Newbie Mafia 6 - OVER! Who lived happily ever after in Newbie Land?!

[rPSIvysaur]

Nah, bro. See you're getting pressured already. A wagon helps put extra pressure. I'm really trying to see how you react right now.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

You ninja'd me.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ryker, in all seriousness, a bandwagon isn't a good idea right now. You can try and rack up some votes on me and get me lynched, sure, but how does that help town?

RVS is for putting pressure on people and watching how they react NOT just getting a random person and trying to lynch them.

Voting is good, trying to band wagon a player isn't pro town.

And that's a fallacy. Lynching scum is how we win.

Can we get more votes please.

 

[Swiss]

And that's a fallacy. Lynching scum is how we win.

Can we get more votes please.

Lynching scum is how we win, not bandwagoning a random player and hoping.

You are suggesting the former when in reality, attempting the latter.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'm not, I have a perfectly good reason to think you're scum.

Be back when I finish in the yard.

 

[Swiss]

Beautiful, you state it's a fallacy with no reasoning.

You state you have a perfectly good reason for believing me to be scum then make an excuse as to why you won't be posting for a bit.


This is classic "I want other people to be as fervent as I am" without providing, at any point, any reasoning.

Please, explain what information you have about me that is SO compelling that everyone must vote to lynch me.

 

[McFox]

I really don't see what everyone's problem with me is. I asked Ryker to explain why he feels a certain way about RVS, and he refuses because not explaining it is so effective, like srsly u guyz. That's why saying stuff like this

Wagon please.

and this

Can we get more votes please.

is needed, because randomly voting around is so effective.

You dismiss what (to me) seems like a genuine attempt at an introduction post, and an explanation aimed at newbies from Ryker.

What explanation? Ryker gave no explanation. That's what I want from Ryker is an explanation. All he did was say "This is RVS, where you vote people for no reason! I am so gonna catch scum this way you guys, I'm super serious."

See what I mean? Notice that you don't pose any questions to other players in these posts, or leave your points open to discuss.

1) I don't have any questions for other players yet.

2) I haven't made any points because they would be counter to Ryker's points. Like I said, I can't argue against something that hasn't been argued for. That's like if someone walked up to me and said

"Hey, God is real."

and I say

"I don't think he is."

and then they say

"Oh yeah? Explain why."

and so I go

"Uhh..."

See? I can't argue against something until you tell me why your side is relevant or worthy of discussion. I disagree with Ryker's idea that RVS is some kind of great stage of the game, and I don't agree with him (and Swords) throwing it out there for new players that "Okay, here you should vote for anybody for no reason!" That doesn't help new players learn how to play. It tells them the what, but not the why, which is the important part if we're trying to facilitate new players. If this were a regular game, I obviously wouldn't care at all if Ryker put value in RVS for no explained reason. But if we are trying to teach new players how to play, I feel it's our duty to explain why we make at least SOME of the moves we make. The chances of catching scum during RVS, even though it has happened before, are still very small. And I think it would help new players more if Ryker would explain why it's so great, instead of just letting everyone fend for themselves.

Hopefully I've made myself clear by this point.

Vote: Ryker

Don't really like the nonexistant push on Swiss or the begging for people to follow him on it.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

McFox, stop being dumb.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

"Hey, God is real."

and I say

"I don't think he is."

and then they say

"Oh yeah? Explain why."

and so I go

"Uhh..."

Really bad example.

It's more like I've said I'm going to see if I can get the culprit of a crime to get caught in a lie, but you want me to walk up to him and tell him how I plan on going about it. When Swiss flips scum, you can follow him.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

We can have fun and lynch each other, yay!

This is my first game on this forum, so hi and props for liking smash ^^

k

Ah, the joys of casual killing.

VOTE: McFox

I hate McDoanlds and love Falco.

Working under the recently obtained suspicion that McFox and Swiss are scummates, I'm going to say that I think this is a distancing attempt. Scum like to try and put votes between themselves and scummates during RVS when things are seldom taken seriously.

And I would have got away with it had it not been for you meddling kids!

Back to joking. Doesn't really worry about the vote placed on him. Makes me think Fro might be the third scum.

Why Toomin?

It was a Scooby Doo reference, I thought it was hilarious

Some people are yet to post, lurkers!

More jokes.

RVS/RVQ

Are there any stats on this? I'd love to know (assuming you can classify is RVS/RVQ was used) which has a higher hit rate, with the number of mafia games that have been played I reckon we might be able to get a statistically significant answer.

'Course it'd be difficult to do...

Doesn't answer the question. Adds a bunch of nonsense.

I'm not sure McFox's replies have been quite sufficient to satisfy me, to my mind, he hasn't really addressed the points made at him, especially those by Vander.

I'm saying this so he can rethink what he means, and clarify the situation.

Quick to try and give the guy he's voting an out from any possible form of pressure.

If the doctor is NK'd (by mafia) that means no-one can die that night anyway, so yeah his 'protected' person would survive.

No

Yes?

What do you mean that he's 'wrong'?



Someone had better confirm that though, this is just what I think is right.


Don't know how to multi quote here so

@ Ryker: Haha, so tempted to OMGUS vote you there, at least pretend to have a reason!

Hey look. Unlike last time, he quickly tries to point out that I'm shooting blanks. Why not do the same for Fro instead of basically ignoring it.

You er, you voted me.

Then in one post:

Unvoted me.

Voted me.




Say what?

