Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Ovaltine]

I just think it's a waste of time to point out that someone is making a subjective statement, as if they don't know. It adds nothing.

Here, you can make a better contribution by answering me this: Why do you disagree with my subjective opinion about violent characters in Smash?

That is understandable. However, I took your wording as veering towards an objective argument as to why Doomguy isn't possible in Smash. It seems I've misinterpreted your intent, so I apologize for that.

As for me, I personally just have an open mind. I think that Doomguy can work, especially on the basis of Bayonetta who, in my opinion, works. Joker is also from an M-rated game, and I think he works splendidly. Not much else I can really tell you there.

 

[Deleted member]

Which is why I wasn't talking about any character's chances with that particular person. If you followed the context of that line of conversation, you'd have noticed that.

Doomguy admittedly does have a non-insignificant chance to become playable.

I just think he'd be really ****ing stupid, and has no place in Smash. Along with every other M-rated character we have, just to set the precedent.

Oh, so you're one of those people. Look if you think they have no place that's ok, but having them since Brawl says otherwise :b

 

[3BitSaurus]

That is understandable. However, I took your wording as veering towards an objective argument as to why Doomguy isn't possible in Smash. It seems I've misinterpreted your intent, so I apologize for that.

As for me, I personally just have an open mind. I think that Doomguy can work, especially on the basis of Bayonetta who, in my opinion, works. Joker is also from an M-rated game, and I think he works splendidly. Not much else I can really tell you there.

As someone who played only the first Bayonetta, I was very skeptical about her being toned down. Turns out her playstyle is actually pretty close to some of her in-game combos, even if toned down. Ultimately, I think this is what matters. I'm not a big Castlevania fan, but some of my friends greatly praise the way the Belmonts control in Ultimate compared to their base games. Joker is a bit of an oddball, but that's to be expected, since his game is a turn-based RPG. And even then, he feels true to character. I mean, having sparkles in place of blood in his Final Smash changes literally nothing about All-Out-Attack's feel.

 

[Vrbtm]

You can easily capture the cheese factor of the series.

I don't disagree, but that's also not necessarily a side of Mortal Kombat that I think would be cool to have represented in Smash. I think there are more fans who'd rather see Scorpion rip Sonic's head off, or his heart out, or whatever he does, and they'll be disappointed when his Final Smash is just something super watered down and not like a true fatality at all. It would just be lame.

Link doesn't fight a cursed mask that oozes blood from it's eye sockets, or a giant mass of dead human corpses.

It doesn't really matter what enemies the character fights, because we're not talking about. They're not in Smash. Simon himself is just a guy with a few standard weapons. He doesn't have guns or rip anyone's throat out. He just has your typical medieval style weaponry, and uses them in a pretty T-rated fashion, which is acceptable.

Bayonetta kind of destroys your argument. I mean, I don't know about you, but I like the part in Smash where Bayonetta shoves Mario into a guillotine and chops his head off...

I said it numerous times already, but putting Bayonetta in Smash was a mistake. She shouldn't be in the game at all.

Even so, the violence in her games is so over the top as to be difficult to take seriously. Doom's violence is a different kind of over the top.

Oh snap! Lets see that get countered.

That was easy.

I think you're mistaken. This thread's purpose is speculating about newcomers, not character bashing without any real argument.

All I've been posting is real arguments.

Even so, you're the one who's mistaken. The post I was responding to was making a point about how he once thought Bayonetta wouldn't work in Smash, until he was proven wrong. Or at least, that's how he felt. That's where I chimed in and said, "No, I think your initial prejudice was correct. She really doesn't work."

This all being tangentially related to the overarching discussion of violent characters in Smash and whether they belong, which is 100% related to the topic of the thread: character speculation. Are some characters too violent for Smash DLC? That's the conversation taking place.

How did you become a moderator?

 

[Flyboy]

I'm just gonna say that Joker was censored in Smash as in the original his All Out Attack contained silhouetted blood which was changed to sparkles in Smash, and the fandom collectively went "haha, they're sparkles! Neat!". He was still faithfully translated.

Honestly, Mortal Kombat always had the blood and gore as a big selling point but it's not the enduring selling point. It's great in a horror movie kind of way, but the franchise has gotten to the point where the appeal is the characters first, gore second. It's a fun Kung Fu/slasher film combo and you play it to have a good time in this weird world where all your magical martial arts action figures can beat each other up.

