Newbie Mafia 3 | Jungle Republic | Ovah. Who won?

[DtJ Hilt]

Frozen, I asked a question earlier and didn't really get an answer. In the beginning, your only posts were joke votes, helping out the new players with terms and how not to play, and agreeing with other's points that they make (tandora on eric, for example). I thus asked if there were people you had mentionable suspicions on, since your previous votes have all been bandwagons, in my eyes.

You didn't answer my question, but instead commented on Cello's point directed towards delvro, voting for Delvro in the process, then falling back to the side lines.

I feel you were doing just enough to get by and haven't changed too much. So, until I see otherwise, vote: frozenflame.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

4th Vote Count

----------

Xiivi (1) - Tom
Mayling (1) - Ronike
-Hilt- (3) - Mister Eric, Xiivi, Tandora
Delvro (3) - Sold2, Cello_Marl, frozenflame751
Sold2 (1) - Mayling
frozenflame751 (1) - -Hilt-

Not voting (2): soaring-raptor-blast, Delvro

----------

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

Tom has been prodded. Again.

 

[DtJ S2n]

Mayling, may I ask exactly what I'm defending myself against? I want to prevent another misunderstanding.

And Delvro, who do you classify as a lurker? Only person I see is Tom, who is inactive. It'd be much better for the mod to replace Tom, or to simply wait for him to get back from the moon, instead of lynching him or modkilling.

 

[Delvro]

Sorry, I was thinking about Tom, I forgot that he was inactive.

However, there's also Frozenflame, who is "active lurking". Of course he didn't right out and say it, but at the moment he just seems to be goofing off, making random votes, and going with the flow. I think now is a good time to put some pressure on him.

VOTE FROZENFLAME

I'm just going to right out and say that I have no idea what to think about Ronike anymore. Pressure is definitely good... but there's a point where it just turns into self-justification, berating, and can lead to mislynches. I think.... I don't know. Maybe day 2 will give some insight. I don't think I'm going to pursue this trail anymore on Day 1.

 

[Cello_Marl]

FoS: Ronike

Your feelings about Mayling are strong enough for you to remove the pressure vote you placed on Eric?

@Xivii: Yes. I see pressure votes as being less important than voting for someone I would like to see lynched. Editing posts to emit important info is something extremely scummy in my eyes, one of te scummiest things a player can do.

Honestly, I've had enough of this. I'd vote for you, but you've already got a considerable wagon going, so instead I'll give you one more chance to convince me not to vote you. Answer some of these questions and the HOW question why don't you?

...there is a difference between hammering someone who everyone genuinely wants lynched because they are scummy, and lynching someone who is L-1 from a pressure wagon or a joke wagon.

As for why I want to vote for him, like FF has said, votes can be used for more than just getting someone lynched. I want to put pressure on him to answer the question of who to do it SPECIFICALLY (thusfar he has answered a general way to do it) or realize that differentiating (tho ideal) is next to impossible.

You've said why you want to vote for Delvro. But, why should you be afraid to actually vote for someone you think should be lynched, or pressured? He was currently at L-4, so there's no danger of a quick hammer (though if it DID occur, that would make for interesting excuse making on Day 2). If it's because you don't want to "take away" from your suspicions of Mayling, just say so. If it's because you want to do more information gathering for the rest of the game, just say so. But to have driven so hard only to go 'full stop' and only issue challenges just seems like you just don't want to associate yourself with his lynch.

Suddenly, Delvro defends me and a bandwagon lurched onto him?

Furthermore, I don't see how it was an unprovoked response

You{Sold2}, on the other hand, are quite clearly defending Ronike,
and I would like to ask you why. Can't he defend himself?

Somehow, I missed that S2 had actually voted for Delvro. I had thought it was just a question instead of an actual vote.
I wasn't voting for Delvro based on the direct case of his defending you.
It was because he claimed he'd defend anyone else in the same way, and because he tried to turn the tables on S2 by equating
their situations. Pages long argument versus single paragraph. I don't see what S2 said as "clearly defending" someone, although whether it's uncharacteristic of his personality or not is another story.

i'll be honest here....I JUST DONT KNOW WHERE THIS COMING FROM {Cello's 'riding the wolf' comments}.

What I meant by "riding the wolf thing pretty hard" was in reference to a post Hilt had made.
Here's the full version. I had omitted two parts of it when I made my last post.

Focusing too much on who's a wolf or mafia, especially on Day 1, is going to be extremely hard to do without mass amounts of WIFOM, and will only make you look like Mafia. After all, Mafia will be actively trying to get rid of the wolves, as they pose more of a threat to them than town does.

You can't deny Delvro was talking about wolves for...well, pretty much the whole game.
I thought Hilt's point was understated and that it didn't get enough attention,
especially since I agree with the first part.

Alright, so something I noticed out of these posts is that S2 was similarly being lurky/inactive/whatever you wanna call it, like Eric was. S2 even said "I'll tell you guys when I notice something."

I just assumed Sold2 was trying to avoid being prodded. I think what got Tandora and Ronike's attention concerning Mister Eric was the fact he put two posts, which would normally indicate he was trying to do 'something', whatever it might have been.

Do with you want with the typo. But I'm not the only person to have done something like this. You yourself point out Xiivii's excessive usage of the word "wolf" rather than "scum", and he has yet to respond to it. However, I don't deny the possibility that you are right.

An inflexible mind would only be hurtful. I saw something that I thought had the potential to be signifigant. If I die, then I no longer have the opportunity to state, or remind people of, these little things. It's fine if he doesn't respond to it immediately; I may have been right about him, or I may be wrong.
But it's still something that he has done, has said, put in writing, that he cannot unsay. It's there for us to use as proof, whether we think it's against him or for him.
I'm willing to drop my case against Xiivi for now, because someone else seemed acting in a more suspicious manner.

Oh, that reminds me.

And also please please don't point out that someone might be seer. You're just asking to get that person nightkilled. ;___;

If someone is suspected seer, chances are they will die. We have no doctor. And if they don't die, that's probably because they are mafia.

Was your use of "mafia" at the end of the sentence a typo, too?
After all, I doubt the wolves would know by instinct who's a seer and who's mafia,
although the person that is being suspected would certainly know.

Why would the wolves not kill someone even suspected as seer again?

You seem to be digging quite hard to question small things. Not sure what your motivation is in throwing so much doubt on players is.

As has been mentioned in various ways, we don't know each other here very well across the IC/Newbie divide. Yours and others previous actions are all that we have to use to help us evaluate our current actions. Bringing up your mod attitude and player attitude was to elicit a response we can evaluate, and a genuine curiosity in what I thought was a conflicting viewpoint.

Mayling, may I ask exactly what I'm defending myself against? I want to prevent another misunderstanding.

I got a really bad vibe off of this the first time I read it.
At first, I thought it was a scum trying to figure out exactly what May was getting at so he
doesn't come off as defensive about an unrelated subject.
But, overall, another townie misunderstanding would be really bad.

I'm still inclined toward my initial reaction, but I don't know if it's worth it if I'm wrong.

 

[soaring-raptor-blast]

A current thought process I noticed is that the newer players (tandora, raptor, eric)

umm... mayling, I've actually been playing just as long as you have (granted I'm not nearly as good at it) but still... I'm not THAT new

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I find it extremely ironic that people have accused me of not legitimitely scum hunting when quite literally almost all of page 5 was a ****storm of "NO U" and discussion of what constitutes a personal attack and what doesn't.

That is not scumhunting. That is people tunnelvisioning over trivial BS and agonizing over how people express themselves. Grow up people.

No one has any right to tell anyone in this game how they can or cannot express themselves, barring extreme profanity or viscious personal insults. NO ONE in this game has done anything to that extreme. Ronike can be sarcastic if he wants. If little things like "ugh" and similar form of expression are bothering you AS TEXT IN A FORUM GAME, then you seriously need to reconsider your emotional stability. If you can't handle something as harmless and innocuous as that, perhaps the internet just isn't for you.

But yeah, it's time to leave the whole "personal attack" question behind and move on. People are just getting too caught up in it and it gives people and excuse to make lengthy posts that have little to no pertinent argumentation to the actual game of mafia. It devolves the game to literally debating etiquette.

Anyway, to address concerns about me that have been brought up:

Frozen, I asked a question earlier and didn't really get an answer. In the beginning, your only posts were joke votes, helping out the new players with terms and how not to play, and agreeing with other's points that they make (tandora on eric, for example). I thus asked if there were people you had mentionable suspicions on, since your previous votes have all been bandwagons, in my eyes.

You didn't answer my question, but instead commented on Cello's point directed towards delvro, voting for Delvro in the process, then falling back to the side lines.

I feel you were doing just enough to get by and haven't changed too much. So, until I see otherwise, vote: frozenflame.

This is a joke right? You asked me who I was suspicious off, and then proceed to dismiss my post about Delvro and Cello? I'm sorry, do you need me to write you a personal letter with a nice formatted excel spread sheet with every player's suspicion ranking in numerical order inside, signed and dated by me, to answer your petty question? You've no right to accuse me of joking around when all you've done is asked pointless questions FROM THE SIDELINES.