Worried you're going to be lynched on D1 or what?

Ryker, in all seriousness, a bandwagon isn't a good idea right now. You can try and rack up some votes on me and get me lynched, sure, but how does that help town?

RVS is for putting pressure on people and watching how they react NOT just getting a random person and trying to lynch them.

Voting is good, trying to band wagon a player isn't pro town.

And here, after Rocket makes the third vote, he freaks out. There was absolutely no reasoning posted as to why he should be lynched, yet, instead of calmly pointing them out, he questions a basic mechanic of the game. Pressure voting.

This is true, but I've seen games where scum quick hammered and have made it look accidental, scum can work together, best not to give them the opportunity. Imho.

K. I never wanted you to be put at L-1 where quickhammering is possible without it being blatantly obvious what had happened. Besides, your scummates wouldn't do that to you, right?

Lynching scum is how we win, not bandwagoning a random player and hoping.

You are suggesting the former when in reality, attempting the latter.

Why? If you're going to state that bandwagoning is bad, explain why please. I like bandwagons. Especially early in the day. Besides, when all's said and done, it's the only way to get a lynch.

Beautiful, you state it's a fallacy with no reasoning.

You state you have a perfectly good reason for believing me to be scum then make an excuse as to why you won't be posting for a bit.


This is classic "I want other people to be as fervent as I am" without providing, at any point, any reasoning.

Please, explain what information you have about me that is SO compelling that everyone must vote to lynch me.

I have. You're scum. McFox is doing his ****edest to defend you. Fro may be the third. I simply had to do some yardwork before I could post.

 

[hidajiremi]

McFox, stop being dumb.

Personal attacks like this one don't help anybody, and just make you look more guilty. As my beloved grandmother always said, if you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all. Right now, I'm leaning toward you and Swiss as scum, though McFox hasn't impressed me much either. I still feel like I don't have enough information for an informed vote, so I'm continuing to hold off.

Hida Jiremi

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Not persoanl opinion. He made a stupid comparison, and thus he is being dumb and needs to stop. Also, if you try and wait too long to place a vote until you're sure, you're not helping the process. Be more candid with your opinions.

 

[McFox]

You know Ryker, reading that post, it's almost as though Swiss doesn't really know what to do at the beginning of D1, and is a little lost.

Working under the recently obtained suspicion that McFox and Swiss are scummates, I'm going to say that I think this is a distancing attempt. Scum like to try and put votes between themselves and scummates during RVS when things are seldom taken seriously.

So you're working under the assumption that when you told new players to vote randomly for people for no reason, that they'd actually have hidden meanings behind their votes that only vets would catch, which would make the votes not random at all. Gotcha.

Quick to try and give the guy he's voting an out from any possible form of pressure.

Yeah, because before this I was really feeling the heat from Swiss voting for me because of my name. I gotta tell you, I was about to crack under the pressure of that single vote that was made for no reason at all. It's a good thing he gave me that out, or I might have confessed right then and there because I couldn't handle it anymore.

Hey look. Unlike last time, he quickly tries to point out that I'm shooting blanks.

I thought we encourage people to speak the truth in mafia?

Worried you're going to be lynched on D1 or what?

Ah yes, the classic "only scum is worried about getting lynched, while town doesn't care at all" gambit. Because Swiss doesn't want to be lynched, he must be scum! Your intuitive prowess is unparalleled.

And here, after Rocket makes the third vote, he freaks out. There was absolutely no reasoning posted as to why he should be lynched, yet, instead of calmly pointing them out, he questions a basic mechanic of the game. Pressure voting.

I wouldn't exactly call "Ryker, in all seriousness, a bandwagon isn't a good idea right now. You can try and rack up some votes on me and get me lynched, sure, but how does that help town?" "freaking out," really. I'd go with something more like "entirely justified," or "the only counter a new player might have to a quick bandwagon on D1 for no reason."

McFox is doing his ****edest to defend you.

Wrong. I'm trying to defend people from you, which is an important distinction. Since you explain nothing, I have to play devil's advocate and try and pull these kinds of posts out of you, so we can see your thought process.

You exaggerated every single one of your "points" in order to bolster your "case," because laying it out straight would yield no real case at all, beyond "we voted for Swiss and he didn't want to get lynched!" Um, duh? My vote stands.

 

[McFox]

And btw my analogy was entirely applicable, you simply completely refuse to explain why RVS is so great. If your "case" on Swiss is the proof of your process, color me unimpressed.

 

[hidajiremi]

Not persoanl opinion. He made a stupid comparison, and thus he is being dumb and needs to stop. Also, if you try and wait too long to place a vote until you're sure, you're not helping the process. Be more candid with your opinions.

Then you can call his comparison "unfounded" or "incorrect." "Dumb" and "stupid" are rude, and they apply your personal values to an entirely subjective thing. Being discourteous doesn't "help the process" either. And if you want me to be more candid: Everything you've said has been nothing but smokescreens and name-calling. You haven't been helpful, and have intentionally been obstructive several times. Either you're scum, or you're very antagonistic town.

Vote: Ryker


Hida Jiremi

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Thanks. I appreciate you backing up your statements with more than simply fluff.

Now, how is being antagonistic a scum tell?

What have I smokescreened?

Where have I been intentionally obstructive? I believe you may have me confused with McFox.

Now, McFox, I'm getting at you.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

You know Ryker, reading that post, it's almost as though Swiss doesn't really know what to do at the beginning of D1, and is a little lost.

