Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[RouffWestie]

You think Sakurai bias is bad now, wait till you see the VGA trailer where Joker shows up again and throws an invitation to someone else.

 

[Gentlepanda]

You think Sakurai bias is bad now, wait till you see the VGA trailer where Joker shows up again and throws an invitation to someone else.

yodasumi win

 

[Deleted member]

You think Sakurai bias is bad now, wait till you see the VGA trailer where Joker shows up again and throws an invitation to someone else.

Gentlepanda is typing

yodasumi win

View attachment 248936

He typed...

 

[BlackInk]

i feel like people mad about movesets are people that are so focused on the competitive lense they fail to see the rest of the community. To stay grounded on that half i like to watch causal smash streams when new characters come out. Maximillian stream when hero came out was absolutely hilarious. Hero was designed to be a casual good time. When people find out what down b does the first time its pure gaming nintnedo only magic. they laugh, everyone esle screams, and its fun. games should be fun.

i think sakurai has had a shift in design principles since 4. In smash 4 all the new dlc was designed to be strong 1v1 characters. but every DLC except cloud was a medicore ffa or items on character. this lead to many of my casual friends not buying the dlc.
with smash ultimate all of the DLC except one (banjo) have had major successes among my local firneds and the streams i watch.

this thread is so funny. the KOS-MOS nightmare debate was so funny. And theres always someone insisting character x isnt that popular. and they are almost always wrong.

I just think Hero and Banjo could’ve been executed way better than what we had. Sure the way I thought Hero should’ve been designed sounded boring, but they had the intentions of making Hero fun while reasonable. Banjo’s gimmick was legitimately awful, it felt like Sakurai was done with working on him since the rough draft of the character design.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

yodasumi win

View attachment 248936

What

 

[MooMew64]

This thread really likes to go in hard with the armchair developer gimmick, huh?

 

[Gentlepanda]

What

you heard me

 

[MooMew64]

What

Yodasumi always win, from what I've been told.

 

[Gentlepanda]

Yodasumi always win, from what I've been told.

consider that after 3 weeks, vergeben has still not been able to deconfirm yodasumi

invincible

 

[RouffWestie]

I just think Hero and Banjo could’ve been executed way better than what we had. Sure the way I thought Hero should’ve been designed sounded boring, but they had the intentions of making Hero fun while reasonable. Banjo’s gimmick was legitimately awful, it felt like Sakurai was done with working on him since the rough draft of the character design.

A lot of us don’t like the way certain characters were implemented, but blaming it on “Sakurai bias” isn’t a very sound argument tbh.

 

[MooMew64]

consider that after 3 weeks, vergeben has still not been able to deconfirm yodasumi

invincible

Still gotta contend with heavy hitters like Gooigi, though.

Their battle will be legendary!

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I just think Hero and Banjo could’ve been executed way better than what we had. Sure the way I thought Hero should’ve been designed sounded boring, but they had the intentions of making Hero fun while reasonable. Banjo’s gimmick was legitimately awful, it felt like Sakurai was done with working on him since the rough draft of the character design.

I mean, Wonder Wing is legitimately one of the best tools in the game if you use it correctly, so I don't really see your point. It's only legitimately awful is you just blow all 5 wings with little regard to what you're doing.

 

[Deleted member]

I just think Hero and Banjo could’ve been executed way better than what we had. Sure the way I thought Hero should’ve been designed sounded boring, but they had the intentions of making Hero fun while reasonable. Banjo’s gimmick was legitimately awful, it felt like Sakurai was done with working on him since the rough draft of the character design.

One of the praises you see for Banjo most often is how simple is gimmick is. His simplicity, sans Wonderwing and maybe Breegul Blaster, makes him feel like he wouldn't have been out of place in Melee, which is fitting for a character that belonged to Nintendo to start with.
I can get down with a Hero clown fiesta or Terry playing like a traditional FG character but not every character needs have to have an elaborate gimmick to have them constitute as "well-designed".

 

[Captain Fun]

I just think Hero and Banjo could’ve been executed way better than what we had. Sure the way I thought Hero should’ve been designed sounded boring, but they had the intentions of making Hero fun while reasonable. Banjo’s gimmick was legitimately awful, it felt like Sakurai was done with working on him since the rough draft of the character design.

If you don't like how a character turned out, that's fair. If you don't like RNG and think it's inherently bad for a fighting game, then that's a fair opinion, even if I disagree.

But if you're gonna say that Banjo and Hero are underwhelming because of a lack of passion on Sakurai's part, you're probably projecting a bit too much. There's so much fan service packed into both of them.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Honestly I like playing Banjo and Kazooie as they've only got one major gimmick that affects a single move. The gimmicks are all well and good for making characters different but they make the characters more of a bother to learn. Banjo fits in much better with the existing cast and is fun to play as without having to learn "real" fighting game controls or how to select from a menu under time and resource pressure.