If I agree with someone's logic then of course I'm going to agree with them. Is it really that unheard of for two people to see eye to eye when interpreting someone else's actions? This is the case with my vote on Delvro. Furthermore, you seem to have little to no comprehension of what a bandwagon vote is. Bandwagonning is just voting someone with no explanation, just for the sake of voting along with everyone else. To accuse me of bandwagonning in RVS as being scummy would be absolutely absurd, and to accuse my concurrence with Cello about Delvro as bandwagonning equally so. Why don't you take a look at what you've done and try to put pieces together and scum hunt as opposed to sitting on the sidelines, asking petty questions, and putting together shoddy, whimsical cases against people you clearly deem "easy" targets.

Sorry, I was thinking about Tom, I forgot that he was inactive.

However, there's also Frozenflame, who is "active lurking". Of course he didn't right out and say it, but at the moment he just seems to be goofing off, making random votes, and going with the flow. I think now is a good time to put some pressure on him.

VOTE FROZENFLAME

I'm just going to right out and say that I have no idea what to think about Ronike anymore. Pressure is definitely good... but there's a point where it just turns into self-justification, berating, and can lead to mislynches. I think.... I don't know. Maybe day 2 will give some insight. I don't think I'm going to pursue this trail anymore on Day 1.

Interesting how Delvro can concur with -Hilt- and not get accused of bandwagonning by him like I was. I can definitely see these two as a scum pairing, or perhaps werewolf/mafia playing off one another. Also, notice Delvros resigned Day 1 attitude. Gives me bad vibes of a "**** this argument is too confusing, let's dismiss it, say we've nothing left to accomplish today, and hope the town resigns and hops on an easy bandwagon for a quick day 1" mentality.

I'll keep my vote on Delvro for now but -Hilt- seems like an equitably good play now.

 

[Xiivi]

Mod: Requesting Tom be considered for replacement. We're halfway through Day 1 without anything from him. So it's probably better to replace someone new into the game sooner than later. Tom essentially wasn't present all of Day 1 in wonderland mafia, and I'd rather not see it happen in this game too. I think he can replaced by any player, new or experienced. It's clear everyone here is simply new to SWF Mafia instead of mafia in general; so I doubt having 4 dGamers is as crucial as having a full roster of 12 active players.

------

You guys are beginning to get lost in your attacks against one another, going point for point against one another with very little backing down. Why do I say you're getting lost in it all? Because no one seemed to notice that I just went without posting for 3 days after being quite active. Notice how quickly I blended into the background? That is why lurking can be a powerful scum tactic. (I wasn't lurking though, I just flat out wasn't paying attention to this game with wonderland mafia finishing Day 1 and anime mafia being dead and inactive. I remembered I still needed to play this game when I saw I had a prod warning in anime mafia.) Disappearing from the main fray, then coming back in and sidelining every now and then makes it very easy to get through early days. It becomes easier when people draw themselves into very long-winded arguments. Being concise at times is sometimes better than being lengthy, although there is a balance needed.

Hey Cello!

I realize that some of my responses are to somewhat older comments, but I wished to address some of the points made.



There was nothing I saw concerning you that was concrete. But, as an example:

FrozenFlame has modded two games here; Trigun Mafia and Bad Idea.
In Bad Idea, he only wanted people with at least two games worth of experience.
This is completely understandable, considering the content of the game. However,
it does also imply that he would prefer committed players, i.e. ones that stuck around until the end; Ones that are committed.
In Trigun, he much more explicitly stated that he didn't want people who couldn't commit.
To this end, he states:



Yet, in this game:



The reason I'm posting examples from games in which he modded is that it offers a clear and unbiased view of his opinions. He clearly does not appreciate inactives who may cause a game to collapse. Yet, here he suggests that removing lurkers may be unhealthy for this game.
I have to wonder what the reason for this is.
It may very well be to clog up the game with other people that he can easily thrust suspicion onto.



You are right, of course. You would have plenty of time to think about your plan of action before committing to it.



I was unconsciously thinking, "Something to actually pick apart." At this point, these pressure votes are helping to bring people out from the shadows, but we should all make sure we receive responses that satisfy any questions, concerns or complaints each of us have. I think we should start pursuing these much more assertively, by group voting to L-2 or L-3 for each person. Going down the list as the mod has it:

I'm sure Tom's vote on Xiivi isn't serious, and Xiivi's responses address any major concerns I had, so we can skip him, if there are no objections.

Mister Eric's lack of a vote and style were explained, sort of, but I don't know if anyone else had anything else they wanted him to say. I'm still a little curious about that little rhyme, but I guess it's not that substantial.

The votes for Hilt were the most numerous, but they were mostly based on his not speaking much. He brings up a good point:



Delvro's riding the wolf thing pretty hard in his conversations with Ronike. Actually, I've been doing it myself, too, but I'll admit, in hindsight, my wolf insinuations against Xiivi were a bit farfetched. About Delvro's suggestion that we'll be able to distinguish the types of scum; how could we go about that?
We certainly don't have an "ironclad" method of doing so, but their choice of nightkills will be of use in that determination. Will they kill the experienced players because they can guide town toward effective scum hunting? Will they go for lurkers? If I were one, I'd go for the talkative experienced players. In any event, unless we lynch one of them for some reason, we'll have at least 3 IC players left. Unless they are ALL mafia, then we'll have at least one person who can inform us of important parts of the others' playstyles. Even then, if they were all mafia, they'd still help us get wolves.

Ronike, Mayling, and Delvro are providing ample information. About Delvro at least.

I think we've done all we really can by pressuring those that are active.

In other words, we should move on to Tom or Raptor, since S2 has joined us.



I don't think he's trusting of her rolewise, as much as getting a little riled up.
It's Greg. It's the way he is, not the way he plays.



You're coming off as taking that a bit hard, Greg.
Seeming emotional when you make your vote will just take credence away from your
reasoning. Is there anything else you can offer other than this "hounding" of May?








This is a really unprovoked response. In addition to the fact that I think you are lying about defending anyone else with such tenacity, or at least mistaken, I think you're overreacting to a simple question. He didn't even vote for you.



This typo, which I do believe it was, just implies that you were too heated to re-examine your post properly. You didn't properly cover your tracks; Are you suggesting we should just let that go? Even if you are town, lynching you now will whip the rest of us into shape, and prevent a mislynch at a crucial time.

I'm going to go ahead and vote for Delvro, but we do have 10 more days to gather information if we want to, although it may be wiser to think of it as 6 or 7 so we don't accidently go over time. If most of you think we should pressure Tom and Raptor before we conclude the day, we should. I think it's a good idea.

Vote: Delvro

You've said why you want to vote for Delvro. But, why should you be afraid to actually vote for someone you think should be lynched, or pressured? He was currently at L-4, so there's no danger of a quick hammer (though if it DID occur, that would make for interesting excuse making on Day 2). If it's because you don't want to "take away" from your suspicions of Mayling, just say so. If it's because you want to do more information gathering for the rest of the game, just say so. But to have driven so hard only to go 'full stop' and only issue challenges just seems like you just don't want to associate yourself with his lynch.







Somehow, I missed that S2 had actually voted for Delvro. I had thought it was just a question instead of an actual vote.
I wasn't voting for Delvro based on the direct case of his defending you.
It was because he claimed he'd defend anyone else in the same way, and because he tried to turn the tables on S2 by equating
their situations. Pages long argument versus single paragraph. I don't see what S2 said as "clearly defending" someone, although whether it's uncharacteristic of his personality or not is another story.



What I meant by "riding the wolf thing pretty hard" was in reference to a post Hilt had made.
Here's the full version. I had omitted two parts of it when I made my last post.



You can't deny Delvro was talking about wolves for...well, pretty much the whole game.
I thought Hilt's point was understated and that it didn't get enough attention,
especially since I agree with the first part.



I just assumed Sold2 was trying to avoid being prodded. I think what got Tandora and Ronike's attention concerning Mister Eric was the fact he put two posts, which would normally indicate he was trying to do 'something', whatever it might have been.



An inflexible mind would only be hurtful. I saw something that I thought had the potential to be signifigant. If I die, then I no longer have the opportunity to state, or remind people of, these little things. It's fine if he doesn't respond to it immediately; I may have been right about him, or I may be wrong.
But it's still something that he has done, has said, put in writing, that he cannot unsay. It's there for us to use as proof, whether we think it's against him or for him.
I'm willing to drop my case against Xiivi for now, because someone else seemed acting in a more suspicious manner.

Oh, that reminds me.



Was your use of "mafia" at the end of the sentence a typo, too?
After all, I doubt the wolves would know by instinct who's a seer and who's mafia,
although the person that is being suspected would certainly know.

Why would the wolves not kill someone even suspected as seer again?



As has been mentioned in various ways, we don't know each other here very well across the IC/Newbie divide. Yours and others previous actions are all that we have to use to help us evaluate our current actions. Bringing up your mod attitude and player attitude was to elicit a response we can evaluate, and a genuine curiosity in what I thought was a conflicting viewpoint.



I got a really bad vibe off of this the first time I read it.
At first, I thought it was a scum trying to figure out exactly what May was getting at so he
doesn't come off as defensive about an unrelated subject.
But, overall, another townie misunderstanding would be really bad.

I'm still inclined toward my initial reaction, but I don't know if it's worth it if I'm wrong.

What's the deal bro? Trying to find a case on a townie to fall back on?

So let me get this straight.... people are voting me because I think that killing a wolf today is the town's best option? I'm sorry, but this confuses me.