So good of you to defend your scummate then.

So you're working under the assumption that when you told new players to vote randomly for people for no reason, that they'd actually have hidden meanings behind their votes that only vets would catch, which would make the votes not random at all. Gotcha.

Not at all. Personally, I never vote at random. If I open with a joke vote, it's generally aimed at Ronike because he always thinks I tunnel him. Therefore it's not random. In most cases, there is an agenda behind votes. I said that people don't utilize RVS correctly. Not that it was completely random.

Yeah, because before this I was really feeling the heat from Swiss voting for me because of my name. I gotta tell you, I was about to crack under the pressure of that single vote that was made for no reason at all. It's a good thing he gave me that out, or I might have confessed right then and there because I couldn't handle it anymore.

Dohohoho. Your sarcasm frightens me right off the case. It does nothing to change the fact that he did immediately come to your defense.

I thought we encourage people to speak the truth in mafia?

Why? Lying is highly effective sometimes. Honestly, I can't remember what you quoted to say this, so I'll hit it in an EBWOP.

Ah yes, the classic "only scum is worried about getting lynched, while town doesn't care at all" gambit. Because Swiss doesn't want to be lynched, he must be scum! Your intuitive prowess is unparalleled.

Your sarcasm wounds me yet again! But no, town's number one objective is hitting scum. A heavy focus on self preservation has always been indicative of scum whether they be mafia or indy.

I wouldn't exactly call "Ryker, in all seriousness, a bandwagon isn't a good idea right now. You can try and rack up some votes on me and get me lynched, sure, but how does that help town?" "freaking out," really. I'd go with something more like "entirely justified," or "the only counter a new player might have to a quick bandwagon on D1 for no reason."

Oh? Because when I was new I simply called the guy an idiot for trying to lynch me with no reasoning. It's not hard to do no matter your skill level.

Wrong. I'm trying to defend people from you, which is an important distinction. Since you explain nothing, I have to play devil's advocate and try and pull these kinds of posts out of you, so we can see your thought process.

So,... let me put this into layman's terms. You want to score good guy points by defending people who can very well defend themselves? Being new does not classify you as stupid or as an invalid. Also, explaining everything is a dumb idea in general. Scum already have the upper hand in information, why give them more? There's a line to draw. I'm surprised you can survive in an environment containing posters like Marshy and Kevin if my posting is intolerable.

You exaggerated every single one of your "points" in order to bolster your "case," because laying it out straight would yield no real case at all, beyond "we voted for Swiss and he didn't want to get lynched!" Um, duh? My vote stands.

So? It's Day 1. I'm not idiotic enough to say that you don't get the least amount of info on Day 1. You have to move on less or we're stuck ***** footing around the whole phase. Also, please direct me to where I said we should lynch him immediately. We have time to burn before deadline and more votes yields more information.

And btw my analogy was entirely applicable, you simply completely refuse to explain why RVS is so great. If your "case" on Swiss is the proof of your process, color me unimpressed.

Wrong. I didn't say it was so great, I said it isn't utilized to its fullest and I may have also said that I enjoy it. Day 1 is my favorite day.

So, now McFox, do you think Swiss is a moron? I don't. If your answer is no, then why defend him instead of letting him fend for himself. Just because this is a newbie game doesn't mean we need to hold people's hands. Give allowances, sure. Answer questions? Great. Defend them against cases before they've had a shot at them? Hell no.

FoS: McFox

And before it is asked, FoS stands for Finger of Suspicion and is used when you don't want to throw a vote. Most commonly when you are already voting someone else.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

EBWOP:

The point I glossed over is lame. I was pointing out the difference in two reactions and you make an unrelated statement. Try rephrasing it if you want me to respond.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Grr... smash boards down johns.

Kataefi, what kind of major scumtells will you be looking for?

The problem with answering this question is that it would give scum a list of things not to do, thus making it very hard to find scum actually doing them. Just think logically, and if someone does something that you think might be something that a scum would want, call them out on it.

So, anyways, I'm really starting to kinda take McFox's side of this. I think he has explained himself better, and I still don't see what makes "pressure" in the RVS so good. It seems like you have to make a random bandwagon for it to have any real pressure. I can understand Ryker making cases against people (after all, that is how you catch scum) but right now I think he's linking people together with very little to no evidence.

Ryker, at what point does McFox defend Swiss before you made the post calling him out on that? Also, Ryker, doesn't it make sense that people wouldn't feel pressured by votes that
are just random?

Now, Mcfox, something does bother me about you. You did seem to defend swiss a lot in your last post, and in the last newbie mafia game you seemed aggressive towards newbies. In that game you never really brought into the newbie card, and in this game you seem to be acting quite differently. "Swiss is just in lost the game?" Just about a month ago you seemed to be singing a whole different tone. Now in that game you were town. I wonder if maybe the reason that you're acting differently is because you are on a different side this game?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Ninja'd by Ryker.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Well I have some questions.

What if the town doctor is NK'd does that mean his patient survieves?
I'm guessing so, but i do not know.

Does the cult leader already have a cult buddy?
There was no N0 (night 0) so he does not have a buddy. Night 0 is like the night before the first day starts. It gives everyone a chance to do their actions before the first day.

Isn't the Town Miller just a powered up VT since you don't know your even a miller?
No. When the Town Miller is investigated by the cop, the mod tells him that the miller is scum, when in fact the miller is town.