With Doom, the appeal was the fast paced action, weapon variety, completely nuts soundtrack, and twitchy gameplay. It wasn't until new Doom that it become more truly gory, even though it definitely was violent for the time.

Toning down those characters isn't hard because their base tenets of what make them fun to play as aren't formed on violence. It's not like people want, I dunno, the Postal guy or Hatred Guy in Smash.

 

[Vrbtm]

As for me, I personally just have an open mind. I think that Doomguy can work, especially on the basis of Bayonetta who, in my opinion, works. Joker is also from an M-rated game, and I think he works splendidly. Not much else I can really tell you there.

How remarkably uncompelling.

Oh, so you're one of those people. Look if you think they have no place that's ok, but having them since Brawl says otherwise :b

No it doesn't. It just means that things that have no place in Smash have been in Smash since Brawl.

 

[Ovaltine]

How did you become a moderator?

How remarkably uncompelling.

For someone uppity about feeling insulted, you definitely don't seem to mind dishing it out. Yikes.

 

[Flyboy]

How remarkably uncompelling.

No it doesn't. It just means that things that have no place in Smash have been in Smash since Brawl.

If they're in smash they have a place in smash mate

 

[3BitSaurus]

I'm just gonna say that Joker was censored in Smash as in the original his All Out Attack contained silhouetted blood which was changed to sparkles in Smash, and the fandom collectively went "haha, they're sparkles! Neat!". He was still faithfully translated.

Honestly, Mortal Kombat always had the blood and gore as a big selling point but it's not the enduring selling point. It's great in a horror movie kind of way, but the franchise has gotten to the point where the appeal is the characters first, gore second. It's a fun Kung Fu/slasher film combo and you play it to have a good time in this weird world where all your magical martial arts action figures can beat each other up.

With Doom, the appeal was the fast paced action, weapon variety, completely nuts soundtrack, and twitchy gameplay. It wasn't until new Doom that it become more truly gory, even though it definitely was violent for the time.

Toning down those characters isn't hard because their base tenets of what make them fun to play as aren't formed on violence. It's not like people want, I dunno, the Postal guy or Hatred Guy in Smash.

Fade out. Smash logo appear. Screen remains black. All we hear is...

"Ah, I can tell this is gonna be an interesting day."

 

[Deleted member]

How remarkably uncompelling.

No it doesn't. It just means that things that have no place in Smash have been in Smash since Brawl.

It just means that this discussion isn't worth for me to give my attention as the characters are already in the game, a lot of people like them, and frankly I don't particularly care about your opinion on to why they don't fit.

 

[Vrbtm]

Toning down those characters isn't hard because their base tenets of what make them fun to play as aren't formed on violence.

Pretty unconvincing, and even then, "what makes them fun" is just one little factor.

If they're in smash they have a place in smash mate

I flatly disagree. There are at least ten characters who I'd remove on the grounds of them being undeserving.

It just means that this discussion isn't worth for me to give my attention as the characters are already in the game, a lot of people like them, and frankly I don't particularly care about your opinion on to why they don't fit.

Aw, you don't care about my opinion? I'm crushed.

 

[Gimmick-Hater]

I would quote you, but honestly have no idea how the whole quote thing works. As a result, I'll just tag you @ Vrbtm

As an MK fan, I disagree. Also, once again, you're ignoring my statement regarding Injustice. Injustice shows that a MK characters can definitely worked when toned down. Despite your claim that MK fans wouldn't like toned down MK characters, Scorpion was the best selling DLC character in Injustice despite the DLC for that game being stack (Lobo, Manhunter, Batgirl, etc... Plus he was a guest character in an all DC fighting game). Also, MK characters don't need to do fatalities. Have you seen some of the super attacks for MK characters in Injustice?

No heads being blown off, skin falling off, or even blood. Still badass, and many MK fans loved that.

My point regrading Simon is that he still comes from an incredibly violent series. Also, you make it sound like it's difficult to tone down these elements. I mean, it Ridley's reveal trailer her straight up KILLS Mario & Megaman by piercing them with his tail (not a tail whip, he straight stabs them through their bodies and it had to be censored). He obviously doesn't do that when it comes to actual game-play.

It doesn't matter if you think Bayonetta was a mistake. She's still in the game, and proves that hyper violent characters can be tone down for Smash.

 

[Vrbtm]

MK characters don't need to do fatalities.