I had it all planned out in my head... where, percentage wise, killing one werewolf, then killing ALL the mafia, and lastly killing the other werewolf provided the GREATEST chances for town winning, because you're optimizing the werewolf vs mafia portion of the game.

How can you tell if someone is wolf or mafia? I figured you could do it the same way you discriminate scum from town. Player reactions. Voting patterns. NIGHT KILLS.
I can understand why you guys think that it's impossible to tell, but frankly I think you're wrong. Sorry. Perhaps it's impossible to tell on Day 1 when there are no lynches or night kills to go off of. That's fine, instead we just hunt scum.



Like I said before, I think that Roniker was purposefully putting down the prospect of hunting down wolves in particular and just saying "Hey guys it doesn't matter what they are just get em all"... of course saying that sounds Mafia but it was a risk that I was willing to take. I really don't understand why nobody else sees it my way. I see NO REASON at all to believe that, on Day 1, killing a wolf would NOT be better than killing a Mafia. Like I said earlier, killing mafia is best once one of the wolves die, because every day the other wolf is feeling the pressure of being the last man standing, as well as the fact that wolves can kill mafia with night kills.



Huh? He DID vote for me. Anyway, perhaps my response was a little too heated. The reason for that is cause I feel that s2 is being a hypocrite -- he attacked me for defending Mayling (which I felt was more of an attack on Roniker), but at the same time he was defending Roniker with very little justification other than "hey Greg you're argument sucks". Which I don't think it does.




Do with you want with the typo. But I'm not the only person to have done something like this. You youself point out Xiivii's excessive usage of the word "wolf" rather than "scum", and he has yet to respond to it. However, I don't deny the possibility that you are right.

However, I think the real reason that me and Xiivi have made these typos is because I play a game called "mafia" all the time in which there are mafia and wolves do not exist. Perhaps Xiivi plays a game called "werewolf" in which the only anti-town group are wolves.

Hmm, let's look at my posts!

vote: mayling

she's a big bad werewolf

My joke vote in the RVS.

Hello, new players, welcome to the RVS. Please drop a vote for whatever random reason you please. Make sure you pay attention to the number of votes a player has and the number needed to lynch though! I won't forgive anyone for dropping a vote at L-1 (The number of votes required for a lynch [7] minus one [6]) and claiming they didn't realize it! Unless it's Mayling who we lynch. Feel free to drop some votes on her because she's a big bad werewolf.

Ronike mentioned Lynch All Liars. This is a good policy to enforce! However, Ronike actually lied in that post he made there. In FFVII mafia, he lied about his role! He knew he was lying! Yet he didn't vote himself. Thus it's plainly obvious he does not believe in LAL and was lying in that post as well. Feel free to drop your votes on him for this.

Finally we have Tom. Tom's vote is a good example of OMGUS. Once he saw that I had found out his werewolf partner Mayling and voted for her, he immediately took to the offense and voted me in return. Another great lynch candidate!

Here is a Glossary of mafia terms and abbreviations.

Don't be afraid to ask questions.

Continuing the jovial stuff in order to introduce terms into the game (but it's clear you guys aren't as 'newbie' as I thought).

Please explain to me what Mayling should be defending against.



Too Helpful, too townie same thing.



'Cause that's what she is.



So you're saying I'm a werewolf eh? That's what you're implying after all.



You get everyone to participate in the RVS until someone does something that draws attention. You build a case off of something small/quite possibly meaningless which pulls the group out of the RVS and into discussion. If people don't participate in the RVS the game could stall out because of it. Essentially you're helping to pull us out the RVS right now.



It's very easy for people to make a vote that is a hammer-vote and feign ignorance over the fact the person was at L-1. If you remind people, it prevents scum from making this ploy and getting away with it. Any reason you felt the need to make sure Tandora and raptor were labeled as new right now? After all, this is supposed to be a "newbie" game. Seems a bit like early buddying.



It's on the first page of the dGames forum here. I'd recommend you read through some of the completed games here if you're looking to find meta.



Of course it's OMGUS. I voted Tom's werewolf partner, and he responded by "Oh my god you suck for voting my werewolf partner. Vote: you" Just in better words.

Why are you bringing up bussing?

The games I've played with Tom are currently ongoing.

If you want meta, I'd suggest checking this forum here and reading through the games.

Now, the final question. Why no vote?



Going to buddy right back him, eh?



Why no vote?

vote: soaring-raptor-blast

Post for us, you're friend has already brought your name up afterall!

First time: Calling out what Cello implied.

Second time: Defending my joking with sarcastic/reaching reasoning. [Because you aren't getting a serious defense for a non-serious joke. That's just silly.]

If you notice, when making a serious point explaining the hammering situation, I use scum instead of werewolves. Because my use of werewolves was while I was joking.

It would be very easy to write off something suspicious/scummy they did as "Oh, well like I said before, they're the most new to the game. Can't fault them for that."



Where did Cello imply that it is lynch-worthy?

For those who agree about this whole "sub-conscious" thing and accusing someone of the alignment you are in the RVS:
The mafia faction can scumhunt by actively looking for werewolves.
The werewolf faction can scumhunt by actively looking for mafia.
It would make more sense from my eyes for one to consciously accuse someone of being the other faction if they are scum.

Regardless, do you have any backup to this subconscious theory?

If people really want to look into my random vote, I'll lay it out for you.
I scrolled up some from Marshy's daystart post. I saw Mayling's Pit avatar. That made me decide to pick her for my random vote. I thought of Tom's "Vote Hylian: He's Mafia" post in Grammys Mafia [can't show you guys since it's in a private forum] and essentially copied it. I don't see werewolf games often, and took the chance to call someone a big bad werewolf.

There you go, pull what you want from it. Just don't reach too much.

Keep in mind it's always easy to attack the most vocal players, since they are the ones who put themselves out there after all. Which is why not participating in part of the game, be it the RVS or the discussion process itself (lurking) is anti-town. If everyone simply sat back and waited for things to happen, then whoever takes the first step is the easiest to fault. Simply sitting back and waiting to place your vote on someone causes people to not get a good read on you and less likely to trust you.

What I'm getting at is:
Not participating in the RVS is simply waiting for others to do the work for you. If you are town you are simply sitting and waiting for scum to direct you. When everyone participates in the RVS, discussion does arise and things get serious faster without forcing a select few players into controlling a lot of the discussion by themselves. This makes it easy for them to suspect each other which is something scum would love to see. This is what makes active lurking scummy.

As for the comment about game flavour. This is a basic set-up with none. However there are many games we host here that do have flavour, and it is very important that people only claim their name/role/etc... when they absolutely have to (being at L-1, LyLo, etc...). If we all had names and corresponding roles, everyone claiming them would only benefit the scum. Scum would be able to lie and blend in with everyone else, while seeing the town's claims and getting a better judgment on who to kill at night as a potential powerrole. "This person claimed Tiki Tiki the Witch Doctor. They're probably the Seer. Let's nightkill them." See what I'm getting at?

Town should not rely on flavour/power roles/nightkills to do their scumhunting and instead do it the old fashioned way.

unvote: vote: mister eric

Let's get the ball rolling. Mister Eric, why do you make a post which makes it seem as if you're wanting to make a random vote (eenie meenie miney vote implies randomness from my view) and then proceed to not make one and explain that you don't like the RVS?

I talk about werewolves while discussing semantics and thought processes, as well as answering Cello's question (Something you said I didn't do Delvro. How's the skimming going bro?) In fact, for the reminder of the post, I use the catch-all of "scum" (which includes both mafia and wolves) to address the anti-town factions. Man, I really am obsessed with the wolves aren't I?

#138 ; #131 ; #128

Notice how in these posts my mind is completely set on werewolves and I mention them a lot and never refer to them as scum. Oh wait, nevermind, I actually was focused on finding scum the whole time and didn't mention werewolves!

Let's rephrase this as:
"Please explain the thought process behind distinguishing between wolf and mafia on Day 1."
and ask Delvro to answer.

Aw darn, I said wolf again. Looks like you've caught me.

However, you dear Delvro, have been discussing wolves quite a bit! Specifically mentioning how you really want to catch wolves instead of mafia!

Now that we've pinpointed me and my obsession (I mean, man, look how many times I've talked about werewolves in this post, woah!), let's go back to what I highlighted in read.

So let me get this straight.... people are voting me because I think that killing a wolf today is the town's best option? I'm sorry, but this confuses me.

I had it all planned out in my head... where, percentage wise, killing one werewolf, then killing ALL the mafia, and lastly killing the other werewolf provided the GREATEST chances for town winning, because you're optimizing the werewolf vs mafia portion of the game.

How can you tell if someone is wolf or mafia? I figured you could do it the same way you discriminate scum from town. Player reactions. Voting patterns. NIGHT KILLS.
I can understand why you guys think that it's impossible to tell, but frankly I think you're wrong. Sorry. Perhaps it's impossible to tell on Day 1 when there are no lynches or night kills to go off of. That's fine, instead we just hunt scum.



