared to other series. They also are added because of gameplay opportunities. For example, Marth for gameplay and requests, Roy as fluffing the roster (and later because of requests), Ike for gameplay as a heavy sword user and being new, Robin for gameplay over Chrom, Lucina because of echo material (and being popular), Corrin because of gameplay potential (though this is one most people find controversial) Chrom added for requests.

To act as if Fire Emblem didn’t “earn” characters or some nonsense seems silly when ever the pick is put into context. I hate to even use the word “earns when it comes to fictional characters who are only created through the imaginative work on game devs, but Fire Emblem characters weren’t added willy nilly. Some were added by popularity, yes. However, this is a video game. Gameplay matters too.

Then again, I usually don’t care how many a series has as long as they’re fun, though that’s also because most of my wants have been met. I expect most picks will be new to Smash in the future in terms of series they come from, so “series representation” won’t be a massive deal if you ask me.

Though, as others have said, it also comes down to more than characters when we’re talking series representation.

 

[Calamitas]

I think last time we got one of these was about weeks before the E3 Direct, if memory serves. So I think we're looking at mid-to-late January at the latest.

Gotta say, I find it really interesting that we have idea about who it is yet. Whichever company the character is from, it seems like they're really good at keeping info locked down,

It actually happened before the September Direct as well. On August 22/23, to be exact.
. . .And was pointed out by Sabi.

 

[Yacobo]

Besides the fact that success is a relative thing, it's also worth considering the fact that Fire Emblem's become a very important franchise and not just because of sales numbers. It's been a consistent presence for Nintendo since Melee, it's been on a upward trajectory most of the time and Heroes helped give Nintendo the confidence to dive into the mobile sphere further. The series has been consequential - it's one reason why Nintendo's been wanting to push it.

It's okay to just say you don't like FE characters - but going through mental hoops ain't gonna accomplish much.

So how does that not apply to most other franchises in Smash? It's "upward" trajectory has been Awakening and it completely stagnated.

Would losing FE hurt Nintendo? Of course. But would it be nearly as consequential as a loss than losing Mario, Pokemon or Zelda would be? Not even remotely close.

 

[BlueMonk]

Sakurai also said "The character being fun to play is more important than being recognizable" "FE has too many characters" etc. so literally no matter what argument you're trying to make there's probably a Sakurai quote that will help it. That argument looks silly after the ginormous amount of content Uprising got in 4 and 7 years after it came out there's not a single sign of it getting another game.

"Good characters" is too vague of a statement to argue with, sorry.

To the last point, there's several I could make. Like how FE isn't bad off in this department at all. In Ultimate FE got more music remixes than any other IP, 2 new assist trophies, an item, the 3rd most amount of spirits, more unique victory tunes. Other franchises got less despite not having 7 characters.

But I'd like to question how the non character content only comes up when this debate happens, and why FE fans request more characters instead of more items, stages, etc?

mega man actually had more remixes than fe

 

[3BitSaurus]

It actually happened before the September Direct as well. On August 22/23, to be exact.
. . .And was pointed out by Sabi.

Interesting. Let's see if this one is legit then. From what I understand, there's some confusion with the dates? So it could actually be an older image?

 

[Yacobo]

mega man actually had more remixes than fe

Ment to say more than any other Nintendo Ip My mistake.

 

[osby]

With the Melee items to-

*Noticed that the list of items includes the Smash Ball*

SAKURAI!

That's a reference to how Final Smashes were planned even before Brawl.

But I'd like to question how the non character content only comes up when this debate happens, and why FE fans request more characters instead of more items, stages, etc?

Because they like the characters?

A lot of FE fans also ask for more stages and music, they don't have to choose one. Also, FE is good at creating a huge amount of characters with their own fanbases.

 

[CureParfait]

...Is it strange I'd rather have Byleth over Travis? I honestly enjoyed Three Houses a lot more than No More Heroes.

Not really since I would prefer Byleth over Travis as well.

 

[Yacobo]

Not all series have the same amount of quality, recognizable, or requested characters.

Fire Emblem has more “main characters” to choose from compared to other series. They also are added because of gameplay opportunities. For example, Marth for gameplay and requests, Roy as fluffing the roster (and later because of requests), Ike for gameplay as a heavy sword user and being new, Robin for gameplay over Chrom, Lucina because of echo material (and being popular), Corrin because of gameplay potential (those this is one most people find controversial) Chrom added for requests.