 

[Deleted member]

I just think Hero and Banjo could’ve been executed way better than what we had. Sure the way I thought Hero should’ve been designed sounded boring, but they had the intentions of making Hero fun while reasonable. Banjo’s gimmick was legitimately awful, it felt like Sakurai was done with working on him since the rough draft of the character design.

So Joker and Terry have too much content, Hero is too faithful and is too gimmicky, and Banjo & Kazooie are too faithful and not gimmicky enough. Are you just complaining for the sake of it now?

 

[BlackInk]

Yodasumi always win, from what I've been told.

A lot of us don’t like the way certain characters were implemented, but blaming it on “Sakurai bias” isn’t a very sound argument tbh.

He does a lot of extreme stuff with Terry and Joker and it feels like he rushes through fighter #2 and #3. He plays Terry’s classic mode from start to finish for the guy’s video. He does interviews about Joker in Atlus’s building, with the Morgana guy around to pass him gifts.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Also, the fact these characters even exist in Smash in the first place should be all the passion anybody needs to see. Licensing agreements aren't necessarily super easy to work out and only come about from years of cooperation on the parts of companies, so the fact that Hero and Banjo & Kazooie are in the game at all are nothing short of amazing. Furthermore, these characters take 6+ months to develop, so that's 6+ months of straight love and passion being injected into the character.

Hell, just watch the presentations for Hero and Banjo & Kazooie with how much Sakurai talks lovingly about how he has worked to realize them and tell me he doesn't put loads of passion in.

He does a lot of extreme stuff with Terry and Joker and it feels like he rushes through fighter #2 and #3. He plays Terry’s classic mode from start to finish for guy’s video. He does interviews about Joker in Atlus’s building, with the Morgana guy around to pass him gifts.

The man appeared on stage for a Dragon Quest event and gushed about it for several minutes as he described the process. What the hell is your point?

 

[Deleted member]

consider that after 3 weeks, vergeben has still not been able to deconfirm yodasumi

invincible

I demand pics of the Yodasumi mii costume on my desk by 8 PM, Panda.

 

[MooMew64]

He does a lot of extreme stuff with Terry and Joker and it feels like he rushes through fighter #2 and #3. He plays Terry’s classic mode from start to finish for the guy’s video. He does interviews about Joker in Atlus’s building, with the Morgana guy around to pass him gifts.

Probably because the guy was having fun and was also trying to make it fun for fans of the franchise.

Heaven forbid a man like something and have fun.

 

[Wunderwaft]

rathalos is the most iconic 'character' in monster hunter, and the one featured in smash, so it gets a spirit - it's just an odd case where the 'playable' character, i.e. the hunter, isn't the go-to iconic crossover character

it's not that strange imo

But the spirit is simply reflective of the material from the series they chose to represent. If they strove for playability, the hunter would be the way to go, but choosing a monster instead (the most recognizable and well-known monster from the series) is not an unfaithful representation either.

Given the choice they went with isn't strange, and that series in similar situations were only represented by the included character, it's not an outcome so abnormal that theory-crafting is really warranted.

Yeah they didn't give the hunter a spirit, but some people don't see the hunter as the draw/focus of the series. It's not always about playability.

I understand the point that both of you are saying and I agree somewhat to a degree. But the matter of fact still remains that if a playable rep for Monster Hunter gets in then it would be the Hunter. The Hunter is not represented in Smash which leaves open the possibility of the character getting added as DLC. I'm not trying to create a conspiracy over this lack of MH content, I'm saying that because Hunter is the go-to playable rep for the series and they are not represented in Smash it means there is a possibility they could be added as DLC. I'm not hinging on this possibility but it's still something to consider. I guess all what I'm trying to say is Monster Hunter isn't disconfirmed until proven otherwise.

 

[Curious Villager]

>People complain about their favourite characters not getting in
>Once their in, they start complaining that they didn't get pampered as much as certain other characters did.

Spoiler

At least their... y'know, in...

 

[Hadokeyblade]

He does a lot of extreme stuff with Terry and Joker and it feels like he rushes through fighter #2 and #3. He plays Terry’s classic mode from start to finish for the guy’s video. He does interviews about Joker in Atlus’s building, with the Morgana guy around to pass him gifts.

That's because he's an old man who wanted to show the kids of today the thing he loved when he was younger.

 

[BlackInk]

Also, the fact these characters even exist in Smash in the first place should be all the passion anybody needs to see. Licensing agreements aren't necessarily super easy to work out and only come about from years of cooperation on the parts of companies, so the fact that Hero and Banjo & Kazooie are in the game at all are nothing short of amazing. Furthermore, these characters take 6+ months to develop, so that's 6+ months of straight love and passion being injected into the character.