Again, you're not wrong. It's just really, really lame. You can disagree all you want, but just know that you're not exactly selling me on this. To me, Mortal Kombat is about violence, nothing more. That's the appeal. There's nothing more to it than that, and it's a lost cause anyway since we all know the franchise is banned in Japan.

It doesn't matter if you think Bayonetta was a mistake. She's still in the game, and proves that hyper violent characters can be tone down for Smash.

I never once denied that they couldn't be toned down. I've only ever claimed that it's super lame when it happens, and fans generally don't like it.

They may not "mind," but they would in fact prefer if there was no censorship whatsoever. It's just natural.

 

[Gimmick-Hater]

I mean, no offense, but if you're so stuck in your ways then what was the point of that entire debate? All you had to say was that you think that'd be lame, but for some reason you continued on with these really weak counter-arguments.

Also, from a personal stand-point, I feel like that's a very shallow way of looking at the MK games. I know gore is a big part of the series, but there's so much more to the series than that. If you boil every series down to a single aspect, then a lot of them will seem lame.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

A few things;

Do not post gory images. It has been removed from all posts.

Do not make jabs at other members. That's uncalled for. Insulting others is against the rules.

Finally, don't double post. Just edit your messages instead.

And one morrrrre thing; please don't make it personal and please try to debate in good faith. Hanging onto a poor point when it's been proven the point holds little water becomes iffy. More importantly, forcing it upon others isn't a good idea. Lastly on that, bashing is indeed against the rules here. That's intentionally creating drama so that it will create a riff among fans and will be treated as trolling, flaming, or spam depending the exact context. I suggest it's best to drop this subject as it has become a dogpile on one person over their opinion as well. So let's please move on.

 

[Vrbtm]

Do not post gory images. It has been removed from all posts.

It is 100% necessary in order to demonstrate why certain characters don't belong in the game, but okay. You should also have said "even if you post it in a spoiler tag marked NSFW," because that's what I did. Nobody is posting gory images wantonly, as you made it sound.

Finally, don't double post. Just edit your messages instead.

Pretty cumbersome when I have five people responding to me all at once (not that this should even be against the rules anyway. Such a non-issue).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Best to drop it, as this shouldn't be public anymore regardless. You are free to discuss the full situation in PM's.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Right, yeah, that's what Doom fans want. No gore whatsoever. Definitely not part of the whole appeal of the series.

Gore is only part of 2016 Doom. The other games are tame.

If you don't agree and think Doom is intrinsically gory, that's fine, but since you're the only person who thinks that the burden of proof is in you to convince us.

Maybe ironically? No one actually thinks it's a good movie.

I think it's a good movie.

It is 100% necessary in order to demonstrate why certain characters don't belong in the game, but okay. You should also have said "even if you post it in a spoiler tag marked NSFW," because that's what I did. Nobody is posting gory images wantonly, as you made it sound.

Pretty cumbersome when I have five people responding to me all at once (not that this should even be against the rules anyway. Such a non-issue).

Imagine needing so desperately to be right that you start arguing the rules you break should be different.

 

[Vrbtm]

Gore is only part of 2016 Doom. The other games are tame.

That's one game too many. It doesn't help that it's the latest in the series, and the one that built up a whole new generation of Doom fans.

I think it's a good movie.

Good for you. I'll be sure to avoid your film recommendations.

Imagine needing so desperately to be right that you start arguing the rules you break should be different.

The rules here suck ass, that's not my fault.

 

[thisjustin2001]

Catching up on this whole debate, here are my opinions. Simon, Richter, Ridley and Snake (though he IS in a M rated game) are nowhere near the level of violence as MK and Doom. With that said, I just have one word to say to you guys, Bayonetta. Bayonetta is so overly sexualized and her game is so...SO violent and sequel gets even worse in that regard.

Even if Bayonetta weren't in Smash though, I'd still think that Scorpion and Doom Slayer would fit in Smash really well, because of my second point. Scorpion had barely any gore in his moveset when he was in Injustice, and Doom only became synonymous with intense blood and gore within the last three years. The series was pretty tame before that.

Even if these characters weren't ever toned down in other games and if Bayonetta weren't in Smash, I could still see these characters working. It doesn't even take too much of an imagination to just simply imagine the characters without the all blood and gore. Just my thoughts.

 

[Vrbtm]

Best to drop it, as this shouldn't be public anymore regardless. You are free to discuss the full situation in PM's.

edit: I will not allow the last edit of my post to be from a moderator.