Like I said before, I think that Roniker was purposefully putting down the prospect of hunting down wolves in particular and just saying "Hey guys it doesn't matter what they are just get em all"... of course saying that sounds Mafia but it was a risk that I was willing to take. I really don't understand why nobody else sees it my way. I see NO REASON at all to believe that, on Day 1, killing a wolf would NOT be better than killing a Mafia. Like I said earlier, killing mafia is best once one of the wolves die, because every day the other wolf is feeling the pressure of being the last man standing, as well as the fact that wolves can kill mafia with night kills.



Huh? He DID vote for me. Anyway, perhaps my response was a little too heated. The reason for that is cause I feel that s2 is being a hypocrite -- he attacked me for defending Mayling (which I felt was more of an attack on Roniker), but at the same time he was defending Roniker with very little justification other than "hey Greg you're argument sucks". Which I don't think it does.




Do with you want with the typo. But I'm not the only person to have done something like this. You youself point out Xiivii's excessive usage of the word "wolf" rather than "scum", and he has yet to respond to it. However, I don't deny the possibility that you are right.

However, I think the real reason that me and Xiivi have made these typos is because I play a game called "mafia" all the time in which there are mafia and wolves do not exist. Perhaps Xiivi plays a game called "werewolf" in which the only anti-town group are wolves.

"Just because I made a slip doesn't mean you can interrogate me for it! (Yes we can.) Xiivi did it too and you mentioned it, and he was left completely speechless! (Actually not at all.) I think you're right about Xiivi but not me. (They'll never catch you now!)

However, Xiivi and I made these typos (You decided my posts were typos now?), was because I play 'mafia' and because Xiivi plays 'werewolf'. (Great conclusion there!)"

So once you are called out on something, you grasp for straws and attempt to push the focus on someone else. Without even checking if you were really right or not! (After all, you thought I didn't present a defense!) Seems like a scum tactic to me, don't you think? Wait, let me rephrase that as 'Seems like a wolf tactic to me, don't you think?' since that's all I understand in this game.

All right, I'm not sure how this turned from a simple suggestion of town strategy (in the long-run) into some kind of war.

Ronike (and I'm sorry about getting your name wrong before), I already said many particular ways in which we can catch a wolf red-handed. I also said that it may not be possible to do so on Day 1, in which case we just hunt for scum. In NO way am I purposefully trying to confuse people (honestly I don't see how my proposition is that confusing to begin with), nor am I saying that we will FOR SURE be able to detect a wolf (minus the seer but I don't really want the seer to get involved in this). After all... if we COULD... then wolves wouldn't have much of a chance now would they?

And also please please don't point out that someone might be seer. You're just asking to get that person nightkilled. ;___;

If someone is suspected seer, chances are they will die. We have no doctor. And if they don't die, that's probably because they are mafia.

Also, the above post is a booboo... Mayling left work and I hopped on and immediately jumped to the mafia thread without realizing the account was still on. My Bad.

But dearest Delvro, if your plans for finding wolves won't work on day one, what about your optimal strategy!

So let me get this straight.... people are voting me because I think that killing a wolf today is the town's best option? I'm sorry, but this confuses me.

I had it all planned out in my head... where, percentage wise, killing one werewolf, then killing ALL the mafia, and lastly killing the other werewolf provided the GREATEST chances for town winning, because you're optimizing the werewolf vs mafia portion of the game.

How can you tell if someone is wolf or mafia? I figured you could do it the same way you discriminate scum from town. Player reactions. Voting patterns. NIGHT KILLS.
I can understand why you guys think that it's impossible to tell, but frankly I think you're wrong. Sorry. Perhaps it's impossible to tell on Day 1 when there are no lynches or night kills to go off of. That's fine, instead we just hunt scum.



Like I said before, I think that Roniker was purposefully putting down the prospect of hunting down wolves in particular and just saying "Hey guys it doesn't matter what they are just get em all"... of course saying that sounds Mafia but it was a risk that I was willing to take. I really don't understand why nobody else sees it my way. I see NO REASON at all to believe that, on Day 1, killing a wolf would NOT be better than killing a Mafia. Like I said earlier, killing mafia is best once one of the wolves die, because every day the other wolf is feeling the pressure of being the last man standing, as well as the fact that wolves can kill mafia with night kills.



Huh? He DID vote for me. Anyway, perhaps my response was a little too heated. The reason for that is cause I feel that s2 is being a hypocrite -- he attacked me for defending Mayling (which I felt was more of an attack on Roniker), but at the same time he was defending Roniker with very little justification other than "hey Greg you're argument sucks". Which I don't think it does.




Do with you want with the typo. But I'm not the only person to have done something like this. You youself point out Xiivii's excessive usage of the word "wolf" rather than "scum", and he has yet to respond to it. However, I don't deny the possibility that you are right.

However, I think the real reason that me and Xiivi have made these typos is because I play a game called "mafia" all the time in which there are mafia and wolves do not exist. Perhaps Xiivi plays a game called "werewolf" in which the only anti-town group are wolves.

Seems all is lost, I suppose. ;_;

Also the points you brought up...

So let me get this straight.... people are voting me because I think that killing a wolf today is the town's best option? I'm sorry, but this confuses me.

I had it all planned out in my head... where, percentage wise, killing one werewolf, then killing ALL the mafia, and lastly killing the other werewolf provided the GREATEST chances for town winning, because you're optimizing the werewolf vs mafia portion of the game.

How can you tell if someone is wolf or mafia? I figured you could do it the same way you discriminate scum from town. Player reactions. Voting patterns. NIGHT KILLS.
I can understand why you guys think that it's impossible to tell, but frankly I think you're wrong. Sorry. Perhaps it's impossible to tell on Day 1 when there are no lynches or night kills to go off of. That's fine, instead we just hunt scum.



Like I said before, I think that Roniker was purposefully putting down the prospect of hunting down wolves in particular and just saying "Hey guys it doesn't matter what they are just get em all"... of course saying that sounds Mafia but it was a risk that I was willing to take. I really don't understand why nobody else sees it my way. I see NO REASON at all to believe that, on Day 1, killing a wolf would NOT be better than killing a Mafia. Like I said earlier, killing mafia is best once one of the wolves die, because every day the other wolf is feeling the pressure of being the last man standing, as well as the fact that wolves can kill mafia with night kills.



Huh? He DID vote for me. Anyway, perhaps my response was a little too heated. The reason for that is cause I feel that s2 is being a hypocrite -- he attacked me for defending Mayling (which I felt was more of an attack on Roniker), but at the same time he was defending Roniker with very little justification other than "hey Greg you're argument sucks". Which I don't think it does.




Do with you want with the typo. But I'm not the only person to have done something like this. You youself point out Xiivii's excessive usage of the word "wolf" rather than "scum", and he has yet to respond to it. However, I don't deny the possibility that you are right.

However, I think the real reason that me and Xiivi have made these typos is because I play a game called "mafia" all the time in which there are mafia and wolves do not exist. Perhaps Xiivi plays a game called "werewolf" in which the only anti-town group are wolves.

Delvro's guide to catching werewolves:
1: Player reactions.

"When someone mentions werewolves, they are most likely obsessed with them (Case: Xiivi), and thus are a werewolf."

[Give a more concrete reason as to what player reactions will distinguish between a "scummy" player, a "mafiay" player, and a "werewolfy" player. After all, if you can distinguish between "scummy" and "werewolfy" you should be able to know how to get "mafiay" too!]

2: Voting patterns.

"When a town is lynched, I bet you there were some werewolves involved!
When a mafia is lynched, I bet you there were some werewolves involved!
When a werewolf is lynched, I bet you there wasn't any bussing!"

[Voting patterns are always a good source for scum hunting. However this is only useful after one wolf flips and is only useful for finding the second wolf. (Since before then, both town and mafia can be wolf-hunting. Yet bussing can throw a wrench in this, and wolf are also capable of mafia-hunting. So it's possible for both factions to be "scum-hunting".) So overall, this isn't too helpful and doesn't make me believe we should be tunneling on finding wolves instead of finding scum in general as you want to suggest.]

3: NIGHT KILLS.

"Night kills is in CAPS because it is the most important and flawless way of finding wolves. The following thought will never cross the wolves' minds: "Man, X got into a huge confrontation with Y and pushed on Y hard. If we kill X, we can push for Y really easily." Or: "Cello said he'd kill a talkative experienced player. Let's kill one and then push him hard!"

[Using night kills for "wolf-hunting" is nothing more than chasing ghosts.]

I realize that some of my responses are to somewhat older comments, but I wished to address some of the points made.



There was nothing I saw concerning you that was concrete. But, as an example:

FrozenFlame has modded two games here; Trigun Mafia and Bad Idea.
In Bad Idea, he only wanted people with at least two games worth of experience.
This is completely understandable, considering the content of the game. However,
it does also imply that he would prefer committed players, i.e. ones that stuck around until the end; Ones that are committed.
In Trigun, he much more explicitly stated that he didn't want people who couldn't commit.
To this end, he states:



Yet, in this game:



The reason I'm posting examples from games in which he modded is that it offers a clear and unbiased view of his opinions. He clearly does not appreciate inactives who may cause a game to collapse. Yet, here he suggests that removing lurkers may be unhealthy for this game.
I have to wonder what the reason for this is.
It may very well be to clog up the game with other people that he can easily thrust suspicion onto.



You are right, of course. You would have plenty of time to think about your plan of action before committing to it.



