Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[N3ON]

Quality is better than quantity. Hero’s down-b is half-assed in comparison to Arsene.

And who decides the quality? You?

Or are you basing it on competitive viability? In which case I guess you're suggesting Sakurai deliberately forgoes trying to achieve competitive parity.

Either way, lol.

 

[Opossum]

You're telling me Dragon Quest being better represented than Final Fantasy isn't quality?

Take it from the actual Dragon Quest fan: Hero's magic spell list is a very faithful thing to pull off. Their practical uses resemble almost exactly what you use them for in the games (except Metal Slash, because that move just sucks even against metal opponents.)

The alts were so unexpected. You'd have to lie to yourself if you say that wasn't an amazing thing to do instead of just giving us Erdrick or Luminary.

No no, you see, by pointing this out, you're going against their KOS-MOS narrative.

Because if you insist that 1) Niche characters get better treatment, especially if Sakurai likes them and 2) Xenosaga is the same series as Xenoblade, a series Sakurai likes, then of course that would point to KOS-MOS being the best pick.

I mean it's kinda plain as day what they're doing lol.

 

[Droodle]

I know next morning about Xenogears. What kind of moveset would KOS-MOS have and what stage could represent her?

KOS-MOS is from Xenosaga (Bamco) rather then Xenogears (Square).

Square likes to pretend Xenogears never existed unless they know that fans will buy merchandise for it. That said, I would totally be down for Fei/Elly.

KOS-MOS has tons of moveset potential as discussed in this thread around 300 pages ago. She pretty much has guns, swords, cannons, scythes, etc all built into her. Search up gameplay of her in Project X Zone, I would post a video but I'm too lazy.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Hero's Down B is meant to represent RNG in the DQ series. TBH I'm gonna have hard disagree with you on this, as Hero's Down B is probably the most stupid fun move in the game. He'd be so much more boring if he was predictable.

RNG is indeed a thing in Dragon Quest, I got my first game over in 11 because the ****ing revive spell kept failing and the only one with a 100% success revive spell was the guy who died and I'm so ****ing mad about that even if it was 40 hours into the game

 

[Deleted member]

Hero's Down B is meant to represent RNG in the DQ series. TBH I'm gonna have hard disagree with you on this, as Hero's Down B is probably the most stupid fun move in the game. He'd be so much more boring if he was predictable.

Top Deck Kamikazee is the best thing to ever exist in Smash. I can't help but grin whenever I blow myself up.

 

[Night Gale]

Quality is better than quantity. Hero’s down-b is half-assed in comparison to Arsene.

Subjective but there is nothing half-assed about Command Selection. That's a lot of different s*** to incorporate, animate, and balance. It's RPG af. Including the rng.

Me: Why in the **** did they think it’s a great idea to make the Rex costume 25$ when not a single fighter is appealing directly to them?

This must be your first Dlc rodeo. It is incentive to buy the pass and try out characters that don't appeal to them. If they don't want it oh well no Mii costume. Business as usual.

 

[MooMew64]

RNG is indeed a thing in Dragon Quest, I got my first game over in 11 because the ****ing revive spell kept failing and the only one with a 100% success revive spell was the guy who died and I'm so ****ing mad about that even if it was 40 hours into the game

Yup, that how DQ be, lol.

TBH, I like it. Makes each battle feel unique and dynamic.

 

[Tako Tuesday]

Speaking of "Sakurai bias" I could list a number of things that I wish Inkling had in smash that didn't make the cut, such as more music, items from the series, their moveset not being for me and so on.

But at the end of the day, I'm willing to forgive all that because my most-wanted is in the game, they look great and I appreciate all the work Sakurai and his team put in regardless. I think they did a good job.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Top Deck Kamikazee is the best thing to ever exist in Smash. I can't help but grin whenever I blow myself up.

Nah fam, Hocus Pocus to Kamikazee is where it's at, when I get screwed over like that I can't help but think "Aww ****. Was fun while it lasted"

It gets even better when I ended up killing someone with it

 

[Droodle]

Top Deck Kamikazee is the best thing to ever exist in Smash. I can't help but grin whenever I blow myself up.