To act as if Fire Emblem didn’t “earn” characters or some nonsense seems silly when ever the pick is put into context. I hate to even use the word “earns when it comes to fictional characters who are only created through the imaginative work on game devs, but Fire Emblem characters weren’t added willy nilly. Some were added by popularity, yes. However, this is a video game. Gameplay matters too.

Then again, I usually don’t care how many a series has as long as they’re fun, though that’s also because most of my wants have been met. I expect most picks will be new to Smash in the future in terms of series they come from, so “series representation” won’t be a massive deal if you ask me.

Though, as others have said, it also comes down to more than characters when we’re talking series representation.

The "main character" is extremely arbitrary and inconsistent with the rest of the game. Where's Dixie? The other Xenoblade reps? It's a game about bringing in characters people like, not "who has the most main characters?"


The gameplay argument doesn't work because not being a clone isn't some amazing feature that we only get from FE. The majority of characters in the game aren't clones, so I don't understand why I'm supposed to be ecstatic when FE does the bare minimum that everyone just expects everyone to do.

And the diversity from FE characters is absolutely horrible. At least compared to Mario/Zelda/Pokemon. Even if you were extremely generous arguing that FEs characters are even close to being as diverse as Mario and Pokemon is ridiculous. 6 out of 7 of their characters have the same down b, think about that.

If you didn't "care how many a series has" you wouldn't be defending FE. I believe there are people that actually don't care about the characters but they're not defending the idea of FE getting an 8th character just so FE fans can complain that it's not Dimitri or whoever.

 

[Opossum]

Sakurai also said "The character being fun to play is more important than being recognizable" "FE has too many characters" etc. so literally no matter what argument you're trying to make there's probably a Sakurai quote that will help it. That argument looks silly after the ginormous amount of content Uprising got in 4 and 7 years after it came out there's not a single sign of it getting another game.

"Good characters" is too vague of a statement to argue with, sorry.

To the last point, there's several I could make. Like how FE isn't bad off in this department at all. In Ultimate FE got more music remixes than any other IP, 2 new assist trophies, an item, the 3rd most amount of spirits, more unique victory tunes. Other franchises got less despite not having 7 characters.

But I'd like to question how the non character content only comes up when this debate happens, and why FE fans request more characters instead of more items, stages, etc?

So we're at the point of discounting things Sakurai himself said. Got it.

I literally never said anything about music. Outside of the lack of Twilight of the Gods and Divine Decree, I have zero issues with Fire Emblem's music selection. I think it's great. I was specifically talking about stages.

And yes, multiple people have brought up the issue of Fire Emblem's stage choices. It's also part of the reason a Three Houses character would be great, because they'd almost assuredly come with a Garreg Mach stage. It gets brought up fairly often in Fire Emblem character threads here, but understandably stage discussion isn't usually a good fit for the NEWCOMER thread.

So in review, Three Houses is an incredibly successful Nintendo title released in 2019. It's the highest selling Fire Emblem title (or second...can't remember if it outsold Awakening yet but it's on track to at least), considering it's only behind Fates which combined the sales of Birthright and Conquest. It has zero characters in Smash despite the cast being a major highlight for many people. It has built-in stage potential to draw assets from. It's still getting content all this time later. And to top it all off, it's won so many awards both in Japan and internationally, including being the voter's choice for GotY at The Game Awards over Smash Ultimate, and being one of only four games to win more than one award there.

It's a popular, recent title that's brimming with moveset potential for all of the four feasible character options. It absolutely seems like something Sakurai would at least consider. Yeah, Fire Emblem has quite a few characters. Four unique fighters, one semiclone, and two echoes. But none of them are from Three Houses.

 

[Yacobo]

That's a reference to how Final Smashes were planned even before Brawl.



Because they like the characters?

A lot of FE fans also ask for more stages and music, they don't have to choose one. Also, FE is good at creating a huge amount of characters with their own fanbases.

Why haven't they been as vocal about it then? Why aren't there threads hundreds of pages long of FE fans wanting a new item?


The point here is that non character content isn't nearly as important as characters. I doubt there is as much discussion as there is about characters in this thread alone. Otherwise it wouldn't take someone arguing FE being overrepresented for it to come up.

 

[Schnee117]

It's "upward" trajectory has been Awakening and it completely stagnated.

Love to stagnate by *checks notes*
Releasing increasingly successful titles, getting spin-offs and cross overs with other properties and being one of the biggest mobile titles for Nintendo

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

The "main character" is extremely arbitrary and inconsistent with the rest of the game. Where's Dixie? The other Xenoblade reps? It's a game about bringing in characters people like, not "who has the most main characters?"