I was unconsciously thinking, "Something to actually pick apart." At this point, these pressure votes are helping to bring people out from the shadows, but we should all make sure we receive responses that satisfy any questions, concerns or complaints each of us have. I think we should start pursuing these much more assertively, by group voting to L-2 or L-3 for each person. Going down the list as the mod has it:

I'm sure Tom's vote on Xiivi isn't serious, and Xiivi's responses address any major concerns I had, so we can skip him, if there are no objections.

Mister Eric's lack of a vote and style were explained, sort of, but I don't know if anyone else had anything else they wanted him to say. I'm still a little curious about that little rhyme, but I guess it's not that substantial.

The votes for Hilt were the most numerous, but they were mostly based on his not speaking much. He brings up a good point:



Delvro's riding the wolf thing pretty hard in his conversations with Ronike. Actually, I've been doing it myself, too, but I'll admit, in hindsight, my wolf insinuations against Xiivi were a bit farfetched. About Delvro's suggestion that we'll be able to distinguish the types of scum; how could we go about that?
We certainly don't have an "ironclad" method of doing so, but their choice of nightkills will be of use in that determination. Will they kill the experienced players because they can guide town toward effective scum hunting? Will they go for lurkers? If I were one, I'd go for the talkative experienced players. In any event, unless we lynch one of them for some reason, we'll have at least 3 IC players left. Unless they are ALL mafia, then we'll have at least one person who can inform us of important parts of the others' playstyles. Even then, if they were all mafia, they'd still help us get wolves.

Ronike, Mayling, and Delvro are providing ample information. About Delvro at least.

I think we've done all we really can by pressuring those that are active.

In other words, we should move on to Tom or Raptor, since S2 has joined us.



I don't think he's trusting of her rolewise, as much as getting a little riled up.
It's Greg. It's the way he is, not the way he plays.



You're coming off as taking that a bit hard, Greg.
Seeming emotional when you make your vote will just take credence away from your
reasoning. Is there anything else you can offer other than this "hounding" of May?








This is a really unprovoked response. In addition to the fact that I think you are lying about defending anyone else with such tenacity, or at least mistaken, I think you're overreacting to a simple question. He didn't even vote for you.



This typo, which I do believe it was, just implies that you were too heated to re-examine your post properly. You didn't properly cover your tracks; Are you suggesting we should just let that go? Even if you are town, lynching you now will whip the rest of us into shape, and prevent a mislynch at a crucial time.

I'm going to go ahead and vote for Delvro, but we do have 10 more days to gather information if we want to, although it may be wiser to think of it as 6 or 7 so we don't accidently go over time. If most of you think we should pressure Tom and Raptor before we conclude the day, we should. I think it's a good idea.

Vote: Delvro

That's where Cello threw that out.

All right, I'm not sure how this turned from a simple suggestion of town strategy (in the long-run) into some kind of war.

Ronike (and I'm sorry about getting your name wrong before), I already said many particular ways in which we can catch a wolf red-handed. I also said that it may not be possible to do so on Day 1, in which case we just hunt for scum. In NO way am I purposefully trying to confuse people (honestly I don't see how my proposition is that confusing to begin with), nor am I saying that we will FOR SURE be able to detect a wolf (minus the seer but I don't really want the seer to get involved in this). After all... if we COULD... then wolves wouldn't have much of a chance now would they?

And also please please don't point out that someone might be seer. You're just asking to get that person nightkilled. ;___;

If someone is suspected seer, chances are they will die. We have no doctor. And if they don't die, that's probably because they are mafia.

Also, the above post is a booboo... Mayling left work and I hopped on and immediately jumped to the mafia thread without realizing the account was still on. My Bad.

"Yep, only the seer can confirm wolf and non-wolf. But let's not talk about the seer.

Oh speaking of the seer, don't say that someone might be seer. They'll get killed.

Like really, if we think they're seer, they'll die.

But if we think they're seer and they don't die, then they're mafia.

Because we will all be communicating who we think is the seer in plan day just like I said we shouldn't. And then our suspected seer we're all talking about won't die and we have to lynch them.

Can you guys tell I really want to bring up the seer to get us talking about the role so it's easier for the scum to gauge reactions and figure out who the seer is?"

That's what I see there.

Someone stated earlier that Roniker tends to hunt aggressively for wolves. I'm beginning to think that this may have been a simple case of overzealousness. His OMGUS vote still makes me suspicous, but I'll unvote for now.

UNVOTE

Also, I think Xiivi is right... the group as a whole, myself included, are jumping down people's throats because there are only so many people posting. There are a fair amount of people lurking in corners at this point, and I'd really like to see those who have not contributed to do so.

"Oh dear, people are catching on to me! What do I fall back on!? Oh yeah, Xiivi said something about active players focusing too much on other active players and letting the inactive ones slip, let me use it and mention how I'm going to wait for inactive people to post so they cool down a bit."

-------
So after this post, I'm going to go ahead and vote: Delvro (lots of stuff), FoS: Cello (wishy-washy inconsistency).

If you're wondering why I did full-quotes instead of snippets of what mattered, it's because people have the tendency to cry when you cut out part of their post and attempt to discredit you because of it. Which is meh because I'd prefer to just edit out everything except what matters whether I'm scum or town, but I've been yelled about doing in while in both situations and have learned it's better to just not give people something meaningless to make a big deal out of. [Early this game Mayling botched a quote and put my name as the poster of the quote instead of someone else. However I realized it was just her learning multi-quoting and didn't hound on it being a scumtell much like Ronike did when she edited his post. Which spurred a very silly argument in my opinion. In fact, both Mayling and Ronike have more than double the posts in this thread than anyone else. Shut up you two.]

[URL="http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=37736"]Ronike[/URL]                   [URL="http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=37736&searchthreadid=255114"]34[/URL]                            
[URL="http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=134294"]Mayling[/URL]                   [URL="http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=134294&searchthreadid=255114"]31[/URL]                           
[URL="http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=160900"]Tandora[/URL]                   [URL="http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=160900&searchthreadid=255114"]14[/URL]                           
[URL="http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=45554"]Xiivi[/URL]                   [URL="http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=45554&searchthreadid=255114"]14[/URL]                            
[URL="http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=135593"]Mister Eric[/URL]                   [URL="http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=135593&searchthreadid=255114"]13[/URL]                            
[URL="http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=129294"]Delvro[/URL]                   [URL="http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=129294&searchthreadid=255114"]12[/URL]      
[URL="http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=35538"]Tom[/URL]                   [URL="http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=35538&searchthreadid=255114"]10[/URL]                            
[URL="http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=94662"]-Hilt-[/URL]                   [URL="http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=94662&searchthreadid=255114"]9[/URL]          
[URL="http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=20381"]frozenflame751[/URL]                   [URL="http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=20381&searchthreadid=255114"]8[/URL]                            
[URL="http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=160861"]soaring-raptor-blast[/URL]                   [URL="http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=160861&searchthreadid=255114"]7[/URL]                            
[URL="http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=160429"]Cello_Marl[/URL]                   [URL="http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=160429&searchthreadid=255114"]7[/URL]                            
[URL="http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=160424"]Sold2[/URL]                   [URL="http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=160424&searchthreadid=255114"]7[/URL]

Note that only 2 of Tom's posts in this thread were after the game started. Don't let the 10 fool you, he's really inactive. :/

Let's post this and hope formatting didn't go jank on me.

 

[Xiivi]

oh yeah, unvote: -hilt-o-whirl-

I'm so incompetent sometimes.

vote: delvro-bro

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Anyway, to address concerns about me that have been brought up:
This is a joke right? You asked me who I was suspicious off, and then proceed to dismiss my post about Delvro and Cello? I'm sorry, do you need me to write you a personal letter with a nice formatted excel spread sheet with every player's suspicion ranking in numerical order inside, signed and dated by me, to answer your petty question?

I wouldn't necessarily call my question "petty". From the way I saw it at the time, you basically just rephrased what someone else said and joined in voting for them. After reading back through the posts I see it isn't as much the case as I had originally thought, and yeah, the "no u" arguments that filled the thread earlier were really dumb. I think I was just frustrated that I asked you a question and, to me, it seemed as if you just ignored it, even though you were probably just answering it the way you naturally do.

You mentioned me targeting people, with shoddy logic, that I would consider to be "easy targets". Are you referring to yourself? Because I don't know why I would possibly consider you to be an "easy target". You're clearly a veteran in mafia, while this is a game where the majority of the players either haven't played too many mafia games or, well, just made an account prior to this game. I don't understand why you would accuse me of going after you as an easy target when I have several other players that I can focus my attention on that don't have as much experience as the DGamers. And yes, I have. I'm not just suspicious of you. I have a habit of not mentioning myself being suspicious of someone for a reason that has already been mentioned, or for a reason that's small. Mister Eric placing a vote, although having understandable reason, and then rarely showing up other than to say he hasn't had a reason to change it, I find suspicious. Delvro's bandwagon on yourself, as well as how hard he was pushing the wolf thing, and the whole dumb argument between him and ronike I find as almost enough reason to place a vote on him. Speaking of that, you mentioned how I didn't get onto him about that while I did for you for doing just about the same thing. Last weekend, Soldier 2 mentioned that the KY players would not be in here for the weekend. This is always the case for me. My Saturday, Friday evening, and oftentimes Sunday mornings are usually shot. I wasn't even able to comment on his vote before you got onto me for his bandwagon. But that's fine, seeing as how there were two days between it, I can understand your point.