I once lost a match against a friend where I got Thwack top decked 2x in a row at like 20%.

Then I proceeded to thwack him 3x to get my revenge.

 

[N3ON]

One thing I do think is kind of questionable in Hero's design are the random critical hits. I get crits are part of DQ, but let's be real, they're a part of like... basically every RPG. Including, I think, all the existing ones in Smash.

It's just adding another layer of chance into a moveset that already relies heavily on chance, and it's not like it's an aspect super unique to DQ (it could fit almost any RPG character), so I just think at that point it's a bit superfluous.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I once lost a match against a friend where I got Thwack top decked 2x in a row at like 20%.

Then I proceeded to thwack him 3x to get my revenge.

For real, most of the my friend's screams were caused by dumbass whacks and thwacks, my friend who only dislikes the crits and Kaboom gets so ****ing tilted when I land that on him

 

[osby]

You're not a real Smash player until you self KO with Kaclang but also accidentally get a kill with it.

 

[Night Gale]

Hero 1v1s when you both stand in front of each other and take turns top decking until one wins is amazing.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Hero may not quite be my cup of tea, but I'd say he's probably the character that's most fun to fool around with

I think I have an obsession when it comes to Kamikazee in particular

I usually go out of my way to use it, just because it's hilarious

Also, Thwack's pretty satisfying to pull off, so I abuse that too

 

[BlackInk]

And who decides the quality? You?

Or are you basing it on competitive viability? In which case I guess you're suggesting Sakurai deliberately forgoes trying to achieve competitive parity.

Either way, lol.

Loling doesn’t make the serious players suddenly irrelevant, they look into how a game can be fun and how it can be frustrating. It’s just the fun for the casuals is completely different for the more serious players as they want wild stuff to happen (even if it’s total bull****).

No no, you see, by pointing this out, you're going against their KOS-MOS narrative.

Because if you insist that 1) Niche characters get better treatment, especially if Sakurai likes them and 2) Xenosaga is the same series as Xenoblade, a series Sakurai likes, then of course that would point to KOS-MOS being the best pick.

I mean it's kinda plain as day what they're doing lol.

A lot of cute loling, but not enough of a functional picture. I said Niche characters get picked BECAUSE Sakurai is self-compelled to pick them. That’s why I’m scared when he feels forced into doing a character. There could’ve been problems with handling Banjo and Hero did tot their companies, but we barely had any material on this subject matter. The material we do have is around Sakurai‘s attitude around the fighters and it seems like he is extremely biased for Joker and Terry yet indifferent of Banjo and Hero. Hero’s and Banjo’s feel like rough drafts for unrefined gimmicks instead of finalized products. Maybe he really liked Banjo and Hero but he didn’t get to portray them in the way he wanted (someone pointed to evidence of Hero’s character design change). What I know is how the quality between the fighter’s is so weirdly inconsistent, which points to issues in development.

 

[Dukemon102]

The Hero dittos when he came out was the most fun time I have ever had playing Smash.
Everyone gettting Thwacked, people blowing up themselves, Metal Slashing kacklangs, bounce shenanigans.
I almost die laughing when I used Hocus Pocus and I became small. And I still won by landing a crit lul.

 

[Deleted member]

RNG is indeed a thing in Dragon Quest, I got my first game over in 11 because the ****ing revive spell kept failing and the only one with a 100% success revive spell was the guy who died and I'm so ****ing mad about that even if it was 40 hours into the game

Gwen, meet me after your entire party gets wiped out because the final boss does his flame breath attack twice, then we'll talk about bull****.

I look at smash from a more technical standpoint. Being accurate to the games isn’t exactly a good thing. They could easily make Hero’s down-b a list of spells that depend on your and your opponent’s percents. You get the better ones when your opponent’s percent is higher or/and when your percent is higher. But, they made the move a huge mess.

Wait. So you're complaining that SNK and Persona 5 are better represented through their content... and then complain that Hero is well represented? Okay, I'm walking away.