If a doctor protects a Macho cop and he's wrong does this mean that Macho is dead?
No. If i interpret the role PM in the post with the rules and that stuff correctly, then the cop cannot be protected by the doctor.

responses in red.

@mcfox Okay, your biggest point against ryker is his liking of the RVS, but can you point out any other bigger, better points? Right now you seem to want to get rid of ryker for him liking the RVS. I agree with his point on there. I'm not buddying, but i just want you to enlighten us on other reasons why you think ryker is scum now that he has explained his case on you and swiss.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Also, Ryker, doesn't it make sense that people wouldn't feel pressured by votes that are just random?

Perfect sense. I was pointing out the discrepancy between where he cared and where he didn't.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Grr... smash boards down johns.



The problem with answering this question is that it would give scum a list of things not to do, thus making it very hard to find scum actually doing them. Just think logically, and if someone does something that you think might be something that a scum would want, call them out on it.

I see what you mean. I was mostly thinking this as another way to say "how are you going to play this game to win for town." I probably phrased it poorly, but answering that would do just as well. It's your choice though.

Now, Mcfox, something does bother me about you. You did seem to defend swiss a lot in your last post, and in the last newbie mafia game you seemed aggressive towards newbies. In that game you never really brought into the newbie card, and in this game you seem to be acting quite differently. "Swiss is just in lost the game?" Just about a month ago you seemed to be singing a whole different tone. Now in that game you were town. I wonder if maybe the reason that you're acting differently is because you are on a different side this game?

Meta-gaming is seriously not something I want to have done in a newbie mafia, it gives you a larger and advantage and puts the McFox at a disadvantage for trying out a different style. If I played the same style last, I'd probably be lynched day 1 again.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Meta-gaming is seriously not something I want to have done in a newbie mafia, it gives you a larger and advantage and puts the McFox at a disadvantage for trying out a different style. If I played the same style last, I'd probably be lynched day 1 again.

Nononononononononononononononono.

NO!

I disagree completely. Metagaming is a tool and is to be used as such. It is not something to base a case off of solely, but it can certainly be used in conjunction with other things. I have not read Newbie 5, but if McFox played completely different in that game and this one, I would most certainly look into it.

 

[McFox]

Not at all. Personally, I never vote at random. If I open with a joke vote, it's generally aimed at Ronike because he always thinks I tunnel him. Therefore it's not random. In most cases, there is an agenda behind votes. I said that people don't utilize RVS correctly. Not that it was completely random

Ah now I see. You told new players to vote at random, knowing that their votes would NOT be random, just like yours.

Dohohoho. Your sarcasm frightens me right off the case. It does nothing to change the fact that he did immediately come to your defense.

Hmm, last time he just gave me an out. Now he's actively coming to my defense. Which is it? As I said before, exaggerating to inflate your "case" ensures that the case will not endure scrutiny.

Also, how does this even make sense? What you're saying is that Swiss came to my defense... from himself.

Your sarcasm wounds me yet again! But no, town's number one objective is hitting scum. A heavy focus on self preservation has always been indicative of scum whether they be mafia or indy.

And a town player getting lynched assists in the number one objective of hitting scum... how, exactly?

Oh? Because when I was new I simply called the guy an idiot for trying to lynch me with no reasoning. It's not hard to do no matter your skill level.

Ah, now I think I get it. Anyone who doesn't play exactly like you is scum. Got it.

Also, please direct me to where I said we should lynch him immediately.

Before I do that, would you please direct me to where I said that you said that? Oh wait, I didn't. Hmm.

So, now McFox, do you think Swiss is a moron? I don't. If your answer is no, then why defend him instead of letting him fend for himself. Just because this is a newbie game doesn't mean we need to hold people's hands.

Of course not. But I do feel it's my duty to point out very obviously flawed cases, no matter who it comes from. Feel free to beg people for more votes if you want.

(From now on in this game the two Swords are going to be referred to as "dancer" and "broken")

You did seem to defend swiss a lot in your last post, and in the last newbie mafia game you seemed aggressive towards newbies. In that game you never really brought into the newbie card, and in this game you seem to be acting quite differently.

I don't really feel it's different. I was only alive for one day in NM5, and I thought I was pretty easy-going. Only one player caught my attention, and I didn't take it easy on him because I thought he was scum. However, that was because he'd given out actual scumtells (even though he was town). Here, Ryker has nothing on Swiss, but is trying to pretend he does. I'm trying to figure out if Ryker is just trying to facilitate an easy case early on, or whether he really thinks he's on to something.

Right now you seem to want to get rid of ryker for him liking the RVS.

Did I say this?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ah now I see. You told new players to vote at random, knowing that their votes would NOT be random, just like yours.

I don't remember this at all. I remember saying that people don't utilize RVS to it's fullest, that its infinitely better than what some people have dubbed "RQS", and maybe that I liked it, but I don't remember describing its complexities. Please show me the quote, because I don't remember informing anyone on it because I didn't intend to.

Hmm, last time he just gave me an out. Now he's actively coming to my defense. Which is it? As I said before, exaggerating to inflate your "case" ensures that the case will not endure scrutiny.

Wgat? They're one in the same. He came to your defense by providing you an out. I would think that's fairly obvious.

Wait until we're done before you shoot your mouth off about what my case will and will not do. I find the taste of my own words being thrust back down my throat rather sour.

Also, how does this even make sense? What you're saying is that Swiss came to my defense... from himself.