Now, on to Delvro:

Personally I think s2 is scum if and only if Ronike is also scum.

Basing someone's innocence solely off of another person's innocence isn't smart. Just because S2 hasn't, in aim mafia, defended someone when he's scum and they're not, doesnt not mean he wont. Just because S2 has, in aim mafia, most of the time, or even always, defended his scum buddies, doesnt mean him defending scum, intentional or not, makes him scum. You're looking at his past patterns as an easy way out, and that can turn things against you very easily.

I think now is a good time to put some pressure on him.

VOTE FROZENFLAME

I put a vote on him and asked him a direct question. Putting one more vote on him, when discussion wasn't very active on him, isn't going to do much. It seems more to me like you're trying to back out of the ronike argument and use this to cover your tracks, in a way.

I'm just going to right out and say that I have no idea what to think about Ronike anymore. Pressure is definitely good... but there's a point where it just turns into self-justification, berating, and can lead to mislynches.

Wait. It's Day 1. The current ratio is I think.... I don't know. Maybe day 2 will give some insight. I don't think I'm going to pursue this trail anymore on Day 1. The current ratio is 7:3:2. Expecting there not to be a mislynch... lynches on day 1 rarely, from what I've seen, hit anti-town. Lynches on Day 1 do, however, provide plenty of information to go off of for the next day, of course, as do most lynches. I don't think you're pulling back from that argument because you don't want a mislynch, but rather because you realize you're not going to get the lynch and want to make it seem as if you're not too suspicious of him.

As for the whole "ugh" thing, I don't really care. Look at FrozenFlame's post directed to me. Almost all of it was basically "god **** you're an idiot, your arguments are dumb, your reasoning is stupid, just shut up." But oh well. That's how the game goes. I'm not expecting him to follow any rules when posting to me to keep my feelings from getting hurt.

To me, mafia is a game of lying, trickery, and to see who's the best polygraph.

In the first mafia game I played, I remember someone making a post that said "Mafia. The game where the biggest bully wins." And in a sense, that's how it is. I can understand annoyance from it, I'm just wanting give my opinion on the matter. I know certain players were prevented from joining, due to their playstyles, which is fine and completely understandable, however, for those that are already in the game, I'm not going to expect anyone to change their playstyle.

Xiivi, your post is really long and I don't have the time to read it right now lol. I'll read through it when I get back home and comment on it if there's anything I have to say. I'll also reread through the thread and make my decision on whether or not I'll be placing my vote on delvro.

 

[Tom]

I read and caught up with the game, and as I continued to evaluate it, I finally succumbed and realized that I really do have to withdraw.

If the sexy entity known as Tom has a weakness, it would be a excess of ambition. That is to say, I try to juggle way too much at once, and I'm always sticking my head in everything and trying to be involved in... everything. I have way too much on my plate right now and I have to cut things, and Newbie 3 has to be one of them.

I love you guys! I love my dGamers and I really do love the KY players. I think we can all get along just fine (yes, even after reading this game), I think you are all very promising, and I hope you all use this opportunity to finish this game and join a new one here at SWF.

That said, I do apologize to all of you, and to Marshy the mod, for stringing you all along. I really wanted to get back into this game but I just don't have the time. I should have replaced out a week ago and saved you all the waiting time.

If I were to leave with any opinions on the board, it would be:

unvote

keep Ronike and Mayling around. keep S2, Xiivi, Frozenflame, and Cello around but also evaluate everything that they say. I probably wouldn't endorse a lynch on any of those 6 players Day 1 or Day 2. Everyone else is... lynchable?

thanks, again, everyone.

*leaves, ashamed*

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Expect a replacement for Tom tomorrow. In the meantime:

5th Vote Count

----------

Mayling (1) - Ronike
-Hilt- (2) - Mister Eric, Tandora
Delvro (4) - Sold2, Cello_Marl, frozenflame751, Xiivi
Sold2 (1) - Mayling
frozenflame751 (2) - -Hilt-, Delvro

Not voting (2): soaring-raptor-blast, Tom

----------

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

 

[DtJ Hilt]

oh yeah, unvote

more from me tomorrow

 

[Ronike]

SOrry, my weekends tend to be shot too. At any rate, I'll eventually read through the ridiculously long posts, but for now, I think what Tom said is good, and I'm leaning towards a Delvro lynch ATM. Keep in mind I haven't really read up very well, but thats where Im leaning.

Unvote

 

[Cello_Marl]

First and foremost, I'll make my most important point. Tom's old role, and consequentially whomever takes over for him, is almost certainly a town role.

I make this assertion on the basis of Tom's inactivity. We all acknowledge that it truly was inactivity, and not simply lurking. In this scenario, I couldn't imagine the scum groups NOT wanting to coordinate their tactics, and would not allow a teammate to be so inactive for so long. Tom would have been removed long ago at the insistence of his mate(s), whether by PM to the mod or by public post, instead of being allowed to linger for a full week.

Finally we have Tom. Tom's vote is a good example of OMGUS.

That's not OMGUS. That's bandwagoning, and he stated as such himself.
This sounds more like you trying to use an easily exploitable and memorable term
to garner favor for your opinion.

Of course it's OMGUS. I voted Tom's werewolf partner, and he responded by "Oh my god you suck for voting my werewolf partner. Vote: you" Just in better words.

This quote is in relation to the times Xiivi said wolf.

First time: Calling out what Cello implied.

Second time: Defending my joking with sarcastic/reaching reasoning. [Because you aren't getting a serious defense for a non-serious joke. That's just silly.]

If you notice, when making a serious point explaining the hammering situation, I use scum instead of werewolves. Because my use of werewolves was while I was joking.

A good portion of the rest of his post focuses on making his using the word wolf as a joke.

It's interesting how Xiivi was trying to establish that he only uses wolf in a joking fashion, and any serious discussion from him is only spoken in terms of scum. If we simply accept that from him, then he can effectively stymie any attacks or notes that are associated with that topic, even if the associated topic was the actual point being made.

In this case, the point I was making about terminology. It doesn't matter what was the correct word (though I do think it was a bandwagon, or at least the start of one). By dismissing it in a casual way, and by making the focus of the conversation what the correct term was, he was able to stop a bandwagon from piling up on him. One that was probably just designed to elicit information. We'll never know what Tom was thinking though (unless he would like to say if it was for that purpose or just part of the RVS before he officially leaves).

In other words, if we accept that statement on it's face, all Xiivi has to do is start saying wolf and we'll ignore everything about it.

Despite that attempt, I think that forming bandwagon did it's job.

FoS: Xiivi

Xiivi did make a good point about blending though. Mister Eric, do you have any insights you'd like to make? Or are your posts which basically equate to "Ignore this whole post, I are sleepy..." enough?

Finally, I think we should we go ahead and lynch by Wednesday. I'd imagine most of us will be fairly inactive over Thanksgiving for various reasons, so we won't be doing much information gathering anyway, and we'll be playing right into what players like Delvro want us to do, i.e. cool off.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

mentosman8 replaces Tom. Say hi!

 

[mentosman8]

Posting to let everyone know I'm beginning my readthrough(onto page 3 at 40 per page), and will be posting my thoughts/opinions shortly. In the meantime, hi everyone

 

[Delvro]

Hi mentosman8! ^_^

First off, let me start by saying that Hilt, I'm letting the argument drop because I'm sick and tired of listen to people batter around about "personal attacks" and the constant repetition of arguments that I was experiencing with Ronike. In a word... it was simply silly. And you can't just lynch someone because of that.

Secondly Cello you are reading too much into people's posts. I think that Xiivi WAS joking and that he just used the term "wolf" because that is what he used to. I mean heck, joking is fun. You guys are taking this game way too seriously. Like really.

People like you and Xiivi went apenuts crazy when I used the term "mafia" instead of "scum". I thought that was hilarious.

Having said that, I'm super confident that Xiivi is scum. Why? Well, look at how he reacted, pretty much out of nowhere, to the whole situation.

Bunch of stuff

Translation-----
"In order to distance myself as much as possible from the "wolf vs mafia" thing, I'm going to post a HUGE attack on Delvro since he seems to be making the same mistake that I made, and that way it'll look like he's the scummy one instead of me. I'm gonna quote everything that Delvro has posted, and pick out one-liners that I can "loosely interpret" to support my WIFOMS and my self-justification arguments (rather than taking in Delvro's arguments as a whole)"

I'm sorry man but you made that way too easy. =P I can only think of ONE reason why you'd want to distance yourself from me SOOOO BADLY.

I'm very confident in this. I doubt I'll be changing my vote for the rest of the day.

VOTE XIIVI

 

[Xiivi]

Cello returns an FoS to my FoS of him.
Delvro returns a vote to my vote of him.

That's funny.

 

[Ronike]

So let me get this straight: you were too lazy to read Xivii's post, so skimmed through it for the general message and then tried to discredit it. Got it.

I seriously hope you are kidding, otherwise you just made our job even easier, Delvscum.

Vote: Delvro

 

[Delvro]

Cello returns an FoS to my FoS of him.
Delvro returns a vote to my vote of him.

That's funny.

So let me get this straight: you were too lazy to read Xivii's post, so skimmed through it for the general message and then tried to discredit it. Got it.