The gameplay argument doesn't work because not being a clone isn't some amazing feature that we only get from FE. The majority of characters in the game aren't clones, so I don't understand why I'm supposed to be ecstatic when FE does the bare minimum that everyone just expects everyone to do.

And the diversity from FE characters is absolutely horrible. At least compared to Mario/Zelda/Pokemon. Even if you were extremely generous arguing that FEs characters are even close to being as diverse as Mario and Pokemon is ridiculous. 6 out of 7 of their characters have the same down b, think about that.

If you didn't "care how many a series has" you wouldn't be defending FE. I believe there are people that actually don't care about the characters but they're not defending the idea of FE getting an 8th character just so FE fans can complain that it's not Dimitri or whoever.

I literally said nothing about Fire Emblem getting another character. I simply gave context to where every character got their place.

Marth got in because of requests and gameplay. Roy (one you must be angry about) was added to pad the roster, and then returned because fans asked for him to return. Ike came in because of being new, and being unique. Robin got in because he was different. Lucina is popular and easily padded the roster. Corrin got in because of gameplay (and is the most controversial), Chrom, who is an echo, literally go in because of popularity.

It’s as if you’re arguing both sides of an argument. If you’re not popular, you can’t be in Smash. But if you’re from a series that, evidently, you don’t like, popularity isn’t enough. But neither is gameplay. Which is it?

As others said, it’s fine to say you don’t want more Fire Emblem characters. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. But to act as if the others are wastes? Saying they’re a waste isn’t magically going to get you who you want. They’re in Smash, and are going to be in Smash Ultimate for the remainder of time. Why whine about it, especially when half of the picks were popular or bring something new to the game, which I would argue is equally as important?

 

[Will]

and why FE fans request more characters instead of more items, stages, etc?

the only other item from fire emblem i could realistically see being added was the Devil Axe.

stages? i don't know, garreg mach? not that many key notable areas, that's why 2/3 of the FE stages are just generic locations that most games have some type of semblance of.

gharnef would be an interesting assist trophy, i guess

 

[osby]

The point here is that non character content isn't nearly as important as characters. I doubt there is as much discussion as there is about characters in this thread alone. Otherwise it wouldn't take someone arguing FE being overrepresented for it to come up.

We talk about the lack of FF music every other day, what are you on?

 

[Will]

The "main character" is extremely arbitrary and inconsistent with the rest of the game."

It's a game about bringing in characters people like, not "who has the most main characters?"

You take that back. Claude von Fire Emblem is the most likable protagonist Fire Emblem has ever had.

Also you can just say you don't like Fire Emblem, because it's clearly obvious from context clues that you don't.

 

[Yacobo]

So we're at the point of discounting things Sakurai himself said. Got it.

He changes his mind and contradicts himself all the time. I think he just does whatever and then comes up with reasons afterwards. It works out most of the time imo.

I literally never said anything about music. Outside of the lack of Twilight of the Gods and Divine Decree, I have zero issues with Fire Emblem's music selection. I think it's great. I was specifically talking about stages.

The point was that FE has it pretty good even outside of non character content.

And yes, multiple people have brought up the issue of Fire Emblem's stage choices. It's also part of the reason a Three Houses character would be great, because they'd almost assuredly come with a Garreg Mach stage. It gets brought up fairly often in Fire Emblem character threads here, but understandably stage discussion isn't usually a good fit for the NEWCOMER thread.

In general non character content isn't even close to discussed or as important as character content. There's a reason this thread has 70,000 replies and there isn't a "Smash stage board" While they are nice, arguing that they even come close as meaningful as characters is silly.

So in review, Three Houses is an incredibly successful Nintendo title released in 2019. It's the highest selling Fire Emblem title (or second...can't remember if it outsold Awakening yet but it's on track to at least), considering it's only behind Fates which combined the sales of Birthright and Conquest. It has zero characters in Smash despite the cast being a major highlight for many people. It has built-in stage potential to draw assets from. It's still getting content all this time later. And to top it all off, it's won so many awards both in Japan and internationally, including being the voter's choice for GotY at The Game Awards over Smash Ultimate, and being one of only four games to win more than one award there.

It still isn't going to sell as half as much as BOTW. It lost to Links Awakening remake. It's not in the top 10 best selling Switch games. Do sales matter or not? Tons of series have literally no content in Smash. "Still getting content all this time later" Dude it's not uncommon for games to get DLC years after they release, it's only been half a year since 3H. And FE fans argued that "3H got snubbed" and how ****ty the game awards are. If they do then I'll question why it didn't get nominated for GOTY if it's apparently so loved?