Hell, just watch the presentations for Hero and Banjo & Kazooie with how much Sakurai talks lovingly about how he has worked to realize them and tell me he doesn't put loads of passion in.

Hero and Banjo feel like the result of some messy business stuff. The rng elements and moves were too ridiculous for Hero. Banjo is messy with his character design, kinda unfocused. There might be love for these characters, it just doesn’t feel like Sakurai has enough control over them. Sakurai bias may depend on his bias in a character and the company’s bias for or against him.

That's because he's an old man who wanted to show the kids of today the thing he loved when he was younger.

Like Joker? The character who totally came out in the 80s.

 

[MooMew64]

>People complain about their favourite characters not getting in
>Once their in, they start complaining that they didn't get pampered as much as certain other characters did.



At least their... y'know, in...

B-but my character should have 5 stages, 100 music tracks with 50 being remixes, and a gold-plated statue that tells everyone that they're the best and everyone else is bad!

And I'll still complain because I'm not happy unless I'm complaining! It's the internet, if I'm not here to complain, what am I here for?

 

[Deleted member]

Omg someone just @ me when FP 5 gets cancelled and we just get Piranha Plant in Space

 

[Lady Kuki]

I like the DLC so far. I do wish certain chars were in, but what can I do you know.

I always wanted Persona content in Smash, and while I prefer 4 over 5, Joker is cool on his own right. Not too interested in Banjo, but he’s also fine. I LOVE Hero for the most part, but as a more tryhard player I don’t have as much fun using him in 1v1s... and I’m happy about Terry’s presence in the game, because I just like seeing more fighting game guests. It’s a cool gesture imo.

 

[ProfPeanut]

Banjo and Hero got enough representation to suffice them both - a full moveset, some ported mechanics, a stage woth music, and a good smattering of references. There's no use grumbling that some other franchises scooped more onto their plate - a franchise can always get more representation in Smash than it has, and fans are poor at setting sensible standards of what "enough" is.

It might upset people that Sakurai brings out more from some franchises than others, but there's no one else out there whoeven has as high of a default representation standard as Sakurai does. We've got more than enough horrifying examples of people having to cross-over things they obviously don't care about.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Hero and Banjo feel like the result of some messy business stuff. The rng elements and moves were too ridiculous for Hero. Banjo is messy with his character design, kinda unfocused. There might be love for these characters, it just doesn’t feel like Sakurai has enough control over them. Sakurai bias may depend on his bias in a character and the company’s bias for or against him.

Like Joker? The character who totally came out in the 80s.

Well he's from the 90's but...

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Honestly, the only part of the DLC Fighters that's lacklustre is that the Dragon Quest composer refuses to let games have orchestrated soundtracks as he thinks that'll make people stop coming to his live shows.

This is your brain on digital piracy fears.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

From what I’ve been told, the Monster Hunter team isn’t a huge fan of taking the focus on MH and placing it on the Hunter and away from the monsters. That could very reasonably be why we haven’t gotten a playable hunter yet.

In addition, Monster Hunter has already “crossed over” into Smash Ultimate, whereas all the other series were completely new. It’d be a little weird to me if we get 4 new series, and then the last one is just, “look at this character who isn’t entirely new!”

Not to say it can’t happen. Stranger things have. I have a few friends who would absolutely love a Monster Hunter in Smash.

 

[BlackInk]

Banjo and Hero got enough representation to suffice them both - a full moveset, some ported mechanics, a stage woth music, and a good smattering of references. There's no use grumbling that some other franchises scooped more onto their plate - a franchise can always get more representation in Smash than it has, and fans are poor at setting sensible standards of what "enough" is.

It might upset people that Sakurai brings out more from some franchises than others, but there's no one else out there whoeven has as high of a default representation standard as Sakurai does. We've got more than enough horrifying examples of people having to cross-over things they obviously don't care about.

Satisfying me is pretty simple, just make the character good with a decently made character design. Fans get way more greedy and lose a big picture of the case.

 

[Lady Kuki]

Well he's from the 90's but...

View attachment 248940

*gasp* Someone who remembers Persona 2!

 

[ArchRanger]

I just think Hero and Banjo could’ve been executed way better than what we had. Sure the way I thought Hero should’ve been designed sounded boring, but they had the intentions of making Hero fun while reasonable. Banjo’s gimmick was legitimately awful, it felt like Sakurai was done with working on him since the rough draft of the character design.

Well as some (apparently) hardcore B&K fan that breaks games down by their technical attributes.. why don’t you provide some insight on what you would do instead of trashing the character with low effort insults like rough drafts and inferior to Joker/Terry? B&K don’t really have a gimmick outside of wonderwing and most people were happy with that due to Joker and Hero having a gimmick their kit depends on. This include old school fans like myself too so instead of complaining, arm chair develop a kit that would better suit the character in your eyes since you seem to know better than Sakurai and the fans.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Let me preface this that Phoenix Wright is 2nd most wanted character and I have no intention of downplaying his legacy, but I don’t see why Phoenix is considered by the wider speculation community a front runner while Professor Layton is not.