I seriously hope you are kidding, otherwise you just made our job even easier, Delvscum.

Vote: Delvro

Nope, I read it all. If you don't see that the entire purpose of his post is to distance himself me, then you are blind. Sorry.



I smell a team

awroooo

 

[mentosman8]

Ok, all read up and up to date on the game. First and foremost, I'm happy me and Tom seem to think alike. While he wasn't here for most of the game, the end of his last post I almost entirely agree with.

Now, as for my suspicions so far today, I would have to say I am currently agreeing with the Delvro wagon. Now, my main reason for this, is I noticed while reading through how much he was pushing an order to lynching. First and foremost, it is impossible to distinguish werewolf from mafia. All you can do is scumhunt and hope that you hit what you want to, and until we lynch a scum we can't use connections to determine who is aligned where. However, Delvro's insistence on his werewolf-all maf-werewolf made me start thinking: If he is mafia, this is the EXACT strategy he would want to push. Think about it:

Step 1: Lynch a werewolf. Obviously this does benefit town, getting rid of half the killing team. While it is impossible to do on purpose, it would definitely help. However, it also benefits mafia. Why? Because this obviously doesn't hurt their numbers, and while it is a risk of getting hit by a night-kill, it gives scum the extra kill they have in normal games if they aren't hit. It is a risk to take, but potentially extremely beneficial.

Step 2: Lynch all scum. Now here's where it becomes a good mafia ploy. With the werewolf being lynched D1, it leaves 11 players going into night. If mafia is not hit(which odds would indicate a townie hit), that brings it down to 10 by the next day. Now, if the second werewolf were lynched on the next day, that brings it to 9, and it has to then go through D3(8), D4(7), and D5(6) to reach a win condition. And that's if there isn't a single mafia lynch any of those days. Obviously, this gives town a lot of time to find the scum. However, if there were a way to purposely focus on mafia and we did so, they could push mislynches. By taking one werewolf out early, it would remove the group mentality from them and force them to think on their own. With some luck from the night kill, and a successful mislynch push, this puts us at 7 total, 3 mafia, 3 town, one wolf. In this situation, the game would be in LYLO(lynch scum or lose in case anyone doesn't know) by D3, obviously a MUCH worse situation for town. At this point one more mislynch forced would end the game with mafia making up half the town with town roles still alive. Obviously, this takes away a LOT of towns thinking time if werewolves don't kill the mafia.

On top of this, if that one mislynch and non-mafia nightkill were to occur, town would be in terrible shape. lets say D3 hits, 7 total left, 3 mafia, 3 town, 1 wolf. Mafia lynched(only way to keep game going) 2v3v1. If the wolf hits town again, it puts town in a terrible position. 2v2v1 on D4, mafia lynch needed to continue brings it to 1v2v1, and the only way town can win is with werewolf shooting mafia. That would be on D4. D5 would either be 0v2v1 or 1v1v1, one of which town is guaranteed loss. As you can see, this strategy leads to town having no control over who wins, as without werewolf killing mafia, it hits an un-winnable point even if town plays perfectly.

Step 3: Lynch the other werewolf. This is required even if it was a mafia ploy. If all mafia were lynched, this would be the obvious town thing to want, and the mafia would be eliminated if it got here, so a mafioso suggesting it would be moot, as if it got there their game was over anyway.

As it stands, it is a TERRIBLE town idea to try for a wolf-all maf-wolf pattern(impossible anyway), as one mislynch/mis-shot pretty much takes everything out of towns hands. As a whole, the idea seems scummy, not because it's impossible to differentiate, but because as the numbers break down town begins to rely on the wolf's kill to have any shot at winning after one mislynch on D2 if the wolves shoot town.

I don't want to put Delv at L-1 just yet, seeing as theres still 5 days till the deadline, but he is definitely my top suspect so far.

 

[Delvro]

Dang. Mentosman makes some really good arguments against me. For the first time, I have a case on me from someone who I don't think is scummy. Anyway, I think it's high time for me to come clean.

I am not wolf aligned, nor am I town aligned. Don't think that because I am saying this that I'm giving up. What I am doing is giving the town information that will help towards the possible lynch of a wolf, while at the same time helping the town get a guaranteed lynch on mafia (myself) at a later date.

Basically it helps both the town and the mafia at the cost of wolves. And being a math major, I have the numbers prepared for you guys.

Let's say that the game comes down to 4v1v1. At this point, the town is in Lynch or Lose. Instead of shooting in the dark (with a 1/3 chance of hitting), it becomes 100%. I will die. Then, the town can pull a no lynch and end up with a 50/50, which is a lot better than the 1/3 chance the town started with.

Or let's say it's 3 townies, 2 mafia. Normally, that's lylo for town. But since you have a 100% chance of hitting me, it becomes 3v1, which is NOT lylo since mafia cannot kill! Town's chance of winning increases DRAMATICALLY in this case. (from 10% to 58%)

Let's take one last case, where we screw up and don't lynch any wolves at all. 3 Townies, 1 Mafia, 2 wolves. You say you have a 50% chance of hitting the right target? Wrong. If you lynch mafia, the town automatically loses. At this point, you MUST lynch a wolf, or else die. What you can do is ignore me (the confirmed mafia) and target me once the wolves are dead.

These are examples of worst case scenarios, but it in fact turns out that nearly every imaginable situation turns out this way, in the endgame. Town and Mafia's chances of winning go up, Wolf's chances of winning go down.

Also, don't forget that there are still 4 scum remaining. If you catch one of my scummates or a wolf, it's like catching two birds with one lynch! It goes from 7v3v2 to 7v2v1 or 7v1v2. At this point, the game would clearly be HEAViLY in favor of town.

In addition to all this is the bonus of allowing the seer to inspect someone else rather than wasting it on me.

At this point I feel that a combination of 2 of Xiivi, Frozenflames, and s2 are wolves.

Wolves are going to hate me so bad =P
let the fun begin!!!

 

[Delvro]

Oh, and my vote stays on Xiivi.

Awrooooo awrooooo!!

 

[soaring-raptor-blast]

oh GOD! .... well...that was shocking....
I've certainly never seen that before. O_o

I think I'm just gonna pretend I didn't read the better part of your last post, and take your words with a grain of salt... so other than

VOTE: DELVRO!!!!!!!!!!!

I really dont wanna take much from that other than

At this point I feel that a combination of 2 of Xiivi, Frozenflames, and s2 are wolves.

Wolves are going to hate me so bad =P
let the fun begin!!!

I guess this means S2, Xiivi, and frozenflame arent mafia? maybe thats just what greg wants us to think but that would be some hardcore mindgaming...

from that I think I got a good educated guess at the remaining mafia members now... so... just for future reference, I now suspect :

FOS: mayling and tandora

as two other possible mafia.

I dont have an arguement for this really, it's just what I inferred from their interactions with greg...

I'm still at a loss for words...

 

[mentosman8]

O.o That must be a record on fewest posts I've had to make to get a scum to claimXD Anyway, he's at L-1 right now, and obviously our lynch for the day(don't let him fool you into keeping him alive, it only hurts us), but I think we should wait to hear everyone's opinions before we hammer. I'd like to hear from everyone and all before we go to night for sure.

 

[Ronike]

HAMMER DAT *****! After everyone talks that is.

 

[Mister Eric]

Xiivi did make a good point about blending though. Mister Eric, do you have any insights you'd like to make? Or are your posts which basically equate to "Ignore this whole post, I are sleepy..." enough?

yes, but can it please wait until i get back home? today's my last day at college before the Thanksgiving break and it's been hell lately. for now, I've just poked my head in to see if anything big has happened but I haven't read the posts thoroughly yet. all I see is that Delvro is on the verge of being lynched. I'd like to be able to read everyone's reasoning on that before he gets the noose (if he does) but I won't get the chance to till tonight or tomorrow morning (when i get home and get everything unpacked). then I'll be home and stress-free =]

 

[Mayling]

*leaves, ashamed*

I hate Tom.

I make this assertion on the basis of Tom's inactivity. We all acknowledge that it truly was inactivity, and not simply lurking. In this scenario, I couldn't imagine the scum groups NOT wanting to coordinate their tactics, and would not allow a teammate to be so inactive for so long. Tom would have been removed long ago at the insistence of his mate(s), whether by PM to the mod or by public post, instead of being allowed to linger for a full week.

My initial inclinations was that Tom was a townie... However, not based on what you said. but based on his post. At first I thought your post made a lot of sense... but then I was thinking... well if he has partners and Tom is inactive... it will only help to distance them.

I guess this means S2, Xiivi, and frozenflame arent mafia? maybe thats just what greg wants us to think but that would be some hardcore mindgaming...

from that I think I got a good educated guess at the remaining mafia members now... so... just for future reference, I now suspect :

FOS: mayling and tandora

as two other possible mafia.

I dont have an arguement for this really, it's just what I inferred from their interactions with greg...

I'm still at a loss for words...

I understand completely why I would be a suspect. Your accusation on Tandora needs justification, however. How did she interact with Greg specifically to link her as his mafia buddy?

I think Greggu gave up and wanted to try and point out the werewolves. I don't think they're Mafia either... but that doesn't mean they're not wolves.