Let's talk about characters who DO have a place in Smash, but aren't relevant enough. I've always felt this way about Klonoa.

Great fit, could happen, reps Namco, decently popular, but hasn't had a game in years. How are we feeling about him?

 

[Door Key Pig]

Banjo, Sora, and Dante are the only ones I can truly get behind 100%, and I'm not even a fan of Banjo-Kazooie, Kingdom Hearts, OR Devil May Cry.

Like everyone else, I think Erdrick is all but confirmed. I also think he's really boring and lame.

Klonoa would have to be my #1 personal choice if Sakurai personally asked me to pick a third party character with no regard for what anyone else wants, and it makes me happy that he seems to be a popular choice with other people as well, but I think his cult status and utter lack of relevance in gaming right now mortally wounds his chances.

Monster Hunter would be boring, but I could accept it by virtue of it being so odd that we have a Monster Hunter boss, but no playable rep. Travis Touchdown and Lloyd Irving wouldn't be very exciting for me, but I can still see them happening. Ryu Hayabusa would be cool-ish, but I share the uploader's concerns with his moveset being too derivative, since we already have two ninjas in the game (as well as one character named Ryu). 2B would be cool, I guess, and even though I don't care about Nier, I still think she has a chance, given that we have three M-rated characters at this point.

Crash and Spyro can't happen unless they're BOTH in the game, imo. They're basically counterparts, and you can't have one in a crossover fighting game without the other, as far as I'm concerned. And, frankly, wasting two DLC slots on these two characters would be kinda lame. I just don't see it happening for either of them. Marvel vs. Capcom 3 proved that both Amaterasu and Phoenix Wright can work in a fighting game, but I don't personally expect or want them. Chrono Trigger is a cool game, but we don't need Crono in Smash. Neku is eh.

Japan only likes Crash I think, he has more senior Playstation presence (and got the trilogy remake first) and them being counterparts didn't stop Crash from getting absolutely no new game things while Spyro technically had a lot going with Skylanders. I guess they stopped being counterparts for a bit there.

What is this line of thinking? Spyro isn't "owed" everything Crash gets or vice versa. Their identity isn't so inseparably intertwined that'd we'd have to have the other one, especially when this is already a game without other Sonic characters, the fourth playable Kirby character of recent memory or any non-big three Zelda characters.

 

[NickoRaptor]

Let's talk about characters who DO have a place in Smash, but aren't relevant enough. I've always felt this way about Klonoa.

Great fit, could happen, reps Namco, decently popular, but hasn't had a game in years. How are we feeling about him?

I haven't seen too much support for the guy, but maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.

Coming from someone who hasn't really touched a Namco game outside of Pac-Man, I'd personally be quicker to vouch for Dig Dug if we're going for classic Namco characters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I said that double post thing very badly. First, I should've said "Please do not double post. Edit your messages instead." Second, I should've said "if you do double post by accident, please report your own post or edit it to ask for a merge." In addition, I am lenient on double posts if they're clearly due to dogpiling, but not all are. I apologize for how roughly I said that. That was rather uncalled for on my part.

 

[Gimmick-Hater]

Regarding the presence of MK in Japan, you can still get the series on PC there. Also, while not an MK game, Injustice was released in Japan with Scorpion featured as DLC for it.

I don't think Scorpion, or any MK character will make it into Smash, but a man can still dream, and hey... You never know, maybe Sakurai will throw Western fans a bone by adding someone like Scorpion.

Anyway, since we have to move onto to different topics, some part of me wouldn't be surprised if they added they default for Fortnite. I know that's really unpopular & a bit controversial among Smash fans, but with how big Fortnite is, it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Vrbtm]

especially when this is already a game without other Sonic characters

False. Shadow and Knuckles are Assist Trophies, both Tails and Knuckles have Mii Costumes and appear in the background of Green Hill Zone, and there are a bevy of Spirits for the Sonic series as well. All of that counts.

the fourth playable Kirby character of recent memory

Has a Spirit.

or any non-big three Zelda characters.

They're not in the big three, like you said. There's plenty of them anyway, but not all of them are playable because not all of them have to be playable.

 

[NickoRaptor]

Regarding the presence of MK in Japan, you can still get the series on PC there. Also, while not an MK game, Injustice was released in Japan with Scorpion featured as DLC for it.

I don't think Scorpion, or any MK character will make it into Smash, but a man can still dream, and hey... You never know, maybe Sakurai will throw Western fans a bone by adding someone like Scorpion.