It's a popular, recent title that's brimming with moveset potential for all of the four feasible character options. It absolutely seems like something Sakurai would at least consider. Yeah, Fire Emblem has quite a few characters. Four unique fighters, one semiclone, and two echoes. But none of them are from Three Houses.

It's not popular enough to justify FE getting it's eigth character, FE has absolutely stumbled and tripped over itself in terms of character variety. The characters don't get nearly as requested compared to other series characters.

Love to stagnate by *checks notes*
Releasing increasingly successful titles, getting spin-offs and cross overs with other properties and being one of the biggest mobile titles for Nintendo

"Increasingly" by selling the same amount of games as Awakening and all your spinoffs having lukewarm reception. FE Warriors was the worst selling switch exclusive for a while.

 

[Opossum]

the only other item from fire emblem i could realistically see being added was the Devil Axe.

stages? i don't know, garreg mach? not that many key notable areas, that's why 2/3 of the FE stages are just generic locations that most games have some type of semblance of.

gharnef would be an interesting assist trophy, i guess

I'd definitely argue against both of the former two points. All of the various status staves, things like hand axes or javelins, or even more specific things like the Geosphere would all be great items. That and I actually made a whole list of potential stages a while back. I'd post them here if they weren't off topic.

 

[Will]

"Increasingly" by selling the same amount of games as Awakening and all your spinoffs having lukewarm reception.

It's okay, we forget that it exists too.

 

[Izanagi97]

We talk about the lack of FF music every other day, what are you on?

I'm more annoyed by the lack of Metroid music (mainly in terms of songs from the Prime Trilogy, Super Metroid, and Fusion) personally.

 

[Will]

I'd definitely argue against both of the former two points. All of the various status staves, things like hand axes or javelins, or even more specific things like the Geosphere would all be great items. That and I actually made a whole list of potential stages a while back. I'd post them here if they weren't off topic.

opossum this entire debate is off topic right now go crazy go stupid

 

[osby]

He changes his mind and contradicts himself all the time. I think he just does whatever and then comes up with reasons afterwards. It works out most of the time imo.

It's really funny how some Smash fans give Sakurai grief for "he changes his mind!"

I mean, yeah, people do change their ideas about things, especially in years. Just because Smash fans are infamously close-minded to new ideas doesn't mean Sakurai can't think rationally.

 

[Yacobo]

I literally said nothing about Fire Emblem getting another character. I simply gave context to where every character got their place.

The context of the conversation was whether or not 3H should get a new character.

It’s as if you’re arguing both sides of an argument. If you’re not popular, you can’t be in Smash. But if you’re from a series that, evidently, you don’t like, popularity isn’t enough. But neither is gameplay. Which is it?

The argument is that FE characters are neither popular nor diverse enough to justify getting in.

As others said, it’s fine to say you don’t want more Fire Emblem characters. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. But to act as if the others are wastes? Saying they’re a waste isn’t magically going to get you who you want. They’re in Smash, and are going to be in Smash Ultimate for the remainder of time. Why whine about it, especially when half of the picks were popular or bring something new to the game, which I would argue is equally as important?

It's not going to guaruntee my most wanted but to go through Smash 4 of FE CONSTANTLY getting new stuff while Zelda, Dk, and Metroid got barely anything was ridiculous. Especially for the FE fanbase to still not be satisfied despite getting 50x more content than any other series of its size.

Again, why should I be grateful when FE doesn't give us another clone when it's what we're guaranteed a new(and usually more diverse than FE's) moveset no matter who gets in? The only way this argument makes sense if literally every non FE character were clones.

 

[Deleted member]

Talking about the lack of Fire Emblem items when the Fan isn't in? smh, this Fire Emblem bias has gone too far.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Since we're already completely off-topic: the new Melee Tourney, combined with the Smash 64 Tourney in August of the last year, implies we could also get Brawl and Smash 4 Tourneys down the line.

Heck, maybe also one for Ultimate and its newcomers. That would be one interesting thing to do after DLC is concluded.

 

[Deleted member]

Since we're already completely off-topic: the new Melee Tourney, combined with the Smash 64 Tourney in August of the last year, implies we could also get Brawl and Smash 4 Tourneys down the line.

The Brawl tourney had better have banana peels on high frequency.

 

[Will]

The Brawl tourney had better have banana peels on high frequency.

Everyone's tripping and everyone's Meta Knight or, on the off-chance, Snake.

smells like 2009