 

[blackghost]

Actually, yeah. I think the old guy is pretty damn cool, like the way he beat the **** of his wife. It’s just fighting-type characters are particularly less distinctive in smash.

first off if you are gonna quote story you might want to give the entire story. heihachi was married to an oni that was literally friends with akuma.

next if you cant distinguish between terry, ken, and ryu in smash i cant help you. do you also get ganon and falcon confused or fox and falco? i know you get confused by marth and lucina.

 

[Deleted member]

One thing I do think is kind of questionable in Hero's design are the random critical hits. I get crits are part of DQ, but let's be real, they're a part of like... basically every RPG. Including, I think, all the existing ones in Smash.

It's just adding another layer of chance into a moveset that already relies heavily on chance, and it's not like it's an aspect super unique to DQ (it could fit almost any RPG character), so I just think at that point it's a bit superfluous.

I did an 8-player match where I got five criticals in a row. It was the most amazing feeling ever because you knew everyone in the room hated Hero.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Couldn't we say that all the Fighters in the pass are Sakurai picks in their own way? I mean Sakurai did choose the Heroes over the Slime, He loves SNK and Persona 5. Not sure about Banjo & Kazooie but I guess the opportunity was there to throw a bone for the fans.

Actually, I remember Sakurai considering the bear and bird in Melee, but dropped the idea because of the Rare buyout. Will try to find that interview.

So technically, yeah, every single DLC so far is "Sakurai bias".

 

[Gentlepanda]

Gwen, meet me after your entire party gets wiped out because the final boss does his flame breath attack twice, then we'll talk about bull****.

meet me after your entire party gets wiped out on the first boss of DQ11 stronger enemies because he did his slam attack twice

 

[osby]

A lot of cute loling, but not enough of a functional picture. I said Niche characters get picked BECAUSE Sakurai is self-compelled to pick them. That’s why I’m scared when he feels forced into doing a character. There could’ve been problems with handling Banjo and Hero did tot their companies, but we barely had any material on this subject matter. The material we do have is around Sakurai‘s attitude around the fighters and it seems like he is extremely biased for Joker and Terry yet indifferent of Banjo and Hero. Hero’s and Banjo’s feel like rough drafts for unrefined gimmicks instead of finalized products. Maybe he really liked Banjo and Hero but he didn’t get to portray them in the way he wanted (someone pointed to evidence of Hero’s character design change). What I know is how the quality between the fighter’s is so weirdly inconsistent, which points to issues in development.

Or, hear me out, considering people are voicing their satisfaction about how Hero and Banjo were handled for two pages, it's just you.

 

[Deleted member]

meet me after your entire party gets wiped out on the first boss of DQ11 stronger enemies because he did his slam attack twice

God. Is this game seriously going to be harder than Dragon Quest 1 and 2?

 

[BlackInk]

Wait. So you're complaining that SNK and Persona 5 are better represented through their content... and then complain that Hero is well represented? Okay, I'm walking away.

Hero is not well represented in the slightest. Pokémon and Persona has rng **** and they certainly don’t have that crap in smash. Making a character well represented also means making the design actually decent.

 

[osby]

Actually, I remember Sakurai considering the bear and bird in Melee, but dropped the idea because of the Rare buyout. Will try to find that interview.

So technically, yeah, every single DLC so far is "Sakurai bias".

All fighters are Sakurai bias, but some fighters are more Sakurai bias than others.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Are people seriously trying to form a narrative about Sakurai again? I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. Especially by people who stick around in this thread.

 

[Deleted member]

Banjo and Hero feel like better realized and designed characters than some characters who are in the base roster looking at you Mac
**** to claim that any of the DLC characters have gotten preferential treatment is laughable

 

[Deleted member]

Hero is not well represented in the slightest. Pokémon and Persona has rng **** and they certainly don’t have that crap in smash. Making a character well represented also means making the design actually decent.

The design is decent. Just don't get hit.

 

[BlackInk]

Banjo and Hero feel like better realized and designed characters than some characters who are in the base roster looking at you Mac
**** to claim that any of the DLC characters have gotten preferential treatment is laughable

There’s over 70 characters, some of them will be absolutely garbage just by probability alone.