O.o That must be a record on fewest posts I've had to make to get a scum to claimXD Anyway, he's at L-1 right now, and obviously our lynch for the day(don't let him fool you into keeping him alive, it only hurts us), but I think we should wait to hear everyone's opinions before we hammer. I'd like to hear from everyone and all before we go to night for sure.

At first I thought we could morph Greggu into a "phone-a-friend" but then anything he had to say would just be mindgamin' and really, really difficult to read the truth.

Anyway, I'm willing to hammer, but only after people have spoken.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

oh wow... I really don't know what to say to that.

Delvro, I hope you understand what you're trying to get us to do. You're basically asking us to trust our enemy, which isn't going to happen. Mafia and Werewolves are both threats to town. Not just wolves. Town and Mafia are not a team, to take out the wolves. Trusting you isn't going to happen, especially now that we know you're mafia.

Delvro dies tonight. I'll cast the hammer vote, if nobody else does, Thursday evening. That should give everyone plenty of time to speak up and give their opinions.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Eric, if you could, it'd be great to hear your opinion before the day phase is over. If nothing else, just read this http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8923545&postcount=223

If you just want a reason for why Delvro's about to die, that's a good answer, even though there's a lot before that too.

 

[Tandora]

oh wow... I really don't know what to say to that.

Delvro, I hope you understand what you're trying to get us to do. You're basically asking us to trust our enemy, which isn't going to happen. Mafia and Werewolves are both threats to town. Not just wolves. Town and Mafia are not a team, to take out the wolves. Trusting you isn't going to happen, especially now that we know you're mafia.

Delvro dies tonight. I'll cast the hammer vote, if nobody else does, Thursday evening. That should give everyone plenty of time to speak up and give their opinions.

I agree that we should hammer Delvro. Better to get a guaranteed Mafia now and try to start day 1 out right than possibly (or even probably) lynch a townie instead. Every scum that we know we can get, we should. I would hammer now, but will respect the call to let everyone speak.

I'm inclined to think May is town because she got so heated up during Day 1's debates. Still not sure about Xiivii or Ronike. I tend to think one is town and one is mafia/wolf, I'm just not good enough to tell which is which yet. I'm suspicious how fast Matt tried to FOS May and me. Could he be bussing his Mafia friend? Since Greg came clean, this is a wonderful opprotunity for his scum friends to clean their slates.

TBH, I'm completely doubting my ability to tell scum from town. I had pegged Greg as the seer since he was focussing on wolves so much. I thought he was trying to hint that he could find wolves which is why I made my post of "should I guess your role?"

I forget do Mafia have specific roles in this game? Or are they all goons? If they were all goons, that would seem to suck since they don't get night kills any more.

 

[Mayling]

I'm inclined to think May is town because she got so heated up during Day 1's debates. Still not sure about Xiivii or Ronike. I tend to think one is town and one is mafia/wolf, I'm just not good enough to tell which is which yet. I'm suspicious how fast Matt tried to FOS May and me. Could he be bussing his Mafia friend? Since Greg came clean, this is a wonderful opprotunity for his scum friends to clean their slates.

I thought Matthew was a little suspicious because of that too. >.< but I didn't want to FOS a FOS.

If you look at how he words his statements, it just looks like he's trying to bus Greg and put suspicion on others.

Also, Mafia don't get a night kill. They are just goons.

 

[Ronike]

Tandora, you aren't clearing may for getting heated, that makesno sense. You have cleared her because she's your sis, iirc. This is what I meantby leave your baggage at the door.

 

[Mayling]

I love Tanny

Tandora, you aren't clearing may for getting heated, that makesno sense. You have cleared her because she's your sis, iirc. This is what I meantby leave your baggage at the door.

If you're going to de-validate anyone has anything to say by saying "oh you guys know each other, that's why you're defending each other " it's a lousy tactic, and I'm calling you out on it right now cause I'm getting tired of it, and frankly, I think you're using it as a tactic to get innocents' opinions nulled. (It's either that, or I think at this point you're intentionally acting like an ***, so when you get voted off and if you flip townie, you can be like "nanner nanner you guys suck." like. seriously. that's what I think it is.)

It would help if Tandora could point to specific things she noticed that would help clear me as townie. Instead of telling her that you tried to null her opinion by saying she's clearing me cause we're sisters. We play with each other in aim ALL THE TIME... not only are we used to going after each other, we're used to reading each other. After all, you didn't say much when we attacked each other for reading each other's reads... (i.e, the time I said s2 stuck out as scum because he defended you) ... why should thinking someone is townie be different?

Frankly, I'm glad Tandora mentioned the argument, and that she saw something from it. I refuse to believe the people who called it a "no u" argument. There had to be something somewhere in that argument that indicated Ronike's or my alignment, whether it be pro-town or anti-town.

 

[Cello_Marl]

Welcome to the game, Mentosman. Don't want to make you feel unwelcome.

Apparently, everyone is misinterpreting what I was talking about when I said "terminology" in my last post. I thought it was clear from the quotes I posted with it, but I guess not.

I was talking about the "terminology" of "OMGUS" and "Bandwagon", not his use of wolf. By arguing "jokingly" over what the name of the cause of the reason of Tom's vote was, it took off any pressure that might have built up on him.

Confusing? That's probably why he did it.

It's not the only time he's tried to dissuade attention to himself. He was also the person who mentioned the point about it being easy to target vocal players. And why wouldn't he say it?
It's an entirely valid point. We should have been talking about the lurkers.

But it also stopped any discussion of him.

Xiivi disappeared for days then reappeared. He couldn't be a scum because he was the one that brought it up as a valid point. This is a very WIFOMy argument, and I'm sure it would be dismissed as such.

So anyone who tried to call him out on that would have their arguments dismissed too.
Just like he tried to do at the beginning.

Mayling said that she didn't want to FoS Tom immediately after he FoSed her or Tandora.
I have to wonder why. It's not a scum tell, or at least I don't think so. But, she felt hesitation. That hesitation probably spawned from Xiivi's one liners about Delvro and myself.

Suddenly, it's suspicious to voice suspicions.

Don't be intimidated. If you feel someone says something suspicious, call them out on it.
Just like I did with Xiivi. Just like Xiivi did to FrozenFlame. Just like Raptor did to May and Tandora. I was timid about it before, but now I don't see any reason why I should be.

Delvro seemed pretty scummy, even before his self-incrimination. If I were scum, I would have said one of my own scummates in my own ramblings to mindgame people like Raptor.
That's not an insult, but you can see the hesitancy Delvro caused in him. Knowing Delvro, I think it's possible he would have included one person, but I doubt he would have done both. It really just depends on what an IC scummate and he might have talked about.

The only thing that makes me NOT think he and Delvro aren't scummates or playing off of each other is the last minute fixation Delvro had on Xiivi. I just don't know enough about Xiivi's scum play to know if he'd set that up with Delvro.

On the note of Delvro's posts, we should probably ignore all the ones after and including his self-claim.

Oh, does anyone know if Marshy worships the RNG like Tom? Or would he be more inclined to put at least 1 experienced player with each group?

 

[Ronike]

I asked him a while ago and he said it was completely randomized.

 

[Tandora]

Tandora, you aren't clearing may for getting heated, that makesno sense. You have cleared her because she's your sis, iirc. This is what I meantby leave your baggage at the door.

LOL. You do love to make everything "****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't". If I say "I think someone who happens to be related to me is town" then I am letting my personal feelings take over. If I don't then I'm scum lurking.

If I say "I think someone I previously know is town" then I am letting my personal feelings take over. If I don't then I'm scum lurking.

You're trying way to hard to point too many FOS at too many people. I"m getting the vibe from you that you like to make yourself a huge presence so people will be afraid to go after you because it is way too easy to turn their words against them.

If I was going to let familial baggage weigh me down, I would have jumped in during the crapstorm that was the "no u" argument. Instead, I backed down because I was afraid to become part of an internet argument. I'm sure everyone here has heard how winning something like that is like winning the special olympics. And for those who haven't, the punchline is you lost anyway.

I stated what I was thinking and admitted my sense motive sucks and in fact failed with Greg. I honestly thought he was the seer. In retrospect, I can see how it was more mafia scum trying to go after the other dangerous faction. So, god forbid, I actually learned something from day one. =O

And May, I appreciate you defending me, but that kinda supports Ronike's point. Is my little sis scum too and trying to eliminate her sis? I can be an easy target because I tend to act guilty regardless of the truth and you know that. Now I've got my eye on you. o.O

 

[Ronike]

And Mayling, seriously, if Tandora's point about you being cleared because "you got all fired up in the day 1 arguments", why am I not clear? Because that's not enough information to clear someone, neither you or me. And look, you can say she isn't just clearing you because you are her sister, but on some level she is, even if she isn't doing it consciously, same as you are. Its human instinct: in a sea of strangers, you are much more likely to trust someone you know. I'm just trying to point it out to you so you don't let it bog you or your sister down.

And I can already tell you are going to get outraged by me continuing to say you are doing this so here, I challenge you this: tell me in what way getting "heated up" should clear you and why it should clear you and not me. Seriously, either of you, Mayling or Tandora, go for it.

 

[Mayling]

Tanny, I've defended or supported just about everyone this game.

And how in the whole does defending you result in trying to eliminate you?

Although it would be interesting/helpful if you could elaborate on why you thought I was pro-town. Unless if it's just a gut feeling, which is okay, imo, but you should say so.