Nope. Reread it. Another player (name escapes me), had voted you after he had and made some reason up to which Swiss responded.

And a town player getting lynched assists in the number one objective of hitting scum... how, exactly?

I am not saying that a townie getting lynched helps (in most cases), but I am saying that the townie's main interest is not surviving. Odds are against you living anyway.

Ah, now I think I get it. Anyone who doesn't play exactly like you is scum. Got it.

And don't you forget it!

Before I do that, would you please direct me to where I said that you said that? Oh wait, I didn't. Hmm.

Then don't twist my words. Hurr durr.

I don't really feel it's different. I was only alive for one day in NM5, and I thought I was pretty easy-going. Only one player caught my attention, and I didn't take it easy on him because I thought he was scum. However, that was because he'd given out actual scumtells (even though he was town). Here, Ryker has nothing on Swiss, but is trying to pretend he does. I'm trying to figure out if Ryker is just trying to facilitate an easy case early on, or whether he really thinks he's on to something.

How about if you don't know what I'm doing, you stop answering things directed at other people in an attempt to disrupt me.

Unvote

Vote: McFox

Swiss can follow him since he seems intent on getting himself lynched. The order in which you lynch scum in this game really doesn't matter.

Swiss, I still want you to respond to what I've said rather than hide behind McFox.

 

[McFox]

but I don't remember describing its complexities

This is the whole point, and is entirely why I'm countering you now. I wanted you to describe its complexities. By just mentioning it at the beginning of the day but not saying anything about it, you are not teaching anyone how to do anything other than lose. Yes, you should try to win this game, but we are also teaching new players how to play. By saying "This is RVS, do whatever you want to!" and then assigning hidden meaning to their votes after the fact that the voters themselves are not aware of, you aren't accomplishing anything aside from...*

I also fail to see how your vote on me is anything but an OMGUS. I picked apart your weaksauce case, and then WHOA I must be scum! Funny how that works.

*I'll come back to this if I can figure anything out.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

This is the whole point, and is entirely why I'm countering you now. I wanted you to describe its complexities. By just mentioning it at the beginning of the day but not saying anything about it, you are not teaching anyone how to do anything other than lose. Yes, you should try to win this game, but we are also teaching new players how to play. By saying "This is RVS, do whatever you want to!" and then assigning hidden meaning to their votes after the fact that the voters themselves are not aware of, you aren't accomplishing anything aside from...*

I also fail to see how your vote on me is anything but an OMGUS. I picked apart your weaksauce case, and then WHOA I must be scum! Funny how that works.

*I'll come back to this if I can figure anything out.

This is the second time I feel the need to tell you to stop being dumb. OMGUS this is not. I hate it when people use that bull**** to try and discredit someone. Get the hell out of here with that ****.

Now then, there's a difference between helping new players and reaching into your own bag of tricks and handing them out like they were candy. No, I'm not going to explain my strategies involving RVS.

I never said, "This is RVS, do whatever you want to!" that would be stupid and stupid is one of the few things I am not. I'm also not trying to label every player's actions as hidden agendas. That would also be extremely dumb. However, scum do tend to try and utilize RVS as an attempt to distance. I have no qualms with pointing out where I do think that an ulterior motive lies.

I also like how you refused to address some of my counter points and focused only on what you could get away with then called my case weak sauce. I will come back to you after Swiss has been given a chance to post.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

tl;dr

You can play Swiss's lawyer all you like McFox, but don't take away my chance to question the witness. Worry about it when it's your turn for a cross-examination.

 

[Kataefi]

wow this thread is moving fast. weeee have LIFTOFF!

@Los Newbios: I would say now is a good chance to start digging deep and asking questions! what do you all make of Ryker's stance on swiss? What about Mcfox's counterpoints? Does anything stand out as suspicious? Is Ryker right to be suspicious of Swiss?

right now im very interested in getting some more info out of you ryker before I begin voting.

I think your case against swisscheese has too much focus on reaching for those scum-inherent explanations of his behaviour. comes off a little obsessive - you under-emphasise all the situational influences imo:-

Working under the recently obtained suspicion that McFox and Swiss are scummates, I'm going to say that I think this is a distancing attempt.

So what? You say: swiss voting mcfox is a distancing attempt. Everyone who voted in this period can be said to be distancing then. It's selective perception if you're only targeting one player out of a group of players doing identical things. It's also ironic that you call him out after RVS was explained. What were you expecting here?

Also where is the analysis on this 'recently obtained suspicion'?

Back to joking. Doesn't really worry about the vote placed on him. Makes me think Fro might be the third scum.

More jokes.

Doesn't answer the question. Adds a bunch of nonsense.

Quick to try and give the guy he's voting an out from any possible form of pressure.

so... what? what are these meant to be showing?

where is the analysis that links these observations to his scumminess? these are just empty observations.

also note these 2 quotes:

Back to joking. Doesn't really worry about the vote placed on him. Makes me think Fro might be the third scum.

And here, after Rocket makes the third vote, he freaks out. There was absolutely no reasoning posted as to why he should be lynched, yet, instead of calmly pointing them out, he questions a basic mechanic of the game.

This is like observer-expectency:

- he doesn't react to the vote, therefore this is scummy to me
- he does react to the vote, therefore this is scummy to me

It's a ****ed-if-you-do/don't scenario. It looks like you're forcing scumtells out of this information - this is a near-case of tunnelling ol'chum!

and this...