Anyway, since we have to move onto to different topics, some part of me wouldn't be surprised if they added they default for Fortnite. I know that's really unpopular & a bit controversial among Smash fans, but with how big Fortnite is, it wouldn't surprise me.

Scorpion or Doom Slayer would be terrific Western characters to add. So much history with videogame culture under their belt and influence in their respective genres. Either one for me would be a treat.

As for Fortnite, correct me if I'm mistaken but isn't it's popularity fading as of late? Seems like it's more of a fad than anything at this point.

 

[Robdelia]

Oh hey fellas how's it going what'd I mis-

 

[3BitSaurus]

Japan only likes Crash I think, he has more senior Playstation presence (and got the trilogy remake first) and them being counterparts didn't stop Crash from getting absolutely no new game things while Spyro technically had a lot going with Skylanders. I guess they stopped being counterparts for a bit there.

I think Crash has some sort of cult following in Japan, though it seems to be smaller than in the west. I think it shows in the fact that he's very much above Spyro in the "expected" characters from the japanese poll.

Klonoa... he's my most wanted Namco rep. Has been for some time now. I think he would be relly interesting and unique. Sadly, he would have to compete against Tekken, Tales, Soul Calibur, possibly Dark Souls and a few others and this is only on the Namco side, not even counting the Bandai stuff. As a character without recent appearances, he has even more competition within his company than characters like Banjo and Geno.

And it was really sad to see the series go like that. He could have essentially been Namco's Kirby, for all that's worth. I mean, comebacks are never impossible, but it doesn't look likely, for now at least.

 

[Vrbtm]

I said that double post thing very badly. First, I should've said "Please do not double post. Edit your messages instead." Second, I should've said "if you do double post by accident, please report your own post or edit it to ask for a merge." In addition, I am lenient on double posts if they're clearly due to dogpiling, but not all are. I apologize for how roughly I said that. That was rather uncalled for on my part.

Not the only thing you could've apologized for, but it's something.

 

[Flyboy]

I'm not gonna lie, the idea if a Western and Eastern pick being dual announced is cool to me. I once fantasized about DQ Hero and Dovahkiin fighting a dragon together, but the pass containing something crazy like Arle and Doomguy or Scorpion and Nakoruru would be a hoot. I love character variety.

 

[Gimmick-Hater]

Scorpion or Doom Slayer would be terrific Western characters to add. So much history with videogame culture under their belt and influence in their respective genres. Either one for me would be a treat.

As for Fortnite, correct me if I'm mistaken but isn't it's popularity fading as of late? Seems like it's more of a fad than anything at this point.

Fortnite is weird. I think it's popularity has faded a bit, but the series itself is still massive. You're still talking about game with over 250 million players, as well as the higest watched game on Twitch.

Not to mention the series has gotten a massive boost as of late with the whole Avengers thing, and now the John Wick crossover. Fortnite lossing a bit of popularity is essentially the equivalent of Disney lossing a bit cash because one movie failed. I don't it actually amounts to much.

Will probably have to wait & see, but the game has being going strong for 2 years now, and I don't think anyone can deny the cultural impact of the series.

 

[Robdelia]

I'd be fine with Fortnite Jonesy only if he had the entire default dance as either a taunt or a victory animation.
Or both. Both is good.

 

[Vrbtm]

No one who primarily uses firearms should be in Smash, or is even likely to be in Smash because of it, so that rules out any Fortnite crap.

 

[Ben Holt]

No one who primarily uses firearms should be in Smash, or is even likely to be in Smash because of it, so that rules out any Fortnite crap.

Bayonetta.

 

[Deleted member]

Bayonetta.

He's going to bring up that she proves his point.

 

[Vrbtm]

Bayonetta.

Doesn't belong in Smash either.

Just because there's precedent doesn't mean it should be expected, or even wanted.

 

[Sari]

What they heck did I just walk into lol. This feels like that third parties like Joker don't belong in Smash thread all over again.

On the topic of violence I'm genuinely surprised there is basically no support for a Rockstar games character. I guess it's just one of those things that's universally agreed will never happen.

 

[GoodGrief741]

No one who primarily uses firearms should be in Smash, or is even likely to be in Smash because of it, so that rules out any Fortnite crap.

Joker.

 

[Deleted member]

Personally a character that I would like but it's pretty much a longshot would be Adam Jensen of Deus Ex.