Both series have similar qualities and history of being 3rd party champions of Nintendo’s portable consoles, but the Layton series is actually bigger than the Ace Attorney series. To but it into perspective, Professor Layton has sold 17 million while Ace Attorney has sold 7 million, there’s a reason why in their crossover game Professor Layton’s name comes first. Not saying sales are the end all, but it seems odd to me that the Layton series is not considered on the same level as Ace Attorney.

I’ll chalk it up to more people who speculate being unfamiliar with Layton due to his games being more casual.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Hero and Banjo feel like the result of some messy business stuff. The rng elements and moves were too ridiculous for Hero. Banjo is messy with his character design, kinda unfocused. There might be love for these characters, it just doesn’t feel like Sakurai has enough control over them. Sakurai bias may depend on his bias in a character and the company’s bias for or against him.

Just watch these for crying out loud. First you have Hero, a character that has literally never been allowed to casually exist in a crossover, let alone with as many different alts as he has (that Square Enix specifically suggested mind you showing their willingness to work with Sakurai) and the first time these characters have been voiced in a video game. Did I also mention that Dragon Quest has the most Spirits of any DLC thus far too?:

And then there is Banjo & Kazooie, who Sakurai said was super easy to get through Microsoft's willingness to work with him, revived him for the first time in a decade despite numerous more popular characters that exist from Microsoft, and got 7 remixes of the 10 songs with Sakurai going out of his way to get original composer Grant Kirkhope to do a remix for Smash:

Seriously, what is your point? Because your reasoning doesn't add up the way you think it does.

 

[ZoroCarlos]

You think Sakurai bias is bad now, wait till you see the VGA trailer where Joker shows up again and throws an invitation to someone else.

You know what, now I really want a trailer where fighter #5 is the victim of Joker's invitation theft and he steals his letter back.

Sounds like a perfect setup for the Phoenix trailer

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Let me preface this that Phoenix Wright is 2nd most wanted character and I have no intention of downplaying his legacy, but I don’t see why Phoenix is considered by the wider speculation community a front runner while Professor Layton is not.

Both series have similar qualities and history of being 3rd party champions of Nintendo’s portable consoles, but the Layton series is actually bigger than the Ace Attorney series. To but it into perspective, Professor Layton has sold 17 million while Ace Attorney has sold 7 million, there’s a reason why in their crossover game Professor Layton’s name comes first. Not saying sales are the end all, but it seems odd to me that the Layton series is not considered on the same level as Ace Attorney.

I’ll chalk it up to more people who speculate being unfamiliar with Layton due to his games being more casual.

It not that surprising that neither of them are in smash, there's a distinct lack of games from the 2000's in the game, most of the roster is from 80's, 90's and 2010's.

 

[BlackInk]

Well as some (apparently) hardcore B&K fan that breaks games down by their technical attributes.. why don’t you provide some insight on what you would do instead of trashing the character with low effort insults like rough drafts and inferior to Joker/Terry? B&K don’t really have a gimmick outside of wonderwing and most people were happy with that due to Joker and Hero having a gimmick their kit depends on. This include old school fans like myself too so instead of complaining, arm chair develop a kit that would better suit the character in your eyes since you seem to know better than Sakurai and the fans.

Ironically, Joker works pretty well without his Gimmick, hero is just badly designed. From understanding Banjo, he is a character who barley has throw combos, he has flexible air mobility (cause of three jumps), and also has a campy playstyke from the bombs.

 

[Dukemon102]

Let me preface this that Phoenix Wright is 2nd most wanted character and I have no intention of downplaying his legacy, but I don’t see why Phoenix is considered by the wider speculation community a front runner while Professor Layton is not.

Both series have similar qualities and history of being 3rd party champions of Nintendo’s portable consoles, but the Layton series is actually bigger than the Ace Attorney series. To but it into perspective, Professor Layton has sold 17 million while Ace Attorney has sold 7 million, there’s a reason why in their crossover game Professor Layton’s name comes first. Not saying sales are the end all, but it seems odd to me that the Layton series is not considered on the same level as Ace Attorney.

I’ll chalk it up to more people who speculate being unfamiliar with Layton due to his games being more casual.

I guess it has to do with UMvC3 taking Wright and showing the world how fun of a fighter he can be. We know he has good moveset potential and he would hilarously Object characters into the blastzone.

Layton's moveset is a wildcard. He solves puzzles, knows esgrima and so on.... doesn't sound too appealing unless you show it in action like Capcom did with Nick.