I have. You're scum. McFox is doing his ****edest to defend you. Fro may be the third. I simply had to do some yardwork before I could post.

...looks a little too sure of itself, considering its basis.
_

So yeah my beef is - you're reaching way too hard for that case right now. What possessed you?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

What the hell is up with you people not letting Swiss fight his own battles. Jesus. Stop it.

So what? You say: swiss voting mcfox is a distancing attempt. Everyone who voted in this period can be said to be distancing then. It's selective perception if you're only targeting one player out of a group of players doing identical things. It's also ironic that you call him out after RVS was explained. What were you expecting here?

It's only in light of other posts. It was the first in chronological order though. Not understanding the second bit. Rephrase it please.

Also where is the analysis on this 'recently obtained suspicion'?

In the rest of the post.

so... what? what are these meant to be showing?

It's a direct analysis of each post Swiss has made.

where is the analysis that links these observations to his scumminess? these are just empty observations.

also note these 2 quotes:



This is like observer-expectency:

- he doesn't react to the vote, therefore this is scummy to me
- he does react to the vote, therefore this is scummy to me

It's a ****ed-if-you-do/don't scenario. It looks like you're forcing scumtells out of this information - this is a near-case of tunnelling ol'chum!

It's the discrepancy between the two that is the problem. Either one on it's own is nothing, however, the different reactions to the same thing are what make it scummy.

...looks a little too sure of itself, considering its basis.

If you aren't going to be confident in accusations, you can be made to back down when you shouldn't. I can and WILL be forceful in everything I do.

So yeah my beef is - you're reaching way too hard for that case right now. What possessed you?

Better question. What stopped you? Someone has to start somewhere. I did that. Get on my level.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PRO-TIP FOR EVERYONE

When someone makes a case or asks a question targeting one person in particular, let said person answer for themselves. Otherwise, you may very well be allowing scum to hide behind your answers.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

What the hell is up with you people not letting Swiss fight his own battles. Jesus. Stop it.

So what? You say: swiss voting mcfox is a distancing attempt. Everyone who voted in this period can be said to be distancing then. It's selective perception if you're only targeting one player out of a group of players doing identical things. It's also ironic that you call him out after RVS was explained. What were you expecting here?

It's only in light of other posts. It was the first in chronological order though. Not understanding the second bit. Rephrase it please.

Also where is the analysis on this 'recently obtained suspicion'?

In the rest of the post.

so... what? what are these meant to be showing?

It's a direct analysis of each post Swiss has made.

where is the analysis that links these observations to his scumminess? these are just empty observations.

also note these 2 quotes:



This is like observer-expectency:

- he doesn't react to the vote, therefore this is scummy to me
- he does react to the vote, therefore this is scummy to me

It's a ****ed-if-you-do/don't scenario. It looks like you're forcing scumtells out of this information - this is a near-case of tunnelling ol'chum!

It's the discrepancy between the two that is the problem. Either one on it's own is nothing, however, the different reactions to the same thing are what make it scummy.

...looks a little too sure of itself, considering its basis.

If you aren't going to be confident in accusations, you can be made to back down when you shouldn't. I can and WILL be forceful in everything I do.

So yeah my beef is - you're reaching way too hard for that case right now. What possessed you?

Better question. What stopped you? Someone has to start somewhere. I did that. Get on my level.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PRO-TIP FOR EVERYONE

When someone makes a case or asks a question targeting one person in particular, let said person answer for themselves. Otherwise, you may very well be allowing scum to hide behind your answers.

 

[Swiss]

I'm not, I have a perfectly good reason to think you're scum.

Be back when I finish in the yard.

You're reason is:

I have. You're scum. McFox is doing his ****edest to defend you. Fro may be the third. I simply had to do some yardwork before I could post.

I'm scum as you're tunnelling me and a player happens to think that what you are doing is either over fervent or wrong? You think that is a reason to believe me scum? Really?

Also McFox isn't doing "his ****edest to defend me", he's trying to defend himself and by making a case about how poor your arguments are in this thread in general, he can show why your accusations are improbable.

There are a lot of non posters here, I'd like to hear what they think about Ryker's opinions, I for one am surprised that Ryker has identified 2/3 scum in D1 during RVS when no-one else seems to have particularly strong opinions, he must be by far the best player.

1)Dohohoho. Your sarcasm frightens me right off the case. It does nothing to change the fact that he did immediately come to your defense.






2)Your sarcasm wounds me yet again! But no, town's number one objective is hitting scum. A heavy focus on self preservation has always been indicative of scum whether they be mafia or indy.






3)So, now McFox, do you think Swiss is a moron? I don't. If your answer is no, then why defend him instead of letting him fend for himself. Just because this is a newbie game doesn't mean we need to hold people's hands. Give allowances, sure. Answer questions? Great. Defend them against cases before they've had a shot at them? Hell no.

1) I assume you mean me, please, quote where I immediately came to his defence.

2) Tunnelling is poor town play, or very poor/utterly brilliant scum play.

3) Why can he not put in his opinions about your 'case' against me. It won't stop me saying why it's wrong. Why are you afraid of other people's opinions? Letting everyone say what they think is pro town, lack of information is pro mafia.

 

[Swiss]

Swiss can follow him since he seems intent on getting himself lynched. The order in which you lynch scum in this game really doesn't matter.

Swiss, I still want you to respond to what I've said rather than hide behind McFox.

I apologise for sleeping and so 'hiding behind McFox'.


