Newbie Mafia 6 - OVER! Who lived happily ever after in Newbie Land?!

[#HBC | Ryker]

You say you aren't tunnelling, yet you completely disregard or try to smack down any reasons I give for pretty much anything I do. You refer to me as scum all the time, and McFox as my scum buddy. In day 1, merely hours in you post as if you are convinced of my alignment and attempt to get everyone voting for me. Please, explain how this is open minded, logical play well suited to helping out the town. You could have questioned many people, and waited for someone to make a mistake or say something stupid, but instead you concentrate your efforts and attempt to distort the entire thread toward me. This means any scum (maybe in the what, 5/6 people? yet to talk much) can easily sit back and stay safe.

What is stopping you from responding to me and interacting with other people? If you want to call me for tunneling, you're being rather hypocritical. If you want my vote off of you and McFox, find somewhere else for it to go. Also, forgive me if I'm wrong, but am I not supposed to respond to a counter-point if I think it's wrong? It's not my fault if other people won't speak up against others. I've found the best lead I can and I'm sticking to my guns until I'm given a better option.

You are GIVING the scum the perfect RVS; narrow, confined to a few people and fuelled by suspicion as opposed to information (don't try and pretend your case against me is anything other than a farce).

This isn't RVS. We've been out of it for quite awhile now. Nice try though. Please don't try and redirect this back to RVS.

What you have done is beneficial to the mafia, please explain how you are helping town by helping the mafia.

Your words, not mine. I'm helping the town by taking stances and forcing others to.

The closest anyone has come to saying they agree with you is


If you take that as an 'agreement' you are more fanatical than I thought.

And if you think everyone else disagrees with me before they've posted as such, you're a moron.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ninja'd. Let me address this.

I can tell that your points have more merit than mine through your continued use of asterisks. Everyone knows that in a debate, the guy who curses the most is clearly winning.

And the guy who argues sarcastically about the way I talk is helping how?

This isn't even close to what you quoted me as saying was referring to. It's like you just picked a random sentence that I posted and then went off on a tangent about defending Swiss (again).

You're attempting to use the fact that you say my case is "weaksauce" as an attempt to justify answering it before your scummate.

McFox, do you think it is protown to respond to something that is obviously not targeted at you before the original target? I don't care if you go into some shades of gray bull**** as long as you give me a straight up yes or no answer first.

 

[Swiss]

This isn't RVS. We've been out of it for quite awhile now. Nice try though. Please don't try and redirect this back to RVS.

Ok, you've given the scum the perfect start do day 1 then. Same point, I just happened to not use the right time frame term.

And if you think everyone else disagrees with me before they've posted as such, you're a moron.

Where did I say that? Nowhere.

You however, said people agree with you. I merely pointed out that the closest to an 'agreement' that has actually been said to your posts was not an agreement.

 

[McFox]

McFox, [here's a corner, please allow me to paint you into it!]

That is what you said, right? Any strategy can be employed for good or bad uses. Just like any strategy can be misinterpreted by anyone who doesn't get it.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

That is what you said, right? Any strategy can be employed for good or bad uses. Just like any strategy can be misinterpreted by anyone who doesn't get it.

How am I backing you into a corner? I'm asking you about a game mechanic that is being employed. If you have acted in a scummy fashion it is your own fault.

Ok, you've given the scum the perfect start do day 1 then. Same point, I just happened to not use the right time frame term.

And I disagree.

Where did I say that? Nowhere.

You however, said people agree with you. I merely pointed out that the closest to an 'agreement' that has actually been said to your posts was not an agreement.

Seems to me that it is to some degree. Also, you asked me why I continued when "everyone else disagrees with me." That's where you said it.

 

[Xiivi]

Deadline has been set for April 19th, 2010 11:59AM EST.

It's takes 7/12 to lynch!

Day 1 Vote Count 2:​

hidajiremi: Sworddancer. (

)
Kataefi: (0)
McFox: Swiss, xxFrohawkxx, Ryker (

)
RocketPSIence: (0)
Ryker: vanderzant, McFox, hidajiremi (

)
Swiss: The_Guide, RocketPSIence (

)
Sworddancer.: (0)
SwordsRbroken: (0)
The_Guide: (0)
vanderzant: (0)
VitaminC: (0)
xxFrohawkxx: (0)
Not Voting: Kataefi, SwordsRbroken, VitaminC (

)

VitaminC has been prodded.

 

[vanderzant]

I didn't laugh, therefore they're obviously not joke votes.

So because they aren't "funny" to you, that makes them super serious votes. Nice logic.

There are 4 people who disagree with me and, IIRC, 2 who agree with me. And a couple who haven't posted opinions. Don't play that game.

At least get your facts straight if you want to play the number game.

Derp derp derp. If they're so obvious, what is to inhibit Swiss?

Not sure what you're trying to say by this. I never said the flaws in your case were obvious, and I never said Swiss can't defend himself. You're assuming that.

 

[McFox]

How am I backing you into a corner? I'm asking you about a game mechanic that is being employed. If you have acted in a scummy fashion it is your own fault.

Because your insinuation is that a course of action can be 100% of the time scummy, or 100% of the time townie, which is absolutely not true. It all depends on context, which right now you do not have, since I haven't given it to you.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ryker, you've squeezed all the info you need out of McFox right now. It's going too far that town can't do anything.

Unvote; Vote: Ryker

He's not helping town at all. I only voted with him because I thought it would help town get out of RVS, but now he's gone monstrous and closed minded.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

PRO-TIP FOR EVERYONE

When someone makes a case or asks a question targeting one person in particular, let said person answer for themselves. Otherwise, you may very well be allowing scum to hide behind your answers.

I'm definitly going to have to agree with this. I don't like it when other players retrot accustions that were aimmed at other players. It does look scummy, and it doesn't really help pressure anyone.

That said, I do think that Swiss has been defending himself quite alright.

Now Ryker, something that bothered me is this:

Unvote

Vote: McFox

Swiss can follow him since he seems intent on getting himself lynched. The order in which you lynch scum in this game really doesn't matter.

So you want McFox lynched first? I don't think that is a good idea at all. If you really think that Swiss and Mcfox are scum buddies, then why not try to get a lynch on Swiss first? If Swiss turns up to be scum, then we would have a good lead on Mcfox. Mislynching an IC would be a major set back for the town, whereas mislynching a newbie would still be bad, but not as bad. I just have to think that one reason you could be doing this is because you want to get rid of one of your biggest threats early.

What I'm basically trying to say is that I do think the order in which you try to lynch scum suspects does matter, and it makes me rise an eyebrow at you that you would first want to lynch an IC, one of the town's most powerful playerts.

Unvote Vote Ryker

I can't really put you at fault for making cases against people. It's the fact that you made a case against someone, and then tried to link them togather with a more experianced player and get that player lynched first that bugs me.

 

[vanderzant]

To be honest, we all need to remember that it is still early on day 1, and that most things said are based on fluff. Ryker's case is based on fluff, and that is why he has about 5 votes on him. He doesn't look
like he is going to listen to reason anytime soon, so I think we should start trying to pursue the lurkers in the thread. Someone above mentioned that mislynching an Ic on day 1 is a horrible position for the town to be in. The same thing applies just as much for Ryker as it does for McFox.

 

[vanderzant]

I'd much rather do a blind lynch on someone who isn't contributing to the discussion, especially when we aren't particularly certain of anything.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Right now, i'd like the newbies to give their 5 cents on who they think is scum.

The votes on ryker are unnecessary right now. Whilst i agree that his tunneling has gotten out of hand, is it really necessary to put him at L-2 with little discussion? FoS: rPSI, Dancer You didn't really say anything new. You both just put him at L-2, making it easy for scum to quicklynch. I suggest you do not put someone at L-2 this early in the game.

Mislynching an IC would be a major set back for the town, whereas mislynching a newbie would still be bad, but not as bad.

I disagree. If you had an experienced person who is useless (like handorin) vs an inexperienced newbie that is helpful, i would go with the newbie. It is true in some cases however.

 

[vanderzant]

I'm also suggesting that Ryker has been way more useful than some newbies/lurkers/people that haven't contributed much (read: anything). So my point still stands.

I've already spoken my mind on both McFox, Ryker and Swiss. I believe those who haven't should do the same.

 

[vanderzant]

Additionally, SwordsRBroken I would like you to place a vote to back up your claims, or explain why you haven't thus far. Votes mean a lot more than an FOS or whatever that is.

 

[hidajiremi]

I'm also suggesting that Ryker has been way more useful than some newbies/lurkers/people that haven't contributed much (read: anything).

I strongly disagree about Ryker's usefulness. He's abrasive and rude, and making long posts doesn't make up for that. Also, criticizing people in a newbie game for being slow to contribute doesn't make them more likely to contribute--it makes them less so. I know that for myself, I hate being told that I'm "not doing enough," especially since I can only post on these forums at certain times of the day (whether because the forums go down a lot or because of my schedule).

Still, my vote against Ryker stands. I feel confident in it, and your defense of him only makes me more suspicious of you, not less so of him.


Hida Jiremi

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I strongly disagree about Ryker's usefulness. He's abrasive and rude, and making long posts doesn't make up for that. Also, criticizing people in a newbie game for being slow to contribute doesn't make them more likely to contribute--it makes them less so. I know that for myself, I hate being told that I'm "not doing enough," especially since I can only post on these forums at certain times of the day (whether because the forums go down a lot or because of my schedule).

Since when did abrasive and rude = scummy?

1.) I'm not criticizing any newbies for being slow. I've said previously that I want to give people time before we start sniffing around for inactives.

2.) Criticism is what leads to improvement, so I don't see what's wrong with criticism.

How am I being scummy? Your post leads me to believe you want me to be gone for being mean. That's not a scumtell. If you want to vote for me, then explain why?

I'll get at other things. I just hit refresh and read through. I'm playing League of Legends at the moment.

 

[vanderzant]

I strongly disagree about Ryker's usefulness. He's abrasive and rude, and making long posts doesn't make up for that. Also, criticizing people in a newbie game for being slow to contribute doesn't make them more likely to contribute--it makes them less so. I know that for myself, I hate being told that I'm "not doing enough," especially since I can only post on these forums at certain times of the day (whether because the forums go down a lot or because of my schedule).

I can see where you're coming from, but you're probably not going to learn that much if you (not just you in particular) are afraid to speak your mind. I also can't see how someone asking for your opinion is discouraging.

No one should feel the pressure for not contributing enough yet, we still have a week left.

Still, my vote against Ryker stands. I feel confident in it, and your defense of him only makes me more suspicious of you, not less so of him.

As does my own vote. I'm not actually defending Ryker. I am just warning people that we should chill a bit more with going around in a circle argument and let others post their opinions. Again, we have a week left.

 

[Swiss]

Ok, first of all

Unvote (My RVS vote)


Ryker, what's your opinion on all these votes on you. Do you agree that you must have played scummy to get 5 votes? As someone said, making fervent accusations based on 'fluff' isn't a great idea.

If you have acted in a scummy fashion it is your own fault.

Food for thought.




Can I suggest the next poster unvotes off Ryker. Even if you think he's scum, we have days left.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Bah. Fine, I'll unvote for now. When I voted Ryker it was to add pressure to him, I didn't intend to get him lynched. Also, can someone please tell me how dangerous it really is to have someone on L-2? I mean, what are the chances that two people are all of the sudden just going to jump on Ryker? I would think that that would make them look incredible bad the following Day.

I'll at the very least FoS Ryker.

I have to get ready for school right now. I'll answer broken's question when I get back from school today.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Additionally, SwordsRBroken I would like you to place a vote to back up your claims, or explain why you haven't thus far. Votes mean a lot more than an FOS or whatever that is.

FoS means Finger of Suspicion. It's a tool used to be suspicious of someone. It usually means that what he/she did isn't enough for a vote. Also, i don't see anything yet that merits a vote.

@Dancer it's really easy for someone to get quicklynched by accident when it is L-2. It may be that a dumb townie puts him at L-1 afterwards, thinking it was L-2 or something, making it easy for scum to end the day quickly. I'm saying that someone should NOT be put at L-2 this early.

Still, my vote against Ryker stands. I feel confident in it, and your(vanderzant) defense of him only makes me more suspicious of you, not less so of him.

Explain why vanderzant's "defense" of ryker makes you more suspicious. Just because someone defends someone else does not mean they are both scum! They could both be town or one town or one scum, whatever. Still want you to reply to that question though.

And would people please stop tunneling on ryker? I myself don't think he is scum. I see some merit in his case, but a good bit of it is grasping at straws. I'm not going to place a vote on him unless he does something scummy IMO. I think ryker is aggressive town. Could be wrong though.

Still waiting for some of you to reply to my previous question.

Mcfox, who is scum?

 

[McFox]

Did not like this post at all. dancer says that stepping in for someone else is inherently scummy, and then goes on to talk about what a great player I am.

Unvote

Vote: Sworddancer

Although for the record, constantly updating the game with what you're doing in RL when it has nothing to do with being V/LA ("I have yard work to do," "I'm playing League of Legends") has always struck me as scummy in its own way. It says to me that you're worried that people will think you aren't constantly checking the thread, which townies don't really have a reason to be worried about unless they are at L-1.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ryker, what's your opinion on all these votes on you. Do you agree that you must have played scummy to get 5 votes? As someone said, making fervent accusations based on 'fluff' isn't a great idea.

Nope. It seems to me that you and McFox are about the only people who can give a valid reason for voting me. It seems everyone else wants to vote me for, "Being mean."

Although for the record, constantly updating the game with what you're doing in RL when it has nothing to do with being V/LA ("I have yard work to do," "I'm playing League of Legends") has always struck me as scummy in its own way. It says to me that you're worried that people will think you aren't constantly checking the thread, which townies don't really have a reason to be worried about unless they are at L-1.

Why? I've always done it and will continue to do it. People were telling me to share what I was talking about and I couldn't the first time. The second time, a bunch of people had posted and I only responded to the most recent one. Kinda like this, but I'll be back later. I've got class.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I think ryker is aggressive town. Could be wrong though.

FoS: SwordsRbroken
He made a classic "could be wrong though" in case Ryker does end up mafia. He should not be shaky on his decisions.

 

[Kataefi]

502 **** happening right now so this better go through:

@ryker- looking alright to me but I am still heavily unconvinced by the case against swiss - i'm unsure on mcfox in general - how would you react if they flip the opposite to what you're dictating them to be?

@Vanz (because it's quicker to type =p) - You've done a 360 on Mcfox, what was about his justification and the way he's responding to ryker now that makes you think he's not the play today? how is he playing differently from when you first 'suspected' him? Also who else you finding suspicious?

@Swiss: thoughts on ryker and mcfox? don't think you've had a chance to breathe this game so is there anyone in particular you're finding a little off?

@Dancer - something to point out with these particular posts:

#99

There are a few cloudy stances here - Note these lines:

So, anyways, I'm really starting to kinda take McFox's side of this

Now, Mcfox, something does bother me about you... Just about a month ago you seemed to be singing a whole different tone. Now in that game you were town. I wonder if maybe the reason that you're acting differently is because you are on a different side this game?

can you elaborate on why you're taking Mcfox's side, yet you're finding his play this game possibly suspicious?

Also let's look at #130 Specifically these quotes:

I'm definitly going to have to agree with this. I don't like it when other players retrot accustions that were aimmed at other players. It does look scummy, and it doesn't really help pressure anyone.

That said, I do think that Swiss has been defending himself quite alright.

So you want McFox lynched first? I don't think that is a good idea at all. If you really think that Swiss and Mcfox are scum buddies, then why not try to get a lynch on Swiss first?

I find #99 and #130 connecting. There is this circular logic that looks contradictory to me:

Dancer's take on Mcfox:

1. I'm taking Mcfox's side
2. Mcfox has defended Swiss, which I definitely agree looks scummy
3. I think lynching Mcfox is a bad idea

Dancer's take on Swiss:

1. I think Swiss has been defending himself quite alright
2. It would be better to get him lynched over Mcfox

Can you see where your thoughts are looping? Sometimes stances like these are called wishy washy, cloudy, foggy, any word that alludes to these thoughts being unclear.

with that said could you give an elaboration on how you're currently viewing these 2 players? and if Swiss' defences are 'quite alright', what do you make of Ryker pursuing Swiss in the manner that he did?

 

[Kataefi]

me and my colourful posts =D

 

[SwordsRbroken]

FoS: SwordsRbroken
He made a classic "could be wrong though" in case Ryker does end up mafia. He should not be shaky on his decisions.

So, where is the answer to my questions? Who is scum?

Vote:rPSI for ignoring my questions and nitpicking.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

@ryker- looking alright to me but I am still heavily unconvinced by the case against swiss - i'm unsure on mcfox in general - how would you react if they flip the opposite to what you're dictating them to be?

Swiss? Not surprised at all seeing as I was making up **** so that we had something to go on. I had zero intention of lynching Swiss, although when McFox flips scum I may come back to him.

McFox? Pissed as hell because he's playing like scum.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

EBWOP:

Does that make my actions look any clearer?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So, where is the answer to my questions? Who is scum?

Vote:rPSI for ignoring my questions and nitpicking.

My FOS and my vote make who I think is suspicious quite clear.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

What was your vote on ryker for rPSI? What do you think of McFox? What do you think of Swiss?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ryker was severly limiting the toDay's conversation by posting a fluff argument with McFox. McFox obviously is trying to be a good IC and give Swiss right to remain silent and acted sort of like his attorney. However, this could also be classic buddying, but I'm not quite sure if it's truly scummy.

 

[Swiss]

@Swiss: thoughts on ryker and mcfox? don't think you've had a chance to breathe this game so is there anyone in particular you're finding a little off?

Ryker - I think he went too hard, too fast, too illogically. He made contradictory/incorrect posts but he did it so much, that I'm finding it hard to believe a scum doing something this blatant, it's the same as standing up with an air horn and a sign saying 'SCUM'. Having said that, I wonder what kind of townie would do that. Lucky I refreshed, just seen Ryker's newest post, more understandable.

I think ryker is aggressive town.

I think this post has merit.

McFox - His vote on Swords due to a post in which he voted for Ryker who McFox had also voted for seems bizarre. Unless this was the 'buddying' insinuated, I'm struggling to understand it. I don't think the majority of his posts have been scummy.


@Ryker, can you explain in one clear post, how McFox has been scummy? What do you think of Swords and Dancer?

@McFox, can you explain why you voted for Swords, I don't see the actual evidence in your evidence, as it were.


Swords, what do you think of the players? I haven't seen your opinions yet (save Ryker is aggressive town), only your questions. Who is scum?

 

[SwordsRbroken]

I'm still waiting for SwordDancer to reply to my questions.

@swiss, here is my primary suspicion.

However, this could also be classic buddying, but I'm not quite sure if it's truly scummy.

YOU CALLED ME OUT ON THE EXACT SAME THING! YOU'RE NOT QUITE SURE? THIS COULD ALSO BE CLASSIC BUDDYING? You are saying this so you can change your mind later without having suspicion cast upon you. Yet you called me out on the EXACT SAME THING.

Also, rPSI has yet to contribute anything. He has only posted to answer questions and vote.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

So, in other words, rPSI is my primary suspicion. Dancer may be later depending on how he answers my questions.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

However, this could also be classic buddying, but I'm not quite sure if it's truly scummy.

Emphasized so you can see it better.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

My motive was just trying to generate conversation other than Ryker's fluff war.

In fact, I'm fine with your vote one me, it's showing me that your trying to be pro-town. I didn't really see that in you before.

 

[Xiivi]

Deadline has been set for April 19th, 2010 11:59AM EST.

It's takes 7/12 to lynch!

Day 1 Vote Count 3:​

hidajiremi: (0)
Kataefi: (0)
McFox: xxFrohawkxx, Ryker (

)
RocketPSIence: SwordsRbroken (

)
Ryker: vanderzant, hidajiremi, RocketPSIence (

)
Swiss: The_Guide (

)
Sworddancer.: McFox (

)
SwordsRbroken: (0)
The_Guide: (0)
vanderzant: (0)
VitaminC: (0)
xxFrohawkxx: (0)
Not Voting: Kataefi,Swiss, Sworddancer., VitaminC (

)

The_Guide has been prodded.

 

[McFox]

I had zero intention of lynching Swiss, although when McFox flips scum I may come back to him.

McFox? Pissed as hell because he's playing like scum.

Derp and you still fail to understand. As I have mentioned numerous times, anything can be done for good or bad, it all depends on the context. I feel like that moment has passed, and so now I can explain myself.

I jumped in front of Swiss because as a new player, if he were scum he'd be much more likely to allow me to defend him. Whereas if he were town, he'd still want to get a word of his own in.

Looking at Swiss' posts about Ryker, I don't see him using me to defend himself. Swiss still addressed most of the point directed at him as best he could (and the points were, as I've pointed out, flawed at best anyway). So yes, I jumped in front of Swiss because I thought it would make it much easier for me to get a read on both Swiss and Ryker. Ryker by arguing with him when he was trying to get something else done (thus distracting him and leaving his guard down for manipulation from my end), and Swiss because like I said, new scum would allow an IC to defend them more than new town would, from my POV.

I don't think either Swiss or Ryker is scum at the moment. Ryker's case on Swiss was obviously weak, but like I figured (and he confirms here), he was mostly grasping straws to get us out of RVS anyway. Ryker is understandably frustrated with my intervening, which I do not see coming from scum. Sure, he might be a bit miffed that I stepped in, but he wouldn't be as peeved as he is now if he were scum pushing a fake case on a townie.

"But McFox," you might be asking yourself, "why go through all of that instead of just letting Ryker push his weak case on Swiss?"

Well for one, if Swiss was allowed to handle it on his own and he was scum, he could be coached by his scumbuddies on what to say. He could just wait to respond until he conferred with them, and they could come up with something good. This way, I figured, even if Swiss talked to scumbuddies about it, all they'd have to say is "Hey, looks like McFox is doing the heavy lifting for you. Ryker's case on you is weak anyway, so just let McFox take care of it." I didn't see any evidence of that in his responses.

And secondly, like I said, this allowed me to gauge Ryker as well as Swiss at the same time. Me muscling in on Ryker's case puts him off-balance. If he's scum, he wouldn't really care if his case against Swiss didn't go through, because he'll be happy with any lynch that isn't scum. However, as a townie, Ryker grew increasingly frustrated and determined to see his case through to the end, despite my doing my best to meddle with it.

For now, Sworddancer is my #1 suspect. Kat clearly highlighted how he has managed to keep his options open, pulling for both sides while definitely siding with neither. As I mentioned, scum is happy with any lynch that isn't their own, so they keep their options open so that they can jump on or off of bandwagons at their leisure.

@McFox, can you explain why you voted for Swords, I don't see the actual evidence in your evidence, as it were.

Now hopefully you understand. After my little spat with Ryker, I'm pretty unconvinced that he is scum. He pushed his weak case on you to "start" the game, basically. I called him on it, but his responses to our argument haven't seemed scummy at all, they seem like an increasingly frustrated townie whose work is being interfered with. dancer jumping onto a bandwagon I started while simultaneously calling what I did scummy is scummy.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ryker was severly limiting the toDay's conversation by posting a fluff argument with McFox. McFox obviously is trying to be a good IC and give Swiss right to remain silent and acted sort of like his attorney. However, this could also be classic buddying, but I'm not quite sure if it's truly scummy.

Wgat? No one can answer my question about how McFox answering for Swiss is a good thing and then there are posts like this?

@Ryker, can you explain in one clear post, how McFox has been scummy? What do you think of Swords and Dancer?

SRB I like at the moment. It's not much of a read. I will withhold my opinion on Dancer for the time being and elaborate more on it later after I've seen him answer SRB's questions.