The design is decent. Just don't get hit.

And People wonder why Zero doesn’t come back to smash.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually, I remember Sakurai considering the bear and bird in Melee, but dropped the idea because of the Rare buyout. Will try to find that interview.

So technically, yeah, every single DLC so far is "Sakurai bias".

Sakurai considered them along James Bond and other characters, he never gave a reason apart from grown up reasons iirc which he never expanded into. Could be the buyout or could very well be a logistics issue with the crunch development time Melee had.

 

[BlackInk]

Sakurai considered them along James Bond and other characters, he never gave a reason apart from grown up reasons iirc which he never expanded into. Could be the buyout or could very well be a logistics issue with the crunch development time Melee had.

The James Bond rumor is complete BS.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

That feeling when Sakurai bias is in full effect but you don't care because Sakurai ended up having the same interests as you and that means your guy gets special treatment.

 

[Opossum]

The James Bond rumor is complete BS.

It's not even a rumor lmao.

 

[Deleted member]

That feeling when Sakurai bias is in dull effect but you don't care because Sakurai ended up having the same interests as you and that means your guy gets special treatment.

Tfw you get your most wanted regardless of Sakurai bias and they're dope anyways.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Can we talk about how my new favorite bull**** thing in Smash discussion is the constant, "No, the unique gimmick that makes them specifically unique compared to the rest of the roster and was designed for them to be more unique while embodying traits of the original franchise doesn't count and thus the character is boring/dull/badly represented."

And 9 times out of 10 they'll support some crazy stupid gimmick with the characters they support just to further prove their own hypocrisy.


Also, **** people who insist everything somehow has to be equally represented to be enjoyable or have a place in Smash. That's not how the real world works and even something as represented as little as Final Fantasy still manages to get an absolute ton of fan service right and get freaking Cloud in the game with one of the best DLC stages (across both games) in Midgar. People still love that he's in and Cloud himself is always a huge deal to be in Smash. This idea of parity is how we somehow also end up with "quotas" for certain franchises, but then also somehow end up with people raging against people who might want a female character in. The idea that everything will be inherently equal with a thousand different moving parts, licensing agreements, time for development, etc. is just absolutely absurd. Just enjoy characters getting in that you like and don't stress about their parity with others. You'll enjoy Smash a whole lot more.

 

[blackghost]

i feel like people mad about movesets are people that are so focused on the competitive lense they fail to see the rest of the community. To stay grounded on that half i like to watch causal smash streams when new characters come out. Maximillian stream when hero came out was absolutely hilarious. Hero was designed to be a casual good time. When people find out what down b does the first time its pure gaming nintnedo only magic. they laugh, everyone esle screams, and its fun. games should be fun.

i think sakurai has had a shift in design principles since 4. In smash 4 all the new dlc was designed to be strong 1v1 characters. but every DLC except cloud was a mediocre ffa or items on character. this lead to many of my casual friends not buying the dlc.
with smash ultimate, all of the DLC except one (banjo) have had major successes among my local friends and the streams i watch.

this thread is so funny. the KOS-MOS nightmare debate was so funny. And theres always someone insisting character x isnt that popular. and they are almost always wrong.

 

[Droodle]

That feeling when Sakurai bias is in dull effect but you don't care because Sakurai ended up having the same interests as you and that means your guy gets special treatment.

Judging by his sense of humor in things like Kid Icarus: Uprising; I feel like Sakurai and I would get along just fine.

One reason why I think we may end up getting Kiryu in Smash eventually is just because of how similar Yakuza's sense of humor seems to Sakurai's.

 

[Gentlepanda]

Tfw you get your most wanted regardless of Sakurai bias and they're dope anyways.

tfw joker gets in and you love persona so you hope he'll be decent then sakurai makes him the best character in the game

 

[Deleted member]

tfw joker gets in and you love persona so you hope he'll be decent then sakurai makes him the best character in the game

Tfw when you don't really care about Persona 5 but Sakurai added Persona 3 and 4 elements to Mementos so you get hyped anyways.