You just don't understand do you, McFox is not protecting me in his posts (we'll let other people draw their conclusions as opposed to accepting what you say) he is attacking you. Your posts are narrow, aggressive and scummy.

Working under the recently obtained suspicion that McFox and Swiss are scummates, I'm going to say that I think this is a distancing attempt. Scum like to try and put votes between themselves and scummates during RVS when things are seldom taken seriously.

It's not a distancing effect then, is it? If things aren't taken seriously, why would my vote on him make us look like 'enemies'?

It wouldn't, it didn't.




Your answer to kat's 110 about your conflicting claims doesn't wash with me.

 

[vanderzant]

Smashboards has been down for a while, so I apologise for the lateness of this post. I feel the discussion has progressed significantly, and I'll address it with my own input, but firstly:

Hopefully I've made myself clear by this point.

@McFox: Very clear. Thank you for your explanation. I think I understand where you were coming from now.

@ Ryker

Why are you trying to generate scum tells out of joke votes?

I interpreted your vote on Swiss (that you followed up with by asking for a bandwagon) as the first serious vote in the thread. Swiss' responses seem more of a noobtell than anything to me (rich, coming from myself I know). Yet, you relentlessly feel the need to pursue a weak case, when there is still plenty of time (over a week).

Why do you feel such a strong need to pursue this, when no one else seems to agree with you?

Swiss beat me to the punch, but I believe McFox is not trying to defend him, as so much as to show why your case on Swiss is so weak. So you change your vote to him and because he disagrees with you. McFox has you backed into a corner, so your way out is straight through him. Nice.

PRO-TIP FOR EVERYONE

When someone makes a case or asks a question targeting one person in particular, let said person answer for themselves. Otherwise, you may very well be allowing scum to hide behind your answers.

Translation: If I'm starting a bandwagon on a new player, don't try to help them at all. That way, new players can fall into my traps. Oh, and if you point out the flaws in my case, all you're doing is losing the game for the Town

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Did I say this?

In a way yes. This whole argument between you, ryker, and limburger Swiss had started because ryker said openly that he liked using the RVS to pressure people. You hopped on him for getting newbies to like the RVS. Whilst i agree with ryker on the RVS, i don't agree with his points on metagaming at all. I never rely on metagaming. But ryker, you seem to be pressuring swiss very hard, even though he is a newbie. Remember that this is a newbie game and we're here to teach newbies how to play mafia.

But your argument does have some merit. Seems to me that some of it is grasping straws.

 

[McFox]

This is the second time I feel the need to tell you to stop being dumb. OMGUS this is not. I hate it when people use that bull**** to try and discredit someone. Get the hell out of here with that ****.

Translation: "Ryker freaks out when accused of OMGUS."

I never said, "This is RVS, do whatever you want to!" etc.

This is the point you keep missing. By not explaining anything about RVS, this is exactly the message you gave to the new players, whether it was intentional or not.

I also like how you refused to address some of my counter points and focused only on what you could get away with then called my case weak sauce.

What you call "what I could get away with" I call "the root of the problem so why bother with the fluff?" And as Kat handely showed (some more), your case is weaksauce.

You can play Swiss's lawyer all you like McFox, but don't take away my chance to question the witness. Worry about it when it's your turn for a cross-examination.

That's not how cross-examinations work. Not that that wasn't super-intimidating though, I'm really dreading it.

McFox is not protecting me in his posts (we'll let other people draw their conclusions as opposed to accepting what you say) he is attacking you.

Bingo! Johnny, tell our contestant what he's won!

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'm scum as you're tunnelling me and a player happens to think that what you are doing is either over fervent or wrong? You think that is a reason to believe me scum? Really?

Where am I tunneling? Where have I ignored something put forward by another player in favor of staying on you.

Also McFox isn't doing "his ****edest to defend me", he's trying to defend himself and by making a case about how poor your arguments are in this thread in general, he can show why your accusations are improbable.

Yes he is. It's either that or he's coddling a new player and either one is bad. If my arguments are so bad, what stopped you?

There are a lot of non posters here, I'd like to hear what they think about Ryker's opinions, I for one am surprised that Ryker has identified 2/3 scum in D1 during RVS when no-one else seems to have particularly strong opinions, he must be by far the best player.

I'm not accusing lurkers until they've had a chance to post. Give it till the end of the day and I'll give it some merit.

1) I assume you mean me, please, quote where I immediately came to his defence.

I alreacdy have. Read again. It's not that you do it over and over, the game hasn't gon eon that long.

2) Tunnelling is poor town play, or very poor/utterly brilliant scum play.

Good thing I'm not tunneling. I addressed that above.

3) Why can he not put in his opinions about your 'case' against me. It won't stop me saying why it's wrong. Why are you afraid of other people's opinions? Letting everyone say what they think is pro town, lack of information is pro mafia.

No, it let's you hide behind other people's opinions. If McFox wants to tell you that answering things addressed to other people is a good protown move, then he's lying and should be lynched.

I apologise for sleeping and so 'hiding behind McFox'.

That's the problem. He didn't give you a chance to respond first.

You just don't understand do you, McFox is not protecting me in his posts (we'll let other people draw their conclusions as opposed to accepting what you say) he is attacking you. Your posts are narrow, aggressive and scummy.

Okay,...

1.)Agressive =/= Scummy. It's the ONLY way to generate meaningful discussion and I'm getting tired of hearing that it is when I'm the first person to make a move.

2.) They aren't narrow. There's just nothing else to focus on. You point out to me another player other than myself who you think is scum and I'll give you my opinion. Every time.

3.) How exactly is it scummy? I want no one but Swiss to answer this **** question.

It's not a distancing effect then, is it? If things aren't taken seriously, why would my vote on him make us look like 'enemies'?

It wouldn't, it didn't.

That's why its a move typically made by new scum.

Your answer to kat's 110 about your conflicting claims doesn't wash with me.

Does that really matter? It has to go through everyone else and you're not giving any reason why you don't see it.

@ Ryker

Why are you trying to generate scum tells out of joke votes?

I didn't laugh, therefore they're obviously not joke votes.

I interpreted your vote on Swiss (that you followed up with by asking for a bandwagon) as the first serious vote in the thread. Swiss' responses seem more of a noobtell than anything to me (rich, coming from myself I know). Yet, you relentlessly feel the need to pursue a weak case, when there is still plenty of time (over a week).

I have no intention of lynching him long before deadline, and I've said that multiple times. You point out to me a better case and I will change my vote. At the moment, it's the best lead I have, so excuse me if I stick to trying to lynch scum.

Why do you feel such a strong need to pursue this, when no one else seems to agree with you?

There are 4 people who disagree with me and, IIRC, 2 who agree with me. And a couple who haven't posted opinions. Don't play that game.

Swiss beat me to the punch, but I believe McFox is not trying to defend him, as so much as to show why your case on Swiss is so weak. So you change your vote to him and because he disagrees with you. McFox has you backed into a corner, so your way out is straight through him. Nice.[/QUOTE[

See response to Swiss. McFox was already on my list. Changing suspects after they say something that puts them higher on your list is not a scumtell.

Translation: If I'm starting a bandwagon on a new player, don't try to help them at all. That way, new players can fall into my traps. Oh, and if you point out the flaws in my case, all you're doing is losing the game for the Town

Derp derp derp. If they're so obvious, what is to inhibit Swiss?

Remember that this is a newbie game and we're here to teach newbies how to play mafia.

Not coddle them. I'm not going to treat them as if they can't defend themselves. I'm also still a player and I want to win.

Translation: "Ryker freaks out when accused of OMGUS."

McFox. You and I both know that it wasn't OMGUS. I stated very clearly that I don't like you responding to a case before the suspect. You can seriously go get hit by a bus if you want to keep that **** up.

This is the point you keep missing. By not explaining anything about RVS, this is exactly the message you gave to the new players, whether it was intentional or not.

Nope.

What you call "what I could get away with" I call "the root of the problem so why bother with the fluff?" And as Kat handely showed (some more), your case is weaksauce.

No johns. You try your best to save your scummate from having to answer. That isn't protown and you know it. It's also why I'm willing to lynch you first. If I'm wrong, I don't have to listen to an IC misdirecting people.

That's not how cross-examinations work. Not that that wasn't super-intimidating though, I'm really dreading it.

You use your cross-examination to try and, first and foremost, cover the damage done by the first lawyer through the witness. This is a little more direct.

 

[Swiss]

Okay,...

1.)Agressive =/= Scummy. It's the ONLY way to generate meaningful discussion and I'm getting tired of hearing that it is when I'm the first person to make a move.

2.) They aren't narrow. There's just nothing else to focus on. You point out to me another player other than myself who you think is scum and I'll give you my opinion. Every time.

3.) How exactly is it scummy? I want no one but Swiss to answer this **** question.

"narrow, aggressive scummy posts" (sic)


You say you aren't tunnelling, yet you completely disregard or try to smack down any reasons I give for pretty much anything I do. You refer to me as scum all the time, and McFox as my scum buddy. In day 1, merely hours in you post as if you are convinced of my alignment and attempt to get everyone voting for me. Please, explain how this is open minded, logical play well suited to helping out the town. You could have questioned many people, and waited for someone to make a mistake or say something stupid, but instead you concentrate your efforts and attempt to distort the entire thread toward me. This means any scum (maybe in the what, 5/6 people? yet to talk much) can easily sit back and stay safe.

It's a ****ed-if-you-do/don't scenario. It looks like you're forcing scumtells out of this information - this is a near-case of tunnelling ol'chum!

You are GIVING the scum the perfect RVS; narrow, confined to a few people and fuelled by suspicion as opposed to information (don't try and pretend your case against me is anything other than a farce).


What you have done is beneficial to the mafia, please explain how you are helping town by helping the mafia.

There are 4 people who disagree with me and, IIRC, 2 who agree with me.

The closest anyone has come to saying they agree with you is

your argument does have some merit. Seems to me that some of it is grasping straws.

If you take that as an 'agreement' you are more fanatical than I thought.

 

[McFox]

McFox. You and I both know that it wasn't OMGUS. I stated very clearly that I don't like you responding to a case before the suspect. You can seriously go get hit by a bus if you want to keep that **** up.

I can tell that your points have more merit than mine through your continued use of asterisks. Everyone knows that in a debate, the guy who curses the most is clearly winning.

No johns. You try your best to save your scummate from having to answer.

This isn't even close to what you quoted me as saying was referring to. It's like you just picked a random sentence that I posted and then went off on a tangent about defending Swiss (again).

It's also why I'm willing to lynch you first. If I'm wrong, I don't have to listen to an IC misdirecting people.

Odd how you can read my mind and still be so